The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

With the state of the New Alliance, I can't really see it winning the second war even with the Sa-Matra gone:


The Chenjesu, Mmrnmhrm and Earthling fleets were presumably all but destroyed in the first war, with them unable to rebuild the fleets. I mean, slave-shielded worlds are under supervision, right? So where would all the Avatars come from?

The Yehat just had a civil war, and the UQM probably didn't allow them to build a massive fleet.

The Syreen just had a war with the Mycon (with what ships were left from the first war).

The Utwig and Supox were sort of the first phase of the second war, but their fleets were defeated.

The Shofixti were only just "reborn" so they can't possibly have a large fleet yet.

The ZFP wouldn't really help even if they did have a large fleet. :P

I'm not sure if the Pkunk and Orz would actually care to join the war. I mean, unlike the Utwig/Supox, they only gave the Captain a few ships (and ships designs) rather than fight themselves. The Pkunk just had quite a nasty war anyway.


So we have the Arilou, reduced Yehat, remnants of the Syreen/Utwig/Supox, tiny ZFP/Shofixti fleets, and possibly Pkunk/Orz. That doesn't seem to cut it against a huge fleet of Marauders and Dreadnoughts, backed by the VUX and Umgah (who are at full strength IIRC) and what's left of Mycon/Thraddash/Ilwrath.

Here's a thought: the Chmmr didn't know what was going on outside, right? So they might've assumed they had to fight against the UQ Hierarchy all by themselves. That means they had to build an insanely massive fleet of Avatars, without the UQM noticing it. So perhaps they did just that, with scan blocking or something.

And so the second war was won all thanks to Chmmr, with just a little help from their friends.


... or not. :P What do you guys think? (I suppose this has this been discussed before, hasn't it?  :-\)

My guess is that the Alliance victory was heavily contingent on the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah fleets being thrown into chaos after the Sa-Matra's destruction. Perhaps several high ranking officials (ie Lord 1 & and the Primat) were killed in the explosion. They also probably blamed each other and began to fight a total war, as opposed to a war within a predefined set of rules. The resulting destruction gave the Alliance the opening they needed to topple their empire.


Just a guess though.

I agree with you that the Ur-Quan situation seems a lot more bleak than many people might think.

In some respects, its not as bad as you were alluding to. If I recall correctly, didn't the Chmrr give you infinite resources after you freed them from the slave shield? It seems that they were willing and more than ready to hunt the Ur-Quan once they were freed. Also, perhaps these machine beings can quickly process resources.

We know from the end cutscene that Earth had been building ships under the slave shield. Perhaps they had been building Earthling Cruisers for last 20 years? Who knows how hope survives under the slave shield. At the very least, Zelnick could have signalled them from the ship (or Hayes) in 2155, a couple of years before the Battle of the Sa Matra.

Perhaps the explosion of the Utwig bomb wiped out a large portion of the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah fleet in a similar manner as the Shofixti bomb did.

Even if this is true, it is, as you say, a case of devastation among the New Alliance. Perhaps there was also political distruption among the Hierarchy - witness the defection of the Spathi, Yehat, and so on, along with the loss of the Sa Matra and Ur-Quan ships. Perhaps other members of the Hierarchy, such as the Mycon, no longer regard the Ur-Quan as an inevitability. Just when the Ur-Quan need their thralls the most, they are deserting. Perhps they continue their fratricidal war with the Kohr-Ah while they are under attack from all sides.

But it seems as if it would be a long, hard fight. Maybe subduing the Ur-Quan would be part of a sequel, relying on the talents of the Captain.

I always considered the battles after the destruction of the Sa-Matra more of a rout than a war, really. The Chmmr have obviously been stockpiling a massive amount of resources and ships under their slave shield to prepare for their emergence, seeing as how they happily donate and effectively infinite supply of resources to your cause for the final assault. In addition, you have several strong allied fleets to support them: while the Utwig, Supox, ZoqFotPik, Yehat, and Pkunk fleets have been reduced due to their battles during the course of the game, all still have sizable numbers of ships and seem more than willing to put their wweight behind a final push to defeat the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah. The Orz have a powerful fleet basically untouched by war, and seem to be more than happy to help you once you ally with them. The Shofixti probably do not have all that sizable a fleet, but they must have at least a slightly significant quantity of ships; it's not likely that Tanaka would have room to raise an entire species worth of offspring inside his tiny vessel, so they must have found a way to produce ships and make it to the starbase somehow. The Syreen and Human fleets are likely insignificant by comparison to their allies, but would undoubtedly join the battle. The Arilou would probably not be willing to participate in battle in any significant capacity, but may be willing to spare some combat groups, or provide critical backup at convenient and unexpected times.

Compare this with the state of the Hierarchy and the Kohr-Ah. Their trump card has just been obliterated by a surgical strike, and they have simultaneously learned that there are sentient Dnyarri in existence once again. Both the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah are likely in a panic, and may possibly be infighting or desperately trying to protect themselves against psychic compulsion that is no longer a threat. If the Kzer-Za have even thought to attempt to summon their battle thralls, they're likely in for a rude surprise. The majority of them have either been wiped out (Androsynth, Ilwrath, Thraddash), have sealed themselves away from contact (Spathi), or defected to the Alliance already (Yehat). Of the remaining 3 races, they're not likely to get significant backup from any: The Mycon are too pragmatic, and the VUX too self-serving, to attempt to break through the combined Alliance fleet to try to aid their (former) masters. The Umgah might try it as a joke, but are equally likely to defect to the Alliance for humor's sake instead, and even if they did come to the Ur-Quan's aid, they would be easily wiped out by the Alliance rear guard before they could make a difference. The Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah are confused, demoralized, possibly panicking, and definitely surrounded by foes, most of whom are out for some payback.

Let's be honest, the Ur-Quan are pretty much doomed.

Oh, we do? Forgive my ignorance, I assumed the UQM would monitor such developments (which was my case against the Chmmr having a large fleet of Avatars).


As for the Ur-Quan, I don't think they would act erratically as some of you suggested. Let's not forget they're one of the most ancient races around. They're elite. I always assumed they'd join forces against the Alliance. Granted, following the Doctrinal Conflict their fleets are much smaller than what they used to be (especially the losing Kzer-Za), but together they're still the dominant force in the neighborhood. I also don't believe that the Mycon, VUX and Umgah would turn against their Masters just yet.

... unless we assume that the Doctrinal Conflict was very close to an end when the bomb went off, in which case there is almost nothing left of the Kzer-Za fleet. Then the Battle Thralls may well join the Alliance, which would only really have to worry about the Kohr-Ah fleet. Add the (secretly built?) Avatars and Cruisers to the mix and the Alliance wins.  \o/

An interesting question, the answer -I think- should be retrieved by looking at the Old Alliance versus Hierarchy war, which -as many things suggested- was a fairly matched war, the Hierarchy just barely winning, yet overpowering the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm forces when they brought the Sa-Matra in for battle.

Let's look at the old war's sides (active participants), and what they became of at the end of SC2:

ALLIANCE:
    * Humans (slaveshielded, freed at the end)
    * Yehat (split in half due to rebellion)
    * Arilou
    * Syreen (mostly decimated)
    * Shofixti (mostly decimated)
    * Chenjesu (dead -> chmmr)
    * Mmrnmhrm (dead -> chmmr)

HIERARCHY:
    * Mycon (mostly decimated by Syeen forces)
    * Spathi (slaveshielded themselves)
    * Androsynth (dead/vanished)
    * VUX (ZEX dead; not powerful at all anymore (the game suggests that they were as powerful as they were solely due to ZEX))
    * Ilwrath (dead)
    * Umgah

So, even though both sides lost a lot of things, the Kzer-Za got decimated party by the Kohr-Ah, and they lost the Sa-Matra and pretty much all of their battle thralls (Thraddash dead, Umgah might defect to the New Alliance, VUX still loyal but weak, Mycon might defect / become neutral)... The New Alliance has lost a lot of things, too, but they also gained the Orz, Supox, Utwig, Pkunk (blended in with the Yehat) and the all-powerful Chmmr.

Aditionally, the game -at least to me- gave the impression that the Human war factories were rather great, allowing for a large force to be built up in no time at all. Though it is possible that some of these factories were destroyed or dismantled during the Slaveshielded period, the Chmmr 'lots of resources' thing and their new technologies might've made these plants produce cruisers (perhaps even advanced cruisers!) quicker, thus bringing the Earthling forces back in the game. They might've also done this to other New Alliance members (Yehat and Shofixti first due to their proximity to Procyon and their involvement in the Ur-Quan slave war, Supox and Utwig later on).

And again, the Kzer-Za are weak, the Kohr-Ah have also been weakened, and the Sa-Matra that seemingly made the 'final push' against the Old Alliance (read: Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm) is gone now.

Also, don't underestimate the power of the Chmmr Avatar. These ships were made specifically to destroy Dreadnoughts, and they are probably quite good against Marauders, too..

The Ur-Quan clearly had very little presence outside of their sphere. And Earth was extremely poorly monitored. The Spathi all fled, leaving Fwiffo hiding on Pluto. The Ilwrath left in order to hunt down the Pkunk. And the Ur-Quan had not caught any of this over the period of 20 years or so. If Earth was building cruisers, nobody was paying attention.

One wonders about Ur-Quan demoralization
-the Sa-Matra was destroyed in a treacherous sneak attack
-their thralls fail to respond to the call
-some of their thralls have betrayed them
-they had to face another Dynaari
-the Kzer-Za appear to have been wrong in their strategy
-new races, such as the Utwig and the Supox, are attacking them
-the Chejensu and Mrrnhrrmm are back and more powerful than ever before
-it was lowly "inferior" races that did this to them

On the other hand, all this could just make them angrier!

I guess it rests on how many cruisers the humans were able to build on the slave shield, whether the Umgah betray them and join the alliance, if the VUX and Mycon stay out of it, how much forces the Yehat/Pkunk are able to bring to bear, and if the Arilou intercept Ur-Quan communications as suggested in Timewarp. Most importantly, how many cruisers have the Chmrr built, and how quickly are they able to build new ones. There is a possibility that these numbers are impressive. (though don't ask me how they managed to build all these ships before even becoming the Chmrr!)

If the Ur-Quan continued their doctrinal conflict in a confused or haphazard manner, it is possible that small groups of Supox, Utwig, etc... could have isolated pockets of Ur-Quan, picked them off, and moved onto the next group.

There is still a lot of Ur-Quan ships left to destroy, however.

It was pointed out that the Alliance and the Hierarchy were nearly matched in the first war, with the tide turned by the Sa Matra.

So you have to ask yourself, how does it fare this time, with the Ur-Quan weakened, most Hierarchy thralls unavailable, and with most Alliance races weakened.

Then, how does morale, leadership, and organization factor in?

It seems like it could be a bitter conflict. The "feel" you get from the end cutscene and other clues is that the Chmrr provided strong leadership to the New Alliance, that they were very powerful and able to mobilize resources very quickly, that even the humans pitched in and were ready for a fight, and the Alliance races were finally mobilizing to deal with the Ur-Quan.

EDIT: Without ZEX, the VUX would have been pushovers, at least according to the Yehat. So they would likely stay out of the conflict or be rolled over quickly.

But that was just because of the Doctrinal Conflict, wasn't it? Would Earth risk annihilation in case the UQM return? Could they even communicate with the starbase? I really don't remember much of the trivia. :-[


Anyway, here's my new theory of how things happened: the Chmmr must've planned to secretly build a ridiculously huge fleet of Avatars underground, so they'd be able to face the Hierarchy and the Sa-Matra pretty much alone. The process was interrupted prematurely, so perhaps they didn't have a ridiculously huge fleet yet, but it didn't matter: the Sa-Matra was no more and the Kzer-Za were nearly crushed. Following the Chmmr's first offensive, and having learned of the Kzer-Za's imminent defeat, the remaining Battle Thralls quickly decided to become neutral, and that was the end of the Hierarchy.

The only real threat now was the Kohr-Ah fleet, but it too lost much of its past glory. And so, with considerable support from the New Alliance (chiefly the Yehat), the Chmmr were able to destroy the combined Ur-Quan forces once and for all.  \o/


... until they rebuild their armies in some other corner of space. :-\

Yeah, you need a hyperwave caster to communicate through a slave shield, so I guess Earth was not in contact with the Starbase. Hayes mentioned looking up through the red glow of the slave shield. I wonder if they can see the sky and the stars? Perhaps not, though you can see the landmasses from orbit. It could be a two-way mirror effect.

The Doctrinal Conflict certainly kept the Ur-Quan busy and away. Humans would have been at great risk in the long-run had they been building starships. That's why I was so surprised at the end to hear of human starships lifting off. Perhaps TFB are trying to tell us something about the nature of humanity?

You certainly got the impression at the end of the game that a new era had dawned, and the Ur-Quan were on the run at least.

The Pkunk and Orz are not eager to join in? The Orz do not see the loss of an individual *finger* as death, carry on about how fun *dancing* is and give you their ship design for nothing. The Orz probably love war. And the Pkunk? The Pkunk show up at Delta Crateris as reinforcements for a surprise attack on the Sa-Matra before the proper war has even begun.

Actually, the Pkunk obviously are, as a part of the Yehat... :-X

Still not sure about the Orz though. They didn't wage war on the Kohr-Ah like the Utwig/Supox did. And they're not exactly the most predictable race around.

Yeah, I think Zelnick 'forgot' to ask them about that little favour, there being more pressing matters around such as, just as an example, the mysterious and total disappearance of an entire genetic offshoot of humanity. Also  their sphere of influence is tiny as it is, there's not much room for Utwig and Supox-style shrinkage whilst still being able to fit Vulpeculae inside.

If the conversation option had existed to get them to go and kick Kohr-Ah ass, I think they would have gladly gone to war FOREVER. Nemesi are probably extensions of Them just as much as the people inside are, so if they're the aggressors they probably can't actually lose a war as long as They can keep pushing *fingers* through.

Hmm, I'll start with the 1st war. This is mostly guesswork though ;)
And I apologize for the long, long post :-X

Alliance

Chenjesu - technologically quite advanced (I think it was mentioned that theirs was most advanced in Alliance). They didn't have a war fleet before the war, rather probably mostly just scout and mining ships... when the UQ came, they started mass-producing Broodhomes. During the war they probably had the 2nd strongest fleet in the Alliance.

Mmrnmhrm - technology not far behind Chenjesu, in some respects probably even further ahead. Their robotic nature may give them unique benefits (an excellent, intuitive (?) understanding of computers and other machines, ultra-fast reaction time etc.). 3rd strongest fleet in Alliance. Downside - their numbers are limited, and a dead Mmrnmhrm cannot be replaced!

Earthling - started building their fleet late, with relatively primitive technology. Small fleet. According to the game, their greatest contribution is industry. High population means a large workforce, and fast production of war goods/ships. This is especially helpful to the Syreen, who basically have no industry of their own.

Syreen - extremely low population would likely make them very weak... their psionic abilities made them slightly stronger, but still relatively weak. Their contribution is rather limited.

Yehat - the largest and most powerful fleet in the alliance. The only Alliance race who had a large war fleet even before the war. IIRC they were pretty much the only race to conduct successful offensives against the Hierarchy races (especially VUX).

Shofixti - technologically primitive and just starting to build their fleet in the beginning of the war. Their greatest strength are their numbers. Fought alongside the Yehat, making these two more than a match for the VUX and Mycon.

Arilou - technologically highly developed, and possibly very powerful... however, they weren't too willing to help, which made them of limited use.

Hierarchy

Ur-Quan Kzer-Za - they came into this quadrant fully prepared for war, having good technology and a massive fleet dwarfing all the other races. Subjugating the thralls meant they had to fight them, which caused an unknown number of casualties to the UQ themselves. Conquering the Spathi, Ilwrath, Umgah, Thraddash and Mycon was a piece of cake. The strongest fight was put up by the Androsynth, and the VUX may have done some damage. The Ur-Quan soon took a rather large sphere of territory, giving them access to vast mineral wealth.
We also need to take into account the Ur-Quan's experience. They have been fighting other races for 20,000 years, seeing much more combat than any other race... they are the only real war veterans.

Umgah - militarily rather weak originally, and even weaker after fighting the Ur-Quan. They would likely only cause minor damage to Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm forces.

Ilwrath - had no starfleet prior to the war. The technologically most primitive of all races. Contribution same as with Umgah.

Spathi - now they could possibly be a VERY strong addition to the Hierarchy! A large starfleet which surrendered almost immediately to the UQ (which means that the Spathi suffered only a few casualties), technological genius (bronze age -> atomic age in what, 100 or 300 years?!?!) and, if we take Fwiffo seriously, procreational ability rivaling the Shofixti (not in speed, but rather an insane amount of children). Their huge potential is limited by two things:

1. they left Spathiwa, which possibly means they lost access to vast resources and infrastructure. Still, colonizing other worlds may alleviate this problem.
2. they are abject cowards. If the Spathi fleet actually engaged the Alliance, things might look very differently. But, the Spathi had a tendency not to show up in battle, or to flee very quickly.

Androsynth - among the Thralls, they are a powerhouse! So, we have humans with increased health and intelligence. Their technological genius could prove a real help, as well as their organizational skills and discipline (I assume this). They lost their fleet fighting the UQ, but apparently could rebuild quickly enough to become quite formidable. They are based in the Vulpeculae stars, meaning great mineral wealth!
Also, the Androsynth's good understanding of humans could possibly be of help to the Hierarchy. Maybe they can even send spies to the Earthlings, giving them valuable insight into the Alliance's affairs.

VUX - I guess they had a moderate-strength fleet before the war, but it got obliterated by the Ur-Quan when they conquered the VUX. Also, the war had already started by that time, so the VUX were left with very little to defend with against the Yehat. The VUX remnants would have been defeated there and then, but ZEX's genius managed to save the day as he became the main VUX commander. This, as well as possible Ur-Quan and Mycon reinforcements, gave them enough time to rebuild their fleet and push back the Yehat & Shofixti forces.

Mycon - their fleet wasn't overly impressive, but they joined the UQ willingly which meant they didn't suffer any losses from them. The first Mycon offensive may have been aimed to save the VUX's collective ass-equivalents from the Alliance during the first phases of the war.

Thraddash - pretty much insignificant. They didn't fight in the war, but they may have aided the Hierarchy indirectly, with minerals and other supplies.

Short summary:

Alliance:
2 strong races (Chenjesu, Yehat)
3 medium races (Mmrnmhrm, Earthling, Shofixti)
2 weak races (Syreen, Arilou)

+ they mostly fought defensively, meaning the Hierarchy attacked fortified systems. Also, the Alliance's supply lines are shorter (though this might not be too relevant in Hyperspace).
- unprepared for war (except maybe Yehat)

Hierarchy:
1 very strong race (Kzer-Za)
1 strong race (Androsynth)
3 medium races (Spathi, Mycon, VUX)
2 weak races (Ilwrath, Umgah)

+ more territory (greater mineral wealth)
- damage to thrall fleets during their subjugation by the Ur-Quan
- possible low morale/motivation issues (Spathi, Androsynth, Umgah?)


Put this way, it seems to confirm the fact that the Hierarchy had a slight advantage over the Alliance.

Now, let's compare this with the SC2 situation...


Alliance

Chmmr - their racial abilities are unknown...
Apparently they started building a new fleet immediately after being slave-shielded. It seems to me that the new Chmmr fleet is actually stronger than the old Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm fleets put together... also, they have apparently thoroughly mined Procyon II, giving them vast resources. They have the largest and most battle-ready fleet in the New Alliance.

Earthling - they built an unknown (though probably not large) number of cruisers under the slave shield. They are weaker than during the first war, this also depending on the economical impact of the UQ bombardment, slave shield and isolation.

Syreen - same as before (low impact)

Yehat - their fleet had some losses during the Hierarchy war, but thanks to the Queen's surrender they remained relatively low. The civil war is a potentially strong blow, but the Pkunk reunion helps balance this. Therefore, the Yehat would remain relatively strong, though not nearly as much as the Chmmr.

Shofixti - devastated. Their numbers are too low to be of any significant aid.

Arilou - I have no idea. Would they even help? If they would, their contribution would probably remain relatively low.

Orz - again, I have no clear idea. Maybe they would help, maybe not. 'They' still haven't fully come to this dimension, so the Orz may not be particularly strong yet... but there's too little info to tell for sure.

Zoq-Fot-Pik - devastated. They are militarily extremely weak, and their best hope of contribution might be making Alpha Tucanae a base of operations for the Alliance in the Ur-Quan sphere.

Thraddash - devastated, maybe even extinct. In no position to help at all.

Utwig - they had a rather powerful fleet, which has been reduced in their attack on the Kohr-Ah. However, the attack was probably worth it if we consider the Kohr-Ah losses. If the size of the Utwig sphere of influence is any indication, they might still be able to help, though not as much as the Chmmr or Yehat.
The Utwig's high level of technology should also be considered.

Supox - their offensive against the Kohr-Ah left them too weak to continue fighting.

Pkunk - see Yehat.

As you can see, the Alliance is not in good shape (except the Chmmr). But as bad as that seems, the Hierarchy is looking even worse.

Hierarchy

Kzer-Za - a far cry from the pre-war era:
1. their war with the Alliance has caused significant Dreadnought losses. I think mineral depletion at least is not an issue thanks to their vast territory.
2. the Shofixti sacrifice has caused VERY significant Dreadnought losses (30% of the entire fleet!).
3. Finally, in this weakened state they get to fight the Kohr-Ah (who are probably nearly unscathed from their cleansings). Depending on the time of the Sa-Matra's destruction, the Kzer-Za fleet is either weak or (if the Kohr-Ah won the Doctrinal conflict) nearly wiped out. The ZFP reports make it quite clear that the Kzer-Za are in very bad shape.
Conclusion: with the added loss of the Sa-Matra, the Kzer-Za are in no shape to fight the Alliance... possibly even without the Chmmr.

Umgah - stronger than during the first war, but their generally pathetic ship design makes them a likely pushover. There's also the possibility they'll defect if they see the Kzer-Za are about to lose.

Ilwrath - devastated, thanks to the Thraddash. If they're still alive they probably can't even wipe out the ZFP.

Spathi - slave-shielded. Not much use :P

Androsynth - GONE. There goes the 2nd strongest (or at least most capable) Hierarchy race. Bummer.

VUX - stronger than during the first war. These guys could actually help out the Kzer-Za... except that ZEX isn't around to pull it off successfully. If the VUX don't have someone around with actual knowledge of warfare, they're likely doomed.

Mycon - the Syreen got them good. Too good. They don't seem to be in much of a shape to stop a Yehat/Pkunk incursion. And if the Mycon see that the Kzer-Za are weak, they may abandon them or even try to defect into the Alliance (the new "Un-Voidable Non")

Kohr-Ah - not exactly a part of the Hierarchy... but they are the only race that can actually put up a decent fight against Chmmr & co. They aren't in good shape however:
1.before they came to this quadrant, they annihilated the Burvixese and the Gg. The Burvix supposedly didn't like flying, so they probably didn't have much of a fleet. The Gg, however, are a mystery... they may have inflicted at least minor casualties against the Kohr-Ah.
2. Doctrinal war. The Kzer-Za, even in their weakened state, probably caused a LOT of damage to the Kohr-Ah fleet.
3. Utwig & Supox offensive. They delayed the Death March for a year, implying at least moderate damage to the Kohr-Ah.

Also, there's no telling how the Sa-Matra's destruction and the Neo-Dnyarri's appearance affected both of the Ur-Quan subspecies psychologically.

Short summary:

Alliance:
1 very strong race (Chmmr)
1 strong race (Yehat/Pkunk)
2 moderate races (Utwig, Orz?)
5 weak races (Earthling, Syreen, Supox, Zoq-Fot-Pik, Arilou?)

+ high morale?
+ Melnorme technology!
- many races are too weak to attack the Hierarchy

Hierarchy: ( + Kohr-Ah)
1 strong race (Kohr-Ah)
2 moderate races (Kzer-Za, VUX)
2 weak races (Mycon, Umgah?)

+ they still control a significant amount of territory
- psychological impact of the Sa-Matra's destruction & Neo-Dnyarri -> this might prove to be positive if the Kohr-Ah decide to ally with the Hierarchy
- major damage done to most Hierarchy races


The balance of power has changed... in favor of the Alliance.


Whew, that took long! :o
That's my take on it... so it may easily be inaccurate ;D

"How does the New Alliance win the war?"

Play the sequel and find out!  ;D

I agree there's a problem with a vision of the new alliance owning the Ur-Quan in a few short weeks--namely we don't really know the size of the Ur-Quan fleet, post-Sa-Matra destruction. We don't know if they're allied with the Kohr-Ah, if they're in a civil war or what. I agree it would not necessarily be easy to tackle them. I think the creators were going for a neatly wrapped up happy ending at the end of SC2, and I imagine not thinking too expectantly of a sequel.

I think too many of you are making assumptions that aren't necessarily valid about what *must* happen, and are instead using your own imaginations to imagine an outcome. E.g. the decisions about what Earthlings would do about building cruisers under the shield or not is based on what kind of society they would have following the slave shielding, which is dependent on PR3&FF to decide pretty much. We also don't know in detail how Vux society operates. We don't know what their reasons might be for going one way or another. They might have an upper class that wants to retain power, or they might fear total annihilation by the Ur-Quan. Again, this is dependent on the size of the Ur-Quan fleet after the Sa-Matra's destruction which is unknown and can only be resolved by an authorial decision on the matter.

Other factors, such as the Arilou's participation are unknown, because their general desire for humanity is unknown, which was the reason they joined the first war and probably would be a large concern in the second.
As for the Orz, they seem happy to join the alliance but their ultimate ambitions are unknown.

What happened to the Ur-Quan and the Ur-Quan's reaction cannot be surely determined from the evidence here. And I think it's reasonable to say that, like a lot of details in SC2, the game doesn't make total sense and can't be reliably drawn upon for inference in a lot of situations. Is it even conceivable that there was a quick Hierarchy defeat? It depends on too many factors that ultimately the authors will have to resolve.

Well, we're just speculating. It's not what must happen, but what might happen given what we know about the game universe. Look at the words SuddenDeath used in the first and last lines of his impressive post.

The Chmmr building a massive fleet under the slave-shield seems pretty necessary for an Alliance win though.

I agree that we need TfB to tell us what really happened, but I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever see that day. :-\

I don't believe that after the destruction of the Sa-Matra and the "rebirth" of the Dnyarri, there would be any instant war epilogue following the Hierarchy - Empire of Zelnick conflict (at least for the Kzer-Za). Seeing how the tides of war have changed, but not in their favor, it's much more likely to assume that the UQ (as veteran warriors and tacticians they are) would instantly warp the hell out from this quadrant some 1000 parsecs coreward to the space that they already conquered...then they would lick their wounds in some distant solar systems orbiting around the forgotten moons of lost and devastated worlds hidden in the vast asteroid fields escaping from the hungry eyes and tentacles of various space beasts and star dragons...after some time, when they've rebuild their power a bit, they would probably send a hyperspace call to the battle thralls left in those regions of space, a call they must answer...and answer it they will; after many years (decades?) in which they were hanging still and silent from their Dreadnaught ceilings, plotting and waiting in the shadows of the dark suns, waiting for the right time to come, a decision will be made...and their now vast and combined battle thrall fleet would issue an order to return to the space they were so easily repelled from and finish what they started so long ago...This epilogue would be similar to what happened to the Kohr-Ar after the first doctrinal war, but how the story would go from there it is impossible to tell. What would happen to Kohr-Ar themselves, I cannot speculate  :P being more warlike than the Kzer-za, they would probably fight until the last of their Marauders was disintegrated to stardust by all powerful terrawatt lasers. Then the remnants of their race would be either slaveshielded (after appropriate trial by the Empire of course) on some remote planet and safeguarded by Chmmr Avatar contigent or the Empire wouldn't bother at all and slaughtered the bastards for their crimes against life...or not? As for the Empire, with the absence of an immediate threat it would probably just rebuild and after some time prosper. It is safe to assume that as the time passes they would lower their guard feeling that there is no one left to challenge their joined supremacy...in that way making an excellent prelude for SCIII  ;D Unless a conflict between the allies erupts before the UQ return of course. God knows what would happen then  :P my 2 cents  8)

A few points I'd like to add to this excellent topic

Human starships

While the ending credits do mention ships rising from Earth, was there actually any mention of them being warships/cruisers? I can't remember if there was an actual image of cruisers but I don't think so. It would probably be easier for humanity to construct some simple transports, and they might even be permitted this since the Starbase apparently gets its crew exchanged now and then. It might be found more efficient for the Kzer-Za to let the humans fly their own recurits up rather than to go down and transport them up. Those transports would probably have a fairly small travel capacity. In addition, the Commander mentions something about one of the crewmembers hiding the crusier blueprints after they were thought destroyed which would imply that  Earth can't construct cruisers. I suppose someone on Earth could've done the same though.

Chmmr fleet

There are quite a few threads on what the Chmmr were going to look like floating around in the archives. It's stated in-game that the process isn't complete, so obviously what we see isn't the final form. This is also evidenced by the fact that the Chmmr knew about the Sa-Matra and were going to counter it, but their ships are pretty worthless against it. The theories tend to range from much better Avatars (with more ZapSats, longer lasers and so forth) to converting the entire planet to a large battlestation (and possibly a singular hivemind) that would dominate the Ur-Quan. Personally I think the latter (without the hivemind) coupled with Avatar producing facilities makes sense. That'd give you a large baseship and smaller fighters where it can't be used. If that was the case, then maybe the Chmmr had only gotten as far as constructing the support ship factories but not far enough to have converted the entire planet. Seeing as their entire planet seems to be crystal, it might be easier to hide things under the surface there than on Earth.

Possible Kzer-Za Battle Thralls

There's been a lot of discussion about this in the past. One of the points brought forth is that if there are other Battle Thralls, there must be Kzer-Za left behind to guard them. Look at what happened in our sector, in just a few years discipline broke. If this is the case, then the Kzer-Za can probably call up a lot of reinforcements. This seems counterintuitive though, surely all Kzer-Za would have joined the Doctrinal Conflict? Another possible explanation would be that the Kzer-Za slave shield their Thralls before leaving a Quadrant. We don't know how the Thrall contract looks, it might be a temporary state. This could be supported by the fact that the Kzer-Za don't seem to have brought any "foreign" Thralls to our sector. In this case they've got no reinforcements coming.

Just watched the end sequence again. It says both Ur-Quan were defeated by the Chmmr and allied forces in "more than three weeks" (at most), and only then was Earth freed (a detail I'd forgotten :-[). So whether Earth built Cruisers or not is irrelevant to this discussion really... And indeed, it didn't say the ships were Cruisers or show any of them.

Anyway, destroying both UQ fleets in only three weeks means the Chmmr must've had an insanely huge fleet hidden in there already.


Seeing as the Battle Thralls in our region of space were able to do pretty much whatever nonsense they wanted, it's possible that the Kzer-Za simply left all Battle Thralls everywhere unattended, planning to get back to them after dealing with their brethern, the true threat.

Yay! My memory works.


Yeah, didn't remember that. Sounds like some amazing production facilities combined with disarray in the Ur-Quan ranks.


It seems terribly inefficient and stupid to go to the trouble of conquering loads of races and retrofiting their ships with more advanced technology, only to leave them unsupervised, armed, able to contact each other and knowing that you are out there. It's liek arming your enemies and telling them "We'll be back in a thousand years, remember to behave and not stage any coups or build up any giant armies"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uofLSzn8o84 at around 2:50

The "Chmmr battle-planet" idea seems terribly inefficient, too: it'd take a lot of energy to move the damned thing, and even then the Kzer-Za could just ignore the battleplanet and go somewhere else. A plethora of Sa-Matra sized battleships would be much, much more efficient.

I've never seen any of the 3D0 movies before, and that one lends a particularly interesting spin on things. At the very least, it does with the volume off...

It looks like the Cruisers sent up from the surface had no intention of making contact with anyone, but were instead "blockade runners," a do-or-die attempt to send ships up from the surface in every direction and into hyperspace as soon as the shield was dropped. Presumably they were sent to try to slip past the Hierarchy and found new colonies wherever they could, in order to contact the Alliance once more and resist the Ur-Quan in whatever capacity they could. Considering the Ur-Quan's likely response to this (not only destroying the escaping ships, but exacting punishment on those still on Earth), it's a pretty ballsy move.

So clearly Earth had the capacity to create and launch Cruisers even while they were slave shielded. We don't see a very large number of ships being launched, and there is no reason to presume they held any back on the surface, though this could be because the scene cuts away quickly. So the actual size of this fleet is questionable.

Cool. Never saw those since I played the PC version.


Well, assuming it can move as fast as the Sa-Matra it'd neutralize that threat, and if it can produce Avatars those can probably mop up any of the Ur-Quan they were designed to fight. Maybe after destroying the Sa-Matra it'll spend it times eating other planets and spewing forth more Avatars?


Another option might be that they expected the Chenjesu to crack the shield during intense combat. Maybe the Ur-Quan just open a small hole somewhere rather than shutting the whole shield down? They did get a message telling them to stay put until the Chenjesu and M:bots could come free them, didn't they?

A thousand years? :o *checks the Ultronomicon*... Wait, it took 20,000 years to roam half the galaxy? Then SC2's region of space definitely isn't 1/20 of the galaxy, as someone estimated the other day (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=4426.0). More like 1/10,000, with very optimistic assumptions for the Drake equation. In that case, my suggestion does seem a bit silly.


Oh, there's a 3DO version. Right. Of course.

Well, it looks like the Cruiser is just there for the drama effect. :P It could be leftover from the first war or something.

Eek! That doesn't make much sense - hell, it would more likely take them 3 weeks just to reach the Ur-Quan SoI! There's no way they could have cleaned the whole Ur-Quan sphere of influence in just a few days... unless it was the actual fighting that took 3 weeks, and even that idea seems a stretch.

I'll expand on that idea:
Perhaps the Chmmr spread out their fleet in a wide formation along the Ur-Quan west and southwest borders of the Ur-Quan SoI, while the Vindicator (and its escorts) went in alone in order not to alarm the UQ. As soon as the Chmmr fleet heard what happened at Crateris (hyperwave signal?), they charged in. The Yehat/Pkunk could join in from the south, and the Utwig from the northeast. If there were no long battles, the Allies could quickly trample their way to the other end of the Ur-Quan sphere... with the UQ either surrendering or fleeing. If the Ur-Quan actually had fortified any systems, that might have slowed down the Allies' march.

Hmm, even without major drags it seems unlikely to me that 3 weeks would be enough ???


Keep in mind that the UQ may have faced many wars... that would have slowed them down, though I'm not sure by how much.

I figured that the Ur-Quan were busy engaging in or recovering from self-mutilation, which tends to be distracting; and their fleets were not oriented correctly for battle -- the Chmmr would basically execute a full strategic flanking maneuver.

There is one nitpick on the plausibility, which is that I believe three weeks is not even long enough for the Ur-Quan to cross their own sphere of influence! Unless the Chmmr Avatar, like the precursor tug, has much better hyperspace speed than its battle speed, how could they even get there?

That of course suggests that the Avatar does indeed have superior hyperspace speed, which is a strategic advantage which it is clear can be turned into decisive tactical advantage.

Sure, the Avatar may be evenly matched with one Marauder or Dreadnought; but give them local numerical superiority of, say, four to one, and the casualties either flavor of Ur-Quan will be able to inflict is quite limited. The Chmmr could pick apart battle groups and feed them one by one into laser shredders, sometimes cycling out the occasional ship for repairs, and keep doing it as long as it needed to be done.

Oh, and one more thing: Delta Crateris was packed full of ships of both UQ subraces. The Sa-Matra's explosion caused a huge blast that even swept the relatively far-away escape pod with a semi-dangerous dose of radiation, right?
Can the explosion perhaps be of a scale nearing Delta Gorno? If so, then the Ur-Quan are looking at some very massive losses (on the scale of Delta Gorno? ;)).

If the Chmmr had a significant advantage in fleet size, and spread out their fleet so it would start a blitzkrieg the moment Zelnick's mission is completed, then it might be remotely possible that the bulk of the UQ forces were faced in battles within three weeks, even without extra hyperspace speed... or not? Someone find out how long it takes to travel the radius of UQ's SoI on Avatar speed. :P

In-combat and out-of-combat speeds may be correlated, but are not the same. A max speed Vindicator is the fastest ship out of combat, but gets run down easily by several ships in combat.

The Vindicator travels 20 hyperspace distance units per day at max speed (128). The Ur-Quan sphere of influence is 500 such units wide. In two weeks at Vindicator speeds, you can thus cross almost all of Ur-Quan space. Dreadnoughts and Marauders are much slower than the Vindicator. The source code may or may not have a value for the Avatar.

Wow, wouldn't it be a great idea for the sequel if, after the Sa-Matra's destruction, the Kzer-Za retreat to a far away sector of the galaxy where their original thralls are. The Kohr-Ah join the new alliance against the Kzer-Za in a new game with 14 new races of early battle thralls. Of course, why they left them behind might be a good question... maybe the supply lines from far away star systems makes it not worth it to have species be too far from their original sphere of influence. Only the Ur-Quan and its (supposedly existing) huge mobile fleet of factory and refinery ships move on from sector to sector, subduing every race in their path, with the help of nearby aliens who are also subjugated. (Heh, kind of typical colonial behaviour).

- On Chmmr:
Everything they would do under the slave shield would in theory have to be in total secrecy, since the Ur-Quan probably aren't dumb enough to leave them unsuperised. Unless they considered the Ilwrath to be suitable guards. Still, one would expect that inspections and regular crew changes would be in order, so changing your planet into a giant mega-mind would probably arouse the attention of your slave masters due to all the required intense industrial activity.


BTW, what is the policy about posting SC3-(actual) ideas on the board? Should we not post our ideas in case FF and PR3 use similar ideas and someone gets uppity and claims they ripped their idea off? I don't mind posing "disclaimer: the creators can use this idea as they see fit". Has anyone posted on this?

They abandoned their starbase...

It’s an interesting thing. During the development of my mod plot I’ve been surprised on several occasions when some one comes up with a neat idea that I’ve already thought independently. It seems that those of us who know the game deeply can envisage natural plot progressions.

I don’t doubt that with all the theorising done about Star Control over the last 15 years most conceivable sequel ideas have already been covered.  I think it would be a tough ask for PR3 to come up with stuff that noone else has.

I just hope that he doesn’t read our stuff so he can write a new sequel without influenced by amateurs like us.

Yes, which to me would seemingly attract the attention of the Ur-Quan. I don't see how converting a starbase to full automation would be easy or without hiccups that the Ilwrath or some other race wouldn't complain about. 

Aren't the two speed values linearly correlated for all ships but the Vindicator, including the techy Ur-Quan, Melnorme and Utwig? I'm inclined to attribute the difference to the super-duper Precursor technology, which no other race can achieve.


So if we assume the UQ are really outnumbered, the Chmmr fleet might get to the SoI center in just over two weeks, with Avatar groups engaging the UQ on the way while the rest continue the trip (blitzkrieg!). Add another week of uneven battles and it's remotely plausible that the UQ clearly come out as losers when Zelnick wakes up.

... or maybe the whole "I woke up after three weeks to find out that the good guys have won" was just for drama effect. :P


I can't imagine the Kohr-Ah joining forces with anyone but the Kzer-Za...

I suppose if the Ur-Quan were charging to the battle as well, that would help speed things up. It's not like they'd just sit there.

As for battle progress: massed Avatars probably would shred massed dreadnoughts effortlessly. I am not so sure about the marauders, though. A well-timed FRIED as they got sucked in would be a mess.

If we add in a few terminators, things even out considerably. They can soak up FRIED all day as long as they're not relied upon to provide offense. I'm not sure of the best formations to shred marauders using terminators, but I think some very efficient ones could be devised, in which the Kohr-Ah captain is essentially powerless.

I seem to remember that the PC end sequence states that after the destruction of the Sa-Matra, the Ur-Quan went into chaos. I assumed that this meant that with the destruction of the Sa-Matra, the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah panicked and order disintegrated. If this happened, the allied forces would easily be able to defeat all the remaining combat ships rather quickly. I think when TFB chose to make the time a few weeks, they simply didn't think to take into account travel time.

I agree 100%

Chaos comes in degrees. A degree of chaos that would make Kohr-Ah provide token resistance... I just don't see it. They had always done without the Sa-Matra anyway, and this event proved their philosophy closer to right, and it was they who had the stronger remaining fleet, and they whose ship is better suited to taking out the Avatar.

I can. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's possible that the Ur-Quan, upon the destruction of their Sa-Matra and their subsequent rout from that area of space, would choose to go back where they came from and might not want the Kohr-Ah to follow. It's also quite likely in my opinion that some sort of social upheaval would happen in at least one of the Ur-Quan races following the Sa-Matra's destruction. This might lead to a change in philosophy, priorities and (depending on the power circumstances at the time), allegiances.

I don't know, there seems to be a problem with this type of thinking in the SC2 universe, even though it's the most rational.
So evaluating what happens in ship-to-ship combat usually doesn't come out right for one side.

My point is that if a fleet of Avatars were to attack a fleet of Marauders in the seqeuence of the game,  they'd probably come out on top no matter what online players are capable of doing.

Chaos in the Kohr-Ah's ranks comes not from the destruction of the Sa-Matra, but that their fleet simply drifted away during the attack for no apparent reason, save a feeling of mental compulsion deeply associated with terror in the deepest parts of their psyche. The perceived reemergence of their ancient, supposedly vanquished enslavers is at least equal, if not more, traumatic to both subspecies than the loss of the physical symbol of "rightness" in the Doctrinal Conflict. After all, as you say, the Kohr-Ah have been bereft of the Sa-Matra for millennia, though they might be upset at having it snatched from their grasp just before their victory. But both Ur-Quan would certainly enter a frenzied scramble for Excruciators, and possibly genocide against the talking pets, after being compelled by foes that they know should have no right to exist.

A panicked and distracted enemy, even one as powerful as the combined Ur-Quan fleets, would fall easily before a coordinated assault by the New Alliance.

He wasn't exactly evaluating things from a PvP POV. I mean, the Avatar is not a very smart choice against Dreadnoughts in melee, yet in the game universe it's supposed to be the very best counter. And as it was not built with the Kohr-Ah in mind, it's logical to theorize that it's not as effective against Marauders.

Expanding on what Draxas said ,  killing the talking pets (and I totally agree it's the first thing both Ur-Quans would do after being compelled to leave Crateris) will render the Kzer-Za mostly unable to communicate with their thralls, making wictory for the New Alliance easier .

I seem to recall that the Ur-Quan have the ability to translate without talking pets, they just find the task "ultimately demeaning" and don't want to speak directly with lower life forms.

I've "discovered" an excellent thread with a similar topic from over 5 years ago... a wealth of opinions there!
http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=1266.0

Wow, one of the old injection threads...

What about the Ur-Quan's will to fight? We know that there is only 1 UQ per ship, and the rest are thralls. By now, these thralls are probably made up of Hierarchy races from the game area (they might have been the thralls from previous sectors of the galaxy when the UQ first arrived). The prevalence of expendable crew aboard UQ dreadnoughts suggests two things:

1. UQ don't like to die. And after the demoralizing events at the end of SC2, perhaps they don't see a need to charge headlong into a reinvigorated Alliance. The NAFS, on the other hand, are fighting for their freedom and very survival. UQ have a place to withdraw to (the Magellanic Clouds according to the 3D0 SC2)

2. The hierarchy races aboard the Dreadnoughts might have become aware of the turmoil among the Ur-Quan after the reintroduction of the Dynarri and the destruction of the Sa-Matra. There may have been difficulty in communicating after the UQ exterminated all their Dynarri. The slave races might have then realized that UQ control was collapsing. What if they learned about the Spathi leaving, the Thraddash being attacked by the Ilwrwath, the damage to the Mycon, etc... They might have wanted to go and defend their homes, or at least no longer die for the UQ, knowing their homeworlds were no longer under UQ compulsion.

When Zelnick spoke about disarray among the UQ, he might have even meant within UQ ships, not just among the UQ factions (including possible factions outside the sector.)

You guys forgot one important thing:

Remember how your flagship was able to, by the end of the game, with all the upgrades, pretty much walk all over the place unopposed ALONE?  They have a Precursor starship at their disposal.

... oh right, that thing got blown to pieces near the end.

... but remember

The New Alliance has a Precursor factory on Vela!!

The Chmmr managed to crack the slave shield.  They would apply the same technique to crack the slave shield around Earth's and VELA'S SLAVE SHIELD.  Now all it takes to for somebody (ie, the Chmmr or others) to guard that place long enough for a couple of Vindicators to be produced, crewed, and they can start kicking alian butts.

Well , the most important part of the ship - it's computer was dismantled from Vela's facility and later blown to pieces . There is no way of constructing new ships there anymore . In addition , the Ur-Quans recognized the Vindicator right away , it's not unlikely they have a couple of those themselves .

uh, where did you get that from?  i don't remember the computer being dismantled from Vela's facility and blown to pieces.  in fact, i don't recall any mention of the said computer at Vela.

It was used for the Vindicator.

I believe it's in the backstory in the SC2 manual.

I just read through the entire thread...

The Pkunk would – they've merged with the Yehat.

Normally they would have, but they were kind of busy with their Doctrinal Conflict. ;)

I consider this unlikely, since non-Orz can also fly inside a Nemesis.

A message was sent, yes, but I thought they never received it.

Well, you'd have to consider that the Captian had just defeated the Ur-Quan left in that system; the others had left the area. So I doubt there'd be losses as significant as Delta Gorno.