The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Son_of_Antares on July 06, 2009, 11:28:08 am



Title: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Son_of_Antares on July 06, 2009, 11:28:08 am
A random question that came to be in my mind after I found this page (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/main.php?id=sceut) and related pic (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/sce/ur-quan2.jpg) about one of arne's concept plans for his SC remake (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/main.php?id=sce) (followed by scores of awesome art of course).

So - what happened to the original, "brown" Ur-Quan? ???

The Ultronomicon states that
Quote
The brown exterior of the Ur-Quan originally disappeared in these genetic alterations, leaving the administrative Ur-Quan with a green skin, and the workers with a black skin.

But that's quite inconsistent with the original Star Control game Slave War, because the main antagonists there are the "brownies"...

The questions that intrigue me even more are:

Is it possible that some of them survived the Dnyarri genetic alteration process? That some of them actually were able to fled into the *pretty space* after the Taalo and join with their only friends in their mutual exile (as arne suggests)? And that these Ur-Quan influenced by their silicon-based friends never developed any sort of "ultra-genocidal"/"enslave all" behavior? That there may be such thing as...almost tolerant Ur-Quan (no matter how contradictory or exotic that sounds)?

Is all this plausible at all within the ranges of the game cannon? Sure would make for some interesting plot twists and (possible) game mods if it was...


p.s.- @arne: I hope you don't mind I used your project pages as reference material. Great Taalo concept there, really liked it :)


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Death 999 on July 06, 2009, 04:28:18 pm
What do you mean the brownies were the main antagonists of SC1? Green all the way.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: spinsane on July 06, 2009, 05:19:33 pm
I think it's pretty non-canonical to suggest there are still brown ur-quan out there, especially WITH the Taalo. The Taalo would've had to break the Dnyarri connection with the Ur-Quan. The Taalo shield isn't that strong and the Ur-Quan are very susceptible, I think they'd've gotten blasted before they'd've had a chance to use it effectively. There are possibilities that there were scout-quans that never got hit by Dnyarri, but they are all single-manned vessels, not enough to reproduce or maintain the true Ur-Quan bloodlines (plus Ur-Quan don't live THAT long).


Quote
Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth, but they are so *silly*, they do not want.
Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course.

Here is *good news*!
Six or nine *pieces* ago, myself the Orz did not even *smell* your *level*.
Can you believe? It is so silly! It is such a *happy town*.
Then the Androsynth made some *slippery places* and then Orz can *smell* it.
It *smells* so good Orz are surprised!
I, myself pushed the *fingers* into the *new town* and there are so many *campers*.
First the VUX, but they are such *silly cows*
they ask so much about the Androsynth we must *dance* with them.
Then we can *smell* the Arilou. Again they are *jumping in front*.
It is always! Nnnnggaaahhhhh!
There is *juice squeezing* and then we are not so *frumple*.
Finally we find you, the *happy campers* and the Taalo *playground* for sliding through.
Where are the Taalo? There they are. It is too much fun.
We are too happy, in this *slow time* *heavy space*. It is a better *level* for games.
This is the everything story. Now you know.

This answer is not for *Silly Cows*.
You do not know Taalo. Taalo are not the *friends*.
You are coming to the *playground* and then making words.
Always you make Orz *squeezing juice*. We do not have enough.
I do not want to *smell* you now.

I will tell. This is Taalo *playground*. Do you know?
Taalo is not anymore the *heavy space*. Many *camper* lives they are not here.
To *play* with Taalo, Orz must *spread* into *Pretty Space*.
There are so many good places for this here, Orz are happy.
Of course you do not know Taalo. You are *Campers*.
You cannot going to *Pretty Space*, too bad.

Yes. Yes. You say words, then I say.
It is fun *in between*. More fun than *dancing*.
Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*.
This is why we like the *New Town*. So many *Campers* and then what?
Even the *playgrounds*! Such a surprise!
At this *playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*. It is too funny for the Orz.
Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?
They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.
Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.
Then we can have a *party*. They are even better *campers* than you.
Do not feeling bad. You are good enough *campers*, but not yet.

The Orz provide a good bit of information regarding other species that they've encountered. They mention nothing of the Ur-Quan or the Taalo being with the Ur-Quan. I think it is too far fetched to say that the Taalo were able to bring any Ur-Quan with them. The shield would've had to been brought close to an Ur-Quan that would've been trying to kill them. It's in the realm of possibility, but the Orz don't mention them with the Taalo.



Quote
The Ur-Quan?! The long brownish guys from the Milieu with all the eyes and arms?
They used to come visit us regularly about three Drahns ago.
They told us about all the interesting things they found from their scouting missions.
They were really nice! Why do you fight with them?

But the Ur-Quan were such good guys!
They had lots of interesting things to tell us about
and they never got impatient with our questions.
Hmmm. Well, I guess a lot can happen to a species in three Drahn
like turning green and evil.

Antagonists? Not really.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Elerium on July 06, 2009, 08:04:58 pm
Quote
Is it possible that some of them survived the Dnyarri genetic alteration process? That some of them actually were able to fled into the *pretty space* after the Taalo and join with their only friends in their mutual exile (as arne suggests)? And that these Ur-Quan influenced by their silicon-based friends never developed any sort of "ultra-genocidal"/"enslave all" behavior? That there may be such thing as...almost tolerant Ur-Quan (no matter how contradictory or exotic that sounds)?
The Brown Ur-Quan were dominated by the Dynarri- they couldn't have fled with them for the whole race was psionically compelled to kill the Taalo, which they did. The Taalo fled, and are now housed with the Orz in some way.

The ultra-genocidal/enslave all behavior came out of the aftermath of the slaved Ur-Quan-Dynarri war. Before that they were just voracious predators, which the Dynarri "tweaked" genetically for they made the superior slave lifeform in the galaxy. They made them more fallow to obey, and split the genome into two, Green- thinkers, scientists and Black, laborers and soldiers. After having to torture themselves constantly until every last Dynarri fleet was crushed and every last of their species was eradicated/turned into "talking pets" this basically drove them completely insane enough that they feared their species would fall under the same enslaved influence. Due to their torture, their reasoning was extreme- Blacks chose to eradicate all aliens to prevent the problem should their species demise, and the Greens wanted to enslave harshly, yet to them benevolently to prevent their own species demise.

Quote
So - what happened to the original, "brown" Ur-Quan? Huh

They were dominated by the Dynarri to genocide "unworthy" races to the Dynarri and act as their personal servants and labor force, eventually erased through them becoming Green/Black Ur-Quan subspecies as the original Brown died off.

Quote
But that's quite inconsistent with the original Star Control game, because the main antagonists there are the "brownies"...

SC1 was instigated by the Kzer-Za Ur-Quan (Green) rousing a massive warcry after completing their warfleets and solidifying enough thralls (like the Androsynth) to conquer the other part of the galaxy where the Alliance of Free Stars was, which the Alliance lost.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Son_of_Antares on July 07, 2009, 12:02:10 pm
What do you mean the brownies were the main antagonists of SC1? Green all the way.

Sorry I permuted while posting - I was thinking about Slave War, not the events of SC1; sorry for the confusion :-\

Antagonists? Not really.

After they were mind-controlled they do became the main antagonists; event of which Slylandro had no clue because they were quite limited when it comes to acquiring new information about current galactic occurrences. A lot can happen in 3 drahn indeed.


Tnx elerium for that great sc lore post there, but my point is still this:

the original Ur-Quan are depicted as one of the most advanced and most powerful races within the Milieu. Furthermore due to their territorial nature they were used primarily as scouts, to explore and make contact with new races (and offer them membership within the Milieu). So it's reasonable to assume that a big portion of the Ur-Quan population was out "on the field"  when the Dynnari took over (and that can't be some trivial number; they are some extraterrestrial form of space alien caterpillars, but even so they are still insects; and insects know how to multiply).

Now, with all this said, how the Dnyarri succeeded in reaching them all? They were sent to scout the Galaxy, and that surely doesn't mean that they'll all be home by supper time. Some groups of explorers could get derailed during the course of their mission (for whatever reason), meaning that they could possibly return decades after the Slave Empire was established. When they would close in to the nearest Milieu colonies, scan/hail them and find out that something has gone horribly wrong, I bet that they would take at least some level of heightened precaution/security measures. And although I do believe that the Dnyarri would surely mind-control most of these scouts, a number of them could escape their "mental trap".

