The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: SuddenDeath on December 17, 2008, 11:30:50 pm



Title: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SuddenDeath on December 17, 2008, 11:30:50 pm
It's speculation time!

I know we can just discard things like these as story weaknesses, or say "it's just a game, no use rambling on about it" or some such. However, I think that using our imaginations to go deeper into the SC universe can be good fun, and thus I look forward to your ideas! :)


So... one of the things I'm wondering about: (I used the search function, but haven't seen anything quite similar)

The Dnyarri slave empire lasted for what, 2000 or 3000 years? This would mean that the Milieu races were mentally compulsed for a VERY long time...
As the Dnyarri's reign reached its end, the Ur-Quan and other slave races rebelled... with great hatred toward their masters. So, the slaves apparently had enough free will (even if they could not act upon it) to hate the Dnyarri and desire freedom, even though they never had it in their lives (and neither did tens of generations of their ancestors... although how many varies according to each race's lifespan).

Firstly, the Dnyarri conquer the Sentient Milieu.

During the first few years everyone who's mentally compulsed harbors a secret hatred towards them. Then another generation is born... a generation that never knew freedom, whose parents and all acquaintances are themselves constantly under mental compulsion, and these children are themselves mind-controlled basically since the day they are born. They have no opportunity to lead a normal life, to have a normal education, etc. In fact, as the parents are mind-controlled, they are probably completely uncapable to tell their children about freedom, to utter a single word against their masters, or to transfer their hatred of the Dnyarri to the children. So, the children grow up around the Dnyarri, who can mold (brainwash) them as they wish, and those who remember what it was to be free can do nothing about it.

And so it goes on for generations, until freedom itself is forgotten. All that exists in the lives of the slaves is the Dnyarri. They are a fact of life to the slaves, and the slaves' hatred is long gone. Only mindless obedience remains.

This seems to me as the logical course, even in a much shorter period of such total psychic enslavement... and yet, as UQM canon tells us, it wasn't so.

The slaves didn't forget... far from it. They never surrendered to their fate. An obvious example of this is when Kzer-Za (the person) gains a few brief moments of freedom, and tells all the Ur-Quan the way to break free, they all immediately do this, and don't hesitate a moment to kill any Dnyarri in the vicinity.

So, 2 or 3 thousand years of the most perfect dictatorship weren't enough to brainwash the slaves into total submission. How is this possible?

The only explanation that occurs to me is that the Dnyarri's control was far from perfect, even before the end was close (when they were supposedly getting lazy and sloppy). Apparently, those who were born as slaves did have a chance to learn from their ancestors, and their unbroken spirit managed to survive for thousands of years. This required relatively lengthy periods of either total freedom or something not far from it.

This brings to mind the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za. They were genetically engineered to be bureaucrats, administrators, and - perhaps most importantly - scientists. Now, if I remember correctly, the Umgah who were fully controlled by the neo-Dnyarri came off as quite dumb. They couldn't make jokes, and spoke like zombies. This doesn't seem good for scientific thinking.

It seems that, to a point, scientific thinking requires free thinking to really work. This requires the Dnyarri to somewhat loosen their leash on the Kzer-Za researchers.

People under total compulsion seem to only be capable only of the most basic tasks - for instance, eat, move or kill. Anything more complex requires a certain amount of individual drive, of free thought independent of the Dnyarri.

This loosening of control seems to make sense if we take into account the Dnyarri's full character. In addition to the will to dominate, they are also:
- ambitious
- somewhat lazy

and, maybe most importantly - greedy.

The Dnyarri had at their disposal 7+ races of perfectly obedient zombies. They obey their masters' bidding without question, and in the beginning, this is good. However, the Dnyarri want more, and dumb grunts no longer completely satisfy them. Improvement is required, and for this the Dnyarri need the slaves to show initiative. It also seems likely that the Dnyarri were, for all their intelligence, scientifically quite underdeveloped. Rather than absorbing the wealth of knowledge from their slaves, the lazy Dnyarri let the slaves do it all for them. This required some substantial loosening of control on the part of the Dnyarri. The loosening slowly proceeded to such an extent that the slaves were fully capable to communicate their discontent to each other, which soon spelled disaster for the masters.

---------------------------------

Well, I tried to answer my own questions, but I feel the answer is still somewhat incomplete :P
Do you have any theories on this? Please, share! ;D


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SweetSassyMolassy on December 18, 2008, 02:43:44 am
Hmmm, interesting question. One problem is that we're forced to take it from the human point of view, where something imposed over several generations is theoretically implemented into the next generation, forgetting what was formerly part of the race.  This doesn't necessarily apply to Milleu races, but let's just assume that it does.

I don't know if anywhere in the code it mentions the extent of the Dnyarri's power, and if the mind control was strong enough to eliminate self-awareness. If this wasn't the case then there's the argument of whether being self-aware makes one naturally desire freedom.

The other side of it was the way the Excrutiator worked. Suppose one Ur-Quan for some reason felt enough pain to be free from the Dnyarri for a second, would the natural course of events lead to them creating a pain device, freeing more Ur-Quan, etc.

My opinion is that 2000-3000 years (or however many drahn) isn't as large of a timescale for Milleu races compared to human time. I mean look at the Doctine of "Now and Forever". I'm sure that the Ur-Quan were powerless to the Dynarri, but at the same time desired their freedom, almost like a multiple personality, but the Dynarri is stronger.  They probably were forced to live with it until they stumbled into a way to free themselves.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on December 18, 2008, 01:04:36 pm
About the passing generations and hatred - look at the Mycon - they have genetic memory to the full extent of the term .
Another point is the mental compultion - the Kzer-Za researchers - in the game , if you come to neo-Dnyarri unprepared , you find yourself far away in the middle of hostile sphere of influence . If the compultion could reach this far , the Talking Pet would not need any "plans" to re-take control of the Ur-Quan , he would just "ask" to bring him closer to the events . On this basis I think Dnyarri could seed an imperative for a research and leave the scientists to it , as flying the ship and commanding a large crew needs fair brain power , not unlike any research .
This being said , when a researcher was busy developing , free of control , if he came into great enough pain , the compultion would brake , and as expected time period did not pass , window of free will would occur . Being beurocrats , Kzer-Za could protocol this observation for the next occurance of free will , without being checked - Dnyarri's ego would prevent it from admitting to self's mistake and laziness would take care for the lack of checking . Dying individuals would be free of control as well , and thus have pretty extended window of opportunity to leave messages to next generations of rebellion researchers .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Terrell on December 18, 2008, 09:36:13 pm
Aren't the Dynarri also notoriously lazy?  Don't know if I saw it in the UQM version or the original PC version, but I think one of the Ur-Quan sub-races (probably the Kohr-Ah) mentions that the Dynarri over the course of years became somewhat lax in their control over the Milieu.  The researcher Kzer-Za was actually tasked with studing the mental damage caused by long-term Dynarri compulsion, in his studies he discovered that when a slave died the Dynarri had to disconnect from the slave or the Dynarri would die too, and that excruciating pain would also force the Dynarri to disconnect.  During a moment where the Dynarri had let him (Kzer-Za) have some free thought he injured himself mortally, and during those remaining seconds of his life, he broadcast the secret to defeating the Dynarri to the remainder of the Ur-Quan.

The Dynarri's laziness in their control over the Milieu races, particularily the Ur-Quan (the race most vulnerable to psychic manipulation), led to their undoing.  The Dynarri having researchers determinine how to deal with the mental damage caused by long term compulsion, put Kzer-Za in position to discover the secret to defeating the Dynarri.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on December 18, 2008, 10:43:13 pm
Aren't the Dynarri also notoriously lazy?  Don't know if I saw it in the UQM version or the original PC version, but I think one of the Ur-Quan sub-races (probably the Kohr-Ah) mentions that the Dynarri over the course of years became somewhat lax in their control over the Milieu.  The researcher Kzer-Za was actually tasked with studing the mental damage caused by long-term Dynarri compulsion, in his studies he discovered that when a slave died the Dynarri had to disconnect from the slave or the Dynarri would die too, and that excruciating pain would also force the Dynarri to disconnect.  During a moment where the Dynarri had let him (Kzer-Za) have some free thought he injured himself mortally, and during those remaining seconds of his life, he broadcast the secret to defeating the Dynarri to the remainder of the Ur-Quan.

The Dynarri's laziness in their control over the Milieu races, particularily the Ur-Quan (the race most vulnerable to psychic manipulation), led to their undoing.  The Dynarri having researchers determinine how to deal with the mental damage caused by long term compulsion, put Kzer-Za in position to discover the secret to defeating the Dynarri.

I think the Melnorme give that information


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Terrell on December 18, 2008, 10:46:16 pm
Aren't the Dynarri also notoriously lazy?  Don't know if I saw it in the UQM version or the original PC version, but I think one of the Ur-Quan sub-races (probably the Kohr-Ah) mentions that the Dynarri over the course of years became somewhat lax in their control over the Milieu.  The researcher Kzer-Za was actually tasked with studing the mental damage caused by long-term Dynarri compulsion, in his studies he discovered that when a slave died the Dynarri had to disconnect from the slave or the Dynarri would die too, and that excruciating pain would also force the Dynarri to disconnect.  During a moment where the Dynarri had let him (Kzer-Za) have some free thought he injured himself mortally, and during those remaining seconds of his life, he broadcast the secret to defeating the Dynarri to the remainder of the Ur-Quan.

The Dynarri's laziness in their control over the Milieu races, particularily the Ur-Quan (the race most vulnerable to psychic manipulation), led to their undoing.  The Dynarri having researchers determinine how to deal with the mental damage caused by long term compulsion, put Kzer-Za in position to discover the secret to defeating the Dynarri.

I think the Melnorme give that information

You might be right.  It's been a while since I've bought information from the Melnorme.  I usually only buy technology and fuel from them when I play and get the Deep Child info from the Mycon.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Shiver on December 20, 2008, 06:06:21 am
So, 2 or 3 thousand years of the most perfect dictatorship weren't enough to brainwash the slaves into total submission. How is this possible?

My guess is that it has to do with the Ur-Quan's territorial instincts. Think about it. The Ur-Quan you meet in SC2's game are so territorial that they hate being on the same ship as each other. Each individual Ur-Quan must have naturally developed a loathing for their Dnyarri masters in a way that successive generations of human mind-slaves in that same position would not. So although the Ur-Quan were the Dnyarri's best slaves, they were also the most dangerous if left unchecked.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: psydev on December 22, 2008, 06:05:28 am
It may be that the dnyarri kept the ur-quan on a loose leash. Didn't Kzer-Za send out a message to everyone that pain interrupted the dnyarri's control, and that ur-quan who received the message grabbed the nearest vial of acid or broken glass and hurt themselves in order to get to the nearest dnyarri and crush him? It may be that the Ur-quans had sufficient autonomy to think certain things and even to do certain things fast enough before the dnyarri could respond or notice that something is out of the ordinary.
Once the pain was consistent, the dnyarri couldn't re-establish control.

The Dnyarri was probably in the habit of suppressing any sort of independent thoughts in Ur-Quan that they were "seriously considering" but that a small amount of independent thoughts below the surface were always there. The Dnyarri slavemasters just had to prune them before they got out of hand.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Lukipela on December 22, 2008, 12:12:20 pm
It may be that the dnyarri kept the ur-quan on a loose leash. Didn't Kzer-Za send out a message to everyone that pain interrupted the dnyarri's control, and that ur-quan who received the message grabbed the nearest vial of acid or broken glass and hurt themselves in order to get to the nearest dnyarri and crush him? It may be that the Ur-quans had sufficient autonomy to think certain things and even to do certain things fast enough before the dnyarri could respond or notice that something is out of the ordinary.
Once the pain was consistent, the dnyarri couldn't re-establish control.

Since Red isn't here I'll post the relevant quote instead.

Quote from: Melnorme
The Ur-Quan named Kzer-Za was a Green, a researcher specializing in repairing the mental damage
inflicted by long-term exposure to the Dnyarri's psychic compulsion.
By this point in history, the Dnyarri had grown lax in their dominance
and on occasion accidentally permitted their slaves moments of self-direction.
Kzer-Za was able to use those few scattered minutes to compose a theory.
From its observations, Kzer-Za realized that when a slave died
the Dnyarri `disconnected' from the slave's mind, lest it too be dragged down to death.
Further, the Ur-Quan scientist uncovered the fact that when a slave underwent great pain
the Dnyarri temporarily disconnected -- but that the degree of pain had to be extreme, nearly lethal.
Kzer-Za chose its moment carefully -- it waited until it was near an open transmission unit.
Then, in a short moment of mental freedom, the Ur-Quan injected itself with a dose of acidic poison
sending incredible waves of pain through its long body.
In the few moments before its death, Kzer-Za was able to wrest control of the transmitter
to send word of its discovery across the planet, and into space as well.
Before the Dnyarri knew what was happening
Ur-Quan everywhere were hacking at their own bodies with chunks of glass, burning themselves horribly
doing anything that would give them the few seconds of freedom necessary to find the nearest Dnyarri
and crush the bleating creature.

So basically the *Dnyarri got lazy and started allowing their slaves some uncontrolled minutes here and there. But they usually kept them on a tight leash.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: psydev on December 23, 2008, 10:21:50 am
Quote
So basically the *Dnyarri got lazy and started allowing their slaves some uncontrolled minutes here and there. But they usually kept them on a tight leash.

I guess it depends what you mean by tight leash. I imagine controlling millions of minions would be fairly effort-intensive.
The question in my mind is, while it's clear that ur-quans had a few minutes of freedom of action here and there, did they have freedom of thought in other times? Or maybe they had the stirrings of thought in their subconscious but were punished with psychic pain if they thought something too extreme like "I hate dnyarri" -- something that might turn into action?





Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Lukipela on December 23, 2008, 01:42:07 pm
I guess it depends what you mean by tight leash.

Of course this is all open to interpretation, but I read

Quote
By this point in history, the Dnyarri had grown lax in their dominance
and on occasion accidentally permitted their slaves moments of self-direction.

To indicate that they were usually not allowed any self-direction, i.e independent thought. Of course, self-direction might just mean control over their body, but

Quote
Kzer-Za was able to use those few scattered minutes to compose a theory.

seems to indicate that when not allowed self-direction, Kzer-Za couldn't even think. Otherwise, nothing would have stopped him from figuring this out whilst being under control.

As an explanation, it is possible that Dnyarri mind control simply suppresses the self, causing the victim to become a thoughtless drone, who is then very receptive to commands. Essentially, being turned into a non-sentient but highly advanced robot.

Quote
I imagine controlling millions of minions would be fairly effort-intensive.

Considering that a single Dnyarri took over all the Umgah, they might be fairly powerful. and once they'd established themselves as masters, I imagine their population rapidly grew.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on December 23, 2008, 05:47:42 pm
Quote
Considering that a single Dnyarri took over all the Umgah
Heh , I sometimes think it could be just another joke , like "let's pretend we're all under control"


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Lukipela on December 29, 2008, 12:30:57 pm
In regards to the original topic, I think Shiver makes a good point. The Ur-Quan probably only tolerate eachother during mating season, they had to work hard to build a civilisation. That kind of anthipathy on a basic subconcious level is probably hard to erase.

Another possibility is that Ur-Quan pupae weren't under as much scrutiny as adult Ur-Quan. They might have had enough time without control to learn basic language and functions (a slave that doesn't understand what you want is pretty worthless, then you have to physically guide them each step of the way). During that time I'm sure they'd have learnt to resent the Dnyarri.

A third possibility has to do with punishment. Kzer-Za figured out that the Dnyarri withdrew their control while punishing slaves by causing intense pain. The Dnyarri seem like the kind who'd enjoy causing pain just for the sake of it. So most Ur-Quan might well have had plenty of free time being while being punished, which would be enough to foster quite a bit of resentment.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Waylander on January 05, 2009, 06:26:32 am
I cant remember enough from the game to substantiate this but is it possible that the Ur-Quan have genetic memory? I dont remember it being said in any of the conversations that they looked at records or anything like that (I know, just because they didnt say it isnt proof)

This would sort of explain why they still maintained a feeling of hatred towards the Dnyarri after generations of enslavement and would also explain why years after the defeat of the dnyarri it is still such a traumatic experience for them. All Ur-Quan 'know' what it was like to be under the terrible control of the Dnyarri.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on January 07, 2009, 01:44:36 am
As an explanation, it is possible that Dnyarri mind control simply suppresses the self, causing the victim to become a thoughtless drone, who is then very receptive to commands. Essentially, being turned into a non-sentient but highly advanced robot.

It is explained in the game that the one being controlled feels like he is sleeping. In full control, slaves have no idea what is going on.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SilencerNate on January 07, 2009, 08:14:30 pm
You answered your question already.  There's no info on exactly how long an Ur-Quan's lifespan exists.  For all we know, a typical lifespan for them might last 5,000 years.  Their culture certainly is highly evolved, and in typical games/sci-fi, the more evolved races tend to have longer lifespans, and thus would make sense.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 07, 2009, 08:58:28 pm
You answered your question already.  There's no info on exactly how long an Ur-Quan's lifespan exists.  For all we know, a typical lifespan for them might last 5,000 years.  Their culture certainly is highly evolved, and in typical games/sci-fi, the more evolved races tend to have longer lifespans, and thus would make sense.

And the Ur-Quan can't possibly be so long-lived -- the Kohr-Ah line when they first talk to The Captain when he has the neo-Dnyarri is "We sense... something... something ancient... a sickly smell... a chilling wind. My ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind but I cannot understand their words. This feeling... a memory? It sickens us, and for the first time in our lives, for the first time in generations... We fear."

Quote from Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end? (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=3963.0).


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SilencerNate on January 07, 2009, 09:40:28 pm
While its true that they are clearly not immortals, and do eventually die, keep in mind the timeline. 
The Dnyarri enslavement was around 19,000 - 17,000 BC1.  Now we know (fairly certain anyway) that all of the brown Ur-Quan were no more.  Whether they were killed off by the Black/Green forced by the Dnyarri, or died off naturally is unknown. 
However, assuming that a typical life is 5,000 years, the first generation of Black/Green Ur-Quan very well could have been been told by a few Brown Ur-quan of past history.  In fact, it would be hard-pressed to imagine that they were not able to, even under the control of the Dnyarri, especially with the implications you've made that they have a form of genetic communication.
The events of SC2 is 2155.  There's a big gap of 15,000 years that would account for the "ancestors" that the Kohr-Ah speak of on first meeting the captain with a Dnyarri on board.

However, this is purely speculation and theory, and just my personal idea of the Ur-Quan.  I personally believe they have very long lives, and until canon says otherwise (and my numbers match up) its


1 http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/scwc/timeline.shtml


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Lukipela on January 09, 2009, 05:00:15 pm
It is explained in the game that the one being controlled feels like he is sleeping. In full control, slaves have no idea what is going on.

Can you source this? It sounds familiar, but I can't find the quotes. Not doubting you, just curious.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Tiberian on January 09, 2009, 07:14:36 pm
When the captain is controlled by the Dnyarri and has flown into Ur-Quan space, he explains to the Ur-Quan, what the mental compulsion felt like. He for example says that it felt like he was sleeping, and the Ur-Quan says it sounds all too familiar.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Lukipela on January 09, 2009, 07:21:46 pm
That's why I didn't find it, I was looking at Ur-Quan and Melnorme dialogues. Thank you.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Vindicator on February 20, 2009, 01:21:09 am
Having the Kzer-Za scientists operating more slowly and ploddingly because of mind-control would also explain the slow technological development or even technological stasis that appears to be extant in this section of the galaxy - another mystery of the Star Control universe, at least for me. After all, despite being spacefaring for thousands of years, the Ur-Quan do not have that much of a technological advantage over their own thralls, or most Alliance races such as the humans. On the other hand, it might be the case that there is a technological plateau that most spacefaring species reach, that only the Precursors have transcended.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on February 21, 2009, 05:56:24 pm
It also has to do with the fact that the Chenjesu were super-technologicians (or whatever you call them) by nature. Kind of a stroke of luck. IIRC, no race before the Chenjesu had even been a challenge to the Ur-Quan. This quadrant in general - location of the Precurors' final actions (including the Mycon), all the Alliance races having been given technological help by the Chenjesu, the trans-dimensional races and the creators of the Mmrnmhrm being interested in it for some reason, etc.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: psydev on February 22, 2009, 09:25:51 am
I think the easy answer to this question is, the Ur-Quan were well liked by the Dnyarri because they were easy to use compulsion on, but were at the same time very useful. I think that the Dnyarri had to dumb down the races that they were controlling in order to make them subservient and passive, but the Ur-Quan were probably very receptive to manipulation which in turn allowed them the greater degree of freedom necessary to do science and fulfill other tasks for the Dnyarri.
(and probably why the Dnyarri annihilated the other races that they viewed as non-productive for their own ends).


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on February 23, 2009, 11:17:03 am
It also has to do with the fact that the Chenjesu were super-technologicians (or whatever you call them) by nature. Kind of a stroke of luck. IIRC, no race before the Chenjesu had even been a challenge to the Ur-Quan. This quadrant in general - location of the Precurors' final actions (including the Mycon), all the Alliance races having been given technological help by the Chenjesu, the trans-dimensional races and the creators of the Mmrnmhrm being interested in it for some reason, etc.

I don't recall it being mentioned that the Chenjesu were the Ur-Quan's only real challenge; in fact, I think there is some dialog stating that the Ur-Quan had dealt with many rebellions before by similar alliances as the one that formed in our sector, and that in the end the Ur-Quan always emerged victorious, even if it did sometimes take a long time for the inevitable victory to occur. Extrapolating from that, the only reason why they decided to speed things along with the Sa-Matra is because they had heard the hunting call of the Kohr-Ah, and knew that the resumption of the Doctrinal Conflict was drawing near and they could not afford to be distracted by a rebellious alliance. Note that they only used the Sa-Matra once, and once the Alliance of Free Stars was pacified, they withdrew without subjugating any of the neutral races to prepare for the Doctrinal Conflict.

However, it is a strange coincidence that there was so much late Precursor activity and other ancient history in our sector... Unless, perhaps, every sector was like that before it was enslaved or exterminated.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Waylander on February 27, 2009, 04:17:46 pm
You answered your question already.  There's no info on exactly how long an Ur-Quan's lifespan exists.  For all we know, a typical lifespan for them might last 5,000 years.  Their culture certainly is highly evolved, and in typical games/sci-fi, the more evolved races tend to have longer lifespans, and thus would make sense.

And the Ur-Quan can't possibly be so long-lived -- the Kohr-Ah line when they first talk to The Captain when he has the neo-Dnyarri is "We sense... something... something ancient... a sickly smell... a chilling wind. My ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind but I cannot understand their words. This feeling... a memory? It sickens us, and for the first time in our lives, for the first time in generations... We fear."

Quote from Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end? (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=3963.0).

Thanks for that I had a feeling that someone had mentioned something that related to genetic memory but couldn't remember who it was.

If The Quans (black and green) have genetic memory of the Dynarri then it explains everything. They could remember being enslaved in the few moments in which they were free, even generations later which would sort of lead to their extreme response which allowed them to truly defeat the Dynarri.

It also if you think about it supports all the theories about why the Ur-Quans' philosophies (or Doctrines) came about. To someone with genetic memory they KNOW the fear the suffering and the agony of generations and generations of being enslaved and being forced to destroy all they had once cared about. How can you not feel pity for them. With our 'normal' memories we only have our own experiences to bother us, imagine if we had all the memories of our ancestors, all the wars the pain and the suffering of each and every of our predecessors, wouldn't that cause us to become insane? 

The Kohr-Ah's doctrine to 'cleanse' the galaxy of anything not Kohr-Ah is a sign of an unreasoning mind. The Kohr-Ah are literally insane from the experience of being enslaved and as such fight blindly to try and prevent it happening gain, to prevent themselves from being controlled again. While most of the races that the Kohr-Ah wish to wipe out cannot control them the Kohr-Ah cannot afford to make any kind of emotional attachments which would cause them pain if they were controlled again. (okay ill try and explain that a bit better)

*explanation* Losing friends because  you are forced to exterminate them  has got to be extremely painful. In the Ur-Quans case they were part of the Mileu and explored the galaxy with their other ally races. This leads me to believe that there were emotional links between the Ur-Quans and the members of the other races. (I remember that the Ur-Quans felt guilty for exterminating the races of the Mileu I cant remember where it was said so if anyone wants to dig that up I'd appreciate it). The Ur-Quans being forced to exterminate their friends by the Dynarri would be one of the worst kinds of pain imaginable. If the Ur-Quans have genetic memory that pain is eternal for them.

The Kzer-Za on the other hand are not insane with the memory but still fear the same result and as such anyone who threatens them, who doesn't submit to their rule is slave shielded. Not only does this prevent the Kzer-Za from being controlled it also means they don't have to suffer the guilt of genocide again.

