The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

ive been reading all of this forum and you all can argue and agree and plain pick apart this great game but there are some things that you all fail to see.

     if you want to solve some or at least try to figure out "what do they mean when?" "whats the deal with?" or "how bout them precursors huh?" remember that this game and its "full story"--meaning sc1, sc2 and a never made (sc3), were all written at least 10 years ago. whats my point is that theres been alot of sci fi with alot of things plots and storys that i think most of us seen. but when i look at what u guys write, its like your drawing conclusions using ideas and storys and plots that are all (new). i bet that if  the true sc3 was made and not the other sc3 that the story might of gone along the lines of maybe something thats already been done.
     for instance: may be the precursors were at war with another equally powerful race(babylon 5's shadowes vs vorlon) after all they did have a powerful battle ship and more than likley a crapload of, armed to the teeth, work horse ships. your ideas (dont get me wrong) are not of that *time* or that *place*. 10 years, after all is alot sh*t(ideas) down the tv, movie , book, chicken scratch, drain. the big fire work of an ending you all been looking for might just go fizzel then go out(its all been done im sure), sad yes but its in the hands now of people of this *time* and *place* so we just might get some thing new. just my take on it, after all its only a game and a good one at that.~DEFIANT

   

eh - while you have a point, your point doesn't really mean that we're missing ours.

I don't see what the crime is.  People have questions about the game, and we seek to answer them... I think what this board does is give people the chance to truly explore the Star Control games, the things that made the series to memorable to all of us, and then expand on the subject where the games never took us...

I don't think it's wrong to speculate, or to enjoy the Star Control universe by exploring what was, is, or could have been... to speculate and to be curious innately makes us human and we seek to answer questions, even if we should not.  All of us at one time have thought what would have happened in a true sequel to SC2, etc...  you yourself have.  And here we are, trying to explain the answers to the questions this type of game would've asked and you tell us we're missing the point?  I think the point is clear and that answering the questions we all want to ask is no great crime, it's a triumphant way of enjoying and further exploring the universe of Star Control we all love so much.  The time is now, as we all are playing UQM and reliving memories from the old days, even if the game itself is 10 years old...

In my case, I'm reliving the memories of my youth and asking the questions I never chose to answer when I was just a wee lad...  I think that now, 10 years later and as the community of Star Control fabs is alive and well again with the release of UQM, now is the best time to ask such questions...  the ones we all (except for yourself) are curious and would love to know the answers to.  If you have no imagination or will to seek explanations, then maybe the Star Control II experience was not a good one for you and maybe you should enjoy the series for its innovation instead.

Well, I must agree that the idea about the Precursors fighting some other race is baseless, (for example the Slylandro and the Melnorme talk about them but never mention anything about any violent action by the Precursors)

But I think aside from that eveything else is well speculated.

Roughly in the words of the spathi high council, "Peaceful voyages of exploration do not involve weaponry heavy enough to punch a hole in a small moon"

But whether the Precursors were or were not fighting someone else is aside from the point.

The point I agreed with was that the original plot may be very similar to a plot that has since been used elsewhere - and that since we trust the creators not to rip something off, we have been perhaps unconsciously avoiding even plots that have been published AFTER the game was.

::shrug::

This is a forum for discussion.  The fact is, there probably won't ever be an official SC3.  We may never know what it would have been.  I'm willing to wager even FF and PRIII don't quite know what the real SC3 would have been.  But SC2 put forth a compelling world, and it's one that's fun to wonder about.

So that's what this is for.  "I wonder..."

A precurser war isn't completly baseless there is the Sa-Matra afterall. At the very least we know they built the battle platform which leads any logical critter to believe there was atleast the potential to use it.

Ok, let's think of it this way; Once there were dinosaures, huge ones, and today there're small critters such as ourselves.

What I'm trying to say is, (and Commander Hayes says the a Precursor must've been as big as an elephant) the Sa-Matra could've been a "moderate" battle ship, same as our Precursor ship is already huge compared to any other vessel (well, it can carry what, 24 vessels?)