In face of a threat of such magnitude they would sure as hell flee as fast as they can instead of standing their ground and turning into drones. Those few remaining survivors could  contact each other, join together and hide, remaining hidden until the threat was over. And the best place to hide is among friends - and their only friends they had were the Taloo. And when those little guys fled before the coming oblivion, the brownies would no doubt tag along...

This sounds plausible doesn't it? :D

That's why I like the idea - it could fit in the main story/canon with no problems whatsoever. And I sure would like to see them in some future game mod, they could make for some really interesting story arcs.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Draxas on July 07, 2009, 04:34:43 pm
the original Ur-Quan are depicted as one of the most advanced and most powerful races within the Milieu.

Nope! They were actually the last to join, and had the least advanced technology. While I'm sure they spent a good long time getting upgrades from their allies, they were never the most advanced race in the Milieu.

Quote
Furthermore due to their territorial nature they were used primarily as scouts, to explore and make contact with new races (and offer them membership within the Milieu).

Funny how no other races ever joined, then. In fact, the only races we can be sure they even found were the Slylandro and Dnyarri.

Quote
So it's reasonable to assume that a big portion of the Ur-Quan population was out "on the field"  when the Dynnari took over (and that can't be some trivial number; they are some extraterrestrial form of space alien caterpillars, but even so they are still insects; and insects know how to multiply).

Fair enough, but we're not talking about the majority of the Ur-Quan by a long shot. Maybe 5-10% of their population, tops; space exploration requires a lot of manpower on the ground for every ship sent up to space.

Quote
Now, with all this said, how the Dnyarri succeeded in reaching them all? They were sent to scout the Galaxy, and that surely doesn't mean that they'll all be home by supper time. Some groups of explorers could get derailed during the course of their mission (for whatever reason), meaning that they could possibly return decades after the Slave Empire was established. When they would close in to the nearest Milieu colonies, scan/hail them and find out that something has gone horribly wrong, I bet that they would take at least some level of heightened precaution/security measures. And although I do believe that the Dnyarri would surely mind-control most of these scouts, a number of them could escape their "mental trap".

The Dnyarri spread themselves across all Milieu worlds very rapidly, conquering the minds of the residents as they went, which means that any long-range scouts first arriving home would likely get inducted into the fold before they even reach communications distance. This goes double if their destination is a primarily Ur-Quan world (quite likely, considering).

Quote
In face of a threat of such magnitude they would sure as hell flee as fast as they can instead of standing their ground and turning into drones.

One wonders if that would be the case. Discovering that an unknown alien species has conquered your race and its allies could generate some extremely irrational territorial behavior in a species not particularly well known for rational thought. Grouping for an attack rather than fleeing seems to fit the Ur-Quan mental profile a bit better.

Quote
Those few remaining survivors could  contact each other, join together and hide, remaining hidden until the threat was over. And the best place to hide is among friends - and their only friends they had were the Taloo. And when those little guys fled before the coming oblivion, the brownies would no doubt tag along...

When have you ever known an Ur-Quan to hide from anything?

How would they even know the invasion was coming? By the time they realized the fleet was on its way, any Ur-Quan that were hiding out with the Taalo would be in mind control range. Even if they did escape, their numbers would probably be insufficient to revitalize their species, considering that even finding a mate without killing them seems to be a serious challenge for the Ur-Quan.

By all accounts, it seems like the Taalo only escaped into *Pretty Space* by the skin of their teeth. The Ur-Quan certainly thought they exterminated the race, and presumably they would have a general idea how large the population was. If the exterminated Taalo only seemed to be a fraction of what was expected, they might have been more aware that an escape took place.

Incidentally, the language the Orz use when discussing the Taalo is a bit on the creepy side (as usual). This excerpt is a bit disturbing when looked at a certain way:

Quote
At this *playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*. It is too funny for the Orz.
Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?
They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.
Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.
Then we can have a *party*. They are even better *campers* than you.

It seems to me (and I'm not sure why I never saw it this way before) that the Taalo and the Orz aren't on very good terms. In fact, I'd say the Taalo are trapped in *Pretty Space* and running for their lives... Or perhaps, the *Time joke* is that a psychic impression of the race's extermination was left in *Pretty Space*, and they never escaped at all. Either one is a depressing fate for a species with an already sad history.

Quote
This sounds plausible doesn't it? :D

Well, no, not really. Sorry!


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: spinsane on July 07, 2009, 07:05:42 pm
Antagonists? Not really.

After they were mind-controlled they do became the main antagonists; event of which Slylandro had no clue because they were quite limited when it comes to acquiring new information about current galactic occurrences. A lot can happen in 3 drahn indeed.

Dnyarri are the antagonists- the Ur-Quan are actually the protagonists until they start enforcing doctrines...


Quote
That's why I like the idea - it could fit in the main story/canon with no problems whatsoever. And I sure would like to see them in some future game mod, they could make for some really interesting story arcs.

I think it's beating a dead bush. It's like trying to bring the Mmrn or Zebranky back- it's just pointless. It isn't an element that will inherently add to the story.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on July 08, 2009, 04:12:12 am
It's an interesting idea that there might have been brown Ur-Quan running around the galaxy after their race was taken over. Though I don't think they'd continue to live on as a race.

The Ur-Quan tend to travel solo (I think it mentions in UQM that the Ur-Quan ships have one Quan on them and the rest are thralls) so the scout ships that were out looking around the galaxy probably each had one or two Quans on them. Not something you could use to maintain a species over several thousands of years.

Chances are, if some brown Ur-Quans fled and lived, they would die out of old age before running into other scout ships.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Son_of_Antares on July 08, 2009, 12:13:25 pm
Dnyarri are the antagonists- the Ur-Quan are actually the protagonists until they start enforcing doctrines...

That's what I said, no problem with that.

I think it's beating a dead bush. It's like trying to bring the Mmrn or Zebranky back- it's just pointless. It isn't an element that will inherently add to the story.

...supreme post analysis followed by even more supreme explanation combo...

Argh, you've just killed all the joy :P I'm not saying that it has to be 100% possible (or even 50% now after I've read what Draxxas posted :(), I just think that in my subjective opinion it would be cool if something of the sort would actually happen; just imagine:

What would be the reaction of the Kzer and Kohr if they would find remnants of their long lost lineage, their pure strain ancestors...would they try to enslave/exterminate them like any other race they dealt with so far? Or they would join forces and finally unite? Would they try then to revert the genetic processes done by the Dnyarri and turn back to normal? Would this event soften the green/black quans a bit, turning them back from the "dark side" (or at least back to neutral)? And how their sudden appearance on the galactic scene would affect the two doctrines? Would we withness the birth of a third doctrine - a new one or the combination of the old two? And how the alliance would react in case this would happen? And how...*(the list of questions could go on forever; as you can see it's not that bad story material)*

It may not contribute to the plot that much, but it would be interesting to see the impact of such an event on SCverse after the destruction of Sa-Matra. Even a lone "brownie" would have significant effect/meaning for the both greens and blacks not to mention some other races like Melnorme or Slylandro...

This all rant is here just because I like the Ur-Quans generally and would like to see even more details revealed about them and plots that revolve around them and their culture in some future SC games/mods... :)

Also the Taloo part you mentioned Draxxas is kinda creepy...but I like the idea.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Draxas on July 08, 2009, 04:15:48 pm
There is plenty of plot potential revolving around the Ur-Quan without the browns. The biggest question is how their worldviews would have to change now that their symbol of superiority has been destroyed by a coalition of "inferior" races, several of whom were supposedly already slaves of the Kzer-Za. Secondary to that is just how defeated the two Ur-Quan races are, and just how willing to work together or even fight other races they might still be now that they have experienced true defeat for the first time (or in the case of the Kohr-Ah, true defeat by non-Ur-Quan). Between those two points alone, there is plenty of room for plot without bringing up something as farfetched as the revival of a pair of dead races.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Mormont on July 08, 2009, 09:13:23 pm
The question of what happens with the Ur-quan is an interesting one. On the one hand, their defeat at the hands of "inferior" races would be humbling and may call the doctrines into question. On the other hand, something that a lot of people overlook is the fact that in the eyes of the Ur-quan, the Alliance essentially made a deal with the devil (the neo-Dnyarri) to defeat them. That might just validate their convictions that other sentient life cannot be trusted. I really can't see the Ur-quan even reaching any sort of benevolent neutrality (much less joining like SC3) with the people that made an alliance with the thing they hate and fear more than anything else in the universe.

I get the feeling that the Kohr-ah would say "See, this just shows we were right all along."


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Resh Aleph on July 09, 2009, 11:27:38 am
I think the Ur-Quan's (both subraces) defeat was largely due to the fact the two most powerful armadas in the galaxy just nearly annihilated each other. That together with the discovery of the neo-Dnyarri's existence, the destruction of the Sa-Matra, and the sudden attack by the potent Chmmr+Yehat fleet, would make them retreat to a different sector and rethink their lives.

My point is, they shouldn't really see this as a failure. It was just a mix of unlikely events. They might even resume their old ways without the Great Trophy (after rebuilding their armadas and making sure the neo-Dnyarri is dead).


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Alvarin on July 09, 2009, 12:53:21 pm
One thing for sure - I think they'll have to start relying on translation computers , as both 'Quans would destroy their talking pets just in case .


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on July 09, 2009, 10:18:42 pm
The question of what would happen if the Green and Black Ur-Quan met a brownie.

I think they'd either attack it, seeing it as a different species or allow it to join them. I guess it depends on how much of their genetic code was changed. Actually, it would be interesting to see how a brownie would react to seeing its species split in two. Imagine if you found out that the human race had been split into two different categories, genertically too different to interbreed. The poor brown Quan would probably run for the hills.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: SuddenDeath on July 09, 2009, 11:03:03 pm
The question of what happens with the Ur-quan is an interesting one. On the one hand, their defeat at the hands of "inferior" races would be humbling and may call the doctrines into question. On the other hand, something that a lot of people overlook is the fact that in the eyes of the Ur-quan, the Alliance essentially made a deal with the devil (the neo-Dnyarri) to defeat them. That might just validate their convictions that other sentient life cannot be trusted. I really can't see the Ur-quan even reaching any sort of benevolent neutrality (much less joining like SC3) with the people that made an alliance with the thing they hate and fear more than anything else in the universe.

I get the feeling that the Kohr-ah would say "See, this just shows we were right all along."

I agree...

Let's take a look at the Doctrinal Conflict. During the first Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah war, the Kzer-Za won thanks to the Sa-Matra. They saw how this could be a bit unfair (they didn't win by their own strength, but through being the first to secure an impenetrable alien battlestation), so they didn't eliminate the Kohr-Ah, just sent them the other way. So this can't really be seen as a failure of the Eternal Doctrine.

This Kzer-Za choice created a stalemate - neither doctrine would ever be defeated, merely one would be dominant. The dominant one receives the Sa-Matra, and dictates which direction (e.g. along or against the galactic spin) each subrace takes next. They go different paths, both enforcing their own doctrines, until they meet again. Rinse, repeat.

Speculative digression:
With the current setup (Kzer-Za dominant) it's possible that the dominating doctrine receives even more benefits: for instance, as long as the PoNaF is dominant, the Kohr-Ah are sworn not to do any damage to slave-shielded worlds (hence the Kzer-Za saying they are protecting us). When the Eternal Doctrine wins, however, the Kohr-Ah are 'right' and are free to take down slave shields and destroy fallow slave races (hence the destruction of Earth, Gaia and Procyon).

Back to the topic... sort of  :P

I believe that with the defeat of the Ur-Quan we are seeing the last days of the Path of Now and Forever.

The Ur-Quan lost the war... so what do they do? I don't think they would ever surrender, so they either retreat or fight to the death. I'll assume they will retreat...

So, the remaining Ur-Quan forces leave the sector and start regrouping. The Kzer-Za are shocked, angry and uncertain, and a simple message from, say, the Kohr-Ah primat could be enough to shatter the PoNaF doctrine. It would echo the Kzer-Za doubts and go something like this:

The Path of Now and Forever has failed. It maintained that genocide wasn't necessary for the safety of the Ur-Quan species; enslavement is enough. This has been proven wrong - the Kzer-Za battle thralls have turned against their masters (Yehat, Thraddash), and fallow slaves have nullified the Kzer-Za's great answer to the alien threat - the slave shield.

Fallow slaves were left to live in peace. This wasn't enough. The Ur-Quan have shown them mercy, even gave them a great deal of freedom, yet look how the slaves paid them back! Even after numerous Ur-Quan warnings and threats, they didn't stop. They broke the oaths given to the Kzer-Za, thus proving their untrustworthiness. No promise is sacred to them, while the Ur-Quan have always been truthful and honest.
The slave system has failed utterly in ensuring the safety of the Ur-Quan race.

To add insult to injury, the aliens have re-engineered the Neo-Dnyarri and used it against the Ur-Quan! They will use whatever means necessary, no matter how vile or underhanded - no honour.

These aliens are untrustworthy and dangerous - the evidence to this is incontrovertible. The Kzer-Za have hoped that there is a chance that it might not be so, or that it can at least be controlled... that there can be a kind of coexistence. Sadly, this is final proof that such an optimistic view is mistaken.

On the other hand, the Eternal Doctrine has worked well. The first Kohr-Ah defeat was a result of the Sa-Matra chance discovery, while the most recent one is due to weakness caused by the infighting among the Ur-Quan factions.
Without outside interference during it, the Kohr-Ah would have
(or indeed have) won the second doctrinal war.
Had the Kohr-Ah come first to the sector, rather than the Kzer-Za, all races would have been annihilated and there would be no threat.

The Eternal Doctrine's only failure so far has been the mistake of allowing the Dnyarri to live. However, the Kzer-Za made the same mistake... and it will now be rectified. No more Dnyarri...

No more divisions.
No more doubts.
No more mercy.

The filth must pay for their transgressions. They will never truly yield unless they are destroyed. It is time to discard the dysfunctional Path of Now and Forever, and once again unite the Ur-Quan. Kill or be killed - there is no alternative.


I envision that nearly all Kzer-Za will turn to the Eternal Doctrine and join the Kohr-Ah. There may be a few stragglers, mostly stubborn conservatives who would ignore the obvious and continue to enforce the PoNaF as if nothing happened. Kzer-Za who would approach and join the Alliance are extremely rare, if there would be any at all.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: spinsane on July 10, 2009, 06:58:03 am
I don't think the Eternal Doctrine > Path of Now and Forever is really so black and white.

I think that they don't consider other races a threat for a very good reason. The Vindicator flying around only gets met with "oh we'll punish earth AFTER we're done with this little interracial spat...". What damage could the Vindicator honestly do? Any race that interferes is attacked by both Quans, and yet while they are fighting BOTH doctrines are on hold. The Kzer-Za don't have the local personnel to enforce enslavement (The battle of Delta Gorno is, according to the Chmmr, the primary reason why the Kzer-Za would lose the doctrinal conflict) and the Kohr-Ah aren't annihilating other races while they fight the conflict.

SC2 is a bunch of freak events and serendipity. The Kzer-Za may have predicted that the Chen/Mrn would seek a synthetic union, and that they may acquire the tech necessary to disable the shield, but they might've known all that would happen after the conflict was over. Their ships are designed to super-destruct on death to destroy their tech and pet. Neither Quan properly dealt with the Utwig *points finger at Primat*. Both Quan would've overlooked Unzervalt due to interference from the other--- That there was a SECOND precursor bomb in the quadrant, that there was a Sun Device that could accelerate the Process, that a Talking Pet was revived to Dnyarri status, and that there was a precursor vessel tough enough to get close enough to the Sa-Matra is all incredibly improbable.

The Chmmr were most likely setup around the doctrinal conflict preparing for a surprise attack after the Sa-Matra is destroyed. IMO- the Sa-Matra escort fleet gets wiped out in the blast. It is composed mostly of Kzer-Za, so that's a LOT of ships that the Kzer-Za have lost to precursor bombs... The Kohr-Ah fleet only really took minor damage from the Utwig/Thraddash/Supox and whatever amount of damage was sustained from the Kzer-Za (which wasn't enough to prevent them from wiping out everybody discluding the Chmmr-- suffice to say that the Chmmr are the camelback breakers). NAFS forces, primarily yehat/chmmr, make enough critical strikes to force the Quans to retreat beyond the Magellanic Clouds.

In all liklihood, the primary production facilities of the Quans are not local to the scope of SC2, so even though both of their combat fleets are forced to retreat (probably to Kzer-Za territory) they will be retreating to familiar terrain where it probably wouldn't be too difficult for them to recooperate their losses. In other words, the threat of the NAFS isn't THAT big a deal in the galactic context. Both Quans still have their respective "empires", the Kohr-Ah fleet may be seperated from their means of production, but that's not necessarily a disadvantage. Kzer-Za supposedly has many battle thralls that they can summon from afar, as well as local battle thralls whose confidence in the NAFS can be crushed (IE- if the Quans got close to Yehat space again, you can be damn sure that the usurper would fall and the old Queen would rise again as per their political engine).

Both doctrines are at fault, or rather, neither doctrine is at fault. The problem was that neither doctrine was being implemented while the conflict took place. The primary lesson that they learn is that doctrinal conflicts, at the scale they were performed, do not help propogate the Quans.

Would this lead to reconciliation? Postponement of conflicts? Reduction of the scale of the conflict? A new doctrine? A third doctrine and more conflict? Mutual peace with NAFS while conflict continues?

It is in the interest of the NAFS that the PoNaF beats the eternal doctrine (much better to fight the Kzer-Za as opposed to the Kohr-Ah or all Ur-Quan). The victor of the doctrinal conflict isn't canon, so it's impossible to say for certain whether or not the ED had time to win before the Sa-Matra was destroyed. This presents a few possible scenarios.

* PoNaF submits to ED- unified Ur-Quan destroys NAFS.
* PoNaF prepares for 3rd doctrinal conflict and the ED destroys the NAFS.
* PoNaF and ED put conflict on hold and destroy NAFS- ED most likely win conflict.
* Additional factional infighting allows NAFS to destroy the Quans.
* NAFS becomes battle thralls under a liberal interpretation of the PoNaF to provide the resources/personnel (but not ships, der) necessary for the PoNaF to defeat the ED. PoNaF doctrine becomes semantically relative....
* NAFS ceases fighting with the Ur-Quan so that the Quans may take their time to determine the doctrinal victor and the NAFS can go sneaky sneaky and convert Battle Thralls/stabilize their war engine to fight whomever wins the conflict.
* NAFS obliterates the Quans somehow and forces them to be peaceful.... or DIE!
* The Eternal Ones force everyone to be all hippie and find a solution to save all sentience in the galaxy! Yay! Then they go back to fighting.

Or any mix therein. Most likely the Quans just team-up and pwn the NAFS and then get to doctrinal conflicting later. I'm willing to bet they'd rather finish the second conflict with the ambient firelight reflecting throughout the shattered homeworld of the Chmmr. Alternatively the NAFS holds a stalemate long enough for The Captain to inspire revolutionary juices in distant Battle Thralls.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Arne on July 12, 2009, 01:21:00 am
Those are old concepts. I think I later redesigned the Taalo into big Barbapapas.

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Funny how no other races ever joined, then. In fact, the only races we can be sure they even found were the Slylandro and Dnyarri.
It's not really funny. It's established that the brownies did not make friends easily. They could have discovered other species, but just not made fiends with them.
The brownies did find the Slylandro, so they must have been pretty thorough though.


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Nope! They were actually the last to join, and had the least advanced technology.
When joining, perhaps. As explorers, they may have gotten early dibs on many precursor artifacts, so it's possible that they leveled up quickly despite joining the Milieu late. Perhaps some scouts kept wonderful precursor artifacts to themselves, establishing territories elsewhere. Space is huge, and I got the impression that the Dnyarri can only do their thing in close proximity.

It's quite probable that the Dnyarri on the Ur-Quan homeworld later tried to lure back all of the scouts so they could be infected. It's difficult to speculate how effective this was. In sci-fi ships tend to get stranded, loose communications, get trapped in time bubbles, run into portals, alien mystery artifacts, etc... (Edit: A lone worm might not have been able to reproduce though, unless they later remedied their mating troubles by artificial means. While they had their quirks, they were probably not stupid.)

Also, since the Ur-Quan were so territorial (less so later on though), perhaps there was a 'boom' with many eager explorers wanting to find their own little world to settle on. Their homeworld must have seemed quite crowded as space opened up to them.


Ultronomicon:
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The Ur-Quan soon found that they made ideal Milieu scouts; individual Ur-Quan could not only tolerate but enjoyed the prospect of piloting tiny, single-occupant ships to uncharted regions of the galaxy to report their findings, and the many Ur-Quan scouts gathered huge amounts of data, exploring great chunks of uncharted space.

So, their ships might have been relatively cheap to build (not requiring a large amount of planetary resources each), and they did spread out far, exploring uncharted areas, suggesting that they may have indeed gotten first dibs on precursor artifacts. Humans got stranded on Vela, so maybe something similar happened to a brownie?


As for the Orz talk about the Taalo, I got the impression that the Orz described the Taalo escape as happening 'now', because they see time differently.


Edit: didn't the SC1 story have a different timeline? I also remember that there were plenty of artifacts to pick up, and if the Ur-Quan had combed the area earlier, what is left by the time of SC2 must be scraps.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Mormont on July 12, 2009, 04:41:21 am
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Edit: didn't the SC1 story have a different timeline? I also remember that there were plenty of artifacts to pick up, and if the Ur-Quan had combed the area earlier, what is left by the time of SC2 must be scraps.
SC1 took place exactly 500 years later than SC2's date for the slave war. I think that's the only significant retcon in SC2 though.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: spinsane on July 12, 2009, 05:04:49 am
I think the main concern is that Ur-Quan just aren't social creatures and their scouting methods are solitary.

In the wilds of their homeworld, they probably had a breeding method something like.... man finds woman, jungle sex, then they never see each other again. After the momma gives birth, she leaves the eggs in the wild. Eggs hatch and the baby hatchlings all eat each other. Last caterpillar standing gets enough to make it to the next stage of their growth.

It's hard to say, but they do say that their scoutships are solitary, and Ur-Quan don't live forever, so it's just too far fetched for them to have some remote colony that the Dnyarri can't find out about (there would records and trade between colonies). There may be brown ur-quan artifacts all over the galaxy, but it'd be tough to make an argument for live brownies.

The best bet would be, against all sociopathic urge to kill each other, two ur-quan scouts meet in space and fall in love and live in a monogamous lifestyle. They seperate their young from eating each other at birth and somehow transcend their killer instinct to make the third offshoot, Plush-Quan. Over 20k years of isolation and a pastoral life, they develop a peaceful independent colony. Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah find the colony and leave it be because it is Ur-Quan, and the doctrines are intended to protect ALL Ur-Quan (unless you are a part of the debate).

I don't see them having any kind of important plot device... except maybe some awesome history and perhaps some precursor artifacts on hand-- but they'd have an eye kept on them by contemporary Ur-Quan. Whether or not the doctrinal forces are keen on allowing them to move around or not is tough to determine.

It all hinges on them swallowing their urge to kill each other and NOT information the Ur-Quan command structure that they were forming a colony. It's kind of deceptive in a way, and the Ur-Quan never lies!

In a sequel, it's a pretty big stretch-- but it is fiction. The Thraddash had contemplative cultures, the Pkunk left the Yehat... there are several possible things going on. It'd be an interesting conversation-- they'd have a ton of good history.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: CelticMinstrel on July 12, 2009, 06:13:52 am
Edit: didn't the SC1 story have a different timeline? I also remember that there were plenty of artifacts to pick up, and if the Ur-Quan had combed the area earlier, what is left by the time of SC2 must be scraps.
The artifacts in SC1 are minor artifacts (fuel tanks, crew pods, that sort of thing). No major artifacts such as those found in SC2. If they were found at all, they were likely dismissed as being not useful in war (though their location would probably have been noted, at least). More likely they weren't found.


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Alvarin on July 12, 2009, 06:42:37 am
"Plush-Quan" - liked that !


Title: Re: Ur-Quan lost link
Post by: Arne on July 12, 2009, 11:48:33 am
Also, if the brownies established any Noah (starflight style) colonies, someone back on the homeworld is bound to know something about it, so the Dnyarri would find out pretty quick. On the other hand, a territorial species might be paranoid and careful, so perhaps they took security measures. Any space faring species would probably start thinking about their survivial once they figure out how hostile space is.

I doubt all Ur-Quan had the exact same personality. There are humans who like eating poop, having sex with grates, and in SC there's Zex of course. A monogamous Ur-Quan couple (and other deviants) would probably be ashamed of their fetish and leave the homeworld. Perhaps there was a secret society of non-territorial brownies, like how Spathi have the brave Black Spathi (which may just be a story, I know).

Another thing to think about is that (Ultronomicom again:):
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They were solitary hunters who had to defeat their strong territorial nature, and the deep hatred between each other, to found a mighty technological culture.
(Although they 'still struggle' with it.)