I know that I REALLY pity the Ur-Quans'. While their actions are less than pure they have suffered horribly and if they can be reasoned with (and it wouldn't be easy, especially with the Kohr-Ah) I imagine that they could quite easily go back to their old exploration ways.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Terrell on March 08, 2009, 12:32:08 am
The Taalo were the only race that the Ur-Quan ever truly called "friend".  They were the only species where an Ur-Quan could be close to without the hunter inside them screaming "Kill the Interloper, rip out it's life."


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: JDA on March 21, 2009, 07:48:10 pm
Interesting question, SuddenDeath. ;)

Ignorant (or, if you prefer, "total newbie") as I am to the game, there are certainly various aspects I am just plain minssing regarding the species, the context, the methods and all kind of stuff many others may already know.


Still, my 2 cents on the subject:

You said:
And so it goes on for generations, until freedom itself is forgotten. All that exists in the lives of the slaves is the Dnyarri. They are a fact of life to the slaves, and the slaves' hatred is long gone. Only mindless obedience remains.
You are assuming you want freedom because you learned its value. To put it in another way, great as Plato's alegory may be, it is just one alegory for ONE concept/reasoning/thought: That who is used to see only shadows, will not recognize the object of which the shadow is cast.
You can however have other thoughts. E.g. being enslaved is contrary to your nature - give your nature the chance to break that chain and it will break, or, in this case, tell your mind you can be free and your mind will free itself.
Someone already gave you a good natural trait of the Ur-Quan to enforce what I've just said: their territorialism.

This is fiction: as long as it's coherent with itself, it's, well, coherent... ;D


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Soul Reaver on April 17, 2009, 12:45:48 am
I think the question that has to be asked is how the Ur-Quan mentally experienced their times of slavery.

If, for the Ur-Quan, being controlled feels just like being 'asleep', I don't think it would seem all that terrible.  There'd be a sickening sense of lost time, certainly, but if you are unable to comprehend your actions then I don't see how that would foster incredible hatred either, and would require either genetic memory (which I see little evidence of) or the conventional passing on of information.

But maybe that description is too imprecise.  Imagine, if you will, that you remained conscious of your actions and were still able to think (at least to some extent) about your actions... but were unable to control any of your actual physical faculties (speech, movement, anything else).  In this case, the control would feel like a living hell, your own body completely beyond your control.

I never really thought that the Dnyarri were all that great at 'reading minds' - they can CONTROL people/creatures, but they don't seem all that adept (or interested) in their private thoughts.  That would mean that feelings of hatred could fester amongst the Ur-Quan their entire lives, it's just that they cannot do anything about it.  Should they try during a moment of Dnyarri laxity, the Dnyarri would simply reassert control over the victim to stop them.

If you look at it that way, it all makes sense:
- Virtually all Ur-Quan would hate their masters, even if born under their control.  This is strengthened during times when the Ur-Quan are free to communicate with each other, but wouldn't be required.
- The Dnyarri wouldn't care about the thoughts of hatred in their slaves since they can just prevent any attack before it becomes a problem (and possibly because they do not or cannot read thoughts in the first place)
- The Dnyarri don't constantly mind-read (either can't or don't care) and so they don't catch out Kzer-Za's discovery, even IF it was made while under their control.
- Kzer-Za's discovery allows him to do the unexpected: prevent a Dnyarri from stopping him from doing something.  At a moment where control is lax, he enacts his fatal plan.  This allows him to disseminate information to all other Ur-Quan (somehow).
- The other Ur-Quan can receive this message (though not necessarily do anything about it) even if they are under Dnyarri control.  Those few that are not currently being controlled take action immediately, possibly freeing more Ur-Quan from control in so doing (either killing Dnyarri or hurting other Ur-Quan).  The effect rapidly snowballs.
- The Dnyarri are defeated

That model makes sense to me, but the fact that the game makes it sound like control feels like being 'asleep' sort of spoils the whole theory...


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on April 17, 2009, 05:11:13 am
I get the feeling that Dnyarri mind control works both ways, depending on how the controller itself feels like handling it. So in cases where the Dnyarri is uninterested in their subject or doesn't feel like paying much attention to them, they implant a powerful suggestion <Seek death at the hands of your enemy!> and just let them get on with whatever that task entails, which probably results in a sleep-like state and lost time. However, in cases where they take a personal interest in their subject (and the Ur-Quan, as their favored slaves, would certainly fit the bill, and this also seems to happen to the Umgah), then the control may instead result in lengthy stretches of being trapped in your own mind, unable to control your body. Hence the dichotomy between what the Captain experiences, and what the Ur-Quan experienced.

Of course, this could also be a result of the Ur-Quan's known sensitivity to the Dnyarri's powers; they are able to remain conscious throughout the duration, while less sensitive races perceive it as if they were asleep the entire time. If that's the case, how would the Ur-Quan know about other races being in a sleep-like state? They found out that their experience was unique through communication with the other enslaved Milleu races.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 10, 2009, 01:08:22 am
As a little brain teaser, has anyone thought what would have happened if Kohr-Ah had arrived before Kzer-za?

I mean, as  Kohr-Ah don't use other slaves, united Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm fleet would have had the change to make a defense. The sizes between Kohr-Ah and Kzer-za could have not been that much off (well, before the little bastards of Shofixti anyway) and as Kohr-Ah never retreat (Not canon as far as I know, but c'mon, huge cleansing force of the galaxy) to just recruit some local races to fight for them.

The conflict, if as bloody as Crucible of Sentience, would still mobilize the local sector, thus making them even more prepared for the future arrival of Kzer-za.

A little mind pondering mystery if you as me  ;D.



But I agree with analogy about the Dnyarri mind control. A species as Dnyarri (by the example from that little bastard who made Umgah not funny :/) it would seem that even thought super intelligent, their thoughts are usually cloudet by strong emotions and as such, it would be likely to hinder their mind control abilities.



Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Dabir on May 10, 2009, 10:56:09 am
An interesting situation indeed. Whilst the Kohr-Ah pick each sector clean of resources, they can never leave a war against a race with more numbers than they went in with, and will probably have at least a few less, even against the Umgah or Thraddash. Added to that they'd have started with the Druuge, Utwig, Supox, Burvixese and Gg rather than the relatively weak races, and once they encountered the ZFP the Chenjesu would likely hear about it, then the Mbots would hear about it, then they'd alert the Earthlings and the Yehat, the Yehat would bring the Shofixti, then the Arilou would turn up and they'd try to get the Umgah on-side, and so on... what you'd end up with is the Kohr-Ah vs everyone, rather than the Kohr-Ah vs the Kzer-Za. Since the first really serious races they'd come to are the Druuge and the Utwig, I don't fancy their chances.

And THEN maybe the Kzer-Za would turn up while everyone else was trying to resist cleansing - what would they do? On the one hand, 'everyone is dying must help'. On the other hand, 'they're killing Ur-Quan must stop'. And if they get a sudden attack of the stupid, 'who cares about what's going on over there other races must enslave'.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 10, 2009, 11:40:56 am
I think Kzer-Za would just retreat and wait for things to end one way or the other . And then deal with (and win) whoever is left . They are thinkers , beurocrats and know their numbers . They do not come to protect , they just need insurance of own species' safety .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 10, 2009, 12:20:25 pm
Indeed. If Kohr-Ah would had arrived before Kzer-za and started to blast around the starts, finally coming to towards the Alliance races, wich would mobilize and the start a war of defense. If we just simply change the dates of Ur-Quan arrivals, the Alliance would most likely defeat Kohr-Ah before Kzer-Za arrive (as they are +20 years off of each other). If not without internal events, the only option for Kzer-Za to defeat the Alliance would be the usage of Sa-Matra, as all the local races are already recruited into the Alliance.

Unless the Kohr-Ah suddenly come up with creative thinking and stay within Druuge-Traddash are of space and just enlarge their forces to a massive proportion wich then they  would use to attack the Alliance races, it looks like Alliance win-win situation.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on May 10, 2009, 12:40:03 pm
I don't think the Kohr-Ah would be defeated by the old Alliance. Remember that both Ur-Quan have had to deal with many alliances before, and have always prevailed.

I think the Battle Thralls were no more than 10% or so of the Kzer-Za's power (otherwise they might be tempted to revolt and join forces with the enemy). And perhaps they didn't even give all they had in the war, letting the Thralls do most of the hard work. So according to this little theory of mine, the Kzer-Za could defeat the old Alliance without any Thralls at all. And therefore the Kohr-Ah would have no problem there at all.

I think Kzer-Za would just retreat and wait for things to end one way or the other . And then deal with (and win) whoever is left . They are thinkers , beurocrats and know their numbers . They do not come to protect , they just need insurance of own species' safety .

I'd say both subraces would stop all of their offensives against other races, and start the second Doctrinal War. Actually, that's just what happened - there are still quite a few free races in the neighborhood in SC2. The Kzer-Za just made sure to wrap things up just before the Kohr-Ah's arrival.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 10, 2009, 02:38:38 pm
The main problem is, we don't know. We don't know the real sizes of their respective fleets, we can only theorize at best.

As Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm were able to form a defense against the Kzer-Za before they started to gather local Pôkemon's for battle. Quote from Ultronomicon "...only knowing that the Mycon's unique Podship technology greatly multiplied the sheer firepower potential of the Ur-Quan forces, making them far more offensively powerful.".

This does give the conclusion that Battle Thralls had more power. As this was to already combined power.

Also I find no reason for Kzer-Za to hold back. The only thing that we know for certain they hold back was Sa-Matra, wich they we have a good reason to hold as both religious and cultural reasons. The whole ordeal gives the conclusion that it is the final resort, no reason to hold back before it.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SuddenDeath on May 10, 2009, 11:26:42 pm
See here (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4425.msg57745#msg57745) for many guesses on Alliance/Hierarchy/Kohr-Ah military strength. I also wrote a capital-sized post on the first page of that thread :)


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 11, 2009, 12:33:02 am
Yeah, it was pretty good, except you got a little side track with the humans.

According to numerous sources within the game, the human fleet was the backbone of the Alliance, fighting on multiple fronts. Meaning either that with the greater human industries, they made a huge number of warships or that these warships had an advantage to be so god damm useful.

I would say it's the first.


However, still. These are still all just speculation, not actual fact, as such we are not one step closer to the truth, but let's still go on, I like where this conversastion is going ^^.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 11, 2009, 03:08:45 am
For one, I think the Mycons would join the Kohr-Ah and promise to destroy all life in the galexy (including themselves), then they would attempt to revolt against the Kohr-Ah once they believed themselves to be powerful enough.

The Kohr-Ah would likely not win the war, simply because of the arrival of the Kzer-Za. They would stop attacking and turn their concentration to the doctrinal conflict. However, they would succeed in eliminating some races, namely the Druuge.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 11, 2009, 07:28:31 am
I think something important is being overlooked here: unlike the Kzer-Za, who attempt to approach and enslave the local races and loudly declare their intent to do so toward anyone who may be listening, the Kohr-Ah strike without warning at the heart of each species, wiping them out as swiftly as possible. The endgame death march is a perfect illustration of this in action, as none of the races know they are on the verge of being destroyed, and all are exterminated nearly instantly as soon as the Kohr-Ah arrive. And this is without using the Sa-Matra at all, since it's still parked in the middle of Ur-Quan space!

I don't think the second Doctrinal Conflict would have even occurred in our sector of the galaxy if the Kohr-Ah had arrived first. Their fleets would have advanced right around the region, merrily and swiftly stamping out each race the encountered, and since most races were unknown to each other at that time, few of them would have been any wiser that a threat of this magnitude even existed. By the time the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm would have been made aware of them, it would have been too late; the Druuge, Burvixese, Utwig, Supox, ZFP, and Thraddash would have all been exterminated by then, and they would have turned to them next (I suspect the ZFP would not have had time to warn anyone before they were wiped out, assuming the Chenjesu even knew of them before the war started). Maybe they would have gotten the word out to other known races, but this would have been their dying act and would have reached only a scattered few: Presumably the Yehat, Ilwrath, and Humans, possibly the Pkunk. The Ilwrath, Pkunk, and Humanity would have been wiped out before they could even mobilize to meet the threat in any significant way, and the demise of Earth would have ensured that the Arilou would stay out of the conflict. The Yehat may have been able to form an alliance with the races they were aware of: The Shofixti, VUX, and perhaps even the Mycon and Syreen. Meanwhile, the Kohr-Ah would have little trouble eliminating the isolated and unaware Androsynth, Umgah, and Spathi (with the demise of the Androsynth ensuring that the ORZ never become aware of our dimension). The final battle would have come down to the might of the Kohr-Ah armada versus a hastily assembled local alliance headed by the Yehat. Of that alliance, only the Yehat, VUX, and Mycon (assuming they joined, rather than try to appeal to the Kohr-Ah and get exterminated for their trouble) would have had significant combat forces.

The Shofixti would likely have been the first target, and Delta Gorno the site of a massive battle. However, after the alliance is driven into retreat, the outcome would have been the same as we all remember: the Shofixti cause their sun to turn supernova with their Precursor bomb rather than passing quietly into oblivion, resulting in the loss of 1/3 of the Kohr-Ah fleet. However, the Kohr-Ah would have pressed their advantage and pursued, intercepting and eliminating the Syreen hab-fleet before moving on to VUX space. Again the alliance would have made a valiant stand, but with the loss of two member races, as well as a significant portion of their warfleet at Delta Gorno, they would have been force to fall back yet again and the VUX would be exterminated. The Kohr-Ah would continue into Yehat space, and the last stand of the Starship Clans would have an unfortunate but predictable outcome. If the Mycon remained, they would be the last to fall.

The entire process would likely not take longer than 2 - 3 years.

The Kohr-Ah, triumphant, would have moved "northward" past Thraddash space for new prey, where they would have finally encountered the Kzer-Za, still attempting to enslave the sentients inhabiting that region of space, likely resorting to brutal subjugation using the Sa-Matra once they discovered the proximity of their brethren. The second Doctrinal Conflict would begin.

On the plus side, the enormous losses suffered by the Kohr-Ah at Delta Gorno would have resulted in the Kzer-Za emerging victorious, once again claiming the Sa-Matra as their prize, and this time declaring the superiority of their doctrine and forcing the Kohr-Ah to accept it as true. The Kohr-Ah, their worldview shattered, have no choice but to accept and join the enslavers in their mission, though they subtly attempt to undermine their authority by "accidentally" exterminating races when they resist. Nonetheless, this marks the end of the Eternal Doctrine, and the Path of Now and Forever is acknowledged as the superior and correct means to ensure that the Ur-Quan are never again made into slaves.

Aren't you glad things worked out the way that they did?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 11, 2009, 08:37:56 am
I would say, no :/....


But what we are forgetting is the Arilou. By the locations of Quasispace portals, we can concur that Arilou will most likely know about the Kohr-Ah threat and who knows what kind of scheme will those little green men do o ensure the future of human race.

Kinda short post to counter  your argument, but still.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 11, 2009, 09:06:24 am
The Arilou are not only dimentional travellers , but also live outside our time stream , meaning they not necessary depend on Q-space portals for knoledge . Melnorme also might sell some info on the matter . This said , I don't believe it would make any difference . I totally agree with Draxas , great post he has there .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 11, 2009, 11:40:26 am
Does not make a diffrence? If Arilou would warn Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm (or other close by races in that matter) during the Kohr-Ah invasion of Druuge, it would give them ample time to form a defense. We would need to subject ourselfs to believe that Kohr-Ah would most likely take the Druuge-Supox-Traddash route, as it was already part of Draxas post.

Arilou would warn both of them, they would mobilize during the few months that they have, they would call up the local races to aid them. By the time Kohr-Ah would arrive they would need to face a fleet of Broodhomes, X-Wings, Skiffs and propably Umgah vessels. If the Kohr-Ah would just simple try to overwhelm the Alliance forces, Broodhomes and X-fighters would most likely destroy them with their long range weapons and their superior tactics.

However, we have seen that Kohr-Ah have used tactics. It is aparrent by the Doctorine War between them and Kzer-Za. If they would have just simple overwhelmed them, the conflict in SC2 would be most likely much shorter, but with more devestating casualties. Thus we make the final point, if the alliance gathered in by Arilou manages to prolonge the war, who knows what tactic might Kohr-Ah use. The longer the war lasts, more races would be discovered and they would also contribute to the war.

This theory lasts on two factors. First, on the fact that Arilou can warn races before Kohr-Ah arrive as they excist out of our universe and on the fact that Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm can hold out. They withstood the Ur-Quan slave armada before humans, Yehat, Shofixti, Arilou or Syreen entered the war.


That, or Arilou would come up with something to protect the human race, THEY WILL ALWAYS COME UP WITH SOMETHING. Don't fuck with them.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 11, 2009, 06:27:20 pm
Does not make a diffrence? If Arilou would warn Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm (or other close by races in that matter) during the Kohr-Ah invasion of Druuge, it would give them ample time to form a defense. We would need to subject ourselfs to believe that Kohr-Ah would most likely take the Druuge-Supox-Traddash route, as it was already part of Draxas post.

Arilou would warn both of them, they would mobilize during the few months that they have, they would call up the local races to aid them. By the time Kohr-Ah would arrive they would need to face a fleet of Broodhomes, X-Wings, Skiffs and propably Umgah vessels. If the Kohr-Ah would just simple try to overwhelm the Alliance forces, Broodhomes and X-fighters would most likely destroy them with their long range weapons and their superior tactics.

There is a massive flaw in this assumption: The Arilou care nothing for any species other than Humanity. They would have no inclination to warn anyone else of the impending threat; they certainly didn't feel the need to do so when the Kzer-Za arrived, and only got involved with the Alliance of Free Stars once Earth became a member world. Before that, they were content to act in secret. There is no reason to assume they would behave differently in the face of the Kohr-Ah threat until it was a certainty that Humanity would be wiped out. Even then, their measures would probably consist of spiriting away a segment of Earth's population so that they could continue their work, not acting toward the altruistic (and futile) benefit of other races.

Quote
However, we have seen that Kohr-Ah have used tactics. It is aparrent by the Doctorine War between them and Kzer-Za. If they would have just simple overwhelmed them, the conflict in SC2 would be most likely much shorter, but with more devestating casualties. Thus we make the final point, if the alliance gathered in by Arilou manages to prolonge the war, who knows what tactic might Kohr-Ah use. The longer the war lasts, more races would be discovered and they would also contribute to the war.

I would expect their tactics when dealing with lesser races would be similar to the Kzer-Za's, but much more direct: Start with the least able to resist, head to their homeworld and attack without warning. Once the root of the species is eliminated, the stragglers can be picked off with ease. Once this task is done, move to the next closest race and repeat. However, I don't think the Kohr-Ah would divert their plans in the face of resistance like the Kzer-Za did against the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm. Unlike the Kzer-Za, they are not going to enslave other, weaker races to bolster their ranks; it is much more prudent for them to simply plow through the resistance and eliminate a stronger threat, than to allow them to survive somewhat longer and potentially cause greater troubles down the road.

I don't think Kohr-Ah tactics used in the Doctrinal Conflict are valid toward this discussion. Combat between the two Ur-Quan subraces is much more formalized and ritualized than the tactics each would use on a lesser race. The Kohr-Ah do not want to exterminate their brethren, merely to prove that their beliefs are superior through battle.

Quote
This theory lasts on two factors. First, on the fact that Arilou can warn races before Kohr-Ah arrive as they excist out of our universe and on the fact that Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm can hold out. They withstood the Ur-Quan slave armada before humans, Yehat, Shofixti, Arilou or Syreen entered the war.

As discussed above, neither suumption is valid. To recap: the Arilou only desire to preserve Humanity, and would not warn anyone else of the encroaching Kohr-Ah fleets. And the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm would not be able to turn the Kohr-Ah away like they did to the Kzer-Za: the Kzer-Za only retreated so that they could enslave other, more isolated races and convert them into battle thralls in order to bolster their strength for the coming conflict. The Kohr-Ah would use no such tactics, since they would not enslave other races.

Quote
That, or Arilou would come up with something to protect the human race, THEY WILL ALWAYS COME UP WITH SOMETHING. Don't fuck with them.

You're probably right. However, this solution is not likely to be quite so favorable toward the rest of the sentients in our region of the galaxy. The Arilou will keep enough of Humanity alive so that their work will not be in vain, but would probably not be at all averse to sacrificing any other race in the effort, and possibly even sacrificing much of our race as well.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Death 999 on May 11, 2009, 06:56:12 pm
I wonder how much scouting the Arilou actually do. They didn't try to deal with the Kohr-Ah or the Ur-Quan before the last moment.
But... as for the Ur-Quan, they were no existential threat to a peaceful race of humans. It was only after the humans decided to fight that the possibility was raised. And the Kohr-Ah? Well, they were decades away.
And with the second war, I'd say the Arilou kind of knew how it was going to work out. They would need to put out a lot more effort without the Kzer-Za there to provide a buffer and shield.

The question arises, how could the Arilou actually get everyone in gear in time? I'd say, bring special observers to observe the Kohr-Ah. Perhaps in action wiping out a civilization, if needed.

Then you'd have an up to 20 species combined force, more if the Burvix were capable of resistance or the Melnorme could be induced to join. Combined arms could do something serious to the Kohr-Ah, I think. Would they have ever faced a united force of this magnitude, with such quality scouting? I believe the Arilou are unique in the galaxy, and this would pretty much fall on them to make the difference.

As Draxas said, the Arilou don't care about any other race; but for purposes of this debate, supposing that it will take anything less than everyone on deck to take down the Kohr-Ah answers the question just as well.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 11, 2009, 09:39:59 pm
One thing I'd like to mention is that there are certainly some differences in the war with the Ur-Quan and the theoretical war with the Kohr-Ah. First and foremost, all races, even the Spathi, would fight to the death. This is because there is no reason to not fight to the death as your species will be exterminated anyways. Second, it has been demonstrated that the Utwig ships can be very effective against Kohr-Ah ships. It can be assumed that the Utwig would inflict some serious damage on the Kohr-Ah, though it wouldn't destroy them. After the extermination of the Umgah, many races would immediately start to mobilize and the Arilou would start their plans to keep the human race alive (they would probably take them away to safety instead of fighting). With the same hastily assembled Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm fleet, they would be able to hold off the Kohr-Ah long enough to allow other races to finish mobilizing. If they mobilized fast enough, they might rush over to help the Chenjesu. Otherwise, they might assemble an alliance or at least a pact to not attack each other until the Kohr-Ah threat is over. The main fighting races would likely be the Yehat and Spathi. Mycons would likely not fight until they could see clearly who would win, and would join the winning side.

Unlike in the Ur-Quan conflict, the Spathi would fight to the very end, simply because they want to live. The Yehat would do very well due to their superior tactics and their shields. The Yehat would also fight to the very end, since joining the Kohr-Ah will ultimately lead to their destruction anyways. The VUX and Yehat would let go of their differences for the conflict. The Androsynth would have some time to research in weapons technology further.

In essence, I don't think that the Alliance members would all be doomed from the start. Many would be eliminated, but not all of them for sure.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 11, 2009, 09:54:07 pm
For the sake of argument, let's say that the Arilou decided that the only solution to the Kohr-Ah problem was indeed a sector-spanning alliance. Mind you, this is already uncharacteristic; they have always advocated subterfuge and occlusion rather than violent action, and I still think they would be more likely to cut and run with a segment of Earth's population in order to continue their work or attempt to hide Humanity in some other way, rather than attempt to face the Kohr-Ah head on.

Considering where their interests lie, and which species they have relations with, I don't think the Arilou would even be aware of the extent of the Kohr-Ah's threat until the were already relatively close, probably heading towards or having just exterminated the Thraddash. This means that, despite anything else, the Druuge, Burvixese, Utwig, Supox, and possibly ZFP are already gone, and the Thraddash are either also finished or will not have time to adequately prepare and are a lost cause anyway. Supposing that all of the other races in the region are alerted to the threat and given the opportunity to mobilize against it (no matter how unlikely this may be) in time to meet the next thrust, presumably at Chenjesu / Mmrnhrm space.

The first major problem is that this is not the Alliance we're all familiar with. The Ilwrath fleet is even more of a joke now than it is during the events of both SC1 and 2; they were given significant technological upgrades by the Kzer-Za in order to make them passable battle thralls in the conflict, and they wouldn't have this technology in our alternate universe, making them little more than cannon fodder. The Orz remain disconnected from this conflict, as they are still unaware of our dimension, and so will play no part. Of the races that remain, few of them get along: Infighting is rampant among the Yehat and Pkunk, the Yehat and VUX, the Androsynth and Humans, the Spathi and Umgah (assuming the Spathi don't simply retreat to their worlds and hide as quietly as possible once the find out that the Ultimate Evil is actually real and on its way), the Syreen and VUX, the VUX and the Humans, the Ilwrath and everyone else, the Mycon and eveyone else. It is questionable whether all of these races will even join the alliance: the Mycon are as likely as not to work with others, and may even try to appeal to the Kohr-Ah (resulting in their early extermination), the Spathi may not be willing to fight until its too late and the Kohr-Ah are bearing down on them, the Androsynth and VUX may simply refuse to join because of a combination of their prejudices and not taking the threat seriously. Let us, however, assume the best case scenario, where everyone tries to function as a cohesive alliance to the best of their ability, and all potential remaining members join.