The Precursors might just have had a different measure on the universe. A dinosaur would see everything "normal" and won't think it's huge.

I think that "battle" is the operative word.

if the sa matra was a (moderate battle ship) than id hate to see what they made for "im gonna knock your silly planet into space dust" battle ship. something that powerful no matter if its a small medium or large battle ship doesnt nagate the fact that it was ment to blow stuff up even in defence. but heres a loop thats been bugging me. if u look closley to your workship and some what compare the style of design to the sa matra, to me they were built by a different race. the design is all different. i know no mention of that appears in the game but what if.... =sigh= ~DEFIANT

Yeah, the design is totally whacked. On the other hand, Humans have designed such diverse things as:
suspension bridges
the Pentagon
the Arecibo Space Telescope
The Taj Mahal
trimarans (rather like the main ship, eh?)
the b'at'leth (yes, in real life, HUMANS designed the B'at'leth, not klingons...)
box kites
helicopters
triplanes
All of the WTC-replacement schemes, some of which are pretty whacked.

so, you don't need a species change to make weird shapes.
Now, that shade of purple DOES...;)

All this doesn't mean that I think the precursors were necessarily one species. It may be that they integrated various alien types into a galactic society, or several such, in which species was insignificant - and we don't have the archaeological information to determine this. But it seems likely that they were one species. Of course, one species doesn't mean one political entity. These warships could have been made to aim at each other, or the eternal1s, or the ULTIMATE EVIL, or a particularly aggressive looking kumquat for all I know.

I've noticed that a theme in Star Control--and in any sort of space opera--is that there is much more variation from human to human than there is from alien to alien.  There are a few humans who are cowardly, but ALL Spathi are.  Some humans are honorable to the point of suicide, but ALL Shofixti are.  Some humans are wise and benevolent, but ALL Chenjesu are.  And some of them are real jerks, just like ALL the Thraddash.  This happens all the time, because of course it's difficult for a writer to conceive of a totally foreign society, and it's difficult for a player to understand relationships on a species to species basis unless each species is relatively united in its outlook.  Most stories explain it away by stating that what makes humans special is how varied they are.

That having been said, it's interesting to think that the Precursor's might be just as varied as we.  After all, the Precursor vessel AND the Sa-Matra were both designed by humans.

But only two Specific Humans (TFB) :)

Well, it's one thing to draw a weird spaceship and decide that it's the best drawing for what you need it - it's another to be set the task of building a spaceship and come to the conclusion that this bizarre design is the best one. For example, it's not, as the radical feminists would like to claim, intellectual/creative laziness combined with a modicum of moral turpitude which causes almost all rockets to be long and thin - it's optimization according to design principles derived from physical law.

SO, it looks like the design principles used for the Sa-Matra were rather different than those used for your flagship. Probably because your flagship has a different intended purpose... and possibly because the designers of the two vessels thought very differently from each other.
Still same species, perhaps - but a very different mode of thought.

Form follows function -- battleships and tugboats look very much different from each other on Earth, why would we expect an alien race to make all of their ships look the same?

I think you're absolutely right.  But it's worth taking into account that the other races--even humans, for some reason--are so stubbornly conservative in their ship design that they only have ONE kind of ship, even if (as in the case of the humans) it has some glaring weaknesses.

So, sure it's understandable that if the Precursors had two different kinds of ships, they would look different.  But if you look at, say, the Spathi, and notice that they have a million ships, all of which look exactly the same, and you look at the Precursors, who as far as we've discovered have two ships, and they're WILDLY different not only in appearance but in technology (The Sa-Matra looked almost organic)...well, you have to wonder.

Actually, I recognized everything on the SC2 box pretty quickly.  The massive ship looked more like the Precursor tug to me than the Sa-Matra, especially with its side extensions.  That front part on top could easily be a crew pod (windows?).

