The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

It's been about a year now since Toys For Bob started working on their current game. As I understand it, this project is to be finished in the summer of 2010. This means that we should be starting to think about what we can do to convince Activision to let TFB create a new Star Control as their next project.
I'd like to use this thread to collect thoughts about such a campaign and arguments which can be used in support of this cause.

As I see it, we should focus on showing Activision that they could make a profit on such a project. Testimonials about how much any of us liked the original Star Control II are all good and well, but it's not going to help much to convince someone who's job it is to decide which projects give the best chance of making a decent profit.
I think that we should show that:

• there is a broad support for SC2/UQM
• games which are similar (in some way) to SC2 are currently successful
• the concepts behind SC2 appeal to gamers today
• SC2 has influenced the creation of other successful games
• SC has the potential to become a successful franchise
• SC has something to offer to Activision which is missing in their current lineup of games

Those who have been involved with the UQM community for a while will have seen anecdotal evidence for each of these claims, but to make a case to Activision, we need something more substantial. I suggest that (among other things) we inventorise other sources which make reference to SC2/UQM. Anthony's Star Controller (http://www.starcontroller.com/) blog should be a good starting point.
I've created a page (https://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/script/index.php?title=Campaign_for_a_new_Star_Control) on the Ultronomicon for this purpose, and I'll hope you'll all contribute, there or in this thread.

I remember a year or two back in a Finnish gaming magazine "Pelit" there was a several pages long article about SC2. If my memory doesn't fail me, it started with the words: "When the best games of all time gather up, a strong candidate for a spokesman is Star Control 2."

There have also been several "best games of all time" lists online and SC2 has always been lurking there.

I'll also try to finish the first chapter of Groombridge Log before summer, so maybe that will count as something.

Is that this article (http://www.pelit.fi/index.php?id=63172)?

Now I remember that article too, but that wasn't the one I was thinking about.

It could also have been some kind of a collection article of all-time best games.

the more the merrier

I don't suppose TFB's unannounced game tests the water for this in some way?

I don't think that we're the ones to show Activision that such a sequel would be profitable.
TFB are the ones that should do it. They should make a proof of concept over a few weekends that is so convincing that Activision can only say "Woow, let's make this!"

I don't think that TFB conveying their vision to Activision is the problem. And they don't need to demonstrate their skills either — Activision has enough experience with TFB.

To make the case to Activision, the arguments which I named in the posting which started this thread, would be of help. And whoever presents them to Activision, we, as a "crowd" are best suited to gather the evidence.

It's also a chance for those who wanted to contribute to Star Control in some way, but can't code, or draw, or compose, or just don't have much time, to chip in.

I think the guys at activision have a perfect understanding of the arguments which you posted. They know what will be succesful and what won't. That's why they are still around these days. Surely, we can point it out again, but they're bound to disagree. You can be sure they've studied such a thing, it's their job.

Well, that's just a good excuse not to try anything.  :-\

We've been trying for more than 10 years now ;).

So why stop now :P?

Do they know what has been said about SC2 and UQM in the press? Do they know how SC2 has influenced current games?
I wouldn't be surprised if the people making the decision haven't actually played the game. They may actually chose to stay at a distance.
You say that they are still around because they know what will be successful and what will not. I'll grant you the first part; they do know what will be successful — movie-based games and sequels of old hits, judging by their recent games. But that does not mean that the things which they passed on would not have been successful.
Activision may not even take the possibility of a new SC game seriously, when they have the alternative of having another movie-based game made instead.
Someone needs to put it on their radar. And someone needs to show them that it is not as risky an endeavour as they might think.

As I said, I don't think testimonials (and signatures) are going to do it. Besides, this is a different group of people that we are dealing with now.

I think this campaign of collecting info for showing that a new Star Control game is profitable would be a great idea.

I wrote a few articles where either Star Control was mentioned in an article or someone in the game industry showed some support for Star Control that might be interesting:
Star Trek DAC is not Star Control (http://starcontroller.com/?p=956)
Star Control Influences in Spore? (http://starcontroller.com/?p=351)
If any game deserves an HD Remake... (http://starcontroller.com/?p=1235)
Michael Pachter Says Star Control Has Potential (http://starcontroller.com/?p=420)
Infinite Space Compared to Star Control II (http://starcontroller.com/?p=1194)
Blizzard Wanted to Copy Star Control? (http://starcontroller.com/?p=397)
Star Control III sounds like it could be pretty sweet (http://starcontroller.com/?p=1209)
Duke Nukem Loves Star Control (http://starcontroller.com/?p=373)
If TFB's current project is a success, that will show that if they can pull that off, they can pull off a new Star Control game as well.

EDIT: Added Duke Nukem voice clip.

You brought up a good point, I've played the demo of Star Trek DAC and it appears to be a complete rip-off what the Time Warp project started off as all those years ago.

How's that for influencing the market? I guess even trekies visit fan-sites of other worlds within the genre ;)

Brainless games like DAC don't need any plot, it's 100% action-oriented and plot only slows it down. However space exploration games require a good storyline and character/faction interation that is more than just identical interacts with different words, it needs heart, personality. So allow TBH true the masters of dialouge make a sequel or even a prequel ( time and location of the first docturnial war could be a start) to SC2. Because in this genre plot and storytelling is everything.

Devoted fans like myself have waited over 15 years for a new addition, once the ball gets rolling, what's another year or two for development to us?

Didn't UQM recently get ported to the iPhone? Tracking the number of downloads at the app store could easily provide an irrefutable, quantitative basis for how popular SC2 is. If that's not a good metric for gauging the success of a sequel, I don't know what is.

As for games inspired by SC, a name that kept popping up in those discussions is Mass Effect. From what I understand, that was quite successful, and may have drawn some of its content a little too close to the source, depending on who you ask.

I added it to that page already, might as well put it here:
Galactic Civlizations 2.
Now stop me if this sounds familiar: One clan of an evil race, black clan at that, decides that the only way to deal with conquered aliens is through mass xenocide, while the other see enslavement as the ultimate solution. The other one is called Korath. Need I go on? Oh, there're also Precursor in the game, and an alliance against the Drengin (that evil race from which Korath seceded)....

Mass effect is a lot of what a star control sequel should be. Its story is even better, making you care about the other people on your ship etc was a feeling I never had in SC, where some races weren't really fleshed out enough to make me care for them (Chmmr and Supox)

Now that's just ridiculous. Do you really have to play the contrarian all the time?

Well, I think it's worth bringing some attention to how many other games from the early 90's have been ported to so many different platforms...not many, I think.  That's not a small effort and the fact that so many people would put so much work into it speaks volumes about the popularity of this title.

In additional, creating an entire (and largely consistent) mythology for a game is not a small undertaking, and few have been so well done as the Star Control universe.  What that means in terms of development is that a lot of the groundwork is already there for a successful franchise.  I think we all agree from the game that there are some clear directions that a sequel could and should take to continue the story (e.g. Orz origins, ominous Melnorme and Arilou plans, Rainbow Worlds and fate of the Precursors, etc), which makes it much simpler than coming up with something from scratch and saves lots of time and money up front.  TFB certainly knows the story and had these things in mind when they presented it, so surely they could jump right into the coding and development pretty quickly if offered the chance.

As much as we are abused by sequels  that should never have been done in various media, how often do you have a dedicated and sizeable audience begging for one for 15 years???

On a slightly different note, I wonder if there's any angle to be leveraged with Activision by including some fan-generated content to reduce project cost?  I don't really know what I'm talking about here from a business POV, but there sure has been a lot of quality content created by fans so far in terms of music and graphics and such which would be awesome to have incorporated somehow.  I seem to think contests like that are a great way of publicizing a product, too.  Has that been done in any kind of major release of a game and do you think it might result in any additional attention to the project?  I realize that may be a non-starter according to traditional business models, but I thought I'd throw it out there...we're brainstorming, right?

Do you really have to take up such an attitude against everyone whom you disagree with?

Let's stay on topic.

Is there any way of tallying downloads of the Wii port? That'd help with the same thing.

Except that running homebrew software on a Wii is technically outside of the TOS agreement, so I don't think that's such a great argument.

Yeah, but that's mostly because of the backup loaders and usb loaders.
What would help is an VC rerelease of SC1 and 2. Or something along those lines.

A VC download of SC2 couldn't happen, they don't do 3DO and it doesn't have enough good games for them ever to bother.  For awhile I hoped the Genesis version of SC1 would make it to the virtual console and that would spark some interest in Star Control, but it seems the copyright to that is a big tangled mess.

I'm not sure if it would ever appear on Virtual Console.  The Genesis version of Star Control along with Accolade's other Genesis ports were unlicensed.  I'm not sure if Nintendo would let it appear on VC.  The Genesis version is slower and choppier then the PC version:

Does that mater though? If we can say "look how many people actually downloaded the port to their Wii from this website", will Activision care whether these enthusiasts are breaking a Nintendo TOS or not?

It could carry more weight in fact, judging from Eth's comments on the release on the SCDB the process of making it work is a little more complicated than simply browsing the store and going "Eh, that looks fun" (DAMN YOU PROTOTHEA). The fact that people are fiddling with their Wiis in a number of silly ways, buying SD cards and readers for their PC, THEN downloading the specially-made Wii port onto the card and THEN plugging it into their console, undeterred by such things as terms of service, instead of just downloading the nearest available equivalent from the normal store, should speak volumes. Just because something's illegal, doesn't mean the motivations behind it shouldn't be examined.

On the flip side of that coin, it also illustrates that SC fans are prone to using their equipment in ways that are not strictly legal. That's not the best impression to give the corporate overlords when you think about it; it's just a quick hop, skip, and jump in logic to determine that SC fans would be keen on pirating their software, too.

I don't think that holds water. That someone is ready to bypass a TOS in order to play something that isn't commercially available on their platform doesn't necessarily mean that they'd do if it there was a legit way of getting them

I'm down with this plan, I'll certainly do what I can. ;D ;D, look for a post on PnF about this soon if somebody else *wink* *wink* doesn't beat me to it.

Right off the bat I notice, on the wiki , Stickers and UQM CD , stickers I can do, UQM cd? what would that entail? "producing" distribution type cd's to give out to people? im certainly up for doing that, might give me reason to buy a light-scribe burner, make nice fancy labes.

(first post, long time lurker)

I think the way to ensure a successful SC3 would be to make SC2 popular in this generation.

How would you do that? Revamp the game to be in HD/Pseudo-3D, tidy it up, and release it on XBox Live, PSN, and Steam. Heck, release the original, non-HD on WiiWare (is it too big?)

I know there's some size limitations, but there's got to be a way to make this work. It seems like a relatively inexpensive endeavour compared to a AAA-game. Having been on both sides of the aisle (as an engineer and a startup founder), maybe it's the kind of thing you could do with 5 people, part-time.

Anyway, food for thought.

*frumple*

all of these points can be proved by showing the success of the game mount & blade as an example.

not only it is an indie game, (only recently being published by paradox) but also was developed with nil budget, and community support. last year, it swept numerous high reviews and awards online and in gaming magazines, and is selling like mad.

the current gaming industry is in a stale state. the only thing they are doing is rehashing old games and old formats so that they wont fail to make a profit. but people grew bored already, as shown by the success of Wii and its emphasis on fun and innovation, rather than tried and known concepts. mount and blade example only support this.

the moddability of the game further extends its lifetime. even if you dont produce anything as the IP owning company, someone produces a huge scale mod, which is almost like a new game, gives it out for free, and people who want to play it still come and buy your game, because it is a mod for the game in the end.

in short - such an innovative or semi-forgotten format (mega hybrid) game with infinite moddability would be an eternal cash cow for them.

they shouldnt approach the game with this mindset though - even these considerations are necessary in corporate world, having that mindset is detrimental.

basically if they screw up our new star control in any way whatsoever, they can be sure that we, 'the people' on the net will shove it up their butts. they should be customer oriented, or die.

UQM isn't really moddable, it's just a game for which the sourcecode has been released.
But I, kinda, liked the mount & blade game. Aldthough I have to say that 5 hours into the game I'd seen enough of Generic Character X offering me Generic Quest Y in Generic City Z.