Our members races are: Arilou, Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm, Ilwrath, Pkunk, Humans, Shofixti, VUX, Yehat, Syreen, Mycon, Spathi, Umgah, and Androsynth.

The Kohr-Ah extermination fleet meets the alliance in battle at the fringes of Chenjesu / Mmrnhrm space, and the combined fleets attempt to coordinate cohesive tactics on short notice in their first true battle. The losses suffered by the Alliance are horrendous as they attempt to hold back a massive and well practiced extermination fleet, but somehow the lines hold and the Kohr-Ah are given pause  by the strength of the resistance. However, instead of trying to relentlessly push through the Alliance's lines, their mindset of striking first at the weak takes over as they realize that the entire sector's sentients have somehow joined forces against them. While a diversionary skirmishing force of Marauders continues to harass the alliance lines (which for the Kohr-Ah, is a huge number of ships), the bulk of the fleet breaks off and swiftly rampages through Umgah and Spathi space, eliminating both races. The alliance realizes its mistake too late, and struggles to redistibute its forces, but it's too late; emergency reinforcements arrive in the Vulpeculae stars and engage the Kohr-Ah fleet, but their resistance only inflicts token damage, and the Androsynth are exterminated.

With the loss of 3 member races in a short amount of time, the alliance is forced to reevaluate their tactics. The Kohr-Ah thrust into the newly opened gap in the Alliance lines, eliminating the Syreen hab-fleet with minimal effort before turning their attentions to the VUX. The Yehat arrive to reinforce the VUX lines, and through a combination of their battle prowess and Zex's tactics, the lines hold against the Kohr-Ah. However, this only serves to spread the Alliance thinner, and after leaving behind another skirmishing fleet on the fringes of VUX space, the Kohr-Ah divert to Mycon space, which is now somewhat isolated from the rest of the alliance. The Mycon battle to the last, but not enough reinforcements can be spared to support them, and they eventually fall.

Rather than attempt to penetrate the combined VUX - Yehat lines again, the Kohr-Ah fleet diverts back to Vulpeculae and makes a push toward the west, encountering fleets primarily composed of Human, Shofixti, and Pkunk ships. This time, the alliance is prepared, and a pitched battle ensues. Alliance reinforcements flood into the combat zone, but the Kohr-Ah recall their VUX - Yehat skirmishing fleet in response, creating a force that the Alliance simply cannot hold back. Losses are heavy on both sides, but eventually the day is lost. The Kohr-Ah sweep in towards Earth, then into Pkunk space, and then back around against the Ilwrath. All 3 races are destroyed despite stiff resistance.

This latest action drives a wedge between the alliance forces, isolating the Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm, and Arilou on one side, and the VUX, Yehat, and Shofixti on the other. The Arilou, realizing that all their work has come to naught, retreat en masse back to Quasispace, sealing the portal and abandoning the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm to their fate. Both races are brutally chushed between the Kohr-Ah pincer assault, and are no more.

In anticipation of their final stand, the last remaining alliance fleets gather at Delta Gorno to face to Kohr-Ah. A fierce battle is waged, but the conclusion is foregone. However, as the Kohr-Ah sweep in to eliminate the Shofixti, Delta Gorno explodes into a supernove, decimating over 1/3 of the Kohr-Ah fleet and scourging any other life in the star system. Their task completed for them, the remaining 2/3s of the Kohr-Ah strike mercilessly against the VUX. Resistance is as heavy as can be mustered, but both the VUX and Yehat have been worn down from constant battle and the Kohr-Ah are as relentless as ever. The VUX fall first, and the Starship Clans follow soon after. The Kohr-Ah howl in triumph as they have done thousands of times before, and prepare to head to the next sector of space, where they have begun to sense the presence of their green counterparts.

The result is the same, though the methods are slightly different. The war against the Kohr-Ah is lost after 5 - 6 years of nearly constant, brutal combat. Kohr-Ah losses are especially heavy, with over 40% of their fleet having been lost in the conflict, most to the Shofixti's final blaze of glory. The Kzer-Za engage their brethren in ritual combat in the sector "north" of ours after enslaving all of the native races there, and though strength of sheer numbers, emerge victorious. Once again, the Kohr-Ah are forced to acknowledge the superiority of the Path of Now and Forever.

It may seem depressing, but I simply don't see a feasible scenario where the Kohr-Ah fail to wipe out everyone else.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: cloneof on May 11, 2009, 10:24:03 pm
Hmm... Hmm... Now that's something god damm hard to argue...

But this just gives me a new oppertunity to point out that Arilou would most likely gather the local races. In the original time line beofre Earth was called to battle, Arilou were sure that either Kzer-Za would one day come and slave shield them or the Alliance would won. The humans joining the war changed Arilou strategy as humanity going global would change (I would figure that at worst constant war would turn humans into a species that would allow itself to be enslaved, rather then shieldet.).
However, I find no other way to save humanity then a alliance of races.

Also, on the subject, why does most people argue that Arilou would comromise with just taking few humans. I mean, call me a fan of them, but after just spending once again playing SC 2 and talking with them making conversation about how they used to go to Earth in the past, I just can't imagine them exploiting every other possibility before beign forced to sarcifice Earth.

And now that I have soften you with my mind melting text, does anyone mind if I would write a fanfic about this theory in the future  ;D?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 11, 2009, 11:35:03 pm
About the arilou - they are outside the timeline , so *when* they discover Humans destroyed , they would *rewind* time and warn humans and whoever they see fit maybe even   before the Kohr-Ah fleet reaches this quadrant . Still , I don't see the end result any different - the alliance will not form to a full extent before some major races would get completely destroyed thus getting everybody's true attention . The only way I see the losses on Kohr-Ah side being great enough to warrant Human survival is main task force of Utwig/Chenjesu and this can be if Arilou manage to convey the message to them to  check it with the Ultron . Druuge are doomed any way , and not too sorry for them , if the fleet then turns to Mycon space rather than to Utwig/Supox , alliance of Utwig,Supox,Chenjesu,Mbots,Humans might stand a chance if it forms fast enough to aid Yehat/Shofixty . Ilwrath would not get pranked by Umgah to that point and might get to the mix as support , Thraddash will go in for a fight , ZPF and Umgah will find something to do as well . I am unable to write full strategic and tactical scenarios as Draxas can , but this might just turn out well . The bad thing is , that IF this alliance is victorious in some way , some years after the Kzer-za will arrive and although the victorious alliance will be united and with cooperative tactics refined , the shear amount of the Kzer-Za will be disasterous to the survivors .

I think this is the longest post I have ever made ...


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 11, 2009, 11:52:16 pm
And there might be the Druuge/Spathi way for the Arilou to ensure Human survival - sabotage the hyperspace communication in this corner of space and enforce silence while placing 'casters on the Druuge - Gg - Utwig - Supox  line , luring the Kohr-ah fleet to meet the Kzer-Za fleet outside our quadrant entirely .
Although this is highly unlikely scenario even for the Arilou .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 12, 2009, 12:44:31 am
I was going to mention this before, but couldn't find an appropriate place to do so... but I suppose this is as good a spot as any.

Any scenario relying on the Utwig in any way, shape, or form is doomed to failure: At this point, the Ultron is broken and the Utwig are suicidally depressed. They welcome the Kohr-Ah and oblivion without batting an eye, and certainly without putting up a fight. So there is no alliance they would even consider joining, instead embracing their fate.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 12, 2009, 02:02:50 am
When exactly was the Ultron broken anyway?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 12, 2009, 02:07:20 am
I tend to disagree - the Druuge say they sold the Ultron couple of years back , meaning almout immediately before this alternative storyline . or even after it . I don't think the Utwig broke it immediately as they got it , so the Ultron might just be intact and then who knows , they might not break it at all , as it happened in a happy ceremony , possibly out of order on the brink of a war ... If the Kohr-Ah arrived before the Druuge sold the Ultron at all the Utwig might be as willing as not to join the upcoming alliance . Although they are naive and trusting , I think  they would probably join .


EDIT - Jaychant , you posted while I was typing ...
I don't remember how many time passed , but could not be too long - the Utwig susciety was still functioning . In the state of depression they were , they'd die out if it was long time .

EDIT2 - Melnorme info
Quote
"Not more than fifty years ago the Druuge were informed by the
now-extinct Burvixese race of a powerful alien nation called the
Utwig.  The Utwig, the Burvixese explained, were pleasant,
sophisticated creatures but they were also terminally depressed and
often spoke about ending their lives by activating a super-weapon,
some kind of gigantic bomb which they had found on one of their worlds
-- Zeta Hyades VI-B I think it was.  The Druuge recognized the
description of the bomb as a Precursor planeteering tool which indeed
was an explosive device of unrivaled power, and they set out to make
it their own.  Though the revolting, criminal, insidious Druuge rarely
leave their sphere of influence (it encompasses Algol, Almagest, and
the Persei stars) they made a special trip on this occasion to the
Aquarii constellation, where they made contact with the Utwig.  There
is a device commonly known as the `Ultron'.  Is it now in your
possession? Ah... I see.  The Druuge sold this device to the Utwig,
explaining that it was a Precursor `Personal Magnifier' which would
enrich the lives of their entire culture in too many ways to describe
specifically.  The Utwig, I am sorry to say, fell for the Druuge's
foul ruse, and snapped up the Ultron immediately.  Fortunately for us
all, the Utwig did not pay the Druuge's requested price -- the
super-bomb and instead gave them a collection of `historical oddments
and genuine artifacts' which to this day, the Druuge are trying to
unload on unwary buyers."

"The Utwig, who live in the Aquarii constellation, have grown very
depressed of late.  They accidentally broke the supposed `Ultron' sold
to them by the felonious Druuge.  As a consequence, they are morose
and melancholic and will probably be unwilling to help you fight the
Ur-Quan.  If you wish to gain them as allies, we recommend that you
acquire the broken Ultron (as if it EVER worked) and find some
suitable replacement parts.  Our information indicates that you can
find these items in three different places a Rosy Sphere at the Druuge
trade world an Aqua Helix somewhere in Thraddash space and a Clear
Spindle, which is currently in the possession of the Pkunk."


So most likely the Utwig would be in posession of an unbroken artefact .

Edit3 - Supox this time
Quote
"The Druuge, the cruel, sallow trading race who sold the device to the Utwig
called the device the `Ultron' and claimed that it would give the Utwig super-powers.
Unfortunately, the Utwig believed the Druuge and bought the Ultron.
However, the device DID make the Utwig very happy.
Of course, we didn't tell them what we REALLY thought of the Ultron
that they were vapid fools to buy a piece of junk for a planet's ransom.
We went along with the falsehood, and in doing so showed our own stupidity.
Then, one sad day a few years ago, the Utwig Proctor dropped the Ultron
during a particularly energetic and festive ritual.
Now the Utwig are morose and depressed.
They feel they cannot ever achieve greatness because they lost the powers of the Ultron.
They even gave the broken device to us, saying that they couldn't stand the sight of it anymore.
We are worried that the Utwig are so depressed that they may use their Ultimate Weapon.
Here! You take the Ultron, maybe you can do something with it."

To sum it up - 50 years before the SC2 Utwig got the Ultron . They broke it just couple of years back , meaning after the defeat of first alliance , that happened 20 years before .
If Kohr-Ah arrived more than 30 years before they should - Utwig have no Ultron but might help anyway . Less than 30 years - Utwig have "working" Ultron . In addition , they would have the Precursors bomb , just like Shofixty and this thing might work twice - wouldn't against Kzer-za , but Kohr-Ah could get it twice .

Another thhing - there probably be no Vindicator ship in this alternative storyline .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 12, 2009, 05:46:05 pm
The lack of a Vindicator in this alternate universe is a given: Starcontrol would not have the means to send an expidition to Vela until late in the Slave Wars. Even if the expedition is sent, if we run on the same time frame as SC2, the Kohr-Ah have already exterminated all life in the sector by the time the Vindicator breaks orbit and moved on. Zelnick and crew would find Earth to be a burnt out shell of a world, and if they're very unlucky, a stray Kohr-Ah would trace their Hyperspace trail just like the Kzer-Za did, and they would return to Unzervalt to find it in the same condition (assuming they can even get back; they haven't got enough fuel, and the Melnorme would have fled the sector before the Kohr-Ah arrived thanks to the Metatron. They probably would wind up stranded in Hyperspace, either starving to death or being picked apart by probes, assuming the Slylandro even manage to procure them at all).

However, there may be a valid point there about the Utwig still having an intact Ultron. Still, the scenario plays out in much the same manner. The Burvixese perish first thanks to the Druuge, and the Druuge are next due to the failure of their ruse and the lack of Kzer-Za to divert the Kohr-Ah's attention. The Kohr-Ah turn towards the Utwig, who have been forewarned of their coming and have set battle lines against them with the Supox. However, the might of the Kohr-Ah is too great; under sustained assault and the overwhelming pressure of their numbers, the lines eventually falter. A plan is devised to use their Precursor terraforming tool in a last ditch assault on the enemy, but it is too late. The Utwig are exterminated before they can execute their scheme, though the Kohr-Ah fortunately deem Zeta Hyades VI-B of no importance and do not investigate the moon short of destroying the fleet stationed there. The Supox follow soon after, as they have little hope of resisting without the Utwig's support. Their sacrifice, however, buys precious time in the form of several months, and the Ultron instructs the Utwig to send scouts to contact the rimward races and let them know that they must prepare.

Unfortunatelyby the time the nature of the threat is verified and the fleets are readied for battle, it is too late for the ZFP; they die horribly after putting up only token resistance since alliance forces are unable to reach them in time. The Kohr-Ah next turn their attentions to the Thraddash, and the alliance attempts to intervene and convince the Thraddash to aid them. However, stubborn and violent as they are, the Thraddash refuse to take the danger seriously and attack alliance forces as they arrive in their region of space. Rather than risk drawn out conflict and losses against the Thraddash (and not entirely understanding their mindset), the alliance regretfully retreats back to Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm space to shore up their battle lines. The Thraddash are swiftly exterminated when the Kohr-Ah arrive.

The scenario otherwise plays out similarly to the second one I described above.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 12, 2009, 06:02:17 pm
If Arilow give out timely enough warning , the Utwig/Supox force could be reinforced by the members of the first alliance before the Kohr-Ah fleet arrives .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 12, 2009, 06:16:55 pm
But how would the Arilou find out? Their scouting range seems to be limited to the natural QS portal and Earth at that time. They really have no reason to be off in Druuge space. Despite that, it would take longer for the alliance to mobilize across the entire sector than it would for the Kohr-Ah to exterminate the Druuge and Utwig - Supox. Remember, the only reason the Utwig and Supox were able to delay the Kohr-Ah for an entire year in SC2 is because they were focused on the Kzer-Za. The interlopers were just a nuisance (albeit quite an effective one) rather than the primary target.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 12, 2009, 06:26:35 pm
Arilou will notice destruction of mankind , go back in time and see what caused it , go further back and look into the source , go earlier and notice the arrival path etc.
There are Q-portals leading to Druuge and Burvixese .


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Death 999 on May 12, 2009, 08:55:41 pm
I agree that if the Arilou are going to try a grand Alliance, they're going to act in a sufficiently timely fashion to make it work... if it can be made to work. If not, they'll just pack up and ship Earth off to somewhere else. Take it off the Hyperspace system if necessary.

So, the Alliance will include the Utwig at least, and anyone else implied by their acting that early.

Furthermore, the Arilou will be able to provide deep scouting, which will prevent those surprise attacks. Note that the Hierarchy never achieved strategic surprise while the Arilou were onboard, except for the unexpected addition of the Mycon, which isn't the same thing at all.

Speaking of the Mycon, the Arilou could have just been holding out, realizing that the Mycon joining the Ur-Quan outright was less harmful than them turning later when they were being relied on. They do (at least by SC2 era) know a considerable amount about the Mycon, and not just the kinds of things that they would find out in a brief time, like things about the Deep Children, which aren't used that frequently. So the extent of Arilou awareness is at least that great, anyway.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 12, 2009, 09:42:37 pm
The Ultron would tell the Utwig to send scouts long before the Kohr-Ah arrived, which would allow for an alliance. So there would be an alliance of Utwig, Supox, Yehat, Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Shofixti, Human, Umgah, Zoq-Fot-Pik, and possibly VUX, Androsynth, and Mycon. The alliance would meet the Kohr-Ah in Druuge space and fight. This would not likely defeat the Kohr-Ah, but it would put a severe dent in their forces. The Druuge would be eliminated. Next is the Utwig. We have to consider that the Utwig ships are said to be effective against Kohr-Ah ships, and while it is true that the Kohr-Ah weren't focusing on the Utwig during the Doctrinal conflict, the Utwig were also accepting casualties handed to them by the Ur-Quan. Along with the allied forces, the Utwig would likely have the potential to win. In addition, the Utwig would detonate their bomb just like the Shofixti if the force in that region was defeated, annihilating many more Marauders. If the Kohr-Ah still somehow managed to destroy the Utwig, they would be eliminated by allied forces after that, possibly destroying Thraddash, Umgah, and Ilwrath. But the chance that they would succeed in destroying everyone is very slim.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 12, 2009, 09:55:12 pm
I'm not sure where the perception that the Arilou can go back in time comes from. While they certainly seem to perceive time in a different fashion than the norm, they still seem to be bound by it in a linear sense. Otherwise, many of the things that happen (or could happen) in SC1 and 2 could easily be avoided by their intervention. Granted, they only intervene on Humanity's behalf, but I think the Death March at the end of the time limit of SC2 would have a significantly different result if they could make changes to the time stream (or for that matter, shut away or remove the Earth).

I'll grant you that they have the ability to perform deep scouting, but only insofar as our sector of the galaxy is concerned. By the time they become aware of the Kohr-Ah, it is at best from intercepting transmissions from the Gg to the Druuge or Burvixese about their coming. Even if they immediately warn all of the potential alliance races of the coming threat, most are not likely to take it seriously until they see proof, which is already too late. Even if they did all gather their forces, join in a grand armada, and truck off to the other side of the sector for combat, it will already be too late for the Burvixese and Druuge, and probbly the Utwig and Supox as well; it's a long trip, especially with all those slow ships in tow. At that point, how does the scenario change? The lines are drawn outside of ZFP space? The alliance is still smashed in their first encounter with an unknown, extrememly powerful, and vastly numerically superior fleet. All this does is cut down their numbers for when they need to defend their home stars.

I maintain that there is no feasible scenario that ends in victory for the alliance. In fact, I don't think it's too farfetched to think that there is no feasible scenario that ends in a stalemate long enough that the Kohr-Ah would be distracted by the coming of the Kzer-Za. 20 years is a long time to try to resist an impacable enemy with superior numbers and technology with no goal other than to exterminate anything with sentience.

EDIT: Slim nothing; they don't have a chance. Even if the Utwig successfully detonate their Precursor bomb Shofixti style when their lines are broken (and they will be; the Utwig will be overwhelmed by sheer numbers eventually, effective ships or not. Besides that, the Utwig don't seem to have this sort of personality type, and would be much more likely to try and deploy the bomb as a straight weapon rather than a suicide ploy), the Kohr-Ah will learn from this. They won't fall for it again when the Shofixti try to do it, and the casualties will be much smaller. Or perhaps they will look for signs of the same tactic, and be able to disable the bomb entirely.

Of course, this assumes that the Utwig would be able to get an alliance together. Even with the Ultron, they remain rather insular, not contacting any races other than the Supox and the Alliance (and that, only out of gratitude for fixing the Ultron) in SC2 (the Druuge initiated contact with them, remember, and the Utwig wound up being mostly unhappy with the result once they traded for the Ultron). Besides, with their slow ships, they would have to send scouts at least a year in advance in order to establish an alliance in time to face the Kohr-Ah in Druuge space.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 18, 2009, 08:58:58 pm
This thread is too long for me to read in detail, but it is interesting to skim, so I apologize if what I'm going to say is not exactly relevant or have been suggested before.

I don't think the Arilou can go back in time, but I do think they are the most advance race around (beside the Orz, no one knows shit about the Orz).
Assuming their claims of guiding humanity from its beginning are correct, and assuming this means really beginning, the Arilou were messing with Humans AT LEAST 30,000 years ago. The minimum is 10,000 years before the Ur-quan begun their doctrine. And the maximum is millions of years past (which makes them older then the Precursors!).

I said all that because I think that if the Arilou REALLY wanted to, they could either wipe the Kohr-ah themselves or give the Alliance sufficient tech to do it.

But what I see more plausible is that they'll run off with humanity. As people here suggested. Perhaps something as extreme as kidnapping Earth itself, or the majority of the population.
I know it didn't happen in the game if the Death March occur, but no one tells us if the Arilou didn't take away most of the humans as the bombs were heading down, without the Korh-ah every finding out about it.

I know I give the Arilou A LOT of credits, but that's my opinion on the green bastards. Oh, and I don't trust them.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on May 18, 2009, 10:13:49 pm
Assuming their claims of guiding humanity from its beginning are correct, and assuming this means really beginning, the Arilou were messing with Humans AT LEAST 30,000 years ago. The minimum is 10,000 years before the Ur-quan begun their doctrine. And the maximum is millions of years past (which makes them older then the Precursors!).

Timeline:

Homo~ 2,500,000 BC  - I don't think they were talking about these guys...
Homo sapiens~ 200,000 BC
Civilization~ 10,000 BC   - Perhaps they were referring to this?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on May 18, 2009, 11:16:07 pm
Draxas - My imression of Arilou being time travellers comes from Ors' reference to them " they are always *jumping in front* "


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 19, 2009, 12:04:25 am
I always interpreted that as dimension hopping rather than time travelling. It seems to be a remark about the Arilou trying to stop the Orz from making inroads into various other dimensions (AKA Truespace). One would assume that this means the Arilou have some means of physically stopping the Orz from crossing dimensions (which was unsuccessful with regard to the Androsynth for whatever reason), or that they have modified other races that the Orz were or would have been inerested in *replacing* in other dimensions.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Death 999 on May 21, 2009, 04:13:15 pm
I maintain that there is no feasible scenario that ends in victory for the alliance. In fact, I don't think it's too farfetched to think that there is no feasible scenario that ends in a stalemate long enough that the Kohr-Ah would be distracted by the coming of the Kzer-Za. 20 years is a long time to try to resist an impacable enemy with superior numbers and technology with no goal other than to exterminate anything with sentience.

Why? The Kzer-za seem to be equally balanced to them in principle, with the balance being tipped by the Shofixti sacrifice... and even with the help of their thralls they took a good long time and eventually just got frustrated enough that they resorted to the Sa-Matra, which the Kohr-Ah don't have.
One way around this is that the Kohr-Ah are more casualty-tolerant than the Kzer-za, and would push themselves far harder. In that case, a likely scenario would be that the alliance grinds them down, with heavy losses, until the Kohr-Ah realize that to have a chance of beating the Kzer-za they'll have to retreat and regroup.
What happens then is not clear.

~~~~

One strong note in favor of, if not time travel, at least highly specific prediction, is that the Arilou know, potentially years before you ever go to Betelgeuse or Mycon space, that you're going to hook up with Talana.

As for the death march, It's feasible that that's just a game mechanic. That is, the Arilou let things get to that point because they knew that in the canonical timeline, you'd win.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 21, 2009, 05:43:45 pm
Why? The Kzer-za seem to be equally balanced to them in principle, with the balance being tipped by the Shofixti sacrifice... and even with the help of their thralls they took a good long time and eventually just got frustrated enough that they resorted to the Sa-Matra, which the Kohr-Ah don't have.

My personal interpretation of this is that the Kzer-Za take their time and don't strike directly at the heart of their target immediately. Instead, they grind them down, methodically destroying their forces and offering every opportunity for them to submit, so that when the time comes that the Dreadnought fleet appears in orbit around their homeworld, the people below know that they are beyond hope, and know exactly who their masters are. This can take significantly longer than the Kohr-Ah, simply because it's as much a psychological war as a military one, whereas the Kohr-Ah (if the Death March is any indication) simply make a surgical strike and obliterate their target's homeworld, and then clean up the disorganized and demoralized remnants in short order immediately afterward.

I maintain that the the only reason the Kzer-Za even used the Sa-Matra at all was because they heard the hunting call of the approaching Kohr-Ah fleet. They knew that they were running out of time to prepare, and could no longer afford to fight their usual war of attrition against the Alliance. So they wrapped things up as quickly as possible through a single surgical application of the Sa-Matra (which I'm sure they were disgusted they had to use at all; this is the item that called the genuine superiority of their doctrine into question in the first place). If the Kzer-Za really just wanted to crush all resistance as swiftly as possible, they surely would have used the Sa-Matra far more frequently.

Quote
One way around this is that the Kohr-Ah are more casualty-tolerant than the Kzer-za, and would push themselves far harder. In that case, a likely scenario would be that the alliance grinds them down, with heavy losses, until the Kohr-Ah realize that to have a chance of beating the Kzer-za they'll have to retreat and regroup.
What happens then is not clear.

The Kohr-Ah do not seem to employ the same tactics as the Kzer-Za. Let's try an analogy: The Kzer-Za are a huge army, advancing on the gates of each city. They employ no subtlety, and simply advance against their enemy, stopping for a brief parley before each encounter to demand the enemy surrender, and when rejected, they simply steamroll right over them. When they reach the gates, and march inside after crushing all of the defenders, they enslave the survivors as either fighters to bolster their forces, or workers to reinforce their supply lines, all in preparation for marching on the next city.

The Kohr-Ah, in contrast, are a force of highly skilled assassins. They sneak into the city under cover of darkness, attempting to draw as little attention as possible (though they have no trouble swiftly dealing with anyone who discovers them). They make their way to the heart of the city, drop off a massive bomb capable of killing every resident, and leave. The ensuing detonation wipes out every vestige of the city and its inhabitants, save for some empty ruins. The assassins then sweep back in, rapidly finishing off anyone who remains, before moving on to the next city.

It's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea (I hope).

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One strong note in favor of, if not time travel, at least highly specific prediction, is that the Arilou know, potentially years before you ever go to Betelgeuse or Mycon space, that you're going to hook up with Talana.

Really? I don't remember this dialog, but it's a pretty interesting tidbit for them to drop on you. When does it show up?

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As for the death march, It's feasible that that's just a game mechanic. That is, the Arilou let things get to that point because they knew that in the canonical timeline, you'd win.

First of all, the lack of an actual SC3 means that we really don't know how the canonical timeline plays out. While it's safe to assume that the Kohr-Ah are not successful in wiping everyone out, what is unclear is how far they get (or even if they win the Doctrinal Conflict) before the Sa-Matra is destroyed and the Chmmr fleets sweep in.

How do the Arilou respond to the Death March once it begins? I don't remember if their dialog changes or not, nor am I sure if they disappear from Quasispace after the Kohr-Ah wipe out their SOI. If they do, maybe they're not quite as good at this prediction thing as they would like us to believe.

Yeah, it might just be a game mechanic, and canon probably dictates that the Death March never happens. But it is a useful thing to analyze, at least as a potential outcome of the game.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 21, 2009, 09:12:04 pm
The Kohr-Ah do not seem to employ the same tactics as the Kzer-Za. Let's try an analogy: The Kzer-Za are a huge army, advancing on the gates of each city. They employ no subtlety, and simply advance against their enemy, stopping for a brief parley before each encounter to demand the enemy surrender, and when rejected, they simply steamroll right over them. When they reach the gates, and march inside after crushing all of the defenders, they enslave the survivors as either fighters to bolster their forces, or workers to reinforce their supply lines, all in preparation for marching on the next city.

The Kohr-Ah, in contrast, are a force of highly skilled assassins. They sneak into the city under cover of darkness, attempting to draw as little attention as possible (though they have no trouble swiftly dealing with anyone who discovers them). They make their way to the heart of the city, drop off a massive bomb capable of killing every resident, and leave. The ensuing detonation wipes out every vestige of the city and its inhabitants, save for some empty ruins. The assassins then sweep back in, rapidly finishing off anyone who remains, before moving on to the next city.

It's not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea (I hope).

I agree, but keep this in mind: Other races would be able to detect the elimination of other species. Remember that when the Gg were being exterminated, they warned the Burvixese, who in turn warned the Druuge, so the Druuge were able to do something about it. Once the Kohr-Ah attacked the Umgah, the rest of known races would learn of the Kohr-Ah and prepare for battle, and they would gather to protect their homeworlds. Almost every member of each species would involve themselves in the war, so it would truly be a fight to the death, meaning that after the Umgah were exterminated, the Kohr-Ah would have a harder time fighting the races than the Ur-Quan. The Arilou would also come in to defend the humans, making it even harder for the Kohr-Ah. Worst cast scenario is that the first few races would be eliminated. They would not likely succeed in killing the Spathi, Androsynth, Humans, VUX, Yehat, Mycon, Zoq-Fot-Pik, or Syreen.

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Really? I don't remember this dialog, but it's a pretty interesting tidbit for them to drop on you. When does it show up?

They mention the Mycon Deep Children and claim that "the fate of the universe and your heart" are related to them.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 21, 2009, 09:32:45 pm
I agree, but keep this in mind: Other races would be able to detect the elimination of other species. Remember that when the Gg were being exterminated, they warned the Burvixese, who in turn warned the Druuge, so the Druuge were able to do something about it. Once the Kohr-Ah attacked the Umgah, the rest of known races would learn of the Kohr-Ah and prepare for battle, and they would gather to protect their homeworlds. Almost every member of each species would involve themselves in the war, so it would truly be a fight to the death, meaning that after the Umgah were exterminated, the Kohr-Ah would have a harder time fighting the races than the Ur-Quan. The Arilou would also come in to defend the humans, making it even harder for the Kohr-Ah. Worst cast scenario is that the first few races would be eliminated. They would not likely succeed in killing the Spathi, Androsynth, Humans, VUX, Yehat, Mycon, Zoq-Fot-Pik, or Syreen.

I disagree with that assessment for one important reason: most of the races were rather insular until the Ur-Quan showed up, and maybe knew one or two of their neighbors (if they knew any of them at all). Only the Chenjesu seemed to know of anyone farther away, which is why they were the original organizers of the Alliance. So really, the destruction of the Umgah would not trigger too many alarm bells, since only the Spathi and Arilou knew of them, and neither would be likely to tell anyone else. Depending on the direction the Kohr-Ah took afterward, they would strike either at the Ilwrath (which would alert the Chenjesu and start the ball rolling, though that would make the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm the next to fall) or Spathi (which nobody would really notice, since only the Umgah seemed to have relations with them; the next target from there could be Syreen, then Mycon, then VUX or Yehat, making this scenario a complete disaster since nobody would have any advance warning until almost half the races were wiped out). This pretty much hearkens back to the original scenario I laid out, before all this talk about time travel and the Arilou uniting the galaxy (which I still think is terribly out of character).

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Really? I don't remember this dialog, but it's a pretty interesting tidbit for them to drop on you. When does it show up?

They mention the Mycon Deep Children and claim that "the fate of the universe and your heart" are related to them.

Huh, neat. I never saw that one, despite all the time I spent chatting up the Arilou in some of my games (arriving at the QS portal on the 1st is a pisser). I wonder, though, if the message is dependent on whether you've been to see Talana yet or not; if so, then it's more likely they've been observing your progress and noticed your eyeballs fall out of your head when you first met her. ;)


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 21, 2009, 10:21:11 pm
Huh, neat. I never saw that one, despite all the time I spent chatting up the Arilou in some of my games (arriving at the QS portal on the 1st is a pisser). I wonder, though, if the message is dependent on whether you've been to see Talana yet or not; if so, then it's more likely they've been observing your progress and noticed your eyeballs fall out of your head when you first met her. ;)

No, it has nothing to do with meeting anybody. It's one of those random pieces of information they give you when you talk to them in space.

I disagree with that assessment for one important reason: most of the races were rather insular until the Ur-Quan showed up, and maybe knew one or two of their neighbors (if they knew any of them at all). Only the Chenjesu seemed to know of anyone farther away, which is why they were the original organizers of the Alliance. So really, the destruction of the Umgah would not trigger too many alarm bells, since only the Spathi and Arilou knew of them, and neither would be likely to tell anyone else. Depending on the direction the Kohr-Ah took afterward, they would strike either at the Ilwrath (which would alert the Chenjesu and start the ball rolling, though that would make the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm the next to fall) or Spathi (which nobody would really notice, since only the Umgah seemed to have relations with them; the next target from there could be Syreen, then Mycon, then VUX or Yehat, making this scenario a complete disaster since nobody would have any advance warning until almost half the races were wiped out). This pretty much hearkens back to the original scenario I laid out, before all this talk about time travel and the Arilou uniting the galaxy (which I still think is terribly out of character).

The Chenjesu were able to detect the Ur-Quan taking over the Umgah. In turn, the Chenjesu would no doubt warn the Pkunk, Spathi, and Androsynth. In turn, the Pkunk would warn the Yehat, who would warn the Shofixti and maybe even the VUX. The Mycon and Syreen would likely not be informed, since they were unknown at the time, but the Mycon were already prepared for war. If the Chenjesu didn't warn the humans (which they probably would), then the Arilou would.

So the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Ilwrath, and Umgah would still be wiped out, but the Kohr-Ah would have a hard time fighting everyone else, because they would be ready.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 21, 2009, 11:57:06 pm
Some bits of info that might help:
1)When the Kzer-za entered our area of space (presumably even before conquering the Thraddash) they broadcasted a battlecry across hyperspace. The Chenjesu picked it up (being naturally able to recive hyperspace communications) and begun preparing the alliace.

I don't know however (as in I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere) if the Kohr-ah did the same. This could matter a lot in this discussion.

2) The Mmrnmhrm knew about the Spathi. So if the Spathi were under attack the Mmrnmhrm might notice.

3) I don't think the Mycon were ready to war at the time. They sneaked their deep child to the Syreen HW, they weren't going for a head-on war.
It was mentioned in SC2 that since the Hierarchy's victory and after the Kzer-za left the thralls for their own devices, the VUX and Mycon both worked hard expending their sphere of influence.
So I assume that at the time of SC1 their forces were smaller then in SC2.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 22, 2009, 12:15:28 am
Some bits of info that might help:
1)When the Kzer-za entered our area of space (presumably even before conquering the Thraddash) they broadcasted a battlecry across hyperspace. The Chenjesu picked it up (being naturally able to recive hyperspace communications) and begun preparing the alliace.

I don't know however (as in I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere) if the Kohr-ah did the same. This could matter a lot in this discussion.

2) The Mmrnmhrm knew about the Spathi. So if the Spathi were under attack the Mmrnmhrm might notice.

3) I don't think the Mycon were ready to war at the time. They sneaked their deep child to the Syreen HW, they weren't going for a head-on war.
It was mentioned in SC2 that since the Hierarchy's victory and after the Kzer-za left the thralls for their own devices, the VUX and Mycon both worked hard expending their sphere of influence.
So I assume that at the time of SC1 their forces were smaller then in SC2.

The Chenjesu had no idea what the broadcast was. The first noticeable sign was the rapid subjugation of the Umgah and the Chenjesu didn't prepare for war until about the time the Ilwrath were conquered. They were actually barely able to turn aside the Ur-Quan fleet with their hastily assembled defense fleet. So there is practically no way the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm could survive the Kohr-Ah (since the Kohr-Ah would keep fighting).


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 22, 2009, 05:46:33 am
The Chenjesu were able to detect the Ur-Quan taking over the Umgah. In turn, the Chenjesu would no doubt warn the Pkunk, Spathi, and Androsynth. In turn, the Pkunk would warn the Yehat, who would warn the Shofixti and maybe even the VUX. The Mycon and Syreen would likely not be informed, since they were unknown at the time, but the Mycon were already prepared for war. If the Chenjesu didn't warn the humans (which they probably would), then the Arilou would.

So the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Ilwrath, and Umgah would still be wiped out, but the Kohr-Ah would have a hard time fighting everyone else, because they would be ready.

Many false assumptions here. First, nobody really took much notice of the Umgah being conquered, the Chenjesu only perked up when the Ilwrath came under attack if I recall correctly. Second, the Chenjesu would not contact any of the races you mentioned, or presumably the first Alliance would have looked significantly different. The Chenjesu would have warned the Yehat, and presumably Earth as well, since that's exactly what they did when being assaulted by the Kzer-Za. The Pkunk were unknown at the time to anyone save the Yehat, who refused to acknowledge their existence. The Spathi were isolated from everyone except the Umgah, who I'm sure they wouldn't miss if they were cleansed. The Androsynth were completely isolated and unknown to all, and only became players in SC1 when they were discovered and conquered by the Kzer-Za.

The Yehat would ready the Shofixti for sure, and perhaps convince the VUX, but didn't know anyone else at the time. Humans were new to the interstellar scene, and had no contacts, though the Arilou would presumably step in to try to defend them as the did in SC1. As you say, the Mycon and Syreen were unknown to all, and as an isolated force, the Mycon are not much of a threat no matter how prepared they were. So we're talking about the old Alliance, minus Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm, and Syreen, and possibly plus VUX. Those are long odds for stopping the Death March, and realistically, they have no chance.

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2) The Mmrnmhrm knew about the Spathi. So if the Spathi were under attack the Mmrnmhrm might notice.

The Mmrnhrm had only a single contact with the Spathi, which was brief and cordial, and considering the Spathi attitude in these matters, even if they had been approached (which they weren't in SC1), they probably would have hid instead of joining the alliance. A lethal mistake, but definitely one that is in character.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 22, 2009, 12:10:35 pm
First, nobody really took much notice of the Umgah being conquered, the Chenjesu only perked up when the Ilwrath came under attack if I recall correctly.

You are exactly right. Like I said, the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm would not be able to survive. But they would be able to warn the Humans and Yehat, so other races can prepare.

Second, the Chenjesu would not contact any of the races you mentioned, or presumably the first Alliance would have looked significantly different. The Chenjesu would have warned the Yehat, and presumably Earth as well, since that's exactly what they did when being assaulted by the Kzer-Za. The Pkunk were unknown at the time to anyone save the Yehat, who refused to acknowledge their existence. The Spathi were isolated from everyone except the Umgah, who I'm sure they wouldn't miss if they were cleansed. The Androsynth were completely isolated and unknown to all, and only became players in SC1 when they were discovered and conquered by the Kzer-Za.

OK, then the Chenjesu would warn Human and Yehat, Arilou would step in to defend Humans, and Yehat would warn Shofixti and possibly VUX. Humans would probably warn the Androsynth and maybe even form an alliance. The Yehat might also ally with Earth. I personally don't think an alliance would be created between the Yehat and VUX or between the Humans and VUX, but the Kohr-Ah would be forced to fight a true war and would therefore have less of a chance of succeeding anyways. Also, the help of Admiral ZEX would make it even harder for the Kohr-Ah to win.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 22, 2009, 03:13:55 pm
The Humans won't warn anyone.
They don't know were any alien race is, including the Androsynth.
And their best weaponery is the old nukes from the peace vaults...
In other words it is up to the Arilou to save our asses.

Without the Humans though, it is more likely that the VUX will ally themselves with the Yehat.
But a Yehat-Shofixti-VUX alliance isn't something impressive enough to stop the Kohr-ah.

The Androsynth too, BTW, are unkown to anyone. As they are a new race in their area and are busy building their civillization from zero.

Unless the Chenjesu and Mrn will be able to hold the Kohr-ah relentless attacks long enough to orgenize an Alliance like they did with the Kzer-za (which they might be able to do... maybe...) then the only survivors will be the Arilou and the Humans they rescued.
And maybe the Mycon, if they can hide under the crust of a planet (if a deep child can develop into a Mycon colony and is not just a device).


Hmm... this is a bit off topic, but I bet it would be really annoying to cleanse the Pkunk...  ;D


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Death 999 on May 22, 2009, 04:03:51 pm
I don't know why you are supposing they'd come from the same direction as the Kzer-za. Wasn't the question not about a East-North flip, but just supposing the Kohr-Ah would be earlier?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 22, 2009, 07:49:46 pm
The assumption about the Kohr-Ah's direction comes from who they discover first. The progression is assumed to be:

Gg first. The Gg warn the Burvixese, who warn the Utwig and Druuge. Of course, the Druuge are discovered because of their beacons, and decoy the Kohr-Ah to the Burvixese using the 'Caster gambit. The Burvixese are cleansed, but the Kohr-Ah locate the Druuge and Utwig anyway. Druuge are cleansed next, followed by the Utwig. The Supox are right nearby, and are the next target. Once they are eliminated, the Kohr-Ah home in on broadcasts from the fledgeling ZFP, who are just starting to colonize other worlds. They are quickly exterminated. The Kohr-Ah could then take a few different routes, but the assumption is that the Thraddash are next; if they decide to go for someone else first, things would play out somewhat differently (and probably would result in complete cleansing occurring more quickly overall). Assuming the Thraddash are the next target, then the logical progression from there is for the Kohr-Ah to follow the route that the Kzer-Za took before SC1.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 22, 2009, 09:04:53 pm
The assumption about the Kohr-Ah's direction comes from who they discover first. The progression is assumed to be:

Gg first. The Gg warn the Burvixese, who warn the Utwig and Druuge. Of course, the Druuge are discovered because of their beacons, and decoy the Kohr-Ah to the Burvixese using the 'Caster gambit. The Burvixese are cleansed, but the Kohr-Ah locate the Druuge and Utwig anyway. Druuge are cleansed next, followed by the Utwig. The Supox are right nearby, and are the next target. Once they are eliminated, the Kohr-Ah home in on broadcasts from the fledgeling ZFP, who are just starting to colonize other worlds. They are quickly exterminated. The Kohr-Ah could then take a few different routes, but the assumption is that the Thraddash are next; if they decide to go for someone else first, things would play out somewhat differently (and probably would result in complete cleansing occurring more quickly overall). Assuming the Thraddash are the next target, then the logical progression from there is for the Kohr-Ah to follow the route that the Kzer-Za took before SC1.

Exactly.

The Humans won't warn anyone.
They don't know were any alien race is, including the Androsynth.
And their best weaponery is the old nukes from the peace vaults...
In other words it is up to the Arilou to save our asses.

I guess you make a point about the Androsynth, then. However, keep in mind that the old nukes were effective against the Ur-Quan at long range. So it wouldn't just be up to the Arilou.

Hmm... this is a bit off topic, but I bet it would be really annoying to cleanse the Pkunk...  ;D

Not necessarily. The resurrections would essentially increase the Pkunk fleet by half. Since actual combat is different from melee, the Kohr-Ah would have no problem at all exterminating the Pkunk.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 23, 2009, 02:53:48 am
The assumption about the Kohr-Ah's direction comes from who they discover first. The progression is assumed to be:

Gg first. The Gg warn the Burvixese, who warn the Utwig and Druuge. Of course, the Druuge are discovered because of their beacons, and decoy the Kohr-Ah to the Burvixese using the 'Caster gambit. The Burvixese are cleansed, but the Kohr-Ah locate the Druuge and Utwig anyway. Druuge are cleansed next, followed by the Utwig. The Supox are right nearby, and are the next target. Once they are eliminated, the Kohr-Ah home in on broadcasts from the fledgeling ZFP, who are just starting to colonize other worlds. They are quickly exterminated. The Kohr-Ah could then take a few different routes, but the assumption is that the Thraddash are next; if they decide to go for someone else first, things would play out somewhat differently (and probably would result in complete cleansing occurring more quickly overall). Assuming the Thraddash are the next target, then the logical progression from there is for the Kohr-Ah to follow the route that the Kzer-Za took before SC1.

Why would they fid the Druuge if they know to stay quiet?
The Burvixese, then the Mycon (who are communicating with their own ships like everyone) maybe the Syreen (Their only fleet is a fleet of space cities and escorts, if they're lucky then they are quiet enough to be missed) the VUX and Yehat and Androsynth, etc etc. No one is really able to orgenize an alliance to stop them, and everyone die...

Unless, of cosure, the Yehat show surprising ability in delaying the Kohr-ah (and maybe the VUX with ZEX), which will allow them to set up an alliance against the Korh-ah.

I feel that the best chances are again the wild cards - the Arilou and the Pkunk. Although it'll be hard to get an alliance going based on a vision.

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Not necessarily. The resurrections would essentially increase the Pkunk fleet by half. Since actual combat is different from melee, the Kohr-Ah would have no problem at all exterminating the Pkunk.

That was a joke  :P


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 23, 2009, 03:32:00 am
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Why would they fid the Druuge if they know to stay quiet?
The Burvixese, then the Mycon (who are communicating with their own ships like everyone) maybe the Syreen (Their only fleet is a fleet of space cities and escorts, if they're lucky then they are quiet enough to be missed) the VUX and Yehat and Androsynth, etc etc. No one is really able to orgenize an alliance to stop them, and everyone die...

Unless, of cosure, the Yehat show surprising ability in delaying the Kohr-ah (and maybe the VUX with ZEX), which will allow them to set up an alliance against the Korh-ah.

I feel that the best chances are again the wild cards - the Arilou and the Pkunk. Although it'll be hard to get an alliance going based on a vision.

You bring up an interesting proposal, but there is an error: If the Kohr-Ah missed the Druuge, they would no doubt attack the Utwig, going in the same direction as was assumed before.

On the other hand, if they attacked the Druuge, there may be a possibility that they would attack the Mycon and Syreen next. In that case, the scenario would be the same, just opposite (and the Mycon and Syreen would actually get exterminated). When the Yehat were attacked they would alert the Chenjesu and form a powerful defense against the Kohr-Ah. Since the Yehat are more warlike than the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm, they would be able to hold off the Kohr-Ah fleet long enough for help to arrive. Seeing the impending threat of the Kohr-Ah, the VUX would not likely help the Yehat, but they would form a powerful defense on their homeworld.

Upon hearing the news, the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm would immediately rush to the Yehat's aid. They would also try to get the humans, Umgah, and Spathi involved (probably only convincing the humans). When the humans join in the war, the Arilou would once again appear to help them.

The Androsynth might eventually recognize the presence of the Kohr-Ah and may choose to join the alliance.

So the alliance would consist of the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Yehat, Shofixti, Humans, Arilou, and possibly Androsynth. Also, the VUX would be ready to fight should the Kohr-Ah choose to attack them. The scenario would actually be much better than the previous one in which an alliance would be nigh impossible due to destruction of the Chenjesu, and therefore lack of good leadership.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 23, 2009, 06:35:03 pm
The Kohr-Ah attacking the Druuge and Utwig is a foregone conclusion; both races were detected long before they were warned by the Burvixese, as in the original SC2 scenario. The Druuge had their advertising beacons active, which were especially powerful and stuck out like a sore thumb, and the Utwig were picked up through their usual comm chatter, probably with the Burvixese. The Kohr-Ah went for the Burvixese first because they were clearly marked, but the only reason they didn't follow that up with the Druuge immediately was because they engaged the Kzer-Za in the Doctrinal Conflict. You'll notice that once the Death March starts, the Kohr-Ah pick up right where they left off, heading straight for Druuge space first.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 23, 2009, 09:08:10 pm
That's what I thought too.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 23, 2009, 10:03:36 pm
I remember that the Kohr-ah went clockwise with their match.
Unless they start it with the Utwig and Supox (I don't remember) then they (the Utwig and Supox) are the last in their march.
At any case they get the Mycon right after the Druuge, which makes sense because they are the strongest hyperwave signal out there.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 23, 2009, 10:30:04 pm
It is not pre-set in the game what order the races get exterminated in. The Kohr-Ah simply start with the Druuge and move to the nearest race after exterminating each race. However, the Kohr-Ah would go first for the races they know about, not search for more life first. It is acceptable to assume that the Kohr-Ah already knew about the Utwig.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 23, 2009, 11:18:49 pm
It is acceptable to assume that the Kohr-Ah already knew about the Utwig.

Why?
I don't even recall any evidence that the Utwing and Burvixese knew about eachother.
As you said the Kohr-ah knew about the Druuge. They will continue to the Mycon from there.

But even if they knew about the Utwing, and will destroy the Supox next for being close, the Kohr-ah would've probably pick Mycon signals from when they exterminated the Burvixese or Druuge more strongly then Thraddash signals.

Therefore their next target will, at any case, be the Mycon.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 24, 2009, 12:13:38 am
Why?
I don't even recall any evidence that the Utwing and Burvixese knew about eachother.
As you said the Kohr-ah knew about the Druuge. They will continue to the Mycon from there.

But even if they knew about the Utwing, and will destroy the Supox next for being close, the Kohr-ah would've probably pick Mycon signals from when they exterminated the Burvixese or Druuge more strongly then Thraddash signals.

Therefore their next target will, at any case, be the Mycon.

You are assuming that the best case scenario would happen. If they go for the Mycon first, like I already stated, the alliance has much more of a chance of succeeding because the Chenjesu are not destroyed. This is possible. But the thing is, I think it's more likely that they would attack the Utwig. In that case, they would no doubt move towards the Thraddash or Zoq-Fot-Pik (though I think they would never even find the Zoq-Fot-Pik, because the Kzer-Za never did) and follow the same path as the Kzer-Za (which would result in loss of organization).


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 24, 2009, 01:34:26 am
Why would they move to the Thraddash and not to the Mycon?
The Mycon seem more technology advanced, which probably means stronger hyperspace broadcasts.
Also, they probably detected the Mycon when the went for the Burvixese, and you claimed that they will try to cleanse the race in the order they detected them. Which means Mycon before Thraddash.

The Mycon are also closer then the Thraddash and ZFP, which is yet another reason to cleanse them first.

So I believe the most probable scenario is that the Kohr-ah will move against the Mycon after the Druuge. If they care about the order in which they detected races then they'll do it after cleansing the Utwig, if not then they'll do it right after destroying the Druuge.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 24, 2009, 03:05:54 am
The Kohr-Ah would not be able to tell who is more advanced from such long distance. Other than that I am unable to argue against what you're saying.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 26, 2009, 04:17:57 pm
Why would they move to the Thraddash and not to the Mycon?
The Mycon seem more technology advanced, which probably means stronger hyperspace broadcasts.
Also, they probably detected the Mycon when the went for the Burvixese, and you claimed that they will try to cleanse the race in the order they detected them. Which means Mycon before Thraddash.

More powerful hyperwave broadcasts mean nothing. Remember that the Kzer-Za picked up standard radio broadcasts from Earth before they had even entered our sector of the galaxy, and before Humans had even achieved spaceflight, let alone hyperwave technology. The Ur-Quan will find you, and will be hunting you long before you realize they even exist.

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The Mycon are also closer then the Thraddash and ZFP, which is yet another reason to cleanse them first.

I consistently operate under the assumption that the Kohr-Ah go for known races first, then default to proximity (presumably because as stated above, they really aren't all that clueless as to where anyone is). Gg, Burvixese, Druuge is a given. Utwig are probably next because they are known, and then Supox are the closest. From there, Mycon no longer have proximity, and the next target is the ZFP.

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So I believe the most probable scenario is that the Kohr-ah will move against the Mycon after the Druuge. If they care about the order in which they detected races then they'll do it after cleansing the Utwig, if not then they'll do it right after destroying the Druuge.

Not really all that probable at all. Besides, I've already outlined why this scenario fails to stop the Kohr-Ah. The Mycon are unknown to everyone before the war in SC1, which means they are silently exterminated. With that, the Kohr-Ah likely move against the Yehat. Even if the Yehat have the ability to warn of the attack (which would include Chenjesu, starting the ball rolling for an Alliance), they would also be wiped out before anyone could help them, thus crushing the primary military backbone of the original Alliance. By the time the distant fleets could organize and move against the Kohr-Ah, they are probably already done mopping up the VUX, possibly Syreen as well, and are advancing toward the Shofixti. Who are the members of the grand alliance who are going to stop them? Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm, Humans, Arilou, Shofixti, and possibly Umgah (if the Arilou decide to try to recruit them), Ilwrath (if they don't try to execute any potential allies they come across), Pkunk (if the Chenjesu even know of their existence yet, which is doubtful, since they weren't recruited in SC1), ZFP (same story as the Pkunk), and Spathi (in the even more unlikely scenario that the already recruited Umgah get serious enough to ask them, and the Spathi are level-headed and brave enough to even consider accepting ...yeah). This scenario is bad news for the alliance, since while they do have the tactical strengths of the Chenjesu, they lack the military might of the Yehat; most of the other races that would be included are either weak (Ilwrath, Pkunk, ZFP, Shofixti excepting the Precursor bomb), unreliable (Spathi, Arilou), or too few to make a difference (Arilou again, ZFP again, Mmrnhrm as well though they tend to act as a combined force with the Chenjesu). The Humans become the industrial backbone of the alliance, but they also sit right in the path of the oncoming Kohr-Ah fleet.

From here, the scenario plays out in a familiar way. The alliance battle lines are drawn in Shofixti space, but are smashed by the Kohr-Ah with ease: massive numbers, unfamiliar and advanced technology, new tactics, and a hastily assembled force standing against on that has been slaughtering foes for millennia work against the alliance in a brutal fashion. The few survivors retreat to Delta Gorno to make a stand with the remains of the Shofixti fleet. An infamous and well-known scenario plays out, and 1/3 of the Kohr-Ah fleet is destroyed, but so are the last of the main alliance comba forces, and the Shofixti are wiped from the face of the galaxy. All races scramble to build as quickly as possible and reinforce their lines, but the Kohr-Ah relentlessly advance. A small fleet of the remaining Humans, Arilou, and a scattering of a few other assorted races attempt to hold out for reinforcements at Sol; they fail. Humanity is cleansed, and the Arilou drop out of the war. From here it is a quick downward spiral, as each race finds themselves with fewer and fewer ships each time they try and fail to hold the line for each member race. The Pkunk fall next, and the Kohr-Ah smash into the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm - Ilwrath forces and decimate them. All 3 races are cleansed, and without the resolve and tactics of the Chenjesu to hold the alliance together, the rest of the member races (if there are any left) retreat to their own spheres of influence to try and prepare for the inevitable. The remainder of the Death March is abject slaughter, and the order hardly matters. Our sector is cleansed in record time, the Kohr-Ah having taken a mere 1.5 - 2 years to finish the job. They head to the next sector, where the Kzer-Za are furiously trying to subjugate the races that still resist their control. The Doctrinal Conflict is engaged once more, though it is a battle the Kohr-Ah are fated to lose.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: girhen on May 26, 2009, 07:38:56 pm
If the Kohr-Ah came first, I think the Arilou would have stepped up earlier.  They were happy with the Green Ur-Quan and the slave shield solution because it protected us, but the threat of annihilation from the Kohr-Ah would cause a more urgent response.

Some other species would be bound to send small fleets of ships away from the home world to look for safe haven, and that would warn the other races.  An alliance of some kind would form, the Kohr-Ah would have to deal with the Supox and Utwig early on, which would slow them down for a while, the Shofixti and Yehat later, and the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm.  The Orz would also be a force to reckon with, wouldn't they be right in the Kohr-Ah's path?  There are also all the smaller races that would be little pockets of small resistance. 

Don't forget, the only reason the Alliance lost was because the Sa-Matra decimated the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm fleets.  That wouldn't be an issue.  If the Kohr-Ah were truly only slightly stronger than the Kzer-Za, the Alliance would have more than a chance, especially with the more urgent Arilou help.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SuddenDeath on May 26, 2009, 10:18:15 pm
girhen> there were no Orz. The Orz came much later, long after the war. During the war the Androsynth inhabited that area.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 26, 2009, 10:37:59 pm
The Orz would also be a force to reckon with, wouldn't they be right in the Kohr-Ah's path?

The Orz didn't exist yet...

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Don't forget, the only reason the Alliance lost was because the Sa-Matra decimated the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm fleets.  That wouldn't be an issue.  If the Kohr-Ah were truly only slightly stronger than the Kzer-Za, the Alliance would have more than a chance, especially with the more urgent Arilou help.

You fail to recognize the difference in doctrine...

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The Mycon are unknown to everyone before the war in SC1, which means they are silently exterminated. With that, the Kohr-Ah likely move against the Yehat. Even if the Yehat have the ability to warn of the attack (which would include Chenjesu, starting the ball rolling for an Alliance), they would also be wiped out before anyone could help them, thus crushing the primary military backbone of the original Alliance.

The Yehat were very strong militarily due to their warlike nature. They would easily be able to hold their own long enough for help to arrive even if they weren't combined with the Shofixti (I think it would take around 6-8 months to cleanse them, and it wouldn't take more than a few months for significant help to arrive from the Chenjesu). Then when they arrived, the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm would protect the Yehat at all costs while at the same time negotiating with neighboring species back at home. Chances are, the Chenjesu would succeed in forming alliances with the Humans and Pkunk, but no one else. But the Arilou, upon the Human entrance into the war, would appear just like in the real scenario. So Humans, Pkunk, and Arilou would send ships to protect the Yehat from extermination.

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Pkunk (if the Chenjesu even know of their existence yet, which is doubtful, since they weren't recruited in SC1

The Chenjesu knew of the Pkunk's existance durint SC1. They probably didn't fight because the Pkunk are not a warlike species. They didn't want to fight. In fact, if you think about it, when you mention you want an alliance with the Pkunk, they say, "The fight. Always the fight. We Pkunk are Yin, and you are Yang." This seems to imply that the Pkunk have been asked something similar before, and they didn't want any part of it. However, the Pkunk would never let the Yehat get exterminated by the Kohr-Ah. If they considered them to be in real danger, they would no doubt have come to their aid.

One interesting thing is the Pkunk might get some spiritual message telling them of the impending Kohr-Ah threat, and then would warn other races, also guided by spirits.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on May 26, 2009, 10:57:28 pm
It seems odd that the Kohr-Ah had no trouble wiping out half the galaxy, and yet they should fail here. Imagine what advanced and powerful alliances they must have faced during their long journey here. I recall the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah saying they have witnessed countless alliances form in order to stop them, and all have failed. I can't seem to find this quote now though. :-\


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 26, 2009, 11:52:10 pm
It seems odd that the Kohr-Ah had no trouble wiping out half the galaxy, and yet they should fail here. Imagine what advanced and powerful alliances they must have faced during their long journey here. I recall the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah saying they have witnessed countless alliances form in order to stop them, and all have failed. I can't seem to find this quote now though. :-\

This is pretty much the exact point I was about to make. Why are we so special, that we can stop the unstoppable force? We're just another sector of the galaxy, like the ones that Kohr-Ah have been cleansing for millennia. In fact, considering the relatively commonplace nature of the Precursor Bombs (2 in our sector alone, so probably not a coincidence), both Ur-Quan species have probably faced them used as weapons or suicide tools before, and simply rebuild gradually as they continue their doctrinal paths. The fact that the Kzer-Za fared so badly in SC2 was probably due to lousy timing more than anything else. We don't have anything to throw at the Ur-Quan that they haven't seen before.

I also don't understand why anyone thinks any particular race could singlehandedly hold off the Kohr-Ah at all. Look at the Death March; any given race is exterminated practically instantly once the Kohr-Ah reach their homeworld, and they never have to slow their pace even slightly. This is after a brutal, multi-year war of attrition against the Kzer-Za, as well as (potentially) harassment from the Utwig and Supox that delayed the outcome of said war for a full year. Not only are the Kohr-Ah forces not reduced in any significant way by this activity, they then proceed to singlehandedly stroll about the sector, exterminating every sentient they come across as if there were no resistance in their way. How could anyone hope to stand against that sort of might on their own? They can't.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on May 27, 2009, 01:12:12 am
I think most people dont' consider the Death March as any indication to the Kohr-ah might, but as a game mechanic representation.
Besides, there is no alliance against the Death March.

Although I'd like to point out that I do think that the Korh-ah will win the war if they'll arrive first.
I'm merley arguing about who they'll attack first, and what alliance will be formed against them.

Since the Kzer-za failed completly at discovering the ZFP existance, I think it's safe to say that the Kohr-ah won't find them any faster, and will move against the Mycon after cleanseing the Utwig and Supox. (BTW, why do we think they know about the Utwig? Maybe they'll go Bruxivise, Druuge and then Mycon?).

Also, I'd like to point out that the Mrn know about the Spathi, and the Chenjesu know about the Pkunk and possibly the Umgah. So I think those races will be recruited.

Since I tend to give credit to the Androsynth, unless they'll be exterminated by a surprise Kohr-ah attack, I think that they'll join the Alliance IF they'll discover about the Korh-ah.

As for the Syreen - they stumbled into Human space the last time, undetected by the Ur-quan while on their way. MAYBE they'll manage to do the same again.

At the end, it is still most likely that the Korh-ah shall prevail, unless the Arilou will decide to do some serious wizerdy.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CaptainGuy on May 27, 2009, 06:36:43 am
lolz what gets me is why they haven't fixed their turning speed yet  ???  Hey at least it's free money...

Hands-down the Kohr-Ah are my favorite characters...  Too bad I can't convince any of them to join my against their enemies >_>


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: SuddenDeath on May 27, 2009, 09:48:43 am
UAF> I seem to recall that the Kohr-Ah had just initiated hostilities with the Utwig, but then found out anout the Kzer-Za presence so they stopped the Utwig cleansing and instead went straight for the Kzer-Za.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 27, 2009, 09:49:07 am
I think most people don't consider the Death March as any indication to the Kohr-ah might, but as a game mechanic representation.
Besides, there is no alliance against the Death March.

Both statements are true (depending on interpretation). However, I see the Death March as a quite effective demonstration of what happens to lone races that wind up in the path of the Kohr-Ah: regardless of strength, they are quickly steamrolled and exterminated to the last, without the Kohr-Ah even slowing their pace.

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Since the Kzer-za failed completly at discovering the ZFP existance, I think it's safe to say that the Kohr-ah won't find them any faster, and will move against the Mycon after cleansing the Utwig and Supox. (BTW, why do we think they know about the Utwig? Maybe they'll go Bruxivise, Druuge and then Mycon?).

I'm not sure if the Kzer-Za simply didn't know about the ZFP, considered them such a low priority threat that they ignored them, or if they simply achieved spaceflight such a short time ago that the Kzer-Za were already tied up in the Doctrinal Conflict. I tend to lean toward the latter two. There is some indication that the ZFP were in touch with the Chenjesu briefly, just before the hammer came down on the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm battle lines and they were enslaved. If they were first managing to get spaceborne at that point (or perhaps were even uplifted by the Chenjesu), then the Kzer-Za were already concerned with their timetable and finishing off the Alliance before the Kohr-Ah arrived, so they would have ignored such a minor threat until after the Doctrinal Conflict was done. I don't really think it's a matter of not detecting them; they're sitting right inside Ur-Quan space.

The idea that the Utwig were detected by the Kohr-Ah is mentioned at least once in the game dialog. I forget exactly where; I think it may be the Melnorme, and something about them being so depressed that they simply didn't care, and welcomed oblivion.

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Also, I'd like to point out that the Mrn know about the Spathi, and the Chenjesu know about the Pkunk and possibly the Umgah. So I think those races will be recruited.

The Mmrnhrm had a single pre-war contact with the Spathi, and it was polite and curt. If they were such good friends, why didn't the Mmrnhrm try to contact them to join the alliance before they were enslaved?

I maintain that the Pkunk were discovered late in the war by the Chenjesu, similarly to the ZFP. Otherwise they would have played a role; they show a willingness to fight for the "lesser yang" the SC2, so there's no reason to think they would refuse in SC1... Unless their rejection from the Alliance was contingent on keeping the Yehat as a member race, in which case, things likely wouldn't play out much differently.

It is questionable whether anyone besides the Arilou and Spathi knew about the Umgah before the war. Even if they were known to the Chenjesu, they're both weak and a crazy wildcard: They're as likely to fight against the alliance as for them (at least initially, until they discover the immensity of the Kohr-Ah threat; by then it may be too late) for a laugh.

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Since I tend to give credit to the Androsynth, unless they'll be exterminated by a surprise Kohr-ah attack, I think that they'll join the Alliance IF they'll discover about the Korh-ah.

The Androsynth weren't in contact with anyone, nor did anyone else know where they were. Barring a chance encounter (which could go very poorly if it's with an Earthling Cruiser), they're on their own.

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As for the Syreen - they stumbled into Human space the last time, undetected by the Ur-quan while on their way. MAYBE they'll manage to do the same again.

They didn't stumble into Human space, they were forced there by VUX raiding parties that were attacking their hab-fleet. Whether this was an independent action or an Ur-Quan sanctioned one is questionable, but the VUX wouldn't be as concerned with raids if they were fighting for their lives against the Kohr-Ah.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 27, 2009, 12:22:20 pm
Draxas, I think you're forcing your assumptions on your opinion, and some of your assumptions are false or irrelevant.

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I'm not sure if the Kzer-Za simply didn't know about the ZFP, considered them such a low priority threat that they ignored them, or if they simply achieved spaceflight such a short time ago that the Kzer-Za were already tied up in the Doctrinal Conflict. I tend to lean toward the latter two.

There is no indication that the Ur-Quan ever found the ZFP and it was also stated by the ZFP that the two races never found their homeworld, only their colony planets. If that isn't convincing enough, you should notice that upon seeing the planet, a Kohr-Ah ship started attacking the ZFP homeworld in an attempt to exterminate the species. If the Ur-Quan had known where the ZFP were, there is no reason the Kohr-Ah wouldn't know, so why did they wait so long to attack the ZFP?

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There is some indication that the ZFP were in touch with the Chenjesu briefly, just before the hammer came down on the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm battle lines and they were enslaved.

This is a bad assumption. There is no indication as to when the ZFP or Pkunk first had contact with the Chenjesu. You forget that the ZFP couldn't even fight off a single Kohr-Ah Marauder. In the same way that the Thraddash wouldn't have been of any significant help, the ZFP wouldn't have been of any significant help.

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The idea that the Utwig were detected by the Kohr-Ah is mentioned at least once in the game dialog. I forget exactly where; I think it may be the Melnorme, and something about them being so depressed that they simply didn't care, and welcomed oblivion.

I wish you would refresh your memory about the game. It was the Utwig themselves who mention this, not the Melnorme. The Utwig say that the Kohr-Ah came to them and suddenly attacked them. The Utwig found out how to use their ships to effectively fight the Kohr-Ah, but the Kohr-Ah ships were too numerous and it looked like they would be destroyed. But then, all of a sudden, the Kohr-Ah turned away (it is assumed that this is for the doctrinal conflict).

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I maintain that the Pkunk were discovered late in the war by the Chenjesu, similarly to the ZFP. Otherwise they would have played a role; they show a willingness to fight for the "lesser yang" the SC2, so there's no reason to think they would refuse in SC1... Unless their rejection from the Alliance was contingent on keeping the Yehat as a member race, in which case, things likely wouldn't play out much differently.

If you recall, the Pkunk would not join the Captain in a formal alliance, only offering spiritual guidance. Again, you assume that the Pkunk would definitely help if they were known. If that was the case, they would have surely helped in the final defense of the Chenjesu homeworld at least. You also forget that the Chenjesu couldn't find the Pkunk and ZFP when they were nearly defeated and then just happen to mention them to the other alliance races.

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The Androsynth weren't in contact with anyone, nor did anyone else know where they were. Barring a chance encounter (which could go very poorly if it's with an Earthling Cruiser), they're on their own.

There is a possibility that with their advanced technology, the Androsynth would be able to detect the massive conflict and volunteer to help against the impending threat of destruction.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 27, 2009, 04:53:41 pm
I finally found the dialog page again. Maybe now I can speak with the authority you so crave.

Draxas, I think you're forcing your assumptions on your opinion, and some of your assumptions are false or irrelevant.

Maybe so. Only in places where things are not clearly spelled out, which are pretty much open to interpretation. In that case, who decides what is false or irrelevant? There's no evidence either way.

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I'm not sure if the Kzer-Za simply didn't know about the ZFP, considered them such a low priority threat that they ignored them, or if they simply achieved spaceflight such a short time ago that the Kzer-Za were already tied up in the Doctrinal Conflict. I tend to lean toward the latter two.

There is no indication that the Ur-Quan ever found the ZFP and it was also stated by the ZFP that the two races never found their homeworld, only their colony planets. If that isn't convincing enough, you should notice that upon seeing the planet, a Kohr-Ah ship started attacking the ZFP homeworld in an attempt to exterminate the species. If the Ur-Quan had known where the ZFP were, there is no reason the Kohr-Ah wouldn't know, so why did they wait so long to attack the ZFP?

If both races had found colonies, then both knew of their existence. It's not too much of a stretch to think that they would ignore them for the time being (though collateral damage against their colonies only furthers both Ur-Quan agendas). The lone Kohr-Ah seems to be a straggler, and having found another ZFP world (presumably, it would make no difference whether it was the homeworld or not to the Kohr-Ah) and no Kzer-Za around to engage in combat, set about following the Eternal Doctrine. There's no reason not to assume that both races know exactly where the ZFP are, and leave them alone because they are too busy to deal with them currently, and the ZFP are no threat.

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There is some indication that the ZFP were in touch with the Chenjesu briefly, just before the hammer came down on the Chenjesu - Mmrnhrm battle lines and they were enslaved.

This is a bad assumption. There is no indication as to when the ZFP or Pkunk first had contact with the Chenjesu. You forget that the ZFP couldn't even fight off a single Kohr-Ah Marauder. In the same way that the Thraddash wouldn't have been of any significant help, the ZFP wouldn't have been of any significant help.

The Alliance was desperate, and would have gladly accepted help from any race, significant or not. Only the Ur-Quan really had the luxury of having such overwhelming might that they could tell their weaker "allies" to stay home and not worry about the war because they can handle it.

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The idea that the Utwig were detected by the Kohr-Ah is mentioned at least once in the game dialog. I forget exactly where; I think it may be the Melnorme, and something about them being so depressed that they simply didn't care, and welcomed oblivion.

I wish you would refresh your memory about the game. It was the Utwig themselves who mention this, not the Melnorme. The Utwig say that the Kohr-Ah came to them and suddenly attacked them. The Utwig found out how to use their ships to effectively fight the Kohr-Ah, but the Kohr-Ah ships were too numerous and it looked like they would be destroyed. But then, all of a sudden, the Kohr-Ah turned away (it is assumed that this is for the doctrinal conflict).

So very sorry my memory is a bit faulty. I'll try to acquire a more encyclopedic knowledge of the game dialog from now on. Please forgive me? ::)

And so my review of the dialog puts another nail in the coffin for the Utwig - Supox holding back the Kohr-Ah in any meaningful way. As they say themselves any time they discuss their battles against the Kohr-Ah, "losses were high." There is no way the two of them could hold off the entire, undistracted armada on their own (since any other races they would know about would be exterminated by then). In fact, the Kohr-Ah know of the Utwig not only because of the Burvixese, but because the Utwig themselves tried to initiate contact with the Kohr-Ah. It seems pretty obvious that they are going to be an early target in light of that.

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I maintain that the Pkunk were discovered late in the war by the Chenjesu, similarly to the ZFP. Otherwise they would have played a role; they show a willingness to fight for the "lesser yang" the SC2, so there's no reason to think they would refuse in SC1... Unless their rejection from the Alliance was contingent on keeping the Yehat as a member race, in which case, things likely wouldn't play out much differently.

If you recall, the Pkunk would not join the Captain in a formal alliance, only offering spiritual guidance. Again, you assume that the Pkunk would definitely help if they were known. If that was the case, they would have surely helped in the final defense of the Chenjesu homeworld at least. You also forget that the Chenjesu couldn't find the Pkunk and ZFP when they were nearly defeated and then just happen to mention them to the other alliance races.

I can't see why the Pkunk wouldn't help. Besides their spiritual guidance, they also grant "crass, material offerings" in the form of ships fairly frequently. It's also worth noting that they are embroiled in a war with the Ilwrath during SC2, which might be a contributing factor as to why they won't lend more substantial support to the New Alliance. Since the Ilwrath only moved after the end of the old Alliance, the Pkunk wouldn't have been fighting anyone during the events of SC1. The only reason to believe that they wouldn't have lent a hand against the "larger yang" is because it was too late to matter.

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The Androsynth weren't in contact with anyone, nor did anyone else know where they were. Barring a chance encounter (which could go very poorly if it's with an Earthling Cruiser), they're on their own.

There is a possibility that with their advanced technology, the Androsynth would be able to detect the massive conflict and volunteer to help against the impending threat of destruction.

They certainly didn't detect (or simply ignored) the massive conflict that was going on before SC1, while the Ur-Quan were enslaving their neighbors, until the Ur-Quan decided to target them directly. Why would this be different?

.....

Look, at this point, we're just debating semantics. I don't think there's much left to contribute here anymore.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 27, 2009, 09:07:10 pm
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And so my review of the dialog puts another nail in the coffin for the Utwig - Supox holding back the Kohr-Ah in any meaningful way. As they say themselves any time they discuss their battles against the Kohr-Ah, "losses were high." There is no way the two of them could hold off the entire, undistracted armada on their own (since any other races they would know about would be exterminated by then). In fact, the Kohr-Ah know of the Utwig not only because of the Burvixese, but because the Utwig themselves tried to initiate contact with the Kohr-Ah. It seems pretty obvious that they are going to be an early target in light of that.

I agree that they are doomed, but I disagree that what happened when they attacked the Kohr-Ah is a good comparison. If you take a look, the Utwig actually accepted all casualties handed to them by the Kzer-Za, resulting in increased casualties. So the Utwig would likely be able to put up a great fight against the Kohr-Ah before they were exterminated.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 28, 2009, 12:05:01 am
Until you realize that the Kohr-Ah aren't taking casualties from the Kzer-Za either. I'd say that bodes ill for the Utwig & Supox, personally.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 28, 2009, 01:18:43 am
OK, let's rethink the scenario. This time, I'll assume the Kohr-Ah don't detect the ZFP.

First, the Bervixese are exterminated swiftly.

Next, the Kohr-Ah move on to cleanse the Utwig. Since the Kzer-Za don't arrive, the Utwig and Supox are exterminated, leaving behind the precursor bomb. However, the Kohr-Ah sustain great casualties.

The Kohr-Ah move next into Druuge space, swiftly exterminating the species.

The Mycon are next. Having no contact with anyone, the Mycon are unable to protect themselves and are swiftly exterminated along with the Syreen. The Yehat and VUX notice that something strange is happening on radar in that region of space, so they send exploration vessels. Also, the Yehat, fearing invasion, immediately prepare for war. ZEX proposes this too, but the VUX species sees no reason for it.

When the Kohr-Ah strike down the scout vessels and their signals are lost, the VUX immediately blame the Yehat for their ship's destruction. The Yehat, however, do not believe that a lone VUX scout could ever defeat a Yehat warrior, and instead assume there is a greater threat of some kind. They immediately turn their focus entirely to preparing for war, stopping many activities.

The Kohr-Ah arrive at the Yehat homeworld, and a battle ensues. The Yehat notice that they are losing after only a few hours, and send out a distress signal.

The distress signal first reaches the VUX, who refuse to help. However, they start preparing for war so that they do not suffer the same fate as the Yehat.

The next race the signal reaches is the Androsynth. Having advanced technology, they are able to translate and read the message. They immediately prepare for war to defend against the impending threat.

Next the signal reaches the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm. They immediately prepare for war and send some ships to help the Yehat.

By the time the races are ready for war and the Chenjesu ships arrive, the Yehat have already been exterminated. The Kohr-Ah move into Shofixti space, which the Chenjesu ships help to guard. But their efforts are in vain, and the Kohr-Ah succeed. However, the Shofixti use the same tactic as last time, detonating the bomb device in their star, causing massive damage to the Kohr-Ah army.

Next, the Kohr-Ah move into VUX space. By this time the Androsynth are finished preparing for war, and in the interest of their own protection, they rush over to where the Kohr-Ah seem to be headed. They manage to make it in time to lend a hand in defending the VUX from the Kohr-Ah, but once again their efforts are in vain. The VUX are exterminated. However, due to the combined might of ZEX's tactics and the Androsynth assistance, significant damage is dealt to the Kohr-Ah army. At this point the Kohr-Ah army is as much as 40% less than when they first entered this region of space.

The Kohr-Ah move next to the Androsynth homeworld. By this time, the Chenjesu has managed to form an alliance with the Humans. The combined Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm and Human forces move toward the general direction of Androsynth space (they of course don't really know where they are) and just barely manage to join in the defense of the Androsynth homeworld. This time, they manage to stall the Kohr-Ah for a significant amount of time due to the damage the Kohr-Ah fleet has recieved. The same Precursor factory is found during this stall as in the normal story, and a ship is built.

Eventually, about the same time that the Precursor factory is found, the Kohr-Ah defeat and exterminate the Androsynth. They move on next to Earth, which is defended by Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm forces. Once again the Kohr-Ah is stalled, though the stall is shorter than the previous one due to casualties from the Androsynth defense. After a few days, the first Precursor ship arrives and is fit with new weapons and other modules. It is then sent out to do combat, and it shows to be effective against Kohr-Ah ships. Many resources are immediately transported to Vela to build more ships of this type while every existing ship is used in an attempt to protect Earth. The Arilou appear and suddenly help in the defense of Earth.

When the Precursor ships arrive, almost all the Earthguard forces are eliminated and the Kohr-Ah are bombarding Earth's surface. The Precursor ships attack the Kohr-Ah ships, but it is too late. There are too many, and the Kohr-Ah finish exterminating the Humans. However, the Precursor ships still fight anyway, and manage to eliminate a large portion of fighters. The original Kohr-Ah force at this point has been reduced by almost 60%.

The final contingent of Precursor ships is sent to the Chenjesu homeworld just in time for the defense of the world. But the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm are exterminated anyway, with the Kohr-Ah once again sustaining massive casualties, adding up now to a 65% reduction since the Kohr-Ah started.

The Kohr-Ah arrive at the Spathi homeworld. The Spathi, not wanting to die, make an outstanding effort against the Kohr-Ah, and manage to do substantial damage before they are exterminated. Kohr-Ah have at this point lost 67% of their fleet.

At this time, the Kohr-Ah move in the direction that the Precursor ships came from. They find the colony at Vela and exterminate the Human, Chenjesu, and Mmrnmhrm stragglers there. They have lost around 70% of their fleet so far.

Next they exterminate the Umgah, who offer almost no resistance, and the Thraddash who are just as weak. They travel spinward (I think it's spinward; they would travel "northwest" according to the starmap) and encounter the Kzer-Za in some other region of space (probably close by). The Kohr-Ah lose badly due to massive casualties sustained, and the Kzer-Za doctrine remains dominant.

The reason I figure the Kohr-Ah would sustain so many casualties is because the species simply don't want to die, so they will fight to the death. In the war with the Kzer-Za, many races submitted to the Kzer-Za, making it much easier for them. The obvious example is the Spathi.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on May 28, 2009, 03:54:40 pm
Ha. Haha. Hahahahaha!

There are so many things wrong with that scenario, I'm not even going to acknowledge it as even a remote possibility.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Lukipela on May 28, 2009, 05:53:42 pm
Since you took out the ship-building computer at Vela and used it to pilot your ship, how do you propose to make more ships? And where do you get those effective weapons when you don't have access to the Melnorme who evacuated long ago?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on May 28, 2009, 09:15:32 pm
Since you took out the ship-building computer at Vela and used it to pilot your ship, how do you propose to make more ships? And where do you get those effective weapons when you don't have access to the Melnorme who evacuated long ago?

I was referring to Chenjesu weapons being fit to the precursor ship. But I forgot about the computer being ripped out, so the scenario changes, and less damage is done to the Kohr-Ah fleet. Otherwise it's the same.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 13, 2009, 06:07:44 pm
    Reading this thread from the beginning, I found several things to respond to, but seem to have forgotten most of them. Oh well...

The Mycon seem more technology advanced, which probably means stronger hyperspace broadcasts.
I'm not convinced the Mycon use hyperwave broadcasts at all....

the demise of Earth would have ensured that the Arilou would stay out of the conflict.
I don't think the Arilou would allow this to happen so easily.

About the arilou - they are outside the timeline , so *when* they discover Humans destroyed , they would *rewind* time and warn humans and whoever they see fit maybe even   before the Kohr-Ah fleet reaches this quadrant .
I'm pretty sure the Arilou are not able to do that.

Now... the Burvixese are the first race in the sector to be exterminated. Consider the state of the sector at that time.
  • The Utwig and the Supox are much the same as in SC2, except that the Utwig still have a functional Ultron.
  • The Druuge are back in their sphere of influence, probably with their hyperwave casters still silenced.
  • The Mycon are in their area of space. I don't know if they use hyperwave signals for communication.
  • The Syreen are, depending on the exact timeframe, either still on Syra or just heading out from Syra in their habitat fleet.
  • The VUX, Yehat, and Shofixti are much as in SC1&2.
  • The Androsynth are still around, as in SC1, and the Orz are unaware of this area of space. I have no idea if the Taalo could do anything; probably not though.
  • If humans have space flight, they have only just attained it. (I mean space flight capable of travelling between planets in a reasonable time, not the Apollo mission.)
  • The Ilwrath probably don't even have space flight capability. If I recall correctly, the Ur-Quan were responsible for giving them space flight.
  • The Chenjesu are in the Procyon(?) area, and the Mmrnmhrm are just "north" of them.
  • The Pkunk, Thraddash, Umgah, and Spathi are much as in SC2.
  • The Arilou are watching from afar.
  • The Melnorme are probably in the sector, since they knew about the Druuge's deal with the Utwig.
  • The Zoq-Fot-Pik are much as in SC2, but it's possible they aren't yet capable of space flight. If not, they would have no colonies.
  • Did I miss anyone?

The Kohr-Ah would march upon the Utwig first. The Utwig would fall, but not without putting a significant dent in the Kohr-Ah forces. Their ships are superior to the Marauders, and they also have a Precursor bomb which could do major damage (though I don't think it would wipe out a third of the Kohr-Ah fleet as it did at Delta Gorno – detonating it normally would presumably be less effective than detonating it on the edge of a star). Once the Utwig have fallen, the Supox would fall soon after.

But wait – the Utwig have the Ultron. Might it not be possible that the Ultron will instruct them to send scouts to other races in the sector? Or possibly send some ships away where they will be safe in the event of a Kohr-Ah victory? Or maybe even both. Suppose the Utwig contact the Chenjesu, the Yehat, the Androsynth, and possibly the VUX. This gives a chance for the Alliance to form before the Kohr-Ah are even aware of it. If they're smart, they'll wait for the Kohr-Ah rather than going to meet them across the galaxy in Utwig space.

So, once the Supox have fallen, it's hard to say who will be next. There are two possibilities as I see it: either they go toward the Thraddash, stopping off at the Zoq-Fot-Pik if they find them, and then move on to the Umgah. (The Slylandro will remain undetected since I'm pretty sure they haven't yet purchased their Probe, and that's the only thing that would draw the Kohr-Ah's attention to them.) OR, they will exterminate the Druuge and then move on to the Mycon. I'll call them Scenario A and Scenario B, respectively.

In Scenario A, they come rushing through Umgah space only to come up against the Chenjesu forces, backed by the Mmrnmhrm and the Yehat and possibly even the Utwig scouts. The Androsynth may also join, but I doubt the VUX or the Spathi will. They will take significant losses, but the Chenjesu will eventually be defeated. At this point, they'll wipe out the Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, and Ilwrath homeworlds, while the Yehat retreat to defend their own area of space, probably accompanied by Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm stragglers and maybe even by humans and Androsynth.

I think the Spathi will probably survive. Some people have pointed out that they'll probably hide and be exterminated, but I think it's more likely that they'll simply flee their homeworld to escape the Kohr-Ah. If they go back towards Arcturus, there's a chance the Kohr-Ah will never even know they existed. And with the exception of the Pkunk, their ships are the fastest in the sector, so they wouldn't have a problem evading the Kohr-Ah if they were discovered.

If the humans have joined, the next battle would probably be at Earth. The Arilou would be helpful here, but defeat is inevitable. The Kohr-Ah would probably take significant losses again from both the remaining Chenjesu and from the human nukes, but when it's clear there's no way to win I think the Arilou would spirit away the humans right under their noses, possibly to Unzervalt, so that when the Kohr-Ah finally arrive at Earth they find it abandoned. Then the remaining forces would retreat to Delta Gorno. They would probably have some time to get organized while the Kohr-Ah turn against the VUX, suffering still more losses against ZEX's superior tactics. However, despite this, the VUX would fall fairly quickly, and then the Kohr-Ah would suffer the greatest losses yet when Delta Gorno goes supernova. Then the Yehat, also greatly reduced by the war, would make a last stand at their homeworld. Once they are defeated, the Kohr-Ah would make short work of the remaining races: Mycon, Syreen, and Druuge. Oh, and the Androsynth as well. Then the Kohr-Ah would go on to initiate the Doctrinal Conflict, and with the losses they've suffered at the hands of the Alliance they would lose.

Oh, wait, I forgot the Pkunk. Let's suppose they join the Yehat in their last stand, and are defeated and destroyed along with them. So, the surviving races are: Arilou, humans, Spathi, and possibly some Utwig and Supox stragglers. The humans only survive due to the Arilou's help, and even so they are probably decimated. The Spathi survive due to their cowardice. Perhaps once the Kohr-Ah have moved on the Spathi and humans will both return to their homeworlds. Oh, and it's up in the air whether the Zoq-Fot-Pik survive. Probably not though.

In Scenario B, they come rushing through Mycon space, also destroying the Syreen in passing, and clash with the VUX. (Remember they have already suffered significant losses against the Utwig.) ZEX's tactics are quite effective, but in the end the VUX fall. I think they would turn to the Yehat next, rather than the Androsynth. The Yehat would be backed by the Chenjesu, Shofixti, Mmrnmhrm, possibly Umgah, possibly humans, and possibly Pkunk. The presence or absence of Umgah is irrelevant; they're pretty much useless. In this scenario, I think the Yehat would be destroyed before the Shofixti's last stand at Delta Gorno, destroying a third of the Kohr-Ah fleet. The Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm would retreat to Earth with any Yehat stragglers, and the Arilou would appear. They would hold off the Kohr-Ah for a little while, long enough for the Arilou to spirit away a good chunk of Earth's population. Then the survivors (primarily Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm, with possibly a few Yehat or humans left, and maybe some Pkunk) would retreat to Chenjesu space, and eventually be defeated (though not without significant losses to the Kohr-Ah). Once the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm are gone, the Ilwrath would be destroyed, followed by the Umgah and the Androsynth. The Androsynth would probably resist fairly well, but only delaying the inevitable. Then all that's left is the Thraddash and, if they find them, the Zoq-Fot-Pik. So the end result is the same: humans survive due to Arilou intervention, Spathi survive due to cowardice, and a few Utwig may survive due to foresight. And again the Kohr-Ah will lost the Doctrinal conflict.




So. While the details may differ, I think there are two things that are almost certain if the Kohr-Ah had arrived before the Kzer-Za. The first is that the human race will survive. The second is that the Kohr-Ah will lose the Doctrinal Conflict due to the losses they have taken from the races in this sector.[/list]


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on June 14, 2009, 03:06:22 pm
I'm not going this discussion again, but I just wanted to poitn out that if the Kohr-ah are good at record keeping, then they know about the Slylandro.

The brown Ur-quan have met the Slylandro in the distant past. Just FYI. :)


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on June 14, 2009, 03:29:52 pm
I'm not going this discussion again, but I just wanted to poitn out that if the Kohr-ah are good at record keeping, then they know about the Slylandro.

The brown Ur-quan have met the Slylandro in the distant past. Just FYI. :)

I don't think they would waste their time trying to destroy the Slylandro. The Slylandro's structure makes it impossible to become a threat anyways.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Alvarin on June 14, 2009, 03:47:18 pm
Quote
I don't think they would waste their time trying to destroy the Slylandro. The Slylandro's structure makes it impossible to become a threat anyways.

This might be true regarding Kzer-Za , But Kohr-Ah would muke them just in case .
The "not being able to become a threat" is also questionable - how can anyone know , if in few millenia they would not develop mental skill rivalling the Dnyarri's , and be able to control the universe from the convenience of their couch home planet ?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 14, 2009, 09:14:59 pm
Hmm, good point... maybe the Slylandro would be killed too.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 19, 2009, 06:39:22 am
A couple other things to consider- Both Ur-Quan sub-species have been traveling around the Galaxy for a VERY long time. Since the Doctrinal conflict is occuring in 'our' sector, or, "quandrant", if you will, its possible that the remainder of the Galaxy has either been subjugated by the Kzer-Za or annihilated by the Kohr-Ah.

According to the canonical timeline, the Kohr-Ah is new to the sector, it isn't likely that they have as much capability to produce ships as they have elsewhere. It isn't likely that their fleet at the end of the First Doctrinal war was never, at some point, rebuilt (obviously) and expanded. The Kohr-Ah aren't particulaly social creatures, but they DO utilize incredibly functional hierarchical social structures. They need supplies, production facilities, and a thriving economy to maintain the production of their ships and culture*. So, when either Ur-Quan sub-species moves on from a sector that they've dealt with, do they abandon it completely or leave some kind of trail behind?

* When you present the Words to the Kohr-Ah, they will outline the philosophical paradox of their Eternal Doctrine. This to me says wonders for how meticulous they must be in actual implementation.

The Kzer-Za didn't BRING any Battle Thralls with them, this implies that they subjugate local alien races to conquer other local alien races. Some degree of hierarchical control would need to remain in place to ensure the implementation of their doctrine. The Passion for maintaining their hierarchy cannot be thrown in to question, they don't even lie. For the Path of Now and Forever to be at all functional, much of the Ur-Quan race and at least a marginal number of ships as well as production facilities would need to be spread all across the galaxy. Based on this assumption, it is likely that the Kohr-Ah operate in a similar pattern, establishing some way to maintain oversight on a territory once it has been cleansed. The keyword here is continuation, which is the whole point of implementing a Doctrine in the first place. It is highly probable that the primary production capabilities of the both the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za lie in other quandrants of space and are VASTLY superior to ANYTHING in our quandrant of space. Why? Because they've been at it for a very long time and over a very large span of territory. It is true that a majority of their fleet would be in our quadrant, but their infrastructure would most certainly not be.

As a sidenote I'd like to suggest that both the text at the end of the 3DO version and PC version are both accurate. The production capabilities of the Chmmr being so advanced on their own homeworld, that they would be greater than any Ur-Quan in the quadrant. Supposing that the total amount of battling after the destruction of the Sa-Matra takes no more than 3 weeks AND the remaining forces retreat to the clouds of Magellan (I don't think you can actually have one without the other), then there is no inconsistency. If Talana says that they Chmmr did it in 3 weeks, I'm sure they could have. Consider that they Yehat have already covered ground up to Crateris, I'm sure that the Chmmr wouldn't be far behind. IIRC the Chmmr say something about how the destruction of the Sa-Matra will be their signal to strike. If you follow the events in the game as logically as possible (that is, as information is revealed), the LAST thing you do is repair the Ultron and get the bomb, which provides the Chmmr ample opportunity to begin producing Avatars (whether Humans and Chmmr have been producing ships or not isn't particularly important, the Kzer-Za are clearly distracted enough, even though the strategic redeployment of the earthguard defenses had been going on for some time).

Back to the alternative timeline, if the Kohr-Ah came first, everything would be dead. For two major reasons. Most races act in their own self-interest. Kohr-Ah doesn't have anything that it must defend. So the more the Kohr-Ah fleet divides its forces, the more diminuation amongst any alliance there would be, the less likely anything could be accomplished. Even if alliance forces danced between planetary defenses from one race to another as Kohr-Ah feigned attacks, all that would happen is exposure to one's own homeworld. Utwig/Supox/Thraddash/Ilwrath/ZFP/Orz/Umgah/Spathi/Mycon/Druuge are all either too weak, disinterested, or too far away to have any meaningful importance in an alliance. AFAIK the Mycon are 'newer' to the quadrant, having displaced the Syreen relatively shortly before the events of SC2, so no one is really aware of them. The only difference between the AFS vs Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah would be the Androsynth and the Vux, neither of which would leave their own homeworlds defenseless to protect anyone else, as it is outside of their self-interest and they are so close to threatening space. Supposing that any amount of damage was inflicted on the Kohr-Ah fleet, their reinforcements would be more than capable of finishing the job (even though their reinforcements may take longer to arrive to the front). Everyone else is too isolated.

The Doctrinal War wouldn't have differed much regardless of who got where when. The Ur-Quan are absolutely stronger than everyone else could ever hope to be. The only possibility that any other race ever had was the Doctrinal Conflict. Without the special conditions available, no race or group of races would have any real chance. Even after the Ur-Quan leaves (presuming they do more leaving than fighting, as implied by the 3 weeks), imagine what they are leaving to. On the one half we have an extensive and diverse series of battle-ready races with the capability of bolstering Ur-Quan forces to an extensive degree, and a trail of NOTHING but Kohr-Ah. The only thing the events in SC2 proves is that DIFFERING in doctrine is their only weakness, not that one is better than the other.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 19, 2009, 03:13:54 pm
AFAIK the Mycon are 'newer' to the quadrant, having displaced the Syreen relatively shortly before the events of SC2,
No, it was earlier than that, since the Syreen were in the original alliance.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: UAF on June 19, 2009, 07:37:01 pm
Races in SC2 tend to not know much about other races beyond their immediate neighbours.
Not much suggests that the Mycon are new to the area. We only know for sure that they (relatively) recently found the Syreen homeworld and destroyed it (Some time before SC1).

The only thing that might suggest that the Mycon are new is the following logic:
If the Mycon were created by another race that had hyperspace technology, then the Mycon had hypersace since the day they were made.
If they have memories from 50,000 years ago, then they were made AT LEAST 50,000 years ago.
If they had 50,000 years to find worlds suitable to their deep children, why didn't they find Syra sooner.
But if they are new to this sector, then it explains it.


Other options are:
1) The Mycon were created by a race without HS tech. They only developed it recently. (Means they are not Precursor constructs, their creators had advanced biology knowledge but not as advanced physics).
2) The Mycon didn't turn life bearing worlds into shattered worlds until recently. This fits with theories that this is some kind of problem with them, and not part of their original design.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 20, 2009, 01:47:50 am
Yeah, I meant prior to the events of SC1 (whoops!), though if something is prior to the events of SC2 that doesn't mean that it isn't also prior to the events of SC1. Let me outline my reasoning.

Quote
I am Dugee
I am the purity monitor
I choose what buds are permitted to mature
and which must be eradicated
I died of general misfunction 57,283 years ago.

The Deep Children!
Spears of light in the darkness!
Their discarded husks speak of joy to come.

I have chosen my offsprings' memories carefully from my set of remembrances
the sweet and warm times of my existence and those of my parents' parents' parents
the bits of a million lifetimes coalesced into a birth gift of complete awareness.

Firstly- Including Dugee's generation, there have been at LEAST 4 (bare with me- he says "parent's parent's parents". Brahe is where the Deep Children are maturing, implied by the fact that Dugee is responsible for choosing which memories to pass on and which buds are permitted to mature.

I think we can assume that the primary mode of Mycon reproduction is via shattering worlds and cultivating more Deep Children. "Their discarded husks speak of joy to come" means that planets with Husks on them are not mature enough to warrant a "Purity Monitor" yet, but are in the process of maturation.

Quote
Though the Syreen hate the Ur-Quan with a vengeance, they are unlikely to offer you assistance
unless you reveal to them the truth behind the tragedy of their original homeworld, Syra
which was destroyed by the birth of a Mycon `Deep Child' a century ago.

Quote
When we first met your people, we'd been wandering through the stars for almost seventy five years
ever since the death of Syra... our home planet.

Great gods! These fragments... they are IDENTICAL to the debris we found near the punctures on Syra!
We never guessed that the fragments might be organic!
To have survived re-entry!... nothing organic would remain!... unless
UNLESS, it was genetically constructed for this purpose!
AND ONLY THE MYCONS POSSESS THIS CAPABILITY!!

There is no Purity Monitor on Syra and there are empty husks. Either the Deep Child(ren) has not reached a level of Maturation necessary to warrant a Purity Monitor, OR they abandoned the planet after the Deep Children finished spawning Mycon (It's possible that one large Deep Child has many buds, the Child is given memories and the Buds mature into Mycons). There are two keywords here- Melnorme explain that the planet was destroyed by the BIRTH of Deep Children. The Syreen hung around long enough to know that these fragments are IDENTICAL to the debris found on Syra.

The Syreen basically saw the same thing you did (edit: on syra's surface). So while the Deep Children have been born on Syra, they have most likely not reached a level of Maturation necessary to warrant a defense fleet or a Purity Monitor- IE they have been born but are still in some kind of hibernation. The empty egg-casings are the same as the things that the Syreen detected. Has the face of Syra changed much over a Century (aside from becoming more volcanic)?

Quote
and the tough, fungal mats discarded by the Mycon Deep Children
as they penetrate a planet's crust.

This implies that the Deep Children are born and then penetrate the planet, reinforcing the idea that they're still germinating, otherwise the Mycon may have a slightly more active interest in the planet. On the SC2 map, the Mycon SOI focuses around Brahe/Scorpii and just barely occupies Copernicus (Syra). Their germination period is most likely very long. It is also likely that while the Deep Children are germinating, they have nothing to fear because of the natural protection that the planet provides. It isn't until a Purity Monitor is necessary that they would need to take an active interest in planetary defense.

Quote
Beta Copernicus I (600.8 : 263.1) - original Syreen homeworld, Syra
Gamma Brahe I (635.4 : 272.9)
Gamma Scorpii I (647.9 : 206.2)
Beta Brahe I (639.5 : 231.2) - location of the Sun Device
Epsilon Scorpii I (629.1 : 220.8) - Mycon homeworld

The Egg Case Fragments can be obtained from any Shattered World except Epsilon Scorpii I and Beta Brahe I.

Quote
As they approached, their ships broke combat formation
in preparation for their hideous implanting ceremony.
We waited until they were fully dispersed around the planet then we attacked!
The standard Mycon tactic would have been to speed out of orbit using a gravity whip maneuver
but the Podships refused to abandon their slow-moving Deep Children spore pods.
They remained in the gravity well, and WE SLICED THEM TO RIBBONS!

There are 5 Shattered worlds in Mycon space, only two of which have active Mycon fleets around them. This implies that the others are either still germinating, or that some have been abandoned. At this point, basically all the information regarding their reproduction cycles are on the table. The Mycon are very protective of their Deep Children, as implied by the Organon incident, so it isn't likely that they find a Shattered world useless once the Deep Children have emerged. It is more likely that reproduction continues as the Deep Child produces more Mycons. Why? Remember, there have been at LEAST 4 generations of Mycons over a 57,283 EY (earth-year) period. There are only TWO active planets in Mycon space, one of which is a FIFTH generation. There are 5 planets, so it is concievable that this is their fifth homeworld and fifth generation. Inductively, if Syra was birthed 100 years ago according to the Melnorme and Talana's time-table and, again working within the confines of 5 generations of Mycons, that means each generation of Mycon is born about every 10,000 EY (assuming that Syra was abandoned after the complete maturation of that generation). If Syra was abandoned 100 years after Deep Child maturation and continuation of the Mycons, then Mycon only reproduce at about 10% of their potential efficiency. This is ASSUMING that they colonize only one planet at a time! Which they obviously do NOT, considering they are apt to leave Brahe's Purity Monitor vulnerable as they seek out a new homeworld on Organon. The Mycon's primary interest is perpetuation and colonization. They don't really have to worry about a planet once a Deep Child begins germinating because the planet itself is a protective shell. Moving their entire fleet to secure a new planet leaving behind germinating shattered worlds fits their character profile.

Dugee only explicitly states that there have been AT LEAST 4 generations. It's possible that there have been much more. If the Deep Child germinates and matures to the point in which the Mycon are prepared to abandon a Shattered World at the rate of every 100 years, then there could potentially have been close to 60 generations and 60 worlds! Of course, the extremeties aren't going to be precise by any means, but they do show that 5 planets isn't enough to satisfy the existence of 5 generations OR 57,284 EY worth of their species.

Now suppose that they are a fan of the conquer and abandon method. Why have they stuck with the same homeworld well after they had taken Syra? If Syra was the second planet they took in the quadrant, why do they still have their original homeworld?

Conclusion:
1. They have more generations than are feasible for this quadrant of space.
2. They don't abandon completely abandon homeworlds after they have been colonized.
3. Their germination cycles, to the point of requiring a Purity Monitor, are longer than 100 years.

These three observations make it impossible for them to be native to this quadrant of space, especially considering their primary objective appears to be colonization and they only have 1 'finished' planet, 1 deep child planet, and 3 germinating planets. There's one assumption in my reasoning that could void the argument- that is how generations are defined. Are they defined per Deep Child? Are the Deep Children given memories or are just the Mycon Buds? It is likely that the Mycon's collective memory gives them all a very similar sense of identity. This means that the memories of all Mycon are relatively up to date with each other. All buds from a Deep Child will have the same memories and thus the same number of generations. This implies that there is one generation per Deep Child or that there are multiple generational cycles per Deep Child, but since they probably seek to have consistent memory amongst all Mycon (implied by the name 'purity monitor'), it is likely that the Purity Monitors are responsible for the continuation of memory. Since you need NEW Purity Monitors per colony, it is likely that the Purity Monitor needs to replicate to produce more Purity Monitors for more colonies. This means that ALL Mycon possess ONLY the memories of Purity Monitors. For there to be any variation in memory requires deviation in memory of Purity Monitors which would require seperation, IE becoming a Purity Monitor for a NEW Deep Child. This would mean that any variation with a Parent's Memory from a Purity Monitor would exist only because they began Monitoring a different planet- Because of how the Mycons think of themself as a single entity (edit: via living memory through the children- not Hive mind quite exactly), but recognize that they are a continuation of their parents as opposed to being a continuation of themselves, it is possible that they think of parents as being seperate from themselves to ANY degree BECAUSE their memories differentiate at some point (edit: because there are no "bloodlines" of memory). It is also somewhat important to note that the Mycon on Scorpii don't refer to themselves as Purity Monitors.

Even if this part of the argument is weak, the Mycon have 3 planets germinating in this quandrant, 1 Deep Child planet and 1 proper homeworld and at least 57,283 EYs of existence. If their germination cycles are short, and their idea of 'parents' is every subsequent Bud- consider that their SOI and shattered worlds expand as per distance from the center as if to imply a source and timeline. If 100 years ago they discovered Syra, comparing the distance and remembering that they dont wait for full maturity, they'd've had most of their space colonized within 150 years ago. They go to Organon approximately 100 years after Syra, they have no interest in waiting any period of time for colonization, they find a planet and they drop a Deep Child, presumably ASAP. If they scout their SOI for new planets, they will because it is their top priority, then Brahe has developed comparatively way too fast. If Beta Brahe was discovered first from Epsilon Scorpii, Gamma Scorpii second, Gamma Brahe third, and Syra fourth- the difference in time between BB and GS is so minimal, that I don't think ES wouldn't also have a Purity Monitor. Also, that they have 3 and intend on making a 4th planet begin to germinate, there aren't any apparent inhibitions as to the rate at which they can spread Deep Children. This fills in most of the holes of the previous argument and expands on the 3 main points, giving greater support to to all 3. I think the evidence is strong enough. It isn't the most important detail, but each of the origin stories are very interesting. The third most obscure and bizarre are the Mycon.

--------------

If Mycon were sentient 57,283 EYs ago (having had the ability to pass on memories), they have been, let me rephrase, SAPIENT longer than any other species (that we know of) in our Quadrant (with exception to races that aren't there). Their Podships appear to be of Genetic Manufacturing and part of their passed on memory- at which point did they acquire HS travel and begin colonization? If after they acquired HST and suddenly colonized 3-4 more worlds, I think that may be beyond their production capabilities. The Mycon are suggested to be constructs (of course, they may have evolved to the point that they could manufacture themselves, they only 'seem' to be constructs because they are so genetically perfect) whose sole purpose is terraforming. IF that is their sole purpose AND their programming goes bunk with Juffo-Wup 57,283 EYA, then they'd already have HST because there's no way they could perpetuate without it! This of course implies that they weren't carried and used to build planets, but if that is the case than any kind of sentience (as opposed to sapience) would be unnecessary, and it is probably unlikely that they'd have needed sentience in the first place. The only reason why they would have programming is such that they would initiate terraforming procedures on their own. The only way they could do that is with HST, so that MUST predate the time-frame in, again, which their programming goes bunk. So- they go from sentience to sapience and become the Juffo-Wuppies around 57,283 EYA, or whenever they possess the ability to pass on memories (probably longer ago). This brings up the question- Are they constructs? If they are, then they are almost definitely new to this area of space.

There is one other interesting feature about the Mycon to consider.

Quote
As far as we know, the Mycon are the only race to seek out actively the Ur-Quan
in order to become combat slaves.

Why would they do this? There are plenty of possible explanations, the most important thing to take from this quote is that the Mycon went to the Kzer-Za FIRST. The Kzer-Za released a hunting cry as they entered the territory, alerting everyone in Hypersace with Hyperwave Broadcasting technology to their presence. Looking at the Star Map, if the Mycon migrated from anywhere, it would be from the direction of where the Kohr-Ah came from (considering that their SOI most likely originates from 'that' region). Is it possible that the Mycon already know about the Doctrinal Conflict and have managed to avoid total annihilation by the hands of the Kohr-Ah? Seeking out the Kzer-Za for protection under the Path of Now And Forever, knowing that if they stuck near the Kzer-Za they would have no problem expanding their sphere of influence until the Doctrinal Conflict ended, and they'd need to once again defend themselves against the Kohr-Ah? This isn't very far fetched seeing as our conversations with the Mycon are as ambiguous as their origins. If they were out and about around the time of the first doctrinal conflict, it isn't impossible that they managed to determine the most ideal location in the galaxy to perpetuate. If they moved to our quadrant KNOWING that this is where the second doctrinal conflict would be, then it would also be the area of space that would give them the most time to colonize without being interrupted, and even after the Kzer-Za would come, they would know that the Kohr-Ah would arrive shortly afterwards and provide them a good distraction to continue colonization. If they were running from the Kohr-Ah's Death March knowing that this quadrant of space was ideal, given the conditions that the Doctrinal Conflict would occur here, then their actions in the game are so incredibly logical. Is it likely that they knew ALL of this? Of course not. Is it possible that they knew enough to make a decision to end up here? Definitely. I certainly think they know way more than they let on. They've had Sapience longer than anyone else in the area at least (except for Arilou/Orz/Taalo, but IDF/displaced races hardly count- the others we don't know exactly when- Chenjesu are definitely close).

This last bit is somewhat of a stretch, but I wouldn't be surprised. FF and PR3 fill niches that we don't even really think are there until they are filled. The Niche of 'crazy mushroom race that seeks to spawn under the eyes of the doctrinal conflict secretly intending to turn both into the void, knowing way more than everyone else but is completely incoherent' is aptly filled by this interpretation of the Mycon. Whatever the explanation, the Mycon KNEW that allying with the Ur-Quan was their best bet for their own self-interest. Why are they the ONLY race that does this? They KNOW that their best chance of survival is with the Kzer-Za. Whether that has to do with the logical deduction that they have more opportunities to colonize due to not being in a slave shield, or that they knew there was a greater threat to the Juffo-Wup on the way, or both, is too difficult to determine.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Son_of_Antares on June 22, 2009, 11:53:27 am
it is likely that the Kohr-Ah operate in a similar pattern, establishing some way to maintain oversight on a territory once it has been cleansed. The keyword here is continuation, which is the whole point of implementing a Doctrine in the first place. It is highly probable that the primary production capabilities of the both the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za lie in other quandrants of space

I tend to disagree. I find the Kohr-Ar more akin to some sort of spacefaring nomads than settlers of any sort. While the Kzer-Za has interest in leaving portion of their fleet within already subjugated quadrants to oversee the slaveshielded races (because IIRC they would shield even their battle-thralls after successfully pacifying opposition in their current sector of operations) it is somewhat different for KA. Their final goal is extermination and when they clean some sector of all life it would be useless to leave ships there to "guard nothing", or even more illusory, wait for a new civilization to "sprung up" on some planet.

It is more likely that they would leave some sort of satellite array/listening posts to scan local space/planets they visited, and report back anomalies to the fleet. In that way they would remain on route with their doctrine with no need to dissipate their forces. If a new "threat" would arise in an already visited sector they could just warp back a strike group to finish those fools off.

As for their manufacturing capacities who says that they have to be bound to planets/systems? Remember Homeworld? With their advanced tech, Kohr-Ar could easily have some sort of "construction fleet" that would follow their main forces and extract materials for ship assembly/repair on foot, using materials from the nearby asteroid fields etc or just using landers to collect needed minerals from planets in a way the Captain does with Vindicator. Only that they would need no remote Star Base for resource processing because they would have such facilities built in several ships for ease of use...

And with all that fear from being mind-controlled I think that it would be in their best interest to just stay on the move. They were static once in their history and the price they paid for that was dire. And they sure as hell won't allow that to happen again.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 23, 2009, 12:02:45 am
Well, consider this- their entire purpose is to essentially eliminate all sentient life in the galaxy so as to preserve Ur-Quan existence. They use hyperwave transmissions to track down their next target, but what of civilizations that aren't at that  level yet but are sapient? I don't think they'd be so half-assed as to not check every planet in every system for any possible sign of life, so it is likely that they have some method of oversight. Stations, scouts, etc- all to ensure that their doctrine was implemented properly. Also, they are very new to the quadrant, I don't think all of their manufacturing capabilities would necessarily be so quickly relocated, especially since, as per SC1- the SC universe relies primarily on mining for the supply of resources (mineral deposits in SC2 are more of a feature for good gameplay, I don't think the Kohr-Ah rely on planet landers for the majority of their income...). They have extensive experience in manual labor (designed for that purpose), so it isn't unlikely at all that they would have mines and starbases to fuel their militaristic society. If nothing else, they have to manufacture fuel. If there were ample resource deposits available for the Kohr-Ah, are there enough to fuel a fleet of their size (consider how fricken huge their fleet is...)? I doubt it, you need mines and therefore an economy. If Mauraders are produced via mitosis or however you mean to suggest, then even if there was no infrastructure elsewhere to produce them, there would at least be Mauraders for the crews that man the mines (though, tbh, I don't think a society as efficient as the Kohr-Ah would most likely have their resource gathering and manufacturing plants be vertically integrated- unless of course a singular planet was incapable of providing the necessary resources, in that case they would most likely be using starbases strategically placed in a system or between systems so as to make the method of manufacture the most efficient) and thus have a means of production. I'm not suggesting that any significant part of their combat fleet was not present in our quadrant at the end of the events of SC2, on the contrary, they wouldn't need but a few ships left behind for additional cleansing, so it isn't likely that they would have much- but none at all? They may not be nearby, but there has got to be something else out there.

Also, the main point of the doctrine is continuation! If they don't have at least a few homeworlds out there then the loss of their fleet is the very end. I don't think they're the type to leave something up to chance... though they may, they realize the paradox of the eternal doctrine, so they may truly be nihilists in that sense, but they still have to gather resources to fuel their ships.

It's doubtless that the Kzer-Za have a control structure in place- Hierarchs or what not overseeing the proper enforcement of the Path of Now and Forever.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 23, 2009, 01:52:01 am
In fact, if they know for certain that they've destroyed all species capable of space travel, they'd only need to leave one or two ships behind to cleanse those that aren't – a single ship would be able to destroy most such species, and with two or three I doubt the civilizations would be able to divert the fire from their cities as the Zoq-Fot-Pik did.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Death 999 on June 25, 2009, 06:57:50 pm
See, the thing I don't get about some of those scenarios is that you have the Kohr-ah being evenly matched against the Kzer-za (see Doctrinal war), but able to utterly comprehensively steamroll the same allies that the Kzer-za had a great deal of trouble with.

Are the Kzer-za really that bad at strategy, and only able to compete in an environment in which strategy is prohibited, like a ceremonial war?

~~~

As for the ZFP, I interpreted the outcome as being one lone Kohr-Ah vessel violating orders by taking the time to take this one race. That's why it never got help, and that's why destroying it ends the assault.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on June 25, 2009, 07:33:08 pm
See, the thing I don't get about some of those scenarios is that you have the Kohr-ah being evenly matched against the Kzer-za (see Doctrinal war), but able to utterly comprehensively steamroll the same allies that the Kzer-za had a great deal of trouble with.

Are the Kzer-za really that bad at strategy, and only able to compete in an environment in which strategy is prohibited, like a ceremonial war?

Actually, the Kzer-Za are excellent strategists; just check out their method of conquest in SC1. The issue is that by avoiding the strong to strike at the weak, they allowed the strong to band together, making more problems in the long run. However, that's not really what's at issue here.

The Kzer-Za, unlike the Kohr-Ah, hold back against their foes. Their conquest is unstoppable and inevitable, and they are quite content to take their time. Their objective is to utterly crush the spirit of every race they encounter, so as to make them realize that their only way of life is one under eternal Ur-Quan rule. As such, their "struggle" with the Alliance was simply their desire to beat the fight out of every last member until they accepted their destiny as slaves of the Ur-Quan. If the Kohr-Ah had still been a long way off, SC1 would have ended in a massive war of attrition that only the Ur-Quan had the ability to win in the end, and the Alliance would have been ground to dust under the Hierarchy's heel. As it stands, though, the upcoming Doctrinal War forced the Ur-Quan to speed up their timetable. They were forced to use the Sa-Matra to break the Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm lines to speedily conquer them, and in their haste, not only failed to destroy their spirit but also underestimated their resolve to rebel and allowed them to coexist and strategize on the same world. They similarly hurried to enslave the other Alliance races, failing to break their resolve, failing to pursue the Arilou (simply content to have them out of the way), and making a terrible strategic mistake at Delta Gorno, all because they knew that they would need time to prepare for the true battle against their brethren. Why else would so many races remain free during SC2?

The Kohr-Ah have no such compunctions. The strike swiftly, mercilessly, and (save for the Words) without explanation. They have no need to hold back, and no need to break resolve; they simply need to exterminate their targets until nothing remains.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on June 25, 2009, 07:50:04 pm
See, the thing I don't get about some of those scenarios is that you have the Kohr-ah being evenly matched against the Kzer-za (see Doctrinal war), but able to utterly comprehensively steamroll the same allies that the Kzer-za had a great deal of trouble with.

This is exactly why I favor the theory in which the Kzer-Za don't give everything they have in "slave wars". When arriving at a new sector, they send a relatively small task force to deal with the weaker races, until they've gathered a large armada of Battle Thralls. Then the armada (combined with the task force) goes on to deal with the tough nuts.

This task force would be just big enough to intimidate the Thralls so they don't revolt, and to ensure an eventual victory. Say, 30% of the armada in ship numbers, over 60% in power. The bulk of the Kzer-Za fleet just lurks.

I'd imagine each Thrall to have a moderate fleet size, having lost many/most ships when facing the Kzer-Za. So the Kzer-Za task force doesn't need to be that big to be in control of things.

The problem with this theory is the Kohr-Ah. If the Kzer-Za work much slower than possible, then perhaps the Kohr-Ah have managed to wipe out 80% of the galaxy while the Kzer-Za have only enslaved 20%... Also, if the Kzer-Za keep most of their armada untouched, they should really win the Doctrinal War.

Here's a workaround: the Kohr-Ah get very heavy losses when powerful alliances form to oppose them; it then takes them a while to rebuild their fleet before advancing to the next sector. And keeping in mind that the Kzer-Za might be there, they make sure to build a massive fleet before going on.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 26, 2009, 12:41:16 am
Here's a workaround: the Kohr-Ah get very heavy losses when powerful alliances form to oppose them; it then takes them a while to rebuild their fleet before advancing to the next sector. And keeping in mind that the Kzer-Za might be there, they make sure to build a massive fleet before going on.
Then it may even be possible that they would wait after destroying the Utwig, Supox, and Druuge, potentially giving the other sentients species time to band together properly against them. This assumes two things, though: first that the other species somehow find out about them (possibly via an Utwig envoy, since they have the Ultron, or perhaps by other means), and second that the Utwig make a big enough dent in their fleet for them to take the time to rebuild.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 26, 2009, 08:35:57 pm
I think the primary concern about this whole scenario is that even if the entire quadrant was alert and allied, they'd still lose. A collective defense would be required wherever the Kohr-Ah strike, so with the use of diminuation tactics a large alliance with many points to defend will lose when facing an imposing military that doesn't need to worry about defending anything.

If they just moved minor fleets against each race and their major fleet went on a death march, everyone would HAVE to defend their own bases and then the big fleet would just mop up while skirmishers kept the majority of alliance forces seperate.

There's also the minor fact that many of the races in this alliance would be nothing more than additional points that the alliance would be obligated to defend (IE ZFP). Then there are major leadership issues to consider. If the Chenjesu believe there is a tactical advantage in allowing Mycon space to be occupied for a period of time while a counter attack is made, I don't think the Mycon or any other race will be down with that. Only the Mmrn and Shofixti would be so willing, while most other races would just run away or protect their homeland with greater priority.

Mycon, Druuge, ZFP, Ilwrath, Spathi, VUX would all be useless in that they either wouldn't participate, would leave as soon as the going got tough, or wouldn't cooperate tactically unless in their self-interest.

Then there is the logistics and reinforcement issue that the Alliance just can't compete with. IDK- no matter how you consider the scenario the Alliance has no chance unless the Kzer-Za come before everyone is annihilated and the implementation of their respective doctrines gets put on hold for the doctrinal conflict.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 26, 2009, 10:14:36 pm
And yet, a key point in many of the versions of this scenario was the fact that there wouldn't be time to form an alliance - the Kohr-Ah would pretty much wipe everyone out before they knew what was going on. If they received prior warning, from the Utwig or the Zoq-Fot-Pik most likely, or possibly even the Melnorme (though obviously they'd have to pay for that), then they might have time to form an alliance. And if they have time to form an alliance, they may be able to meet the Kohr-Ah before they get anywhere near their homeworlds, either in Mycon space or in the area occupied by the Ur-Quan in the actual game.

Of course, if they can't hold back the Kohr-Ah, or if they send skirmishers in to find and eliminate their homeworlds, that might not help. Still, with a functioning alliance I think they could stand a chance.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on June 26, 2009, 10:54:57 pm
If they just moved minor fleets against each race and their major fleet went on a death march, everyone would HAVE to defend their own bases and then the big fleet would just mop up while skirmishers kept the majority of alliance forces seperate.

Oh, that gives me an idea for a variation of my theory! Rather than lurking behind, the rest of the Kzer-Za fleet might be concurrently dealing with races in other sectors of the galaxy. So perhaps it would actually be possible for the local Hierarchy to lose the Slave War - but in such case it would bring in a large Dreadnought fleet and crush the naďve celeberating Alliance.

And then the Kohr-Ah, in contrast, might move their entire fleet from sector to sector, cleansing each sector in a matter of months. Having the entire fleet concentrated, even the most powerful alliances would fail to put up any serious fight, so Marauder reconstruction wouldn't be much a problem.

Yes, I like this version better. :P

What I don't like about this entire concept is, that it renders the result of SC1, of the Slave War, completely insignificant - which really de-dramatizes the game story. But it does seem more realistic to me, and I'm a big fan of realism.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 27, 2009, 01:12:56 am
Nah, the chunk of Dreadnaughts the Kzer-Za lost in the Slave War was critical to the SC2 story line. I mean, honestly, the Kzer-Za deal is FANTASTIC as soon as EVERY race in the galaxy is a slave race. As soon as the Path of Now and Forever was implemented over all life in the galaxy, it is a relatively stable and safe hierarchical organization. So long as the entire galaxy is under the doctrine, they don't even need Battle Thralls, so either they end up under the slave shields at the end of the day or they just meander on not breaking slave codes living about their happy lives.

The main issue about being a Battle Thrall is the requirement to provide crew, resources, and starships to enforce the Path, but if there is nothing to enforce the Path upon, then I don't see the Kzer-Za sapping so many resources out of their Thralls that they'd die of starvation or be unable to do anything- it's more like a governing body taxing it's constituents for protection than forced tributes and labor. Anyone who minds Kzer-Za domination and the peace that the Path offers is suffering from an inferiority complex... On the other hand, the Kzer-Za doesn't indicate how much stronger they are than everyone else and doesn't necessarily offer terms to be a thrall until after militaristic domination, so those that are being conquered may not realize what a sweet deal it is. In this sense, for the Kzer-Za, the purpose of domination is to impose Absolute Despair- but for races that are slightly more optimistic, the slave codes really aren't a bad deal.

So, in the sense that we dealt enough damage to the Kzer-Za that they would lose the Doctrinal Conflict, I think the events of SC1 are pretty dramatic. I mean, the damage done at Delta Gorno may've been the piece of hay that weighed on the Path such that the Eternal Doctrine would've been victorious had Zel not done what he did to give the Chmmr and Yehat an opportunity to surprise attack shortly after the Sa-Matra was destroyed.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 27, 2009, 03:37:28 am
I wish people wouldn't call them Zelnick and Vindicator... ::)


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 27, 2009, 05:24:47 am
Honestly, Zelnick is a badass name. If SC2 was to be made into a movie it would best be done as a shonen. Just imagine some little japanese girl voice actor shouting 'Zel' as his magical understanding (based purely on his i'kai nature or the precursorial brain parasite in his brain eating his brain- that way you can make it a tragedy too, well, sorta, he lives 'til old age and saves the universe 2-5 times, who knows right?) of the precursor computer allows him to guide it toward the Sa-Matra, but their fleet gets jacked and the Vindicator's engines go down and the ship is about to get  blasted- Zel is on his knees pissed at himself for not being able to get further and finish (punctuated in the hero's cycle by his experiences with Talana...), suddenly a Terminator jumps out of nowhere to save the Vindicator from getting blasted by a fireball (okay, technically speaking the fireball thingy goes through ships, but really- it would look badass to see that terminator come out of nowhere and Zel is like all pumped up again), and then furies swarming all over the place with Japanese metal pumping in the background as Zel's Ikai just magically makes the engines come back online and he leads the ship to blast the Sa-Matra and whatever unlucky dreadnaughts are nearby to bits (with Avatars awaiting just outside the blast radius, 'cause they calculated it and all, swooping in for a blitzkrieg). What better name for that than Zelnick? I mean, c'mon. Vindicator is just as badass. I mean, would Fwiffo really bend over so easily if you didn't say, "Cower before MY Vindicator *&^%es!" I mean, what better thing to name a ship so insanely big?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 27, 2009, 06:02:36 pm
Maybe so, but the game itself doesn't specify the names. They can be changed at will. So it's more generic to simply say The Captain and The Flagship (unless you're talking about your own playthrough).

And yes, if you're wondering, I do change the names.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on June 27, 2009, 07:50:05 pm
And yes, if you're wondering, I do change the names.

So do I. I'm captain Jaychant of the flagship Vengeance.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Son_of_Antares on June 28, 2009, 02:36:50 am
Captain Ilmarinen of Flagship Insolence reporting in :)

But seriously people, now I'm intrigued: how do you call your captain/flagship? And is it always the same name or every new adventure makes you jump in the boots of a new hero?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 28, 2009, 04:44:46 am
I don't choose the same name every time, no.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Death 999 on June 28, 2009, 05:52:58 am
Then it may even be possible that they would wait after destroying the Utwig, Supox, and Druuge, potentially giving the other sentients species time to band together properly against them.

They don't do that when pursuing their death march... but then again
1) once they've won the doctrinal conflict, things are very different, and
2) half of the most dangerous people around are slave-shielded


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on June 28, 2009, 07:05:24 am
I'm usually Jaychant of Vengeance, but sometimes I'll change it depending on how I intend to play. For example, one time I was captaining the flagship Murderer (alt: Doom, Death) when I was being evil and attacking everyone. One time when I was being super-nice, I was captaining the flagship Hero.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 29, 2009, 01:20:18 am
Then it may even be possible that they would wait after destroying the Utwig, Supox, and Druuge, potentially giving the other sentients species time to band together properly against them.

They don't do that when pursuing their death march... but then again
1) once they've won the doctrinal conflict, things are very different, and
2) half of the most dangerous people around are slave-shielded
3) Don't they end the Death March with the Utwig? None of the other races are equipped to exist, so if they need rest after killing the Utwig it won't matter, because everyone else is dead.

Well, except Earth, but they'd only need two or three ships to finish off Earth.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Anarch Cassius on June 30, 2009, 01:20:01 am
Haven't been able to read every bit of every post but here are my thoughts on some of the things brought up. It has been argued the Alliance did not have a chance against the Kzer-za and would not have one against the Kohr-Ah. I don't think this is the case.

The Alliance of Free Stars had a real potential to defeat the Kzer-za (or the Kohr-ah). There is a legitimate reason to think things might have gone different for us. I didn't get the impression the Kzer-za had been forced to use the Sa-mattra much, if ever, before. Why us? Because we are probably the oldest races they have ever had to deal with. This doesn't have anything to do with the Arilou, who I suspect have something like time travel but not in the traditional sense, but rather with out location and the age of the universe. The Precursors seemed to lack for any real comtemporaries and years later the Sentient Mileu had only seven major races. That's how many the Alliance and the Hirearchy had fighting in the war each, but the Sentient Mileu wasn't limited to our quadrant: The Taalo homeworld is here but the Ur-quan began their marches from the other side of the galaxy. That's about 1/8 the sentient density of the current universe.* The Sentient Mileu presumably occured just as the Universe was starting to get "ripe". Having wiped out or enslaved their only true equals off the bat the early parts of the Ur-quan marches must have been almost a joke, they'd have been up against races less developed than the Ilwrath and Shofixti. However the rate of new races reaching sentience was also higher than it ever had been. The ancestors of the Alliance of Free Stars had almost all the time from the begining of the march to the 2nd doctrinal conflict to develop and prepare, we had a chance because every race before us acted as a speedbump to the Ur-Quan, buying us time. Also I think we'd be remiss to ignore the Rock-Paper-Scissors elements of balance. What is effective against one foe is not always effective against another, in real life and particularly in Star Control. The weapons of humans proved devastating against the much larger and more expensive Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts, presumably one reason the Chenjesu wanted us in particular.

Of course, when the Alliance races were starting to make tools, the Ur-Quan were already in the stars and they were improving too. The Hierarchy had an edge but not an overwhelming one. Technologically the Alliance's pooled resources were almost on par with the Hierarchy. In this quadrant by itself out production capacity was also close. The Hierarchy almost assuredly did have a back-up fleet watching over the worlds previously enslaved, but I think it was just that, a back-up fleet. If we'd been lucky enough to take out the initial assault there'd have been no immediate counter-attack from the rest of the Kzer-za. Instead the mostly logical Kzer-za would probably have pulled out their invasion force when they had taken great losses and returned to those worlds to rebuild and try again... resulting in a brief reprieve before an even larger war. Of course that nearly DID happen and the reason it did not was the Sa-Mattra. Sa-Mattra aside the 1st war was almost a draw.

And that is precisely why I think it is the Kohr-Ah and not the Alliance who would not have had a chance in *below* if the war had been along those sides. Point by point

The Kohr-Ah do not have the Sa-Mattra.
The Kohr-Ah do not have allied or slave races to provide greater diversity of forces.
The Kohr-Ah have previously lost against the Kzer-za in war.

The two major points I see for the Kohr-Ah having the edge are the lack of unity and speed of SC2's death march.

As for the lack of unity, it did take the Alliance a good deal of time to form against the Hirearchy and the stealthier actions of the Kohr-Ah would have made things worse.  This is major point for the Kohr-Ah, but the Alliance would in all probably still have formed. The inititial slow down caused by the subtlety of the Kohr-Ah would be negated when a few races dissappearance was noticed and the rest saw they were facing not merely conquest but extinction. Pretty much every race that had been in Hierarchy would have been with us, they weren't called by the Chenjesu before because they'd been enslaved already but I can't think of one of them that wouldn't join the Alliance against the Kohr-Ah. Spathi would be too afraid not too, VUX may be bigots but they want to live, even the Mycon would join us to ensure the Kohr-Ah couldn't deal Juffo-wup any setbacks.

The Death March is accurate for SC2, but not for a hypothetical SC1. The Kohr-Ah beat the Kzer-za, as has been stated, because of the damage the Alliance inflicted to the Hierarchy. Likewise the Alliance worlds are also battered and/or enslaved by the war. The Kzer-za beat us because they had the Sa-Mattra and being unwilling to use it against Kohr-Ah, they simply can't win in a weakened state. Neither can any of the races who just lost to them (except via Zelnick's ploy), but in this hypothetical battle the Kohr-Ah are facing an unweakened power.

There's also the point that the Kohr-Ah don't fight like Kzer-za, this is true, but it won't win them the war. When we fought the Hierarchy about half the races here became thralls and we lost in the end because of the Sa-mattra. Those slaves provided the Kzer-za with valuable infrastructure. When the Kohr-Ah achieve similair victories they will wipe out those worlds. They will do more damage then the Kzer-za did, but they will loose. I forsee the outcome of such a hypothetical war being assured Alliance victory but also assured is the extinction of approximately half the sentient life in this quadrant before they can be stoppped.

Then the Kzer-za show up and have people start choosing batons.

As far as the merits of Hierarchy Slavery... I do think a case can definettely be made, but perhaps not as easily as all that. I'm sure many people would make comparisons to communism both good and bad but the major aspect of Kzer-za philosophy that troubles me is democracy. Tyranny of the majority takes on a whole new meaning when a simple vote means your can either never travel through the stars or must fight for the Ur-quan. For the record does anyone know if that was that a human specific thing? I can see the Ur-quan using democracy and going by race because that is the surest way to ensure the new slave race's status matches the psychology of the race but I am not sure the method was universal.
 
Sure a unified peaceful universe looks better than a war torn one but what kind of peace are we really talking about? The Ur-quan are effecient and mostly fair but they can still be quite twisted... the whole destruction of 500+ year old structures and all. Life under the Hierarchy may not be all bad but it's far from the best possible world.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Shiver on June 30, 2009, 02:05:32 am
Also I think we'd be remiss to ignore the Rock-Paper-Scissors elements of balance. What is effective against one foe is not always effective against another, in real life and particularly in Star Control. The weapons of humans proved devastating against the much larger and more expensive Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts, presumably one reason the Chenjesu wanted us in particular.

These discussions are usually TL;DR to me, but this bit got my attention.

I disagree with this strongly. Since when was Super Melee ship effectiveness meant to perfectly reflect a species' fleet strength in Star Control's story? There are some examples of this floating around such as the Utwig giving the Kohr-Ah a bloody nose or Hayes talking about dreading possible encounters with Ilwrath and Androsynth back during the events of SC1, but not enough of this to really support the notion that all of the various melee intricacies should be treated as canon. It is a very abstract game, after all.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Anarch Cassius on June 30, 2009, 02:21:48 am
Quote
I disagree with this strongly. Since when was Super Melee ship effectiveness meant to perfectly reflect a species' fleet strength in Star Control's story?

It doesn't, never meant to imply it did. There are minor ship classes we do not see in Melee (source: Hayes), Melee does not take in account 3d dimensional space or multi-ship battles and Melee doesn't even have bearing on things like a race's infrastructure and support systems.

However you cannot argue that the Earthling Cruisers perform quite well against Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts and would still do so in 3d space or larger battles. I really did not mean to imply that Human technology in general was a trump card vs Ur-Quan because I happened to speak vaguely. Melee is however the cornerstone of the game and we have to assume it has some relation to the game world, however abstracted. The major Earthling design of the time happened to be cheaper to make and quite effective against the Dreadnaughts. That  means something. The ship effectiveness relations are far from the begin all and end all but they are real. You listed plenty of examples yourself. Another is the ZFP stating that the green ships have only tried to kill and the black ships have been quite successful at killing them. That seems to match with ZFP performing quite well for relative cost against Dreadnaughts and getting F.R.I.E.D by Maruaders.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Shiver on June 30, 2009, 02:42:19 am
Another is the ZFP stating that the green ships have only tried to kill and the black ships have been quite successful at killing them. That seems to match with ZFP performing quite well for relative cost against Dreadnaughts[...]

This never happens in competitive PVP. A seasoned player exploiting the AI's shortcomings can pull this off, but a seasoned player exploiting the AI's shortcomings can pull off pretty much any ridiculous thing imaginable. The Zoq-Fot-Pik likely mean that the Kohr-Ah are better at finding them, not fighting them. It should be obvious that either Ur-Quan subspecies would easily plow through a Zoq-Fot-Pik outpost or fleet upon finding it.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 30, 2009, 05:30:32 am
Wow, Anarch Cassius, umm... Your opening paragraphs don't really provide any meritable evidence to support your claim.

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The Kohr-Ah do not have the Sa-Mattra.
Irrelevant.

Quote
The Kohr-Ah do not have allied or slave races to provide greater diversity of forces.

There is no indication that this is actually an advantage. There is a great deal of energy and time lost in the maintenance of bureacracy and slavery. The Kohr-Ah possess a pedigree based in manual labor. Their ability to acquire resources, build ships, and maintain their fleet is probably better in many aspects. According to events in the game, had it not  been for Delta Gorno, the combat effectivity of both the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za fleets would've basically been the same.

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The Kohr-Ah have previously lost against the Kzer-za in war.
Quote
It is likely that they would have annihilated each other
were it not for a chance discovery by a Kzer-Za -- a Precursor Battleship!
Ya... no. Obviously the only reason why anybody won was because the Sa-Matra was discovered.

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Pretty much every race that had been in Hierarchy would have been with us, they weren't called by the Chenjesu before because they'd been enslaved already but I can't think of one of them that wouldn't join the Alliance against the Kohr-Ah.

Each race would be driven by a great degree of self-interest. The alliance would suffer heavily from diminution.

Quote
When your people on Earth were defeated, the Alliance just plain fell apart.

As per the conversation with Talana, the thread keeping the Alliance together was Detroit Muscle. After Earth fell, the Alliance members resorted to self-preservation with no apparent interest in defending anyone else since doing so was at an apparently great threat to themselves. Can you imagine the Mycon yielding a certain area for a tactical counter-offensive? Can you imagine having to defend such a huge region of space? The Kohr-Ah don't have to defend anything, they can strike multiple opponents and shift the focus of their attacks, just like the Kzer-Za did.

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I forsee the outcome of such a hypothetical war being assured Alliance victory but also assured is the extinction of approximately half the sentient life in this quadrant before they can be stoppped.

In the most difficult scenario for the Kohr-Ah (which they still win btw), the Kohr-Ah have to defeat the Ilwrath, Thraddash, Umgah, Vux, Spathi, Mycon, Supox, Utwig, Druuge, Yehat, ZFP, Burvixese, HS-Arilou, HS-Orz, Pkunk, AND the Kzer-Za within the timeline in our quadrant. Most of these races are at full-strength or stronger than what they would've been before Kzer-Za enslavement (as the Kzer-Za upgraded most of the battle thrall ships). I don't see alliance forces having a chance without 60% or so of the Kzer-Za combat fleet also there. This is really the most critical observation- if you play SC2 and don't do a damn thing, you've got about 16 races that the Kohr-Ah dominate without any problems before you lose.

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When we fought the Hierarchy about half the races here became thralls and we lost in the end because of the Sa-mattra. Those slaves provided the Kzer-za with valuable infrastructure.

Quote
Chmmr:
TWO: BECAUSE THE UR-QUAN LOST SO MANY SHIPS WHEN THE SHOFIXTI CAUSED THEIR OWN SUN TO FLARE
THE KOHR-AH'S FORCES ARE GROSSLY SUPERIOR TO THE UR-QUAN.

Norme:
The resulting storm of solar flares cooked the life off the Shofixti homeworld
and incinerated over a hundred Ur-Quan Dreadnoughts

Yehat:
devastating the inner system planets, but incinerating ALL the Ur-Quan vessels!
In that moment, the Hierarchy's war fleet was reduced by almost thirty percent.

The primary reason why the Kohr-Ah win the doctrinal war, according to the Chmmr, is due to the damage done to the Kzer-Za fleet at Delta Gorno by the Shofixti. So 30% of their fleet was at Delta Gorno, some of their Fleet must've been straggling throughout various areas in between Sol and the Yehat region of space, otherwise the Queen wouldn't've had anyone to surrender to. Chances are there was another chunk of Ur-Quan fleet sneaking around to the Yehat homeworld and lets just say conservatively that about 50% of their fleet was fighting Chenjesu and Mmrn forces at Rigel.

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Holding Rigel cost grievously in Chenjesu forces and the Ur-Quan, recognizing this weakness
shifted to focus the brunt of their forces on Procyon.

After grievous losses at Rigel they fall back on Procyon and then get raped by the Sa-Matra. Pretty much every historical reference suggests that the Kzer-Za could've singlehandedly raped without battle thralls. Was the Sa-Matra critical? The history in the game doesn't really imply that at all. They apparently used it to end the battle against the Chenjesu so they could prepare for the Kohr-Ah. There would've been no real need to use it other than to speed things up for the Doctrinal Conflict.

No offense, the idea of Kohr-Ah losing or winning a death march in our quadrant is something that can be debated, but most everything you've brought up is either inaccurate or baseless speculation.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on June 30, 2009, 05:51:12 am
You know, come to think of it, it's quite likely the Mycon would join an alliance if the Kohr-Ah arrived first, for similar reasons that they joined the Ur-Quan in SC1.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Resh Aleph on June 30, 2009, 08:16:37 am
However you cannot argue that the Earthling Cruisers perform quite well against Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts and would still do so in 3d space or larger battles.

Explanations:

1. Just a theory - perhaps the Mmrnmhrm gave the Cruiser's design an upgrade at the beginning of the Slave War? Better homing systems and range for missiles and PDL?

2. In the game reality, there is no limit on the number of ships participating in a battle. I suspect that Cruisers, being cheap/easy to produce, gain much of their effectiveness from numbers. This cannot be truly reflected in melee: three Cruisers would be much more potent attacking a Dreadnought together, than attacking it one by one. So the Cruiser's melee effectiveness could be seen as a compensation for this.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 30, 2009, 08:36:41 am
Quote
I disagree with this strongly. Since when was Super Melee ship effectiveness meant to perfectly reflect a species' fleet strength in Star Control's story?

It doesn't, never meant to imply it did. There are minor ship classes we do not see in Melee (source: Hayes), Melee does not take in account 3d dimensional space or multi-ship battles and Melee doesn't even have bearing on things like a race's infrastructure and support systems.

However you cannot argue that the Earthling Cruisers perform quite well against Ur-Quan Dreadnaughts and would still do so in 3d space or larger battles. I really did not mean to imply that Human technology in general was a trump card vs Ur-Quan because I happened to speak vaguely. Melee is however the cornerstone of the game and we have to assume it has some relation to the game world, however abstracted. The major Earthling design of the time happened to be cheaper to make and quite effective against the Dreadnaughts. That  means something. The ship effectiveness relations are far from the begin all and end all but they are real. You listed plenty of examples yourself. Another is the ZFP stating that the green ships have only tried to kill and the black ships have been quite successful at killing them. That seems to match with ZFP performing quite well for relative cost against Dreadnaughts and getting F.R.I.E.D by Maruaders.

Or you could actually find sources.

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During the Ur-Quan Slave War, the Broodhome was the only Alliance ship that the Ur-Quan considered to be a meaningful threat to the Hierarchy forces.

As per the original SC1 manual.

The starbucks system roughly balances the ships. IT takes about 3 cruisers to kill a dreadnought, that's a 9x3:30. Most ships follow this same pattern, though in some circumstances the ship's characteristics are too quirky for another ship to deal with.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Shiver on June 30, 2009, 06:35:08 pm
Or you could actually find sources.

Quote
During the Ur-Quan Slave War, the Broodhome was the only Alliance ship that the Ur-Quan considered to be a meaningful threat to the Hierarchy forces.

As per the original SC1 manual.

The starbucks system roughly balances the ships. IT takes about 3 cruisers to kill a dreadnought, that's a 9x3:30. Most ships follow this same pattern, though in some circumstances the ship's characteristics are too quirky for another ship to deal with.

You think a couple vague lines in SC1's manual are a good indicator of how melee plays out? Really? There's a 15 point Androsynth that wants a word with you. The ships might be closer to balanced in SC1's metagame with the smaller arena, but they certainly aren't balanced in SC2's engine.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 30, 2009, 06:51:21 pm
There is canonical evidence that outlines what the Ur-Quan considered a threat during the events of SC1 (as per the cruiser vs dreadnought example).

I was NOT implying this line had ANYTHING to do with Melee, I was merely outlining that, during the Slave War, the Ur-Quan didn't consider anything but the Broodhome a meaningful threat.

1v1 ship to ship combat has no relevance on what races beat which in fights. I was only attempting to point that out by also showing how the starbucks point system doesn't reflect this because, point-wise, cruisers beat dreadnoughts.

I mean, tbh, one Jugger should kill a million Mauraders, that's obviously not the case on a macroscopic level, according to the events in the game.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Shiver on June 30, 2009, 07:15:31 pm
Fair enough, I'll leave you be then.


I mean, tbh, one Jugger should kill a million Mauraders, that's obviously not the case on a macroscopic level, according to the events in the game.

It's not that easy, but again I'm using PVP standards. There isn't really a right way to judge melee since most players never touch PVP, a good player will demolish the AI in the most skewed circumstances and awesome cyborg vs awesome cyborg means that many ships will be played nowhere near their full potential (Orz) while others are just short of flawlessness (Slylandro).


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on June 30, 2009, 08:19:52 pm
What do PVP standards (or PVC or CVC for that matter) have to do with the continuity of the story? Wait, why did you bring it up? I can't seem to figure that out....

The Torch and the Jugger are two of the best ships for melee, and yet they get raped in the story. I could kill hundreds of Avengers with a single Torch and hundreds of Mauraders with a single Jugger....


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Shiver on June 30, 2009, 11:02:24 pm
What do PVP standards (or PVC or CVC for that matter) have to do with the continuity of the story? Wait, why did you bring it up? I can't seem to figure that out....

The Torch and the Jugger are two of the best ships for melee, and yet they get raped in the story. I could kill hundreds of Avengers with a single Torch and hundreds of Mauraders with a single Jugger....

The point I've been arguing is that melee tendencies don't pertain to plot discussions, and it looks like you agree. I brought up PvP as a response to "one Jugger should kill a million Marauders", a statement that would only have some grounding in reality if you were playing PvC. Your statement illustrates nicely why PvC is a big joke even when the discussion is of melee itself, not Star Control's plot.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on July 04, 2009, 04:25:59 pm
You know, come to think of it, it's quite likely the Mycon would join an alliance if the Kohr-Ah arrived first, for similar reasons that they joined the Ur-Quan in SC1.

There is strong evidence that the Mycon voluntarily submit to their enemy if they know to be outmatched, and then wait for an opportunity to crush them. For example, they joined the Hierarchy voluntarily. Also, one of the things the Mycon say hints towards this.

Therefore, I think they would more likely join the Kohr-Ah and wait for them to show their weakness, and then strike. After all, the Kohr-Ah do mention that they don't destroy races that promise to annihilate all intelligent life, including themselves. The Mycon could agree to this, and then attack the Kohr-Ah when they are weakest (meaning they would actually betray their promise to destroy themselves). Conveniently, the doctrinal war would provide such an opportunity.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on July 05, 2009, 01:21:23 am
Good call, but that only hurts the Alliance's chances even more. The Mycon have long maturation cycles that occur deep in the core of planets, they could hide in planetary cores while the Kohr-Ah pass over, sacrificing most of their fleet to help the Kohr-Ah to hide the fact that they are difficult to detect when they're hiding in boiling lead... LOL- the only race likely to survive the Death March are the absolute worst of the bunch.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: jaychant on July 05, 2009, 01:37:17 am
Good call, but that only hurts the Alliance's chances even more. The Mycon have long maturation cycles that occur deep in the core of planets, they could hide in planetary cores while the Kohr-Ah pass over, sacrificing most of their fleet to help the Kohr-Ah to hide the fact that they are difficult to detect when they're hiding in boiling lead... LOL- the only race likely to survive the Death March are the absolute worst of the bunch.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Deep Children, which are not Mycon; rather, they are tools used to create an ideal environment for the Mycon. So no, I don't think the Mycon could do that.

EDIT: I don't think they would do that anyways, because they would want to destroy the Kohr-Ah, not just hide and let them pass over.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on July 06, 2009, 05:36:20 pm
Quote
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Deep Children, which are not Mycon; rather, they are tools used to create an ideal environment for the Mycon. So no, I don't think the Mycon could do that.

EDIT: I don't think they would do that anyways, because they would want to destroy the Kohr-Ah, not just hide and let them pass over.

I'm pretty sure that the Deep Children, Mycon and their Spaceships are all subspecies of the same thing.

IDK- I think the Mycon will do anything for self preservation and  continuation, it is in their psychological profile.

Quote
<Fwiffo> The Mycon were biological tools of the Precursors. They had been programmed for terraforming, but when the Precursors vanished, the Mycons were left unattended. Over the following millenia, their programs drifted, forming the worship of Juffo-Wup.

The Deep Child is a specialized, genetically engineered Mycon spore pod.

I am Dugee
I am the purity monitor
I choose what buds are permitted to mature
and which must be eradicated

Your simple sexual process produces random mosaics of genetic instructions
yet with the simplicity of breath, I modify my own patterns
You humans improve a tool and double your capabilities
We Mycon improve ourselves and increase a thousand-fold.
 

This slew of quotes says a few things. Primarily that there is no racial distinction between the Children and the Mycon.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on July 06, 2009, 08:52:03 pm
Therefore, I think they would more likely join the Kohr-Ah and wait for them to show their weakness, and then strike. After all, the Kohr-Ah do mention that they don't destroy races that promise to annihilate all intelligent life, including themselves. The Mycon could agree to this, and then attack the Kohr-Ah when they are weakest (meaning they would actually betray their promise to destroy themselves). Conveniently, the doctrinal war would provide such an opportunity.
Where do the Kohr-Ah say this? I don't think the Mycon would try to join the Kohr-Ah, simply because it would probably destroy them.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on July 07, 2009, 01:13:01 am
Quote
If you eliminate all non-Ur-Quan sentient races, including yourselves
then we will stop.
We have made this offer before. No one accepts.
So we cleanse.

The Mycon will willingly submit themselves to anybody if they think they can find an advantage later (as per their introduction into the hierarchy), and the Kohr-Ah are receptive to the idea under the above conditions.

Mycon may not feign death, but their ungrown spores in shattered worlds as well as the deep children may go unnoticed.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: CelticMinstrel on July 07, 2009, 05:14:18 am
Ah, okay. So the may join then.

If the Deep Children spawn the more conventional Mycon, they may even follow that agreement to the letter, except for a few Deep Children inserted into a few planets to keep their race alive.


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on July 07, 2009, 04:07:14 pm
This is silly. The Kohr-Ah make that offer expecting rejection, so that they may cleanse. But they wouldn't seriously ally with anyone. If the Mycon "accepted" the Kohr-Ah's "alliance proposal," their first and only assigned task would be to cleanse themselves. When they inevitably refused, the Kohr-Ah would simply do what they were unwilling to.

Really, do you think the most coldly logical and genocidal race in the galaxy would be that gullible?


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: spinsane on July 07, 2009, 06:52:36 pm
This is silly. The Kohr-Ah make that offer expecting rejection, so that they may cleanse. But they wouldn't seriously ally with anyone. If the Mycon "accepted" the Kohr-Ah's "alliance proposal," their first and only assigned task would be to cleanse themselves. When they inevitably refused, the Kohr-Ah would simply do what they were unwilling to.

Really, do you think the most coldly logical and genocidal race in the galaxy would be that gullible?

Coldly logical? I don't know about that. The Ur-Quans are fairly passionate about what they do and they KNOW that the logic behind their doctrines aren't that great (the Kohr-Ah volunteer that the eternal doctrine is a paradox).

Quote
Human. We Ur-Quan never lie. NEVER!
It is a weakness to lie and, as you have noticed, the Ur-Quan are not weak!


Title: Re: Mysteries of the Star Control Universe... theories much appreciated!
Post by: Draxas on July 08, 2009, 04:01:52 pm
Nonetheless, asking the Mycon to cleanse themselves as their first and only task really doesn't construe lying.

Maybe logical was the wrong choice of word, though within the Kohr-Ah's twisted worldview, everything they do is perfectly logical.