As far as the tiny ships go, I see an Earthling Cruiser, a Yehat Terminator, a Syreen Penetrator, a really weird looking Spathi Eluder (the ball parts aren't balls; they're flattish things that look almost like miniatures cities), and what looks like a Mmrnmhrm X-Form with a missing top-right wing.  Or that might be a Vux Intruder.  If it is, the wings bend down for some reason though.  At any rate, they're all ships in the game, they're just painted gray/black/white, not psychadelic as in game versions tend to come.

I guess one of the things that make the Precursors so mysterious is that they don't tell us anything much about them :P

I didn't get the idea behind the the Sa-Matra's form either; it really does seem somewhat organic, when you think of it!

Though if you think of it carefully, what we see is a 2D CUT of the ship. I think the asteroid shell is in fact covering it from all sides, so what you see is a giant asteroid with a force field in the middle..

Which naturally raises the question:  if you were designing a ship, and it was surrounded by a fused asteroid shell + stasis field, wouldn't it be a better idea to put the shield generators on the INSIDE of the shell, so that they're protected from attack?

I guess we know why the Precursors aren't around anymore  :)

Actually I always thought the shield generators were put there by the Ur-Quan...

As for them being outside the shield, well...

Just step around the holes in the plot!

;D

Another possibility is that the ships were built at very large time intervals. The tug we happily drive around in could have been a standard vechicel inm the Early Days of Precursorness. Later on,  a few thousand (or hundred thousand) years later, when the universe suddenly seemed darker and grimmer, their technology had advanced far enough to build quite different looking vechicles. The Sa-Matra might just be of a later time period.

Look at our own technology as an example. the good old Caravels and such and even older floats like Kon-Tiki don't look much like todays wild speedboats or oil Tankers. In their case the shape is still somewhat resembling, but who knows what new technologies the Precurosrs came up with?

Considering the fireballs and green things were created by the Ur-Quan to protect the Sa-Matra, that would make sense to say the Ur-Quan created the generators. I guess they put 'em outside since inside the shell you wouldn't be able to hit them ;)

Plus they (generators) might need some weird hyper-contact with the great balls of fire!
:P

Maybe the shield generators run off sunlight? Enviromental friendly while enslaving galaxy. "Go green! You know it's right."

Well, you could always that that due to the physics of the matter, shield generators must be on the outside of the shield they generate.  That actually seems realistic, as the shield must be generated from some point within the generator.

Then the real problem becomes, why didn't they just have another set of shield generators to protect the original shield generators??  Yes, this is obviously because then we wouldn't have been able to beat the game ::) ...but, there are some potential explanations (for instance, you can't have two shields in close proximity to one another because the frequencies would conflict and everything would go Boom, or something).  Such explanations are far-fectched, but possible.

Perhaps the Sa-Matra resembles a predatory creature that the Precursors thought looked threatening; something aquatic (or even space-based).

heres some thing else to add to the madness, it took less than 10 yrs for all the precursors to disapear. question? what could do that to star faring race?: disease? war? genocide? hmm plus they just left all there goodies lying around tossed aside like old toys. better question is what would make u leave your technology behind?

In the Mutineers Moon (etc.) Novels, the Super Advanced Race was wiped out almost instantly by a highly contagious infection which spread by a teleportation device.  They had advanced to the point where teleportation was possible, and unfortunately diseases also made it from point A to point B almost instantly too.  Just a thought.

As for the shields, maybe they needed space to cool them?

That doesn't make much sense either.  Its actually very hard to cool things in space, because there's no air to absorb the heat.  You'd have to have some kind of microwave-style coolant system that transmits the heat.  Thats why cooling things on the space shuttle is such a tricky business.  Most of it is done with water coolant systems that just take forever.  You can get cold in space, but it takes a long time to do that.

Ah the shields.. such a fascinating problem :)

Maybe the shield generators are on the outside because the Quan never expected an attack on the Sa-Matra itself? They might be there sort of "just in case even though we KNOW it's not gonna happen". I mean, when the Sa-Matra is active, noone is going to get that close anyway, so where the generarators are isn't a problem. And when it's not, there's a HUGE fleet of battleships protecting it, the Quans probably didn't count on anyone having a Dnyarri with them.

A perimeter defense that's there just to look good, cuz noone is ever gonna make it that far anyway. Probably not, but it's one idea :)

You guys are missing the point. The problem is simple: Excessive protection for their Great Trophy would be demeaning for the Ur-Quan. It is a weakness to require additional protection for your best weapon. The protection was placed there just to deter Kohr-Ah or Kzer-Za combatants in the Doctrinal Conflict to cheat by using the Sa-Matra, and it was the least protection required for that - the Ur-Quan philosophy seems to be "It is a weakness to use any more effort than required to do your job" - see how they used the Sa-Matra only in the end of the War, when it was clear that it was necessary.

furthermore,

It could just be considered the first line of defense for the Sa-Matra by the Ur-Quan. They got an armada of ships surrounding them before you distract it. The shield generators might only be there to bounce back the occasional asteroid.

Anyhow, Guesst is right about it all being done before. The Precursors might have been struck by a plague and forced to ascend (oooh that sounds familiar). Their technology might look different while it was built by the same race, because one was built when they were at the pinnacle of their technological development, while the other stuff was built earlier, before they were attacked by the Wrait... errr Etern1... errr Shado... oh well you get my point.

You *do* realize that this was four years ago, and half of the people who posted on it then probably aren't around anymore, right?

Then the new ones reply. Makes no point to have two threads on the same subject.

Furthermore what?

You know what, I figured it out. The shields aren't to protect the Sa-Matra from the fleet, they're to protect the fleet from the Sa-Matra!

The Sa-Matra does not only have weapons of tremendous power, it also has weapons of great subtlety. Unless encased in this shell, whoever is at the helm could invisibly turn the tide of the battle.

Or at least, the Kohr-Ah think so. So into the shield it goes, and the shield generators go on the outside.

How does that sound?

Yeah, that's right. Cuz when I said...

...wait a minute. What are you talking about. I haven't said but these words on this thread even four years abot when it had it's hayday.

Or am I missing the point?

Holy resurrected ancient "it's all been said" threads Batman...

Wow, What the hell was I thinking. And Look how crappy I wrote. What the hell! I tried to come across with a worth while point but I seemed to have been distracted by my own thought process...OUHH LOOK...SHINY THINGS.

....UMM...What was the point again?

I dunno, the Ur-Quan seem pretty strict with honour and such things. Do you really think they need protection in case someone just decides "Oh hay I'm gonna finish the conflict by cheating because that's totally in line with my strict  code of honour!" I doubt any kohr-Ah "Sa-Matra-jackers" would be very well recieved by the Primat. The guarding fleet seems ceremonial, more than anything else, whereas the shield might well just be a Standby mode thing. We don't know how long it takes to power up that baby.

LoL...that's just too funny!  That’s a good idea for a comedy skit, come to think of it. Have the Reservoir Dogs play the Sa-Matra-jackers. Mr Pink and Mr Blonde get into an argument over who should be on hostage detail. Brilliant!

That does make sense. That would also be the reason why the Sa-Matra does not use its primary weapons to defend itself and instead lauches those 'drones' to attack.

..and yet still spuring discussion among the young ones. All we cumudgons have to do is sit back and snigger.

Well in that case let grab my lawn chair and a couple of cold ones...this ought to be entertaining. ;D

Cheers. I feel young and rejuvenated ya old fossil.

Samatra and the Preccie vessel haven't necessarily originally been developed as battle platforms. The game hints every now and then that the shaggy ones used the ships for space mining. Maybe Sa-matra was there for conveniently exploding moons or asteroids of certain size? If the project is very large, then use the Preccie bomb instead - with the cost of a much rougher result. The Flagship is probably just some kind of crew transportation vessel or similar. Maybe it's used for harvesting what Sa-Matra and Preccie bombs have produced? Remember that most of its weapons come from the Mael Num descendants. Why would the Preccies have built such a puny weapon for their ship if it was built for fighting?
Sa-Matra is also not necessarily developed by the Preccies, but it might be a relic from some race that lived hundreds of thousands of years before the Preccies and were a lot larger than the tiny shaggety-shag-shags.

And don't forget Mark II, dudes! That's Preccie too, isn't it?

Actually the Sa-Matra was a Precursor Battleship. From the Melnorme:
The civil war between the Green Ur-Quan, the followers of Kzer-Za
and their opponents, the death-dealing Kohr-Ah, lasted for decades.
It is likely that they would have annihilated each other
were it not for a chance discovery by a Kzer-Za -- a Precursor Battleship!
The vessel was huge, many times the size of the Ur-Quan's vessels.
The Precursor ship sliced through the Kohr-Ah forces in days -- the Kohr-Ah were defeated.
However in their victory, the Kzer-Za were humble
they realized that there was a chance that they were wrong, and the Kohr-Ah were right.
Instead of destroying the Kohr-Ah, the Kzer-Za let them go
directing them to make their way through the stars, traveling against the spin of the galaxy.
The Kzer-Za would travel in the opposite direction
and when the two Ur-Quan forces met, they would fight again in a ritual combat
with the Precursor Battleship given to the winner.

The Flagship is a Precursor tug. The Mark II is another Precursor Battleship. From the 1998 IRC chat with TFB:
<_Stilgar> Fwiffo- what WAS the Mark II?
<Fwiffo> The Mark II was a precursor cruiser as opposed to a precursor tug which is what you guys flew.

Possible reasons for which the Sa-Matra didn't use its primary weapons (annihilation toroids and all that):
1. It is part of the ritual of the Doctrinal Conflict (sort of like wrapping a present) to temporarily deactivate the Sa-Matra (the Great Trophy).
2. Its primary weapons need some time to charge (the Flagship took it by surprise). Though you can stay in the Delta Crateris system for how long you wish, and the Talking Pet only tells you "not to leave the star system", not "hurry, before the Sa-Matra fires!". Kinda unlikely, this explanation is.
3. Firing the Sa-Matra requires a lot of energy. Completely unlikely, as, in the final moments of the Battle of the Sa-Matra, the Ur-Quan could have fired it anyway, as it's better to lose some energy than to lose the Sa-Matra. Or maybe the Sa-Matra can't shoot something so close to it? Maybe the Ur-Quan thought, at first, "Our ships can finish this human renegade easily, let's save some enegy!", and then the Flagship got too close for the Sa-Matra to be able to hit it anyway?

No, really, all these apparent inconsistencies/sacrifices for the sake of gameplay can be easily explained.
Why aren't the shield generators on the outside? Possible reasons:
1. Shield generators must be "encrusted" in the shield, which actually runs through the asteroid shell as well (the proposal of creativename, but slightly modified) - not likely. They could've kept the generators encased within the asteroid shell anyway.
2. It is demeaning for the Ur-Quan to use any more force than required to finish one's job (proposed by me) - kinda far-fetched, though it works. After all, the Ur-Quan didn't use the Sa-Matra during the Ur-Quan Slave War until after they knew they had no other way to win in time for the Kohr-Ah's arrival.
3. The generators are there because the Kohr-Ah believe that the Sa-Matra also has weapons of great subtlety, with which it could turn the tide of battle; therefore, the shield actually protects the fleet from the Sa-Matra, not the other way around (proposed by Death 999) - far-fetched again, though it also works. However, it doesn't explain why, after winning the Doctrinal Conflict, the Kohr-Ah don't take the Sa-Matra with them (unlike explanation 2., which does explain this).
4. The generators are there because we wouldn't have been able to win the game otherwise. