The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Welcome to Starcontrol: Behind Enemy Lines

During the Great War between the Hierarchy and the Alliance, countless battles were fought. The general public is only aware of the heroic fleet battles in which we time and time again routed the heinous aggressors. But a war is not won on brawn alone. We needed every edge we could get, which is where Corridor 9 came in. Working closely with other alliance intelligence agencies, Corridor 9 performed many daring acts of espionage and counter-espionage during the conflict. Hierarchy plans were intercepted, supply lines disrupted and dignitaries assassinated. In order to perform these missions heroes were needed. These brave men, women and creatures penetrated deep behind enemy lines, fighting a shadow war against unspeakable opponents. This is their story.

We’re going to be playing a turn based game here. I’ll fill the role as dungeon master and move the enemies around, and work all the mechanics whilst you have all the fun. The game has not been tried before, so I’ll do my best to iron out any balance or other kinks as we go along. All questions and comments are welcome in this thread, if you think something could be done better, don’t hesitate to suggest. If something is unclear, ask.

Playing the game

The game is turn based. Each player will post their movements and actions for a given turn, and I will execute them on a first post first served basis. If something unexpected happens, such as an enemy encounter or discovery of a new area, the turn will be paused and players will be allowed to use whatever action points they have left to adapt to the situation. Pausing the turn means that you will once again be in a first post first served situation. the player whose turn has been interrupted is not entitled to continue first. All enemy turns will be executed after the players have moved, and end turn results will be posted after this.

The Map

A simulation map will be provided upon which the general environment and units will be shown. I will update this as you progress. It's a no frills map with some beautiful graphics by Dabir and some ugly stuff by me.

Action points

Action points are what make the game go round. Each player starts a new round with two action points. They can be used for several different things. These are as follow.

Moving

Each player can move a set amount of squares each turn. Moving the full amount will consume both your action points. Moving half of the amount will consume one action point. If you use your action point for other things, you may no longer move.

Example: If your movement range is 4, moving 1 square will leave you with two action points, moving 2 or three squares will leave you with one and moving 4 squares will leave you with none. However, if you start your turn by opening a door, this uses one action point and you can now only move 2 squares.

Using items

Using an item such as a medikit, grenade or other will consume one action point. The same goes for opening doors, switching from one weapon to another and picking something up/looting a corpse.

Example: If your movement range is six and you are standing in front of a door, opening it will consume one action point. This way you have halved your movement range to three. You may now move another three steps or use an item/perform an attack with your remaining point.

Giving

You can give items to your teammates or NPCs. giving requires an AP, but the receiving something does not consume action points.


Combat

Each attack you perform (ranged or close combat) will consume one action point. Defensive action is automatic and does not consume points. One attack is divided into several different strikes, and every strike can potentially cause 1 HP of damage. The amount of strikes your attack produces depends on your weapon and its modifiers. Defensive action is divided into parries. Each parry has the potential to negate one strike. The amount of parries you have depend on your level, armour and other modifiers.

The successfulness of a strike or parry will be determined by rolling a six sided dice, as is described below. You may only attack in straight lines, not diagonally.

Strike:    Each strike is determined by a thrown die. The die has two hits (1-2), two misses (3-4), one friendly fire (5) and one bullseye (6). Friendly fire counts as a miss if no friendly unit is in the line of fire. Bullseye is a non-defensible hit. Only players have bullseyes, as the enemy is not equally well trained. For enemy units, bullseye is counted as a regular hit.

Parry:    Each parry  is determined by a thrown die. The die has two successes (1-2), three fail (3-5) and one stun (6). Stun does not cost HP but means that the player loses one action point during the next turn. Stuns are not cumulative; a second stun will count as a hit.

Each successful hit (strike + failed parry) causes a loss of 1 HP

Example: Your movement range is 4, and you begin your turn in front of a door. Using one action point you open the door. This leaves you with one action point and thus your movement range has been halved. Opening the door reveals an enemy inside. If you choose, you can move one step and still have one action point remaining. Or you can use the action point directly. This action point can be used for an attack. Since your weapon entitles you to three strikes,You roll three strike dice and score two hits and a miss. Your opponent is entitled to only one parry die, and scores success. This means that he blocks one of your attacks, but the other one penetrates and gives him -1 HP you have now used up your action points for this turn.

Ranged combat specialities

In ranged combat every weapon has its own range. Some weapons reach as far as you can see, whilst others only affect the immediate surroundings. Ranged weapons consume ammunition, but how depends on weapon type. A ranged automatic weapon will typically consume one bullet per strike dice, while some close combat area weapons will consume one bullet per attack (all strikes). This is specified for every weapon. If an enemy is in contact with you, your ranged strike dice will be affected in a weapon specific way.

You can carry two ranged weapons but only use one at a time. Switching between ranged weapons consumes one action point.

Melee combat specialities

Switching from ranged to melee weapon and back does not consume action points. Moving out of melee range will give your enemy one free strike against which you can’t parry against.

Mobbing

Both you and the enemy can mob opponents. this is done by having several players attacking a single target during one turn. As each player only has a set number of parry dice, increasing the amount of strike dice means you'll have more chances to hit him. In melee combat this can only be done by surrounding the target, but for ranged combat you can opt to fire at a target that is behind one of your team mates. You then run the risk of causing "friendly fire", which will inflict -1HP on your ally.

Using Powers

Powers are psychic attacks which some units are capable of. Using a power normally consumes it for an entire scenario, so use it wisely. Using a power will consume one action point. Attack powers normally require line of sight, but other powers may not. This is outlined separately for each power.

Experience

Experience points are gained by killing enemies and solving tasks. Each kill is worth 1 XP, and tasks are worth a varying amount of XP. Five XP points brings you to a new level, which gives you a special ability of some sort. It may also give you other advantages.

Miscellaneous

Vision

Your characters have a limited range of vision, which is demonstrated by the image below.  Inside this field of vision you can see all characters and objects. Outside it, areas are either unexplored or covered by fog of war.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2s13cx4.png)

Fog of War

When a room or area that has been previously explored is no longer in your field of vision, the room turns grey. this indicates that you cannot see any movement inside this area until you've once again got it in your field of vision. If you discover enemy units or NPC:s in a area, and then withdraw, the map will show the place they had when fog of war fell. If they move under the fog of war, you will not discover this before you return to the area to inspect it again.

Mission one

For our first game there are four units available, Human, Syreen, Arilou and Shofixti, but Dabir got dibs on Arilou for providing me with graphics. Ideally I’d like four players, but I’ll settle for a minimum of two persons, each controlling two units. You are free to make up your own name and back story if you like, otherwise I’ll use your forum names or some derivation thereof. Once everyone has picked their figure, I’ll post your stats and equipment in this thread and open a new thread for actually playing the game.

Disqualifications

Playing a turn based game on a forum is going to be a real challenge. I will endeavour to update the turns at least twice during the week and once during the weekend, and let you know if there are any slowdowns. I will expect the players to post their new turns within 2-3 days from my update. If a player does not update his status during an entire week (7 days), another player will be given control over his character. If a player wants to, he can transfer control to another player temporarily. If the turn based system can be tweaked don’t hesitate to suggest things, I will also do my best to adapt it to real circumstances.

So yeah, Dabir will be starting as an Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546). So, human, Syreen and shofixti are still free. Anyone else who feels up for it post here and let me know what you want to play as. First come first served. Or post comments if you think something seems off or just have something else to tell us that is related.

I'll be back home on Monday evening, so the game will probably start on Tuesday. I'll make a new thread for the actual mission which will also contain the starter map and your personalised units.

I'll play. I'll take the Syreen.

Excellent.,, meep-eep is our Syreen Squaddie (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56559#msg56559). That leaves Human and Shofixti.

Meh... does it have to be a stock Syreen character? I want to play Wubula:

What most people envision when they think of a Syreen, is a young, sexy, skinny blue girl like Talana. Wubula was like that, 20 years and 9 children ago. Now, she's 85 kg heavier and is beginning to turn a bit greenish. When Syra was destroyed, most Syreen women entered the military. Wubula, on the other hand, managed to ensnare one of the few remaining Syreen men, a frail little fellow with several physical handicaps, which was pretty good under the circumstances. Now, with Wubula having done her part for the repopulation of her species, she went to serve in another way, and started military training. There, she surprised everyone, leaving the younger trainees far behind her. It turned out that there's a lot of muscle underneath all that fat, and a lot of air inside that big chest.

P.S. I think you mean "affect", not "effect" ("whilst others only effect the immediate surroundings").

I'll take the Shofixti. Should I provide character info in this thread or PM u or in some other way? And where are the Human and Shofixti stats/items (there was no entry for them in the SC: BEL units/items thread)? ???

...

Sukuzu

is one of the greatest living warriors and shword masters of the Shofixti race and was quite eager to join the front ranks of the Alliance when the Great War began. His combat prowess was unimaginable, his bravery unsurpassed, his shwordmanship unmatched; all Shofixti took great pride in Sukuzu...all that before he jumped into Scout cockpit for the first time in his life. It wasn't just the travel from his Homeworld to the Yehat Orbital Training station that made him uneasy, but that strange feeling of weightlessness...it made him feel almost as if he was...what was that alien feeling? Oh, yes - afraid. And when he was encased alone in that small small seat and witnessed as the infinity of that bleak and black Void known as TrueSpace unfolds beneath his paws he felt not just his fur, but whole body shivering like a leaf on the winter wind. He didn't hear his instructor Prkk Kreet when he told him to charge his engines and start his scanners. He didn't see the red light blinking on his command panel telling him that his ship was still attached to the station. He just couldn't stop thinking how the Void was big and the stars so small...so little...so few in numbers...so *orange flash in cockpit* *ship out of control* *vomits* *panic attack* *shipyard proximity alert* *more vomiting* *blessed unconsciousness*...A split second and 2-3 quick debriefings later (not to mention few 10k RUs worth a damage:)  SC Command decided that it was best for all  to recommission Sukuzu from Star Control Space Service to Corridor 9 to serve as a spy until he's done with his spacefaring disease problem.

Char Info: Rather than to abandon service, Sukuzu chose to serve as a spook for the Alliance and try to regain some of his former glory and clear his name of shame it now holds. However his problems are far from being solved, because every once in a while he still loses himself when faced with the infinity of cosmos...for example when his look slips to the window in a starship cantina or when looking at the charts of a really big starmap:) this course of events made Sukuzu overly paranoid and superstitious (due to lack of confidence) but recently, thanks to his successful fear therapy treatment with Yehat warpriests/ Shofixti maidens/ Hunam shrinks, he learned that there are alternative solutions for his problem. Instead of standing frozen and lost in thought or even getting a panic attack, he decided to go frenzy whenever he starts to lose control - it even looks more honorable/brave and warriorish that way:) besides that he's full of glory, honor, moral, witty language/insults and all things furry and Shofixtian as any other Great Shofixti Warrior! Kyaiee! ;D

Appearance: grown Shofixti adult, 3 Shofixti/38 Earthling yrs old (this is a guess, taking their lightspeed fast metabolism into account). The fur is exactly the same as on any Shofixtian except that the basic color is desert-gold-yellow (not the standard brown) and it grows into a mane*. Also: big sensitive ears,  big cunning dark brown eyes, long furry fox-like tail with a black point. Weighs around 50 lbs and stands about 111 cm tall (when walking upright) and is around 170 cm long when walking on all fours (is there any info abouth their w/h?couldn't find any in the wikia  :P ). Wears standard Shofixti spy outfit (whatever that may be).

*I know that this doesn't fit with the holy UQM canon, but I always wondered do they all have to be the same?I mean let's face it - they are sexual space mammals with rapid metabolism and an instinctive urge to procreate - there must be some genetic variability on this level.

Gear: *input required*, a Shofixti masterwork mono-shword (approximately same size as a human combat knife, Rambo meets kukri style), flint, small backpack for carrying stuff. Besides that he has (and wears) seemingly endless amounts of amulets, talismans, rings, earrings etc and other protective jewelry that helps him overcome his fear from vacuum of space.

Not at all, Wubula it is. Once the game thread starts, I'll post your actual characters in that thread. The stats and inventory will probably remain the same, but the background is up to you. You can roleplay as much or as little as you wish, I'll try to adapt to that.


Whoops, right you are.


Noted, I'll update with the stock stuff/inventory for you tomorrow. Provide character info wherever you like, here or in PM.

That leaves plain old Human, any takers?

I shall endeavour to participate in this undertaking.
(Translation: I'll play.)

Grünfeld Bach (don't ask)

Grünfeld is a devout (which here is just an euphemism for fanatical) German Neo-Protestant radical. He is the member of a sect who split from Jason MacBride's Homo Deus cult; Bach's sect believes in the superiority of humanity over all other races, equating them all with the spawn of Satan (their word for them is "Unclean"). He was caught by the United Nations Security Force while attempting to place a bomb within the Syreen embassy in Los Angeles; recognizing his abilities, however, and the dire need of the Alliance for experienced operatives, Corridor Nine requested that he be released under the condition that he serves under them in the Great War. In a moment of weakness (which he later rationalized, thinking that his death would lead to no good, while his service would lead to the death of many of the Unclean), Bach accepted the offer, and he is now forced to work alongside a full-alien crew, praying each night that God releases him from this terrible burden.

Fun Fact: Bach likes to dual-wield two pistols, but is terribly disappointed that, for some reason, whenever he tries to grab a pistol with his left hand, the one in his right hand mysteriously slips back to his inventory, and he is paralyzed for three seconds.

Appearance: Bach is in his mid-thirties, and has a buzz cut which reveals a cross tattooed on his head. His facial features and black eyes reveal an authoritarian, dominant personality. His chest is heavily scarred, the result of a grievous burn he suffered early in his service to his sect. He has also painted a cross on his weapon (as part of a ritual in which he consecrated it to God).

This looks a bit dice-heavy. A Choose Your Own Adventure style thread might have been easier to pull off. I'll be watching this to see how it turns out.

Alright, that means Son_of_Antares is palying as a Shofixti Grunt (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56573#msg56573), and Yetiers is playing as a Human Trooper (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56575#msg56575). I'll get the game thread set up this evening or tomorrow, once I'm back home.

A word of advice, you'll need to work together in the game to get very far. Rememebr that you're a team. any rule questions that we need to sort out can be handled in this thread and I'll update the first post if necessary.

Here's something I forgot to post already. You can move through other players, but you can't end your turn on the same spot as someone else. I've rolled some virtual dice to give you priority over who gets a spot if several people picks one at once. Shofixti - Syreen - Human - Arilou. So if Shofixti and Arilou both post turns that end up in the same place then Arilou will have to rethink his strategy.

In your turns, please make the movements actions somewhat easy to read (2 right/east 1 North/up and so no).


Yeah, and the turns are going to be challenging as well. If it really doesn't work I'll move us along to semi-RPG where you just decide directions and actions and we skip the whole counting thing and action points.

So when do those of us that missed the first wave of recruitment get to take a crack at this? I think it sounds pretty cool, and would love to play.

Quick question, yet important one: can we expect a good role playing experience where character development and story immersion is required and desired, backed up with a nice storyline and background plot, or we're here for a munchkinery of some sort? It's always good to know these things in advance and I wholeheartedly hope it's the former  :)

After mission 1 is completed I'll be taking new recruits for mission 2.


I've no idea what munchkinery means, but this is what's going to happen. You are going to play a modified version of a boardgame from when I was a kid. Your actions are limited to what has been posted above, moving, fighting, and using things. I've created a level with one main objectives and a few secondary ones, which you will attempt to complete. This is not a traditional RPG in the sense that I will not be posting "You enter a room, description of room, what do you want to do". Instead, you will be moving around of your own volition and dealing with challenges (mostly enemies).

In short, you could call this RPG-lite. I will provide detailed enough descriptions of your surroundings to (hopefully) achieve a fair immersion, and it is up to you how much role playing you want to do. If you want to do pow-wows with your team-mates in character and have in-character arguments that is fine. If you just want to post "3 East, Open Door" that's fine too. I'll adapt my descriptions to your feedback (more/less).

However, since this is a first run of the game, I'm open to adaptation. If the first few game turns prove too cumbersome and the turn system proves way too slow making weeks pass between any events,  we'll change it. It'll mean less structure and more making it up as you go along which is more work for me. But one way or another, we'll play this mission and emerge wiser and hopefully happier from the experience.

Game starts tomorrow troops.

Cool, looking forward to it.


Pretty much, RPGer slang for min/maxing, rules lawyering, using OOC knowledge IC, and other behavior designed to "win" a game that really doesn't have any kind of defined win conditions. Tolerated to a greater or lesser (or nonexistent) degree depending on who is running the game and how they feel about this sort of behavior.

Not really sure how that applies here; the rules seem pretty well defined and rigid, unlike many circumstances in more "traditional" RPGs.


From what I've seen, the game mechanics remind me a lot of Space Hulk, or perhaps a bit of Hero Quest. Did I call that one right?

I've never really played anything except Computer RPG's so that's new to me. None of that here though, we go by the rules, unless I change them permanently because they aren't working.


I've never played the first, but the second is spot on. It's great fun in person (or was back then), so let's see how well it works here.

Ok, game on. Left out part of the Shofixti description, mainly gear, since you can only carry what I allotted. The lander was small and cramped, which means you had to leave your sword behind. Part of the Shofixti description also needs editing, I'll fix that once you update your char description. The size seems fine to me, at least for this game.

Dabir hasn't done a character thing, so he gets the stock text. You can converse freely with each other in or out of character in the game thread, or via PM's it's up to you.

EDIT: As you can see, the map isn't very pretty (except for Dabirs lovely sprites of course, but you'll have to make do. I can't seem to upload a bigger version which would show off the sprites better, using tinypic. Anyone want to suggest a better host?

I'm going to assume that this example is slightly wrong, as three is more than half of 4.
And by the way, if there is more than one friendly unit in the line of fire, and I score a friendly fire, which one of them gets hit? One of them at random, or all of them?

Not unless I'm miscalculating something. If you move less than half of your movement range you have not consumed any action points. Thus you have 2 action points. If you move half or more than half (but not all) of your movement range, you've consumed 1 action point, leaving you with one. If you move your full range you have no action points.

Example to make it clearer: Shofixti has a range of 6. So he can move up to two step without consuming an action point, and up to five consuming only one point. Moving six consumes both points.


If you fire through several of your own units, the damage will be allocated at random, at least with your current weapon.

I get the impression that Arilou don't really have much of a backstory that we could understand. Just call mine Wawaweewa.

Duly noted and name changed. Ideally you guys should probably discuss your moves before going into action, but if that proves too cumbersome you're free to just move out as well. If you can't come up with turns in a day or two I'll change the rules to first come first served, i.e I'll execute one turn at a time in the order that you post them.

Few ideas and a question:

Turn mechanics: wouldn't be better (easier?) if you would add initiative or sequence or speed or reflex or ... (call it whatever you like) to the game system that would determine how fast can a character of that race react and then after we all post our actions you resolve the turn according to that stat? For the sake of randomness you can use that number ("speed stat") + roll d6. Something like if Areilou has speed 2, Shofixti speed 4, Earthling and Syreen both have speed of 3 and Ilwrath has 5, after we're all done posting you roll the dice(s) and do the math (example) - 5 for Areilou (total 7), 1 for Shofixti (total 5), 3 for Earthling (total 7), 6 for Syreen (total 9) and Ilwrath 4 (total 9). So the order in which our actions would resolve would be:

Ilwrath, Syreen 9
Areilou 7
Earthling 6
Shofixti 5

You would decide who goes first in a tie and could spice that all up in flavor text  - "...and even the holy warrior of Kazon was surprised when "Big Mama" Wubula leaped across the room faster than a Shofixti on fire to reach the positronic detonator laying on the desk. "Who could have thought that she still possessed such remarkable reflexes?" were the last thoughts of the Ilwrath as the blue-greenish tide smirked over at him and turned of the lights in his mind with a quick barrage of particle destruction..." ; so if something in gameworld would change making someones action posted prior to the event impossible,  he would have to rethink his action, change them to a certain extent (edit / -S-) and  adapt to the current events.

I think it would quicken up the fuss and  let the combat unfold in a more interesting/unpredictable manner (personal opinion).

Crew Roster: if you want to go with this really kewl project on after the first mission, you could consider making a "Roster Thread". Here you can place the survivors of the previous missions (their characters), their exp, number of kills etc (we're keeping our exp through the missions, right?) alongside with the "green" spies (characters of the people who haven't played already); something like a spook hall of fame/x-com recruitment center :D From this pool you can choose people when forming teams for the upcoming missions, adjusting your choice as plot/story demands. Auction system seems somewhat unfair (maybe someone wants to play but isn't online at the time the mission starts and gets ninjad! by other player wannabes)  :P

Question: I'm not getting something - we all have 2 APs to use per turn right? And each attack costs 1 AP, right? So how can I use my paws of fury (4 attacks) at all, let alone in one turn?  ??? at first I thought it was a special ability, but it isn't listed as such  :P so...hm?

---

These are just some ideas I got after the first "session", so please don't think I'm trying to change your game (it's really awesome  ;D ) /story/style, I really really enjoy all of this and want to see more of it comin' and just wanted to contribute in any way possible!

I don't think the initiative concept would work, as people's moves can interfere with eachother. Turns would take too long. This first turn went rather quickly, just because everyone happened to be online roughly at the same time, but if someone is only able to respond at a specific time different from when others (specifically the DM) are online, it could turn out the be a very long campaign. I think processing the moves in the order in which they are posted would be best.

As for the question about attacking, the "attacks" number listed with your weapon determines the number of attack dice rolls, which has nothing to do with "action points" (AP). You only normally have 2 AP per turn, which you can use to attack twice (in total), each with multiple dice rolls.
I had to read it a second time myself too. It's not the best chosen terminology.

Regarding the turn mechanics I agree with meep. Even the simultaneous turn which is easier than that (because it let's you factor in each other and you have a certain priority just turned into a confusing mess. First post gets to move first, and I'll only interrupt a move if something unexpected happens (an enemy appears). If that happens, it's first post moves first again.

meep explained the mechanics correctly, I suppose I used somewhat confusing words. It's all very clear in my head because I designed it, but of course it won't be as obvious to anyone else. I'll rewrite the guides a bit to make it clearer, and post the changed sections here to show you what has been changed.

Regarding the roster, once we're done with the thread your characters will be immortalized in the first post. If I run loads of missions I might think about a roster thread, but for just a couple I don't see a need. People will get to keep their characters, and no one else will use them without permission.


Any and all suggestions are welcome. This is my first time running this as well, and as we saw the engine didn't survive first contact. Hopefully, by the time we get to the hard parts everything will have smoothed itself out a  bit more.

Revamped the combat section, any clearer?


Combat

Each attack you perform (ranged or close combat) will consume one action point. Defensive action is automatic and does not consume points. One attack is divided into several different strikes, and every strike can potentially cause 1 HP of damage. The amount of strikes your attack produces depends on your weapon and its modifiers. Defensive action is divided into parries. Each parry has the potential to negate one strike. The amount of parries you have depend on your level, armour and other modifiers.

The successfulness of a strike or parry will be determined by rolling a six sided dice, as is described below. You may only attack in straight lines, not diagonally.

Strike:    Each strike is determined by a thrown die. The die has two hits (1-2), two misses (3-4), one friendly fire (5) and one bullseye (6). Friendly fire counts as a miss if no friendly unit is in the line of fire. Bullseye is a non-defensible hit. Only players have bullseyes, as the enemy is not equally well trained.

Parry:    Each parry  is determined by a thrown die. The die has two successes (1-2), three fail (3-5) and one stun (6). Stun does not cost HP but means that the player loses one action point during the next turn. Stuns are not cumulative; a second stun will count as a hit.

Each successful hit (strike + failed parry) costs 1 HP

Example: Your movement range is 4, and you begin your turn in front of a door. Using one action point you open the door. This leaves you with one action point and thus your movement range has been halved. Opening the door reveals an enemy inside. If you choose, you can move one step and still have one action point remaining. Or you can use the action point directly. This action point can be used for an attack. Since your weapon entitles you to three strikes,You roll three strike dice and score two hits and a miss. Your opponent is entitled to only one parry die, and scores success. This means that he blocks one of your attacks, but the other one penetrates and gives him -1 HP you have now used up your action points for this turn.

Ranged combat specialities

In ranged combat every weapon has its own range. Some weapons reach as far as you can see, whilst others only effect the immediate surroundings. Ranged weapons consume ammunition, but how depends on weapon type. A ranged automatic weapon will typically consume one bullet per strike dice, while some close combat area weapons will consume one bullet per attack (all strikes). This is specified for every weapon. If an enemy is in contact with you, your ranged strike dice will be affected in a weapon specific way.

You can carry two ranged weapons but only use one at a time. Switching between ranged weapons consumes one action point.

Melee combat specialities

Switching from ranged to melee weapon and back does not consume action points. Moving out of melee range will give your enemy one free strike against which you can’t parry against.

Mobbing

Both you and the enemy can mob opponents. this is done by having several players attacking a single target during one turn. As each player only has a set number of parry dice, increasing the amount of strike dice means you'll have more chances to hit him. In melee combat this can only be done by surrounding the target, but for ranged combat you can opt to fire at a target that is behind one of your team mates. You then run the risk of causing "friendly fire", which will inflict -1HP on your ally.


EDIT: I also corrected the turn system away from the non-working one to the one we are using right now.



Playing the game

The game is turn based. Each player will post their movements and actions for a given turn, and I will execute them on a first post first served basis. If something unexpected happens, such as an enemy encounter or discovery of a new area, the turn will be paused and players will be allowed to use whatever action points they have left to adapt to the situation. Pausing the turn means that you will once again be in a first post first served situation. the player whose turn has been interrupted is not entitled to continue first. All enemy turns will be executed after the players have moved, and end turn results will be posted after this.

Now it's much better (though I'm not sure why you renamed "dodges" to "parries"), but here's a small rule question: say there's an enemy unit (named A) two squares west and another one (B) three squares west of you; can you choose which of them to fire or do you have to fire at A, and if you can choose then (if you choose B) does friendly fire count as hitting A?

I thought parry and strike sounded better together than parry and dodge. It's my artistic vision :)

As to your question, you can't fire through enemy aliens, so you'll be hitting the first one. At least with the weapon you have now.

EDIT: Also note the modification to AP's I made. As long as no enemies are present, only opening doors and moving consumes AP's. Not looting, using Medikits or any such thing.

Tnx Lukipela and meep-eep, those few posts cleared things up for me.


that's a long word  :)

Btw -  in which moment of the SC timeline the mission we are currently playin' is placed? SC 1, UQM or something else (year/date?)? Just being curious about the game lore.

It's SC1, see the first post.

More specifically, we're in the timeframe 2126 - 2134, after all the races have joined but before it is apparent that the Alliance is losing. The exact date is unspecified right now because this is a secret mission ;) But it might be around February 2130.

Yup, the Alliance is mentioned, not the New Alliance, my bad.

I'm not sure I understand the mobbing rules, precisely. It seems, from the wording, like any given character has a fixed number of defense dice that they are allowed to roll in a single turn. Are these allocated one a one to one basis per strike, or do the simply use up all their defense dice as soon as the first strike comes their way, or what?

Going by the old Hero Quest rules, each character should have a fixed number of defense dice they roll to stop each attack, which is distinctly different than the way it seems to be worded now, but makes more sense to me (at least as far as ranged attacks are concerned, but you could definitely make the argument for melee as well). The way the rules are currently set up, at least according to my interpretation, they seem to be geared toward an extremely lethal game, even for players; all it takes, for example, is a pair of Ilwrath to focus their fire on one player in order to exceed their defensive ability. Considering how few HP most of the players have, this is not exactly ideal... Or at least I would think not.

This could also lend itself to a bit of abuse on they players' part, simply by holding their more powerful weapons back, and allowing smaller guns to run out an enemy's defensinve abilities before firing the heavy stuff at them later in the same turn. I suppose enemies using multiple weapon types could use the same tactic, and it makes some slight amount of sense from a realism perspective as well as adding strategic possibilities, but still doesn't seem conducive to a very survivable game for anyone.

So yeah, that wall of text means: Please clarify.

Hey and thanks for the input. Like I said, I haven't really done this before so some of my ideas may well be flawed. Your thoughts are appreciated.

You've understood the rules correctly. Each character has a set number of parries per turn. If these are exceeded he won't be able to defend himself. This was put in to make the game more realistic. The idea is that your troop is moving as one, so any enemies won't have to time to regain their composure between attacks.

The question about wasting parries is a good one, which I hadn't fully considered. If an enemy has two parries and you have two attacks, you miss both and he parries both, then those parries are potentially wasted. Perhaps it would be prudent to allocate them one on one. Thus, any unused parries can carry over to the next enemy, should that be necessary.

As for the lethality of the mobbing rule, you are correct. Strike dice are already more effective than parry dice, making attacking preferable to defending. The idea behind it is to force the players to work as more of a team. They need to do enough damage before the enemy has time to react, or face grim consequences. Even the stronger players can be wounded very quickly. Low HP in itself can be healed, but if they divide or stall too much then the enemy will stand a good chance of killing them. Mostly in this first scenario the enemy will not be expecting them, which makes it easier on them. There may or may not be objects available that raise your amount of parry dice.

In regards to the enemy mobbing players, keep in mind that I'm in control of them. Regular Ilwrath will usually not mob, and some of the higher ups have weapons/abilities that prevent mobbing.

I don't see a problem with abuse on the players part. If they work together as a team, wearing down an enemy before it has a chance to strike back then this is good. We've already seen that lone enemies are hardly a challenge to the players. If groups of enemies prove too easy (or deadly) I'll try to tweak both the parry dice and the mobbing rule.

EDIT: Also, there wasn't any XP in Hero Quest (I think). This rule allows for other units to help their weaker counterparts (such as the Arilou) gain experience. Levelling up would be extremely difficult for the Arilou (except through tasks) if he had to go one on one with any enemy and try to wipe it out with the Peashooter. Now someone else can attack and hopefully weaken the enemy enough to allow a final blow from the Arilou. If the other players choose to do so of course.

One more question: when we advance a level will it be in a style similar to the games like wesnoth or shining force, or we will just gain more HP/other stats/powers/abilities/etc in a manner similar to the one seen in "Nox" crpg? Or we can choose what abilities we want to acquire when leveling up? Or it will be at random (?) ? Or something completely else? I think that the "wesnoth style" would be the most interesting/fun (with branching unit trees etc) for this kind of gaming.

I once again have no idea what your examples mean, sorry. You can't choose what you get if that's what you're asking, I decide that.

I'd have to think that in the case of the players, it might even be prudent to allow them to choose which attacks to parry and which to ride out if their parries for the turn are exceeded (of course, you could apply this to their opponents behind the scenes if you like). Especially in the case of low HP characters like the Arilou, if he's unlucky enough to be hit by several blows and the last does something like -2 or -3 damage, he's definitely going to want to take pains to avoid that one. Then again, that's realism right out the window.

I don't know. I'm just envisioning a boss character, who will inevitably show up with a couple of lackeys and higher damage weapons, really being able to massacre the players without much effort.

Incidentally, why is it that the characters with the lowest HP are the ones assigned the medikits? It seems a bit counterintuitive (I think everyone should have one, at least initially, just to improve the chances of them surviving long enough to fight tougher stuff, but that's just me).

Tangentially related, will the players be able to upgrade their gear between missions, or replace consumables like ammo or medikits? I assume that if one mission leads directly to another with no logical way to do so in between, that bars the idea, but otherwise they should be able to access Star Control's armories to reequip, right? If so, how will that work? Will they simply be able to replenish their used gear, or will they be assigned upgrades based on performance or level, or will they have to purchase them with some sort of currency-equivalent?


I'm glad that upgrades to defenses are also available. In fact, I can see certain characters (Arilou springs to mind once again) becoming very evasive from things like passive psychic powers (somewhat offsetting their complete inability to soak damage)... Of course, I have no idea what you had in mind as far as this goes, so never mind my ramblings if you had other ideas.

If you're going to roleplay the enemies to have different personalities in terms of mobbing and the like, then that should work well to mitigate the more deadly effects of mobbing against the players (or perhaps exaggerate them; I suspect the first scenario involving Androsynth will make any human players with they chose a different race). However, I still have a hunch that the players are going to get turned to mincemeat as soon as they run up against a boss battle (which are, as stated above, likely to include lackeys and anti-mobbing abilities).

I think the real victims of the mobbing rules are going to be the weaker player races. Especially in the case of the Arilou (since using their powers doesn't gain them any XP), they're stuck with a terrible weapon and no ability to go toe to toe with anything. Unfortunately, this also puts them in the ideal role of "softening up" enemy troops, allowing others with better weaponry and more HP to strike the killing blows after their parries are gone. The net effect of this is that the Arilou winds up lagging behind in XP anyway unless the other players make a concerted effort to try and let him score kills... Which is a risky proposition at best for all concerned.

You are correct that Hero Quest did not have an XP system. However, the players collected gold, which they could use to buy better equipment in shops between quests. Players were encouraged to pool their gold in order to make the easiest progress, and so weaker characters like the Wizard usually received defensive upgrades earlier than they would have if they had to only rely on their own supply of gold. Since XP is not a transferrable or poolable resource, our Wizard (Arilou) seems to be SOL on that front (It also didn't hurt that the Wizard had several very powerful direct damage spells in Hero Quest, as well as all of the characters in that game being significantly tougher, with 4, 6, 7, and 8 HP).

Either way, I'm looking forward to see how this all plays out. As you might have guessed by now, I really enjoy the whole planning, tweaking, and early design element of games like these, so I'm probably going to be kind of vocal with suggestions and questions and such. Just let me know whan I get too annoying and I'll ratchet it back a notch. ;)

I'm not sure  what you mean here. If the Arilou manages to parry one strike, and the first enemy manages to hit him with two strikes and the second with one, how would it matter which strike he parries? The end result is still going to be the same.


I can't coment on that other than saying that I don't think that there are any enemies in the game that will be able to outright massacre all characters, even though some groups of enemies will require the team to think a bit and not just charge in.


I may have forgotten to put this into the rules (I'll check afetr this), but players are able to give each other equipment, which means that a Medikit can be given to a player who needs it. I placed the Medikits with the weaker character because I wasn't sure how quickly damage would occur. Because of that I gave the Medikits to the characters with lower HP, to ensure that they could use them if they were wounded early on in battle. Of course, if they choose not to share their Medikits that's their thing, but they aren't going to survive on their own for very long.


That's a bit out of the scope of this game. If I had a happy programmer to help me create an actual small game based on this, I'd set it up so that you could replenish at base after certain missions. In that case I was thinking of implementing a simple weight rule of some sort, and making new gear appear at base as the game progresses. That would ensure that you can't just load up on all sorts of goodies, but actually have to think about what you get. A precursor to this can be seen in the mission, where you can't carry more than two weapons. As it is I'll probably start the next mission off with a roster of level 2 character and pre-set inventories.


They may or may not be. I've got a lot of gear planned out and handy, but we'll see what makes it into the game ;) The Arilou will probably need some help though, I didn't realise that he is as gimped as he is. Similarly, the Shofixti seems a tad too strong right now. But we'll see how he fares later on.


I've assigned some basic roles to different enemies (sentry, patrol, resting) and so on, and then it's slightly modified based on unit. The Ilwrath you see right now are pretty dumb, later enemies won't be.


Good point. I don't want their powers to become insta-kill either though (I had planned to give XP for all Mayhem victims who kill each other, but that isn't relevant now). I'll see if I can't come up with something. After the first levelling, things should become easier on the Arilou though. It's the toughest to upgrade, but may or may not be the most worthwhile as well. Also, keep in mind that tasks give everyone XP, and if they are all completed (some are optional) they will bring the Arilou very close to the next level.


You're right. I'll have to think about giving the Arilou a few more powers to begin with to make him useful. I'll ponder upgrading the character tomorrow.


I'm grateful for all the help I can get. As I said, this is my first time doing something like this, and the game hasn't been play tested (this is pretty much it :) ), so any and all feedback is very welcome. You've presented quite a few good ideas that I'll have to ponder.

Take this hypothetical scenario as an example:

The party is facing 3 enemies, and the Arilou is put into the awkward position of being the target of all 3 (they were ambushed from behind, or something; there are ways this could happen, I assume, without it being the direct result of poor planning on the players' part). The first two attacks are with Peashooters, striking once and causing 1 damage each. The third, however, is from some hypotectical heavy weapon (let's say, a railgun or laser cannon or something), that only strickes once but does 3 damage per hit. Under the current rules, our poor little Arilou is going to waste his 2 parries on evading those peashooters, and will wind up defneseless when that heavy weapon shell comes his way. Considering that it will kill him outright in one shot (whereas even if both Peashooters hit, he'll still be alive), I would imagine this to be a really sucky situation for our little green friend. However, if he could pick and choose which attacks he wanted to use his parries against, he might have a better shot at avoiding vaporization, even if he does come through it with some wounds from the lighter weapons as a result. As I said before, though, that's realism right out the window.

Here's another question related to parrying: Let's say a character takes only one hit from a weapon in a turn. If that character has multiple parries, and the first attempt to parry fails, would they be able to try again? Or are parries assigned on a one strike, one parry basis?


Well, I assumed that characters could heal each other if needed, but that's not exactly the point. From an in-universe standpoint, isn't it a little bit negligent of Star Control to give the first aid gear only to certain races, rather than ensure all of their troops have a maximum probability of survival? I mean, it's not like any of the characters are dedicated medics. And from a gameplay perspective, it would make sense for everyone to have the ability to heal themselves. I realize the parallels between Arilou / Wizard and Syreen / Elf in terms of who had the healing skills in that game, but I also remember healing potions being rather easy to come across as well. This meant that, even during the first quest, everyone was likely to be able to heal themselves, even if only a little bit.


Well, continuing characters could pretty much obey the current set of rules, at least as a simple start. Since each character is limited by their strength as to what gear they can carry anyway, the two-weapon rule should suffice to limit what they can use, especially since there is always the possibility of salvaging better gear during a mission that they might not be able to carry. The only thing you would need to limit is how many "rations" of consumables like medikits or grenades each character could requisition from the armory. Or alternatively, you could use a weight limit rule to give the players a bit more freedom in what gear they can choose. Or perhaps, instead they could be rewarded a "salary" in Starbucks, possibly based on mission performance, which they would use to purchase new gear (though this seems a bit too mercenary, perhaps), which would also effectively limit how much they could carry based on what they could afford.

I'm no programmer, but if you would like a little help working up the basic mechanics of a system like this, I'm totally game. :)


Considering that even the first mission dregs of the Hierarchy have 2 HP, a decent direct damage power wouldn't be a bad idea. Alternatively, a powerful defensive power could easily make the Arilou more survivable. I'm thinking something akin to a Stone Skin power: As a detailed example, Psychic Shield could enable the Arilou to roll 2 defense dice for each parry they make, and once they run out of their usual parries, they would still be allowed to roll one die to defend. However, while the power was active, they would be limited to only using 1 AP per turn. The effect could last for a duration of 2 or 3 turns, or could be cut off early if no longer needed (though this would not restore use of the power).

Considering that within the Arilou's current group of powers, Psychic Blast and Psychic Stun are almost completely redundant with each other (with only the 1 damage effect to set them apart, which is pretty negligible), perhaps replacing one of them would be a good idea.

Ups, sorry for misunderstanding, let me clarify:

I was just wondering in what manner will our characters advance in a level when they gain enough XP. In my previous post I just named a few systems that could be useful and employed in SC: BEL as well -

#1 "Branching Unit Tree Advancement" - this is a system in which a unit after it attains enough XP advances in a level changing itself into a more powerful version of itself. Most unit trees go only two levels further from the original unit, but in some cases they can go to levels 3 or 4 (some very powerful units advance in this manner) and ofter generally two different paths of advancement (rarely three). The best example for this system would be "Battle for Wesnoth" a freeware strategy with simple mechanics yet with a very deep and tactical gameplay. The game is set in a fantasy world but that is irrelevant because here I will only explain the way units level up. For this example I'll use one of the most basic ones - "Elven Warrior". When this unit gains a level the player can choose if he wants to upgrade it to be even more powerful solo combatant ("Elven Hero") or if he wants to forgo some of its melee might to make the unit a better team worker which would confer some bonuses to the units that surround him ("Elven Captain"). The full advancement would be something like:

                            Elven Hero -> Elven Champion (solo fighter path)
                          /
Elven Warrior
                          \
                            Elven Captain -> Elven Marshal (group fighter/leader path)

The advancement is different for different units - elven archers can advance in marksman and sharpshooters, or to choose to forgo some range power for a better melee going for ranger -> avenger build; mages choose if they are going to learn healing or destructive magic paths (white or red mage) which unlock and denies them access to certain spells and so on. Units also have different traits that they get at random when they are created (resilient trait gives them more HP, intelligent lowers their XP cap needed to level up etc)  which makes every unit pretty much unique.

In SC: BEL - when unit advances stats are upgraded automatically and the GM let players decide what path will the unit take for the further advancements; I made a simple example on Arilou Spook unit:

                           Arilou Psy Trooper -> Arilou Psy Commando -> Arilou Psy Assassin (forgoes some of his psychic powers  to become a better fighter)
                        / 
Arilou Spook
                        \
                          Arilou Psyker -> Arilou Neuromancer -> Arilou Metamind (master of the psionic arts)*
etc.

*yes I know they're not original but this is just an example  :)

#2 "Unit Class Advancement" - same as above, except that the units progress in one line (there is no branching) and that line can go up to 5, 6 or more different upgrades, each stronger than the previous in his area of expertise; this system exist in most of the role playing games like d&d and the like, but for this game here the best example would be  "Shining Force" 1 and 2 and some other japanese school RPGs (with which I have little experience so I can't name other examples :p ) So the progression here would be something like: 

footman -> swordsman -> swordmaster -> knight -> paladin -> divine blade -> ... etc.

Game mechanics in SH are somewhat simpler than the Wesnoth (no traits etc) and more akin to those of Heroes of Might and Magic series (but in HoMM units can advance only one level (the stat/abilities system is quite more complex) and from HoMM 5 the unit tree branches into two possible different outcomes).

IN SC: BEL - same as above except that unit automatically advance into hers next unit level on a predifined pattern by the GM without GM or player interference.

#3 "Static Advancement" - most of the japanese and some from the western school of RPG; for this example I'll use NOX. It's an action RPG, but not all that much similar to other games of the genre like Diablo or Titan Quest. When your character levels up his stats are upgraded without any  influence from the player, making for a faster and easier but less interesting play.

In SC: BEL - units stats are upgraded in a predefined pattern made by the GM without interference by the players; no unit advancement.

#4 "Free Choice Advancement" - system of character progression where the player is not bound by classes and can upgrade his character when leveling up in a manner that suits his play best. For me the best computer RPG example for that would be the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system games Fallout 1/2/Tactics and Arcanum. Player can choose from a variety of abilities/skills/stats etc when leveling up and customize their character however he/she likes with said choices.

In SC: BEL - when units goes up a level GM gives players a set of abilities to choose from and allows them to pick which stat (STR, MOV etc) would be upgraded and change their character according to player choices; no unit advancement.

#5 Other - anything that does not fall in the above or the combination of some elements from before mentioned mechanics.

p.s.- I bet the closest answer would be #3  ;D

---

I posted all these examples just so you can see what I had in mind and to give you some insight/ideas for further concepts of game mechanics for this wonderful game you made for us to play with  ;D


Aww  :P At first I was thrilled because that would mean we're playing in original alliance and we could even encounter the Androsynth because they were still alive and kickin'!...but then I remembered that we would not see the Orz  :'( I can't imagine how good it would be to go around in one of those Battle-Armor of theirs - heck, I think they would cover at least 4 spaces on the map. And the firepower...that would be sooo sweet  :)

I haven't actually got any weapons that do more than one damage per strike dice though. If a weapon has the potential to do great damage, it also has the potential to partly or completely miss.


Once the first hit is rolled, you roll the parry dice until you parry or run out of dice.


Their lander is small and cramped. Also, they are fresh recruits out on a desperate mission. Corridor 9 does not want to waste valuable materiasl to keep a fat Syreen, crazy Human and flower-picking space-scared Shofixti alive.  ;)



Keep in mind that right now everyone seems bent on staying outside where there are very few supplies. Inside there may or may not be things that alleviate this problem


I'll keep your offer in mind. However, I don't feel inclined to put a lot of energy into  designing an aspect of the game that cannot be used without the help of both a coder and a artist. Running the one game is pretty demanding as it is. Discussing it even more so ;) As it is I'll keep the idea in the back of my mind, and if we play through enough missions to get a band of regulars I might try and set something like that up (for instance on the SCDB roleplaying boards)


You're arguments are good, and thus I've decided to revamp the Arilou and revisit the HP. I was a bit too afraid of making the unit too strong, and now it seems it is far too weak instead. Let's see if Wawa can't be made slightly more terrifying. Once I'm done with that I'll get back to the next question in this thread.

Edit: I'll OOC this in the player thread as well, but these changes have been implemented:

Arilou now has several new powers.
Old Arilou powers upgraded (Mayhem, Blast and Stun)
Syreen gets one new power
Pretty bauble recharges three powers
Using all powers gives 2 XP to Arilou
Everyone gets + 1 HP

New XP limits for Syreen (6XP, human&Shofixti (7XP).

This should make the game fairer to power players, and more balanced all around. Since Mayhem has been used and now rightfully should have killed an Ilwrath I'm giving Wawa 1 XP, but Wubulu keeps hers as well.

Number one is out. The units are supposed to compliment each other, and this makes it much harder to ensure a balanced group since several people might choose similar paths.

Number two and three sound like pretty much the same thing. This is what I was considering originally

Number four seems a bit advanced for a game of this size. You don't have that many stats or abilities, so picking and mixing that widely would be futile. Maybe if I add more stats later.

Number five is certainly possible. I'll consider  giving you a choice between different abilities/powers/so forth when you level up. If I can work it in well somehow. Thanks for the idea.


Well odd things can happen behind the scenes in a secret war... But maybe not that odd.

I wrote this comment before you had revealed the complete rules for the Paingiver. From the initial, more vague description of it, it seemed to do 2 damage with 1 strike. With how you are handling this now, my original point is pretty moot, since every strike seems to do 1 damage.


I'm assuming I don't need to mention that they gave said fat Syreen a medikit by accident, then? ;)

If additional healing gear does become available, that's good. I suppose it is true that the players haven't been too keen on actually exploring any place they would be likely to find any supplies.


In all honesty, I'm not sure why either would be required. Though some item art would pretty things up, it's not strictly necessary, and thus far, nothing is actually coded at all. Realistically, adjusting player gear could easily be a text-only affair, undertaken during the downtime between games, which should keep it fairly non-taxing. It could even be restricted to a potential roster thread, if such a thing should come to pass.

As a side note, I would be very sad if this game moved in whole or part to the SCDB. I have nothing against the site per se, but it's one of the many that are blocked at work, which would basically make it inconvenient or impossible for me to play/comment/generally annoy with all my rambling. ;D


That's... a lot of new powers. Certainly the Arilou is now a mighty killing machine.


That increase in HP has not been reflected in any of the character data that I saw.

I'm not sure what those XP limits mean. Is that a single mission cap, or is that an increase in the amount of XP needed to gain a level?

I think that is a general increase of XP cap for each level (the latter question in your post). I agree with the cap increase for other races, but I must state here that Arilou now seems a bit broken; that much powers + pretty bauble...he's one lean man killin' machine now:p

Yes, I may have gone a bit overboard...

It is possible. He may not have needed quite so many powers, nor so many that do so much direct damage. Perhaps some of these could become available after gaining levels, or existing powers could improve to these levels after some level ups.

She is pretty charming dude, she probably tricked them into giving it.



This is sort of true, but if I do that I'd like to do it as well as possible. It's also quite unclear at this stage whether this will be some sort of amazingly popular pasttime which requires such a list. Like I said, if we manage to through a few missions and there is popular demand for such a thing, we'll see.


Yes, I went a bit overboard. Downgraded it a bit. If it is still too strong then I'll have to see about more restriction and penalties for using them. I just had such fun thinking them all up :)


That increase in HP has not been reflected in any of the character data that I saw.

I'm not sure what those XP limits mean. Is that a single mission cap, or is that an increase in the amount of XP needed to gain a level?
[/quote]

It has now. S_o_A is right about the XP, edits should reflect that better as well.

Mayhem is still clearly way too powerful for Level 1. 4 damage in a 4x4 area will absolutely ravage Ilwrath apprentices, granting all the XP to the Arilou. Consider upgrading its damage as the caster's level increases. It should be 1 HP damage right now or it'll just kill the Ilwraths without letting them slay each other instead.

Also, you might want to remove the unused powers from the units/items thread, it's confusing.

Good point, I didn't consider that it's area effect. It just seemed piddly compared to the other powers.

Well, one can only hope. If nothing else, I definitely want to get into round 2. Just because I'm vocal about it, doesn't mean I'm the only one (hopefully).


I'm not sure why the gap for levels needed to be wider, especially since you increased it for everyone but the Arilou. With his current damage potential, he will probably be gaining levels very quickly now, at least in the early missions where hitting something with most of his powers will shred it instantly.

I hope that an increased XP cap will be rewarded with equally good and creative level up abilities for other units besides the "Arilou Dreadnought."

One can hope.


XP demand for level 2 may be higher than that of level one. I might still bump him up to 6 as well. This isn't connected to the changes we have been discussing here, but rather to other changes I've been implementing. Seeing as our fighters are quite effective at disposing single enemies, I'm tweaking the enemy numbers in the game to make it more interesting. This means more XP to go around, which means everyone will peak more quickly than anticipated. Thus, XP barriers are now higher. Otherwise they'd wade through without much of a challenge anywhere.


Well, seeing as the Arilou is stronger to begin with, his level increase won't give as many bonuses any more. The strong fighetr units will get useful abilities, and I hope you'll be satisfied with them.

Few thoughts: on the map pic you're using you could add corresponding character names under the "player 1, 2 etc" lines so that anyone who looks at the legend can automatically tell who is who. Also it might be a good idea to change the HP colon into HP/XP so it would show us not just the current health but also our current experience. I guess MOV could be added also, but no need for that it would just make the characters legend overcrowded.

Luki, the latest map you posted in the main game thread does not accurately reflect anyone's HP except Wubula, since she is now wounded (you forgot to add the extra 1 HP). I don't really want to clutter up the actual game thread, thus the post is here.

Incidentally, Sukuzu is totally going to get stung by space bees... Maybe. He might be far enough away now to avoid that humiliating fate. ;)

I see from the Ilwrath's action out of turn that the enemies (at least) can use something akin to overwatch (to borrow a term from Space Hulk / Warhammer 40K), where they keep some or all of their AP in reserve in order to react to actions that occur during the enemy turn. Is this ability available to the players as well? If so, you should probably lay it out in the rules as an option. If not, then I'm forced to assume that enemies always have fixed positions when they aren't being directly observed... but even still, there are circumstances where this ability would be useful (potential ambush locations, an isolated member of the team killed or escapes from an enemy, and that enemy is pursuing the others / its victim).

Also, as a special bonus, this game has inspired me to dig my old Hero Quest set out of storage. Unfortunately, I seem to be missing most of the figures that came with it, probably because I commandeered them for other games. Still, I think I can probably find them... And then I will see if anyone actually wants to play. :)

Yeah, I'll get right on that. It slipped my mind.


Enemy sentries such as the latest Ilwrath now encountered are stationary and can never use more than one AP before their turn. I hadn't thought of making this ability available to players, because I felt that would slow things down. I suppose in a retreat situation moving around a corner and saving a point might be useful though. I'm going to have to think on this, the risk is that any and every room the players encounter, they'll just open the door, peek in and then take up positions outside the door, thus massacring anyone running out. And if the enemies are smarter than that, we'll get long standoffs where neither side wants to stick their head through the door.

It also makes it slower and buggier for me to move the enemy, since I'll have to move it completely, then have them post their interference move, go back and edit the maps and events and redo it. So I'm thinking probably not, the players are offensive characters who can't be bothered to stop before they have to (unless they give up turns)

Since the thread's been quiet for a while, I think I'll pipe up again.


If this ability stays unavailable to the players, then it will really require a lot of caution to successfully use it with their foes. Nobody is going to want to do any exploration if they get shot every time they step around a corner, which will make things pretty counterproductive. Then again, maybe behaviors like this will teach the players to stay together instead of wander around into situations where they might get ambushed while their teammates are several turns worth of movement away.

Of course, if the enemies always (or even almost always) have the initiative, then it may be wise to provide the players with more ways to heal themselves more quickly. While I can't guarantee that you didn't provide for this already, I figure it's worth saying again, especially since one of the worst aspects of this is going to be taking both wounding and stunning hits with no chance to retaliate (like Wubula; she's very lucky not to have been hit again by the second strike).

Here's another question relating to stun. If you get stunned by an attack, can you continue to parry afterward (since this implies you may be too stunned to dodge)? Also, if you take only a single stunning hit and have additional parries remaining, could you roll additional parry dice to try to get a more favorable result, or are you stuck with the stun?

Continuing my previous tangent, I managed to find the minis for my Hero Quest over the weekend, and played a couple of quests with my fiancee. I'm slightly surprised to report that she rather enjoyed it, so we may add the game into our regular rotation. Once we hit the end of the pre-made quests, though, I may have to try to hunt up some of the expansion pack online... but that's a ways off from happening right now. Either way, thanks for reminding me of that forgotten gem, Luki! :)

I don't think it's quite that bad. The map isn't all that large, and we'll heal as we level up. We should just make sure that people who are low on hit points won't be the first to enter a new area unless we know that there are no enemies there.

This ability will be available only to select creatures, and only then when it is logical. Sentries in areas where gunfire has already been heard. Some enemies with lightning quick reflexes in specific situations. The players won’t be entering rooms where several enemies can blast away at them at will, and there aren’t sentries behind every corner.


The players have Medikits, and there may well be other healing items located within the base. They’ll also regain HP when they level up. As meep says, I think they’ll be alright. And if not then hey, space is a tough place where wimps eat flaming plasma death.


Yes. The stun effect eats up an action point in your next turn, indicating that the blast has confused you and you move slower. You still attack and defend with the same number of strikes and parries as before. You can’t reroll a stun, you’re stuck with it. If you are hit by a second concurrent stun it translates into a hit. This you can reroll against until you’ve used up your parry dice. I’ll edit this into the rules later on to make things clearer.


Good for you. This whole game originally came about because we were spending a weekend at my girlfriends’ parents and I found her old copy of the game. Why her parents thought getting an 11 year old girl and her 7 year old brother Hero Quest I’ll never know. They played it once and put it on a shelf. where it lay until I found it. Around that time it had been pointed out to me that the forum was slowing down and that we needed to come up with some new stuff for it. So I had SC in the back of my head anyhow, and the Arilou and Syreen immediately struck me as good Elf and Wizard candidates. It took me quite a few months of doing this on the side to get it ready for this first game, and as we can see a lot of rules have been re-written or reformed during the game, but it seems to be working quite well now.

Added a new section to the rules.

Miscellaneous

Vision

Your characters have a limited range of vision, which is demonstrated by the image below.  Inside this field of vision you can see all characters and objects. Outside it, areas are either unexplored or covered by fog of war.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2s13cx4.png)

Fog of War

When a room or area that has been previously explored is no longer in your field of vision, the room turns grey. this indicates that you cannot see any movement inside this area until you've once again got it in your field of vision. If you discover enemy units or NPC:s in a area, and then withdraw, the map will show the place they had when fog of war fell. If they move under the fog of war, you will not discover this before you return to the area to inspect it again.

also specified Giving


Giving

You can give items to your teammates or NPCs. giving requires an AP, but the receiving something does not consume action points.

Two things: I don't want to nag, but what happened to the civilian alien space blob unit stats and description? And a thing about giving; if we aren't currently caught with spikes flying over our heads and flames searing all around, can we give/take items without the AP fuss (in the same manner in which we forward turns for moving etc, for ease of play)?

Giving doesn't consume AP's when not in battle. Only opening doors and moving consumes AP while not in battle.

I hadn't thought of making the civvies a unit. I suppose that would have helped clear up the confusion as to what they actually are. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll get to it at some point.

EDIT: Done

Since I'm not actually a participant, I didn't want to clutter up the game thread with this... But seriously, we won't see mission 2 until July? Is this due to some other obligation, or just because you think mission 1 will take that long?

It's two parts hyperbole and one part realism. The game is moving slowly, and even though I'm taking steps to combat that it looks likely to go on for quite some time. The second mission probably won't start directly after the first mission either, I'll need some time off from sitting in front of excel. Not to mention that I'll need new graphics, and some other missing elements.

I've also got one tangentially related project in the works which might take up quite a bit of time, and one completely unrelated project which is coming along farily well except for the lack of good graphics. In addition to that work is quite stressful at the moment, and with the economy being what it is it'll probably remain stressful for a foreseeable future. All of this cuts in to my gametime.

On the other hand, seeing as the first game is going fairly well all things considered, I'm pretty certain that there will actually be a second mission.

I've been meaning to say this for a lot of Planck time units already (OK, that's not much at all actually, but anyway) -- parrying doesn't make enough of a difference. Each player-fired shot only has a chance of 2/18 to be parried and a 1/18 chance to be parried with stun (but a 1/2 chance of missing), and different units don't have different enough numbers of parries (some have 2, some have 3, doesn't make much of a difference). To add insult to injury, only one parry dice can be used against one strike dice).

You misunderstand the parry dice. You start rolling your parry dice against the first successful enemy strike. And you don't stop until you've parried the strike or run out of parry dice. So if you have 3 parry dice and the enemy manages two strikes, depending on your success in parrying you can roll three against the first strike, two against the first and one against the second, one against the first and one against the second or one against the first and two against the second.

But I see your objection, parry dice aren't that great for the enemy. You yourself have more use of them, as you don't have to worry about a bullseye you have a 1/6 to parry compared to the enemies 1/9. 

Hey, wait a second....where's my...oh, NO! Great moons of Kyabetsu! My inventory has been ransacked! Grrrrrrr...oh, just wait till I put my paws and claws around your neck you filthy no good worst-than-Orion-pirate-scum space thief...or whoever you are! I'm gonna take my Paingiva', soak it with H2SO4 and make you swallow it in one piece so that the safety handle will dissolve while the gun is still in your stomach and hopefully it will make some fireworks out of your entrails, you leprous reproductive organ of a dead *many many more curses and insults*  :D

No seriously, what happened to my flower? I haven't thrown it away or something...and I'm not a vegan (its against the Shofixti way of life  ;D ), so I haven't ate it; and I like having it around and hoping that it has some supernatural properties yet to be discovered...hm?  ??? *requires  explanation*

Probably bit decay. I don't recall removing it, but I'll put it back.

Hmm, player (and Draxas) input required here. Is the Shofixti too overpowered? It seems that he can outmove and outfight most things. While it's the easiest unit to begin with and the one that benefits the least from upgrades (i.e the others will catch up) I'm worried it might be a bit too fast. Would decreasing it's MOV to 5 balance it better? Or am I overreacting?

I have one more XP than him, so I doubt he's overpowered. Wawa, however, could arguably be too slow.

As a poster child of a space berserker, the only good side of the Shofixti grunt is melee. Low STR means that he will never get better than average (or even fair because these Ilwrath apprentices are the most basic of enemies; who knows what plasma/laser atrocities dwell in the depths of this installation :P ) at range combat, and even the melee is good only 1:1. For example if I was to storm the room with hostages by myself, my death would occur  faster than that some Yehat bystander could scream *BRAAK!* after the fried Sukuzu. Sure high HP, superior parry and great MOV - but they are all required for good melee;  lower HP he'll get killed easier. Lower the STR, he will be left only with melee...and poor one for that matter. Lower the MOV and he loses a lot of his scout value, and reaching enemy gunners becomes a pain in the @$$ because the Ilwrath can outrun him and he'll take more hits by the time he gets to engage them with his claws. Lower parry or number of strikes, he becomes more average and not anymore "little fur ball of destruction" (melee specialist). And I'm not sure that there is a "weapon progression" for melee characters (ranged: handgun -> assault rifle; paingiver -> fleshroaster and so on) allowing the Shofixti Grunt to dish out more dmg per strike. On top of that he has no powers and the least amount of special abilities of all. His strength lies only within the ranges of  his team; leave him alone and he is as "vulnerable&fragile" as the Arilou.

Shofixti is made as a melee specialist and I think that he needs no changes. If some sort of equalization should take place, lower his HP better than to stripe him off his real (only?) strengths/make his level progression slower...or tweak the enemies a bit  ::)

EDIT: Ok, I may be a bit exaggerating but I really like the little rascal and don't wanna him to start accumulating setbacks. I adore him the way he is  ::) :)

I do think that he is overpowered. Just a single movement point more is a big advantage, and he's got two. With the huge damage potential, he's be able to do a lot of the damage. And it's not as if he's just offensively strong, he's got formidable HP too.

I don't think Yetiers' argument holds; we've been cooperating too much for the XP difference to be relevant.

Maybe it would be better if all hp and damage values were multiplied by 10 or so (for the enemies too), so there can be more fine grained differences.

I actually think he's pretty good as is. As Son said, his STR is poor, so he can't really rely on ranged attacks, making melee his only real standout point. He definitely requires a team to back him up, which is fine, since nobody should be trying to go solo anyway. Considering his role, superior HP and MOV suits him well, and while he may be very powerful at the start of the game, he really has little potential for growth... maybe.

Actually, this requires some clarification. Which attributes are going to improve when gaining a level, and in what quantity? The potential for growth is obvious in the cases of Arilou and Syreen (upgrades to their PSI powers), but more ambiguous for the Shofixti and Humans. Depending on which stats have the potential to increase, this could result in some of the characters winding up "broken" and overpowered.

Having been playing Hero Quest again, I can definitely see the parallels between the various characters in this game and Hero Quest. Unfortunately, the comparison breaks down due to some major differences in game mechanics, especially the use of fixed movement points. Here's what I've come up with:

Arilou - Wizard
Syreen - Elf
Human - Dwarf
Shofixti - Barbarian

In terms of starting ability, this is roughtly equivalent. However, the Wizard is not hampered by poor movement (nor is the Barbarian boosted by superior movement either). The Barbarian is the superior fighter in Hero Quest merely by virtue of starting with a superior sword, whereas the Shofixti has his melee skills built in, which makes it difficult or impossible for otehrs to catch up. The Shofixti shares the Barbarian's strength of body, but does not possess the Barbarian's chief weakness: vastly diminished ability to resist spells. He also does not have the Barbarian's ability to use the top level equipment; this seems to be the domain of Humans alone. Speaking of Humans, they seem to fulfill a different role than the Dwarf; in the absence of traps, the Dwarf is a mid-high level combatant with slightly less HP and slightly more magic resistance than the Barbarian. While the HP is reflected in the Human, the combat ability seems to trend more toward top-level ranged specialist.

I don't even know if I said anything sensible or relevant in the last paragraph.

I guess the bottom line is that in order to make a judgement call on the relative power of the Shofixti vs. everyone else, I would need to see the full picture on how each of their ability levels will progress as the game goes on.

By the way, a suggestion related to Sukuzu -
Both Bach and Sukuzu are "damage-dealer" types of characters; one is melee and another one is ranged, but in practice this doesn't make enough of a difference gameplay-wise. Maybe, to further accentuate the difference, we could make Sukuzu a heavy-hitter, while I would remain a regular fighter. What I'm suggesting is significantly lowering his damage output so that he's not as useful as me in combat against mediocre enemies, but giving him a (reusable, but with an interval of, say, two or three turns between two uses) special ability to deal a very strong blow to one enemy -- maybe a "charge" type of thing where he has to first run, say, two squares to the selected enemy unit (to get momentum for the blow), possibly necessarily in a straight line.

Of course, if we go with this, we'll have to increase the XP gained for defeating more powerful enemies, so that Sukuzu doesn't lag behind Bach.

Note that I didn't think the numbers through, they're just examples to avoid using "x"'s.

Cutting one movement point might do the trick. He'd still be faster than the rest of you, but not obscenely faster as now. And he'd still be able to move 2 squares and use 2AP or 4 squares and use 1. As for the brawn, I think he might need it once you encounter larger groups of enemies. The one potential place you've encountered was disarmed by the Syreen Song. Another alternative would be to lower XP limits for the others.

I'll hold off for a few more turns before I make any changes though.

EDIT: Huh, two others posts made at the same time.

Well, levels are about to come into play soon anyway. Basically, once you level, you get two choose between a defensive, offensive and general upgrade. Upgrades can be abilities, (modifications that are in play all the time and increase your potential), Powers (usually non rechargeable spells) and stat boosts. General is the least imaginative area, mainly modifications to stats and abilities that are for special situations.

I think you nailed it pretty good in your last paragraph Draxas. I need to have a think about how to differentiate the ranged and melee fighter better. It might also be a level design issue, larger groups of enemies would negate the Shofixtis abilities.

Yetis idea has merit too, I've been thinking about something similar. I just need to figure out how to do it well.

Thanks for brainstorming with me guys, your advice is all very valuable.

Well this could be the easiest answer. Just lower the bonuses the Shofixti Grunt would receive when leveling and equalize that with other characters with no need to make Sukuzu unhappy  ;D

EDIT: or increase the XP cap for 1 or 2. Also could prove as a good nullifier. Like the ECL rule in d20 (the characters that have higher starting abilities act as if they were few  levels higher (depending on how exactly strong they are) while still being lvl1 effectively meaning that if they want to advance to level 2 they need to acquire enough XP as if advancing to lvl.4 etc)


As good as this new ability could be, I don't think that it fits for the Shofixti as a character. I mean they are not hamfisted Hulk wannabies  :) But there might be another solution for this - giving me the right to use my Shofixti Shword!  :D or some berserk ability. Both can fit the role charging, slicing, dicing, anything. And I REALLY would like to get my hands on a shword...and use it. This of course can be implemented in future levels.

A quick suggestion: Luki, you could add a stylized wind rose in the upper right corner of the map. I think it would look nice,  fill that gap of empty space and be somewhat useful. The art style for the rose (regular look, space age, etc) I leave for you to decide.

I'll see what I can do.

A thing about throwing grenades: are we required to be in a straight line with the target when throwing it (like for everything else) or we can try and lob the thing diagonally?

Striaght line, just like any directional weapon.

Aren't you at least going to make abilities like Never Surprised more useful? 2 parries extra doesn't make enough of a difference.

I'm considering changing the parry values for melee where you've got a better chance of dodging blows. I do think it's logical that parries don't do that much for shooting though, dodging a bullet ought to be pretty hard. I suppose I could play around with those probabilities too, or just change the bullseye into a regular hit.  Never surprised is basically just to ensure that you have less of a chance to slaughter the enemy when you surprise them.

Hmm, unless my math is faulty somehow it looks like having 3 parry dice would normally mean a Synth had a 26.6% chance of getting hit, and five dice reduces that to around 21%. So about one in four to one in five. Likewise the probability of parrying the first shot rises from 23% to 29%. Of course it does nothing to address the 16.7% bullseye. A possible solution would be to go to 12 sided die and keep everything else in place but halve the chance of a bullseye to around 8% and add those other 8% to the hitting side. You'd still have the normal 33.3% chance of injuring your enemy, but more of it would be parriable.

I think I'll leave it the same for now. Cumulative parries don't increase the overall probability to parry that much, but they aren't supposed to. They do increase the probability of parrying that first critical hit by 6%.

Sometime in the future I'd love to implement a distance system to modify the miss probability, but right now that'd be far too demanding from my point of view.

Just curious: how much time does it take to perform one update?

Can we expect to see "the other side of the medal" in some of the upcoming missions after this one we're currently playin' (because I personally hope to see mission 2 and 3 and 4 and...  :D )? What I mean is - can we (all players, current and future) hope to play as Hierarchy Spooks, not just Allied ones?

The Hierachy doesn't seem much like the sort of organisation to employ spooks to me. Sure, Androsynth and Ilwrath can get along well as we've seen, and Umgah are just friendly to everyone until they splice a few extra limbs on, but imagine a VUX and a Spathi meeting for the first time.

The various thralls were forced together by the simple fact that they all got their asses kicked (except the Mycon, obviously). They've got to be resenting that to some degree. With the supervision of a Lord they can work together in relative peace, but as an isolated group with no up-to-date contact with the Hierachy? They might turn traitor, attack each other, fail simply because they are unwilling to function as a unit... the Alliance doesn't have this problem as if they weren't friendly with each other already (creepiness aside) they'd have stayed at each others throats until they were overwhelmed.

The Ur-Quan also aren't much for sneaky stuff. Tactics sure, striking at the weak points fine, but placing a group of untrustworthy people who hate their masters into unfamiliar territory filled, let's not forget, with psychics? That just smacks of stupid. Like trying to get a VUX commando to disable a Syreen's psychic amplifiers on his own. Oh, and the ships have to dock to transfer. That stupid. The only way a commando operation could work for the Hierachy is if a Quan personally accompanied the team at all times, and they hang from the goddamn ceiling! Also even with a Quan watching there's a very real risk of backstabbing, and how would it carry its talking pet without it possibly being stolen if its master was killed?

Bottom line, the Hierachy isn't designed to have spies, so it's a good thing that their military is so strong. The Dreadnought is a prime example of their mindset - don't dodge around and be tricky, just shoot things with a big gun.

You may be right, but from a tactical standpoint it sounds reasnoable that the Hierarchy would at least try to counter Alliances spies to a certain degree. Because if they would leave them all to roam their territory unchecked that all powerful military ceases to be useful do to one simple fact - sabotage. What's the use of a Dreadnaught if it explodes in your starbase when you press "ignite thrusters" button? If that was the case, Alliance would beat the cr** out of Ur-Quan forces even before they could get deep into the alliance space; just deploy few thousand spook teams far into the enemy's area of control and they can start collecting their fleets debris all over the TrueSpace  :P even if they would try to counter this with higher alert levels, more guards, more defensive systems and such, it would eventually prove fruitless and quite expensive, because - any lock can be opened/computer hacked/data or item stolen/leader assassinated given time and will to perform such an act. Even the VUX could start closing their eye in the presence of an Andro or Umgah and cooperate if that would make their trade routes/facilities safe once again. So, I'm prone to believe that even some spy team made by force (and let us not forget that FORCE is the base of all relations between the slave races and the UQ) is better than none - for the greater and common good of all Hierarchy races.
---
I even like that idea of forced cooperation, reminds me much of the "Munchkin" card game; while the team pushes to their mission goal you can trust no one, every step that you make is a possible opportunity that someone can abuse for their own gain, backstabbing and plotting is common as is cooperation in Alliance...I think that the game would be hellowa lot different if (role) played from this angle, and would offer tons and tons of fun and funny situations  :D I would really like to see this one happen  ;D

EDIT: I'm just curious: what program have you and Dabir used when creating unit sprites? I need sprites for a project I'm developing and trying to put under way, but I know next to nothing about "sprite art" (not even sure that this is the name they use for it :P ), yet would very much like to try it out and give it a shot.

I use MSPaint for spriting - whilst a lot of people use Photoshop, you don't need anything especially powerful. Photoshop's really for if you want resizing that doesn't look like ass.

It varies. I've gotten just moving you and writing some flavour text down to 5-10 mins. Bigger descriptions and battles add maybe 5-10 minutes more to that. Having to paint some new scenery adds about 5 minutes more again. So between 5 and 25 minutes. In the beginning it usually took around 25 -30 minutes, but I've gotten the copying, pasting, uploading and so on down to a routine by now.


EDIT: Also SC:BEL:Opposing Force won't be seen for a while. It's certainly not planned for the near future.

A thing about smoke and char sprites in smoke: you could at least put some sort of markers on the cloud (red letter for example; S - Sukuzu, W - Wubula etc.) so we don't have to backtrack to previous map updates to pinpoint our exact location.

The in-game reason for this is that you seriously can't see a thing. the same would be true if you threw it at enemies, they wouldn't become visible until at melee range. But I'll try to work out some better smoke that you can partly see through.

If the smoke is really that opaque, shouldn't the players be unable to see out of it?

The Arilou sprite recieved a slight touch-up 'behind the scenes' recently on account of being dreadful (shame Wawa's been in a cloud of smoke all that time). Those changes were relatively minor, but I thought you might appreciate seeing this one at full size since Luki has to shrink them to keep the grid managable.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m10/dabir/wubula-1.png)
Guess who.

Good point. The out of game explanation was that I didn't have time to deal with it before my vacation. Made it slightly better now.

For those of you following, a few notes about things going on in the background.

- I'm attempting to do a graphical overhaul, which will at it's latest be ready by mission 2. This is why I haven't added a wind rose or any such thing to the current layout, I'm trying to improve quite a few things at once. Hopefully this will show off Dabirs beautiful (and my ugly) sprites much better. Love the new Wubula Dabir, she looks great.

- The upgrade system is now in much better shape than it was before, thanks to Draxas and his keen eye.

Indeed a nice sprite.

Interesting little gizmo, that Stun Baton... How about an obscure rules question to go along with it?

If an opponent is shocked into losing both AP on the first strike, can the user of the Stun Baton then back away without the usual conterattack that breaking melee usually entails? Of course, I'm not going to remark about how smart that idea might be, but it's a possibility.

Yeah, that's logical. I'll edit into the description.

Hey Luki, a petite question -- I'm assuming the attack of opportunity you get when an enemy breaks melee range doesn't use AP? Or does it?

You are correct. Breaking melee range gives the enemy one free strike against which you can't defend, essentially a 50/50 of losing  1 HP. It doesn't consume any of your AP though. The only time this doesn't apply is if the enemy is seen to be so seriously off balance that he won't be able to make use of the opportunity. This occurs when the enemy has been stunned twice during that same round. So far you can only do that with the stun baton, but some future weapons will allow you to do the same.  I'm currently editing some part of the "Double-Stunned" ruleset, things will become clearer once you read that.

Well, theoretically you can "double-stun" enemies by combining Psychic Slap and Psychic Blast, not that any enemy encountered so far would survive that.

Good point. If you find an enemy with 6 HP and mange to pull that combo within the same turn, he's "double stunned", or "temporarily incapacitated".

One very very very important thing about leveling up: is it instantaneous or not? Like, we're in the middle of a laser fight, and I'm left with 2 HP out of 7, and I manage to melee someones ass and get enough XP to attain level 1 - will my HP jump to full immediately and I get to choose my new stat upgrade/ability or I will have to wait until combat ends for the changes to take on the effect (and possibly never get to do that cause I got roasted)?

You level up as soon as you get your XP. I'll let other players finish their moves, but the next enemy turn won't start before you've picked your path and at that stage you'll have full HP.

I was wondering...that Arilou power "Kinetic Punch" is it a personal-only spell or I can use Wawa to cast it on Sukuzu? And what effect of that would be?

Judging from the description ("Since you have a pretty tough mind"), it's personal-only, and you wouldn't get any advantage from using it on Sukuzu anyway, as he'd only be able to use 1 AP for melee attacks in a single turn, thus having only 6 strikes instead of 8.

Sorry for interceding, but I'm tired of the slow pace at which SC:BEL currently goes.

Yetiers has got it right, it's a personal power. If you can use a power on someone else, I'll mention that explicitly.

Too bad :P I hoped that some of the Arilou powers could be used as "buffs" for other team members. Tnx for the clarification anyway Yeti&Luki.

Some can, but that one can't. I'd edit it to make it clearer, but I don't think I can (yet?).

Not wanting to seem naggy or such, but you have to give us a few more clarifications regarding Battlecry. I'm guessing it costs no AP and can be used unlimited times, yes? (Because it would be utterly worthless otherwise, parries aren't of so much use for enemies anyway). It's still not the most useful ability ever, but I suppose that's not a bad thing, given that it's only Level 1 and you've said before that Shofixti get the smallest advantage out of gaining levels, while Arilou get the biggest advantage.

Hmmm...I guess the abilities for the Shofixti were more powerful in the beginning, before Luki decided that some balancing needs to take place. Cause this one seems way to weak for the XP required to get it...although it is at level 1. Maybe it will get some additional effects on levels 2-3 (mass effect, more parries countered etc). But I think that we must wait until all of us level up and then see how big is the difference between the upgrades for different units, before we give our final judgment on the upgrades system.

But all this doesn't mean that I don't like my new "perk" - I think it will make fine addition to both combat and role play, and the idea is totally ok. Keep it going Luki ;)

EDIT: and yeah, I second Yeti in the description department: does this new ability cost AP? And what about range? Does it affect just the first target or all targets that engage/are engaged by the Shofixti? And how many times can it be used per combat/mission?

Being the designer of "Battlecry" and a number of other skills you'll see cropping up, maybe I can clarify for you. ;)

Battlecry is a passive skill; it's "always on" and never costs any AP to use, and in fact its use is automatic from here on out.

You'll notice that Battlecry is tagged as an Ability, which is distinctly different from a Power. Powers are what the Arilou and Syreen have, which are single use "spells" (for lack of a better term) that must be explicitly activated and consume AP to use. Abilities, by contrast, are mostly passive and almost never require activation, consumption of AP, or get used up like powers do. There are a few exceptions to this; some abilities may require explicitly stating that they are being used, but that will be made very clear in the rules for them.

In all honesty, Battlecry isn't terribly useful, though it does provide a minor augment to the Shofixti's already formidable melee prowess. And, as you say, this is because it's a level 1 skill. The talents you pick up as you gain additional levels will get progressively more powerful, which shouldn't come as any surprise I should think.

It has been mentioned that the Shofixti does not benefit as much from level gain as the other races. This isn't exactly accurate; the gains are very different depending on the race, and the Shofixti's earned abilities and upgrades are designed to reflect and enhance their particular place among the alliance forces (AKA: Melee specialist and Scout). Other races will likewise earn upgrades that complement their specific roles in a team, but trying to designate any one ability as "better" or "worse" than another, especially between different races, is at least partially missing the point that the core of the gameplay mechanics is squad based combat.

Wow I didn't know you became a game designer for BEL, nice going :D and great  explanation there for battlecry, you could end up writing a manual or something ;D it's always nice to know you can speak with game designers directly...it's like you're talking to game celebrities. omg omg omg etc ;) ;D

Although I have another question concerning Shofixtis new ability: does it apply only on the "natural" parries a unit has, or on all of them (gained through enhancements or otherwise)? Let me clarify: if we fight against, for example, an Andro Private and Andro Sarge, the Private has 3+2 parries. If we mob him up and exhaust his natural parries (with shooting etc.) and leave him just with "bonus parries" (from leadership) and then I charge to melee his ass, will my bonus apply (cause his parries are now 0+2)? I ask this just to be sure, the question was probably unneeded, because the answer is probably yes. But better to ask this now than to whine about it later in battle ;)

It turns out that Draxas is much better at balancing stuff than me, and has quite a good head for ideas as well. So he'll be producing a lot of content from now on. This makes it easier for me to run things and it makes the game much better overall.

Great, I hope that with Draxxas help we'll see Opposing Forces some time after mission 1 (maybe in mission 2 :) )...too bad just that I can't get the opponents to go in minus with their parries when they have zero left and I use Battlecry; or at least to stun them, take them away a parry for the next round or negate one strike (from fear). Just a few ideas for levels 2 and 3 ;)

Hey Luki, Draxas, and Dabir,

I was planning to DM an SC forum RP using BEL's rules after Mission 1 is finished (partially so that we who are banned from Mission 2 can still continue playing BEL, partially because I just feel like it), but I need your agreement to use your rules and your sprites -- so would you be OK with me doing that?

I will also need Dabir to help me with some more sprites, but first I need to actually plan what I'm going to do (I only have a general idea at this point).

Unfortunately, I have no plans on developing any Opposing Forces content anytime soon; the main game has a ludicrous amount of content as is! However, once we've really fleshed out all the details of the main game, I may revisit the idea. The problem I'm encountering with an early concept is that the Hierarchy doesn't lend itself to specified roles well like the Alliance does, which makes balancing the team play aspect of it difficult. However, perhaps I'll investigate this further later.

I'm always keen on jumping into forum RPs, and have always been saddened that there are none on the site. However, I know Luki has some exciting plans for the game coming up, and you may not want to run two versions of the same game simultaneously regardless. Of course, if Luki says it's OK, then I have no problem with it... Except you're going to be totally spoiled on all of the currently secret details. If you're OK with that...

I don't really have a problem with people using whatever my limited skills can produce for anything as long as it's legal, so consider this a 'do-what-the-hell-you-like' permission unless Luki has any particular objections. Barring that, I'll upload all the ones seen so far (that I made at least) to an album on Photobucket and post the link.

By the way, I will have a completely different storyline from Luki's, so I don't need to be spoiled. I'll also produce my own versions of the units we haven't encountered so far in Luki's game, such as the Mmrnmhrm (if of course Luki hasn't already made them by that time). And thanks, Draxas and Dabir.

EDIT: I'll also have different level-up abilities than in Luki's version, to avoid 1. being spoiled by learning the new abilities Luki has in mind, 2. spoiling other players by showing them what abilities they may get in Luki's version by having them encounter them in my game, and 3. having some of my players know about some of the level-up abilities that have already been encountered in Luki's version. Also, my version will be somewhat more focused on talking, and on choices&consequences, so I might have some skills and abilities for non-combat situations as well.

Here we go, if anyone thinks they can use these or just wants to admire my art, the full-size versions of everything encountered in-game plus the alternate female Human: http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m10/dabir/Behind%20Enemy%20Lines/

Er, I'm afraid I can't log into your album, it says it's a private one.

Oops. Fix'd.

Yeti if you need any help concerning gameplay/system I'll be glad to help, 'cause I sure wanna see more BEL and BEL-like games on this forum, especially the OP. Nice going there with the new projects people btw :D I too tempered with that idea but in MoO2 universe (to change the theme a bit and because I like that game very much also). I developed most of the stats/units/system modifications/storyline but got stuck with sprite art and wasn't sure how well a game placed in that uni would pass on UQM forums :P ...so I guess when I sort that out I'll try to get it up and runnin' :)

On a not-so-related tangent, here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2050863)'s a calculator for the probabilities of the various outcomes of an attack. Just input the defender's HP and parries and the attacker's strikes (the total number of strikes he uses on that turn), and whether the attacker is a player character (and can thus use bullseyes) and you'll get the results. This way you will no longer have to bear me saying "Sukuzu, you should attack X because you have a chance of Y of blah-blah-blah". :P

Yes, I know, I'm such a killjoy...

EDIT: Improved output format and allowed parries to be 0.

Niiice 8) add an SC based icon for it and you're all set! :D

No sweat. Also, if you're interested, don't mind being spoiled, and Luki doesn't object, I've already created basic (though not 100% complete) templates for all Alliance races. I'm trying to flesh out many aspects of the game details at once, though, so I don't know when it will be done.


Fair enough, though at that point you may as well generate an entirely different base system! After all, BEL's core is a strategy game, which has a much different focus than an RPG system. You may be able to refocus gameplay to meet your expectations better if you start with a system that complements your ideas precisely.

Hey guys! Just a quick note on this interesting convo, main update will come much later today:

I'm glad you're thinking about a BEL project Yeti, feel free to use any and all material you've seen so far. Like Draxas said, there's a lot more material. It'll totally spoil this game for you, but it's yours if you want it. After Mission 1 is complete, I'll also be happy to provide the Excel based map I'm using with the graphics as templates, if you want ti. I do think that Draxas makes a good point about RPGing though. If you're going to change things up that much, it might be well worth it to redo the combat and map system as well. In itself BEL is pretty limited when it comes to such things, because it's primarily a table top game with a few extra flourishes.

As a general note on BEL, I've only come up with the concept. Draxas is already replacing me as a cotnent generator, and I don't really feel the need to restrict peoples access to the game. If someone else wants to run a BEL type game, they're free to do so. I'm sure there are plenty of commando teams out there, many with different abilities and weapons.

Also, interesting statistics thing you made. You know what would be handy as well? A combat calculator. If someone were to write a small program which allows me to input strikes and parries and get it translated into results (lost HP, stun, parries left), then that would save me quite a bit of time.

I'm somewhat torn on this, Draxas is good at balancing stuff and such, so I'd benefit from his templates; don't send them yet though, I'll prepare the storyline and non-combat areas and such first, then (if Mission 1 will be complete at that point) I will probably take the templates used in Mission 1 and 2 (from which I can't participate, having been in 1) and use them.


I don't see much need for a different system than BEL; I don't like the exaggerated infiltration of gameplay in non-combat situations, such as Charisma, Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate etc. Some (one-use) powers for such situations is fine, but then that doesn't require a different system. As for combat, BEL does that well, and it would save me time to draw on what's already been done.


EDIT: Here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2051732) it is.

EDIT: I now realize that I'm not so sure whether a failed parry still subtracts from the amount of parries remaining on that turn, or whether you just keep going until you've gone through all available parries, or score success. I've written both programs with the assumption that the latter is true, so correct me if I'm wrong. It's trivial to fix for the diceroller and easy enough to fix for the probabilities calculator.

Also, even if my assumption was right, it seems I still need to fix the prob calculator, as I mistakenly made it only use one parry per strike.

Fair enough. If you only want the basic stuff, I'd ask you to not reveal any of the level 2 stuff before it's been seen in BEL. If you take the whole shebang then feel free to use it in advance. I don't like my surprises spoiled, but since it's for a good cause.


Fair enough, I just don't think the movement system is BEL is very conductive to RPG elements. It's a very much on the rails game.


Yeah you keep rolling parries until you succeed or run out. So you can use up 5 parries to counter one hit if you're unlucky. But you can also use 2 parries to counter 2 hits and still have 3 left in reserve. Looks good.

Regarding parries, that's not what I asked. I was asking something like this, to use an example: say your opponent rolls a hit, and you have 5 parries left. You fail 2 of them, but succeed in blocking the hit at the 3rd. Do you now have 2 parries left (5 total minus 2 failed minus 1 successful) or 4 (5 total minus 1 successful)? Note that I'm counting a stun as a success, unless you're already stunned. Has my example stunned you already? :P

Ah I see. In that case you have 2 parries left.

Looking at the "diceroller" program it seems that's just what I had it to do; all that must be fixed is the probabilities calculator then. I'll return later, probably tomorrow.

A slight problem here: you say that a second stun counts as a hit; does that mean that if you're already stunned and roll a stun, you stop parrying and lose one HP, or does it mean that you just fail that parry and keep rolling (if you have parries left)? The diceroller assumes the latter, so it'll have to be fixed if the former is the correct one.

Once you are already stunned, another stun result is considered just a failed parry. So you have it right.

Jeez, the wording of the parry rules sure does need revising. Anyway, here (http://)'s the fixed calculator.

EDIT: Still not right... don't use it yet. The values don't match what you get if you make tens of thousands of tests with the diceroller and average them and compute the probabilities from this. I don't think the diceroller is wrong, so it's probably the probability calculator.

EDIT: The diceroller was wrong on at least two counts; it might be that the probcalc is good while the diceroller is broken. I'll look into it, then post the fixed versions once I get them to agree with each other (at which point there can't be any bugs left).

EDIT: Good. Fixed. The diceroller was the bugged one indeed (and it was such a trivial bug that I'm surprised it escaped my sight for so long).  Here (http://www.savefile.com/files/2057961) is the fixed diceroller, and herel (http://www.savefile.com/files/2054308) a link to the "statistics thing" just to have both in the same place. The two programs now agree with each other. They're friends now. ;D

EDIT 2: Yet another small bug in the diceroller fixed (this one added 1 to the number that show during which strike the death occured). Redownload it if necessary.

I can't believe I'm writing this, but here are the rules for moving furniture. To be updated into the first post once I figure out how to smoothly add them.

Moving furniture

There are many large objects in the game, such as chests and tables. These objects can't be picked up, but they can be moved. They are generally heavy and require cooperation. Once you are standing by an object, you can move in any direction, both pushing, pulling and moving sideways is all right. You'll only need to rotate things to get them in through doors. Objects that are larger than two squares can only be moved by their short ends or the middle of their long side.

If several units are carrying an object together, they must all touch the base of the object. Carrying items like this carries no defence or offence penalties or bonuses.

An objects grid size is used to determine the movement penalties added while a character is moving it. If the object covers a single square, the movement penalty is -1 MOV.  If the object spans two squares, the unit loses half of it's MOV (rounded up). Thus a 4 MOV character can only move two squares if it is carrying such an object. If the object is 3 squares, the units movement is reduced to 1. If something is bigger than this, a single unit cannot shift it.

Rotating objects

An object can be rotated by any unit whose base touches the objects base. Rotating an object consumes 1 AP, irregardless of object size. In order to perform a rotation maneuver, the area through which the object is rotated must be clear of other objects or units. The necessary cleared area consists of all squares with which the object makes contact while being rotated. Thus rotating a 1 square object requires that all squares adjacent ot he unit rotating is empty.  Long objects can also be rotated by their wide side.


Working together

Several units can work together to move larger objects. The penalties for moving large objects are then reduced to the largest possible penalty. If two units are moving a 2 square object, they can move a maximum of the slower units MOV reduced by one, as each is carrying a square. If they are moving a 3 square object, they can move a maximum of the slower units halved movement range as the slower unit is then counted as carrying two squares.

Destroying object

Many objects can be destroyed by setting them or fire or hacking them to bits. This is not recommended for a squad of sneaking commandos.

Typo?

As long as you're making rules, what about rotating object larger than one square?

Rotating almost done, will add some images for clarification later.

Man, the kind of stuff I do for you guys.

Well, you fellows and your creativity have certainly given me some more stuff to do. :)

I spent some time last night drawing up rules for Torches and other, more "standard" flame based weaponry in the aftermath of what you guys are doing. Now the game should heartily endorse your apparent deep-seeded need for pyromania. ;D

Of course, expect complementary rules for things like fires that run out of control and burn down entire buildings with you in them. ;)

And when we get to slightly more high tech environments, sprinklers and fire alarms.

More things to be tactically exploited. :)

Excellent. Now how about you guys go back to planning what you want to drag where?

OOC: There is another variation we could go for: put the table where I placed it in the picture, and build a secondary barricade right inside the eastern room, so we can independantly light them.

Some clarification is required with respect to moving objects:

• Can you move them in any direction? (Push, pull, shift left/right)
• Do you have to move too, or can you move the object while holding your own position?
• If you have 4 MOV, but have used up 2 MOV to get next to a 2-square object, are you then counted as having 2 MOV (and thus being able to move 2/2=1 more squares carrying the object)?

That's actually a better way of doing it. I'll update it into the rules.

"Once you are standing by an object, you can move in any direction, both pushing, pulling and moving sideways is all right. You'll only need to rotate things to get them in through doors."

You have to move as well.

Your total MOV is four, and you are moving something that is one square larger than you. Therefore your moves are halved when moving this object. Your current MOV is 2, and that is what is halved and rounded. So you can move it one square.

I still have a few things that need clarifying before I can propose an itinerary:

• If the table was lying horizontally between the two doors, and the door to the eastern room was closed, would an enemy sitting in the western room be able to move the table N or S, and would he still be required to move N or S as he does so?
• When two units are carrying a 2-square object, they both have to move, correct?
• Are there any penalties for moving flaming objects?
• How exactly can you torch an object? Can anybody do it provided he touches the object and has 1 AP (unless not in combat), or do you have to use a weapon like the Fleshroaster? Can I put the spare Gas Tank on the table and shoot it to make it burn?

Hey Luki, I think I'll save you some effort here. See the original description for the Gas Tank:


Sounds to me if you try to remove the thing, you're pretty likely to blow yourself up, or at least immolate yourself. Both would make for a good show, though! ;)

What I meant was whether both units change their position, or only one of them. One of the previous descriptions seemed to imply that only one needs to actually move, I'm guessing that in the current incarnation of the rules, both need to move (i.e. change their position)?


Yeah, but as far as I understand, apart from the Gas Tank in the Fleshroaster, we also have a spare one in our inventory.

Anyway, thanks to both of you for the clarifications, definitely helped.

EDIT: Not related, but I just came to a horrible realization -- there is no goddamn toilet in this whole goddamn base, or at least not in the low-security part!

This is one of those rare circumstances where you are both right. This is possible because I am wrong. Draxas is correct in that it is impossible to remove a connected Gas Tank from a Fleshroaster. But Yeti is also correct in that anything shown in the inventory is spare ammunition, as the current clip is loaded into the weapon and not shown in the inventory.

Looking back through the thread, it emerges that the fault is mine. Mr. Bach picked up a Fleshroaster, not a Fleshroaster with a spare Gas Tank. Why I entered an extra Gas Tank in Mr Bachs inventory list we will never know. But I personally blame pixies.

Anyhow, I'll edit the inventory to mirror the truth, i.e there is no spare Gas Tank, but only the one alrady connected to the gun. Which you'll be using to set fire to things.

I'll look through your moves more thoroughly this evening when I have access to my board Yeti, but they look fine to me. Unless Dabir or Son posts an objection to you moving their units (which i doubt), we'll be ready to go this evening or tomorrow morning at the latest.

It may be a good idea if Bach doesn't use up all of the Fleshroaster's charges on enemies, in case we want to burn down something else in the future.

Units
Player Units
Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546)
Human Trooper (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56575#msg56575)
Shofixti Grunt (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56573#msg56573)
Syreen Squaddie (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56559#msg56559)

Enemy Units
Androsynth Private (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57506#msg57506)
Androsynth Sergeant (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58114#msg58114)
Ilwrath Apprentice (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56605#msg56605)
Ilwrath High Priest (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg59040#msg59040)
Ilwrath Male Infant (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg59414#msg59414)
Ilwrath Priest (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56811#msg56811)
Ilwrath Warrior (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58535#msg58535)

Neutral Units
Green Alien (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57212#msg57212)

---

Powers
Active Powers
Blurry (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56718#msg56718) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Brainfreeze (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56716#msg56716) (?)
Confusion (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56560#msg56560) (Syreen Squaddie (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56559#msg56559))
Despair (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56814#msg56814) (Ilwrath High Priest (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg59040#msg59040), Ilwrath Priest (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56811#msg56811))
Fleet feet (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56717#msg56717) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Hatred (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg59041#msg59041) (Ilwrath High Priest (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg59040#msg59040))
Kinetic punch (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56720#msg56720) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Mayhem (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56551#msg56551) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Pheromones (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56721#msg56721) (Syreen Squaddie (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56559#msg56559))
Psychic Blast (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56549#msg56549) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Psychic Flash (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56715#msg56715) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Psychic Radar (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56548#msg56548) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Psychic Slap (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56550#msg56550) (Arilou Spook (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56546#msg56546))
Untouchable (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56719#msg56719) (?)

Passive Powers
Battlecry (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58298#msg58298) (Shofixti Grunt (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56573#msg56573) L1 offensive)
Fallback (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg59292#msg59292) (Human Trooper (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56575#msg56575) L1 defensive)
Leadership (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58116#msg58116) (Androsynth Sergeant (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58114#msg58114))
Never Surprised (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57507#msg57507) (Androsynth Sergeant (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58114#msg58114))

---

Items
Firing weapons
Automatic Rifle (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56576#msg56576) (Rifle Clip (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56578#msg56578))
Fleshroaster (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56812#msg56812) (Gas Tank (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56813#msg56813))
Handgun (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56561#msg56561) (Pistol Clip (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56556#msg56556))
Paingiver (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56677#msg56677) (Spike (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56678#msg56678))
Peashooter (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56547#msg56547) (Pistol Clip (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56556#msg56556))
Personalised Handgun (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57871#msg57871) (Handgun Clip)
Slayer (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58753#msg58753) (Plasma Charge (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58754#msg58754))

Direct weapons
Bonecrusher (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58755#msg58755)
Ceremonial Dagger (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56562#msg56562)
Combat Knife (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56577#msg56577)
Dull Knife (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58838#msg58838) (formerly Mysterious Knife)
Saber (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58376#msg58376)
Stun Baton (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57837#msg57837)

Throwing weapons
Grenade (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56574#msg56574)
Smoke Grenade (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56552#msg56552)
Spike Grenade (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57406#msg57406)

Armour
Androsynth Armour (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57901#msg57901)
Table Shield (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58445#msg58445)

Ammunition
Gas Tank (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56813#msg56813) (Fleshroaster (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56812#msg56812))
Handgun Clip (Personalised Handgun (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57871#msg57871))
Pistol Clip (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56556#msg56556) (Handgun (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56561#msg56561), Peashooter (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56547#msg56547))
Rifle Clip (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56578#msg56578) (Automatic Rifle (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56576#msg56576))
Spike (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56678#msg56678) (Paingiver (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56677#msg56677))
Plasma Charge (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58754#msg58754) (Slayer (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58753#msg58753))

Various items
Androsynth Eye (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg58086#msg58086)
Androsynth Note (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57899#msg57899)
Chemical Cocktail (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57900#msg57900)
Flower (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56723#msg56723)
Medikit (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56553#msg56553)
Playback (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56563#msg56563)
Pretty Bauble (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg56555#msg56555)
Protective Charm (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4377.msg57164#msg57164)

Luki: What is the deal with Brainfreeze and Untouchable?

Huh, interesting.

Untouchable is implemented, but nobody has access to it yet. Luki jumped the gun a little when we encouraged him to develop a variety of powers for the Arilou way back when.

Brainfreeze... That's a bit of an oversight, actually. It's currently entirely unimplemented, though don't be too surprised if it gets recycled onto a Hierarchy PSI user at some point in the future. ;)

That's quite a useful reference you've cobbled together; it'll make my life easier finding the info I need, anyway. Thanks!

Yeah, I'm going to steal that for the other thread, thanks. Brainfreeze was an Arilou power that I posted, but I realised that it wasn't much use. It's essentially exchanging one AP for two of the enemies.

Since we've encountered muchly more stuffs and peeps, I've updated the full-size graphics archive (http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m10/dabir/Behind%20Enemy%20Lines/) with everything we've run into and over so far.

Hey, that's pretty good! Love the difference between Wubula and the stock Syreen. Now get your butt to the other thread and tell me how Bach moves, or I wont move him at all when I update tonight.

Bach's upgrade is the ability to ignore the rule that gives the enemy a free strike when he flees? A rule which we all had to be reminded of when we tried it after 4 months? Why not give him the ability to turn his head 360 degrees instead? Just as useless, but more fun.

Not every mission will give you the luxury of never being jumped and forced into close combat with some exceedingly nasty creatures. Heck, maybe not even this one.

EDIT: Also, you would have loved the offensive option  :P

I sure hope Wubula's upgrade won't be the ability to turn orange.

That depends on the type of upgrade you pick.

A hint please :) *blink-blink*

It doesn't turn you purple.

Is the Fallback ability automatically activated when withdrawing from the first enemy, or can Bach decide to save it for later in the turn (to flee from more than one enemy, for instance)?
(I'm updating the units/items index, and I want to know where to put it)

First enemy only. After that they catch onto the trick... At least until next turn.

There wouldn' t be a trick initially. The scenario I'm talking about is that Bach would run away, taking the free strike, and then from his new position he would flee again, using the Fallback ability.

The usage of "allows" and "can [only] be done" in the description of the ability ("Allows the user to break away from melee combat range without suffering a free strike from the enemy. This can only be done once per turn.") suggests that using the ability is a choice.

That was not really the intent, though. I'll adjust the wording. It should read "This can only be done once per turn, against the first free strike."

Ok, I've moved it to under "Passive powers" in the units/items index.

Added the list to the units thread, thanks meep. It makes it much clearer and easier to find things. Also, thanks to Draxas for clarifying that rule.

You're welcome.
So will you be maintaining the list from now on?

Also, I'd put a horizontal line between your introduction and the start of the list.
Oh, and as you've been the only one posting in that thread up until recently (if I'm not mistaken), maybe you'll want to delete those last few postings of us commenting on the misplaced map.

Yeah, I'll keep it up to date from now, thanks for the suggestions.

As strange as it may be, I find the ending presented by our GM quite more appealing than if we were ever to get to the end of the mission - a true cliffhanger that will forever be left shrouded with mystery! :D A+ quality fuel for someones imagination and a best way to end a good story, I say :) because the best stories are left unfinished and untold...

Well done Luki! 8)

It's been a nice read , I didn't want to interrupt while it was going , but here are my thoughts on the issue - The planning on the move in the middle of combat is absolutely wrong ! You might plan ahead when in safe position , but once engagement started - everybody is on his own , acting his character . It is , of course , possible to shout out during the fight , but no strategies during that (very short) time . Another thing was the artefacts - detailed function description is wrong - if the party wants to find out what it does - they have to experiment (and risk taking damage) .

Yeah this whole thing has been an absolute blast to read. I gotta agree that the detailed planning in the midst of the combat is a bit iffy, but on the other hand this is supposed to be a well-trained team who would have procedures for action for a large variety of situations worked out well ahead of time, but that's not really feasible for a game.

Personally I think giving the information on how items function works quite well for this sort of game. While it works for a standard Pen and Paper RPG for players to have to test to find out what an unknown object does which can lead to whole other adventures, it doesn't really work so well on a game of this sort which is more about the tactics than the role-playing (though everyones roleplaying certainly made it more enjoyable to read). I do like that some items weren't made immediately obvious though... I still wanna know what the flower did if anything... poor flower.

Though as one point of critique, the way the Androsynth's Never-Suprised ability works seems a bit hinky... and seems to me that it led to part of the games slowness, a good bit of "open door, start combat with andros, close door, let never-surprised wear off" honestly the only way I can see for that ability to function well would be if the game had a surprise system of some sort, and the andro's weren't affected by it... but on the other hand adding surprise to the game would favor the players a bit much since enemies are reactive rather than proactive, the PCs would never be surprised...

So you would need to either make the enemies slightly tougher to compensate... or alternatively... when PCs come across enemies give them some chance to notice the players and if they do they get to make a snap shot whatever player is appropriate (generally the one that opened the door) and that would be a surprise attack, if they fail (or if some of them fail if it's done individually, which would probably work best and on the scale of the game would add negligible time to combats) the player's turn proceeds as normal and any enemies who haven't acted are surprised.

Now as to how surprise works... that would probably need some tweaking, don't want it to be too major because if it stays as is and only NPCs can be surprised that favors the PCs too much, and if the PCs can be surprised it favors NPCs more because PCs will have more chances to be surprised (since presumably NPCs die at the end of any given combat and PCs survive to potentially get surprised later).... It would probably be best to still have some parry chance, since, if I understand the combat system correctly, if there are no parries attempted there is an extremely large likelihood of all hits getting through (or maybe it's guaranteed can't remember exactly). So perhaps you lose a number on the parry, like if it's you normally parry on 1,2, or 3, you only parry on a 1 or 2 when surprised... I don't think simply losing a parry chance would work properly as it would have almost no effect on the first 1 or 2 attacks (depending on the original number of parries)

addendum: Oh and I gotta say I like how Luki ended it despite the team not technically completing the mission before time up, leaves a chance that the party could show up later, but not guaranteed they all survived... hmm that would make an interesting mission for the next team assuming it's all new characters... rescue the original team :)

And boy does all this really make me want for a SC RPG or Tactical game... or anything dealing with the universe on a smaller scale... hmm I wonder if theres any open source games that could be modded for this purpose...

I can't resist saying it... Stay tuned to this channel! ;)

And God  please let it there be more role-playing and less dry tactics :-\

Thanks for all the comments guys, I'll attempt to answer and get some discussion going.


I'm not sure about this. The game is a strategic game at heart, and different movement patterns and action patterns lie at the core of it. If I ban that kind of discussion, what's to stop players from doing it in PM's or email anyhow? If they do it in the thread, at least I can answer and clarify things.


I've worked from the assumption that once the players get their hands on something , they will be able to figure out how it works. I suppose this would add to the realism, but wouldn't it basically amount to firing/using each thing once while not in the combat phase?

Koosemoose: I agree that never surprised is broken. I originally put it there to make sure every room didn't get massacred before having a chance to return fire, but it didn't work very well. I'll have to rework it somehow, or possibly have Draxas rework it.


This was one of my main purposes behind running both BEL and ABKS (http://www.star-control.com/forum/index.php/topic,1746.0.html). Great sequels aside, the SC universe is big and rich. There is plenty of space for smaller games where you don't save the universe single handedly. If you're interested in SC on a smaller scale, PM me and I'll let you know what's cooking at this stage. No sense in duplicating efforts eh?

SoA: You may just have your wish come true. While we're hard at work expanding the tactical game BEL with Draxas (and adding a new dimension to it), I'm also considering doing a different set of rules for a more "roleplayish" game, which would share the same combat rules but bee more free form in between,. Sort of a cross between BEL and ABKS.

How about personal integrity ?
For the weapons , yes . But not for stuff like the mystic staff .

Well, if your GM imposes unfair rules is it really a bad thing to go around them? Anyway, I think that's a question of taste really.  The game clearly showed that different types of players enjoy different things. meep and Draxas were clearly playing  strategic game, theorizing and plotting different combat scenarios. Not letting them do so would (presumably) have made the game much less enjoyable. SoA on the other hand, was playing it more as an RPG, playing a character rather than a game. Valaggar, when he was still around, fluctuated between the two and Dabir was more of a role player as well. For them the game may well have been more enjoyable in the beginning, when the challenges weren't as steep and didn't demand careful planning.

And I do think many of the rooms required this sort of planning. The game is quite deadly, and if the players do not coordinate well then they will be wiped out fairly quickly.


Well they did have psionic units as well, who might be adept at figuring out things like this. Why couldn't the psionic units test things like this?

I think this is a problem in the RPG/tactical setup as well. In a RPG, there'd be no problem carrying around a few extra items and testing them out. In a mission based tactical game, using an object without knowing how it works in combat ight be fatal. It also adds extra turns and slows the game, something I've tried to avoid at all costs.

I've always been a bit of an armchair general, and as Luki said earlier, the focus here is supposed to be on the strategic game. Don't get me wrong, I love me some good RP, but that's often unnecessarily difficult to do within the framework of a strategic game (which is to say nothing of the terribly unlikable character I inherited).

Without the ability to really plot out our moves within a turn, we would have all been dead very quickly. While the enemies we fought were mostly weaklings individually, we were almost always outnumbered (as is the norm in strategy games) and their guns packed just as much punch as ours. Without the ability to adjust our plans for contingencies or figure out the best ways to tackle a situation, we would have been toast very quickly. As it is we were in some trouble when the mission ended.

Luki's mention of a more freeform version of this game makes me a happy guy. I think a division between the strategic and RP aspects of the game is perfect; it lets everyone play the sort of game they prefer. That's not to say that they shouldn't be allowed to mix in between the two games, but keeping the focus on one or the other should only enhance the experience. I'm looking forward to the launch of both games (and am trying to keep up as best as I can with the BEL content to ensure that happens as quickly as possible).

The branch I'm considering leaves the main strategic engine intact. I think the full strategic game with much RP stuff will be usable for those only want to play a board game, and certain other applications that are being pondered. On the net though, the tactical game slows things down unnecessarily. I'm currently inclined to leave the combat engine in both branches similar, i.e when you encounter enemies in the RP you find yourself in the tactical game, but otherwise do away with the turn based system. I've already taken some preliminary measures to do this in the beta game, only using AP's to move when not in combat, just moving characters and whatnot. I think that this will be faster and more interesting in the long run, for this sort of forum play at least. Using the same combat system is important though, since that means we don't have to duplicate our current work. The RP version could have more odd objects and such of course.

Well what's there to say except for that I can't wait to see the sequel :)

I certainly would find this easier to follow for me, as an outsider, if the players would make it more clear which character they are controlling in each post :). Perhaps it's an idea to do this like most RP boards do, namely creating separate accounts for each character and GM.

Well, the players mostly use their player names "Wawa does something" or "Sukuzu does this" and the names and corresponding character can be found on the map. I'll take this into account though, maybe it could be streamlined somehow.

This is still puttering forward, albeit slowly. Now that the PNF has launched it might move a bit more quickly. The corner graphics are stand ins, I'm working on getting some newer stuff. This is for the first reimagined first map (or a surprise, we'll see). the second level will have different graphics, this is just to show you progress is being made.

(http://i26.tinypic.com/2djt8g3.png)

Is that bad connection at the door my fault or did the shrinking screw it up?

I put the door on the concrete, much as I made the corners. See why I need your help?

Hey guys. Here's an image of how the new interface would look.

(http://i34.tinypic.com/2usagev.png)

I've also started a project thread (http://www.star-control.com/forum/index.php/topic,1956.new.html#new) on the SCDB to gather as much comments as I can. Unless this place completely dies mission two will probably still be played here though. This place has been pretty quiet fro some time, but I'm betting there's still enough life here for another level. I'm mostly done with the graphic interface, and only waiting for some graphics stuff from Dabir now. If there is any other graphics artist out there who wants to help Dabir out, especially with object art and some interface stuff, give me a holler. Anyways, let me know what you think of the current setup. The walls around the Shofixti are the newer type and the one I'm going to go with. I might add the grid back though.

Very nice. I do think that the grid should be brought back, as it can be hard to count the number of squares now.

Are those Shofixti vector drawings?

No, I took the original sized sprite, doubled it, smoothed it out, doubled it again and repeated. You can see the first doubling there on the right.

OMG I was cloned! But if this is me and you are him then who am I?! Ahhh, Sukuzu swarm warms my heart :)

This "beta" looks darn good. Well done Luki&Dabir. I just hope you won't overdo it so we could get the nxt mission on the role ASAP...

I agree. Here's a shot with fog of war in the original room and unexplored parts blacked out. Ignore the Syreen, I botched the cutting job there.


Once I have the gfx for the next level and get around to updating the combat rules sheet we'll be good to go. However, I wonder if we should skip the moving system except for during combat and just let you role-play a bit freer during the non.combat phases. Opinions would be appreciated.

(http://i38.tinypic.com/11j94wj.png)

Neverwinter Nights also has fixed movements inside combat, and non-fixed movements outside of combat, if I remember correctly.  The transitions into and from combat were quite seemless.

I think tracking movement outside of combat is important in case of things like ambushes or players splitting up to scout ahead, or other similar situations, since the players can't always predict when a battle might start.

Draxas has a good point there, but we could go with role playing and just go with the rule that the 1st "surprise" round goes to the attacker.

Are we gonna get to see any of the other alliance races in M2? Yehat and  Chenjesu preferably? :)

EDIT: I just noticed - Suuzu is wearing shades! :D 8)

It doesn't need to be tracked per sé. Characters could just say 'I want to go there' and then Lukipela will throw some dice to determine if there are random encounters, based on the size and dangerousness of the area the player is traversing.

Currently, rules exist for the following additional races: Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm, Yehat, Mycon, Spathi, and Thraddash. The Ur-Quan and VUX are still in development, but should be finished in time for mission 2; that will encompass all of the SC1 era races. I have eventual plans to draw up rules for SC2 races as well, but that's much further off on the back burner.

Before you get too excited, however, note that there will only be 6 playable Alliance races. The Chenjesu will be limited to NPCs only.

And VUX are happy to hear that they will make it just in time for the nxt mission :D

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2u4k294.jpg)

EDIT:

But I do not fully understand why Chenjesu can't be fully playable as other races will; I guess that MOV could be an issue here (=0.1 :)) but that can be solved by giving them access to those hover pods a la Yoda they're using. The other problem would be their inability to use common alliance equipment due to their extremely different physiology...but then, why wouldn't you make an entirely pacifist unit? Give them an extra low xp cap and some interesting level up abilities and the rest would be pure role playing gold. I bet they would fit the role of hackers/xenotechs/scientists or something similar perfectly.

EDIT 2: Something like this:

Chenjesu Researcher

XP 0/2
HP 4
STR 0
MOV 1 (2 [sun juice] or 4 [hover pod])

Weapon: none
Melee: none
Defense: 1 parry (0?)

Special Abilities: Protruding Crystals, Increase Core Density, Bypass Door, Hack Computer, Hyperwave Transmitting - emitting, Hyperwave Transmitting - receiving, Piezoelectric sensor

Powers: Light, Electric Surge, Photolytic Burst, Crystallize, Intelligence

Power rule: same as for Arilou

Inventory: Hover Pod, Sun Juice, USC Device

---------------------------------

...this is just what I came up in a moment^^ ;I'll post power etc. description later this day. With some polishing I bet the Chenjesu would be as fun to play as Shofixti or Arilou.

EDIT 3: Unless of course it is a plot necessity.

Well, the transitions would be quite seamless here as well, since I'm doing all the work in the background.


Good point. The last mission had some pretty natural barriers that prevented this (corners&doors), but eventually this wont be as natural once we get outside.


This game works more like XCOM than Final Fantasy. There are no random encounters or travelling on World Maps.

Son: Not every race needs to be playable. Once the system is ready anyone can modify and adapt it, so you can add your own units and run your own games with them. How are your other games going btw?

D.E.A.D. :P

I tried to inspire players on several "native" forums I visit regularly, but the best track I had was 2  1/2 months (with my Fallout game). Most of them were just foolin' around and didn't even want to try to be a bit serious about the game (and scenarios were not half bad at all). As the time went on they were actually spending more time finding ways how to exploit and abuse game mechanics for their own benefit then actually enjoying the game. I tolerated this as much as I could but pretty soon got bored and with my RL going hectic again and all I just got sick of the whole thing and bailed...so I decided to give forums a rest for a time and leave these things to pros.

But now I'm back, ready to participate and help as much as possible ASAP ;)

I'm sorry I haven't follow through the whole "Adventures" game but I really lost it in one moment and just got sick of all play by post games :( but that won't stop me from reading through the topics now :D

Okay.. too bad. I like XCOM a lot but I think the movement system they use in landing missions is only suitable for those landing missions, not for anything else ;). Besides that, try to make the movement system work with the type of game you're playing. This is a forum game, it is already slow, don't make it much slower by adding useless and boring stuff or you risk losing players halfway through.

As Luki said, not every unit needs to be set up as a PC. The way we've designed the Chenjesu pretty much precludes their use by a player; they pretty much exist in order to allow for objectives in escort or defense missions that may or may not be in the future. ;) The current design has quite a few details that would make them ill suited as PCs, not least of which is their size: We've interpreted the Chenjesu, along with all of their hover equipment and whatnot, as being significantly larger than all of the other Alliance races (2 X 2). Designing a single map around a Chenjesu NPC is bad enough, it's too much trouble (and fairly unrealistic) do design every map to allow such a large unit to move anywhere it wants.

This is to say nothing of the issues you already raised in regard to its abilities and equipment.

sorry to hear about your games Son, I found them interesting although I couldn't understand much. it's always a pity when players are there more to break things than have fun. BEL was lucky in that way.



You have plenty of time, I put Adventures on hold when I lost my internet connection. The very crappy connection I've recently got makes me feel guilty about not restarting it, but between BEL and PNF (and work in a foreign country) I currently have my hands full. No use burning the candle in both ends...


This is why I'm considering scrapping it out of combat in the first place.

How about this: when not in combat, people can move freely, but when one player encounters an enemy, the other players may position themselves on a square around him/her/it, with one AP to spend.

OT: Congrats Luki, post  #3000! You indeed are THE ancient one now, no doubt about that^^

Hope you're gonna post at least this much in the future! :D

EDIT:[/b


Hmmm...if I gather some time and patience I might even think of restarting that steampunk BEL-like game here in the near future, or over at PNF...but I'm not sure that a game with such setting would attract many players on a forum such as this (~SF) :P

I'm liking this idea, although I think it'll have to be modified slightly to ensure that people don't just split up to explore and then "warp in". So when someone executes an action that takes them into contact with the enemy, any units within a diameter of x can do do as described, and those outside remain in their last designated position.

I think you need to make that system less static. Why don't you throw some dice each time a player is near enough?
Make them have a 50% chance to actually return, or throw this against a perception stat if that is ever added.

Since I actually have to make  all these dicethrows I'm trying to keep them to a minimum. In order to keep the game alive I need to update close to every day. There's no way I can do that during my work week if I have to rol dozens of extra dice for everything. But I suppose that could be incorporated somehow, depending on how close players are theu can either choose wehre to stand, have a 50% chance of choosing where t ostand, or be stuck where they currently are.

So I need someone who can do some graphics related to BEL.  Dabir is overworked with what he has got on his plate already, but this stuff needs doing. If you're up for it let me know and I'll let you in on a pretty interesting secret. I can't say more in public, it isn't safe.

But seriously. If you have some time to spare and want to work on a SC project, let me know, okay? Otherwise, you'l be kicking yourself in a month or two.

Why would that be bad?

Mostly in situations where the team might decide to split up, leaving different characters in extremely different places. Think of the courtyard in Mission 1. If two of you are at the side door and two at the front, or two of you are in the priest room and two are in the sleeping chamber, I don't want those that are really far away to just "appear" when their buddies open the wrong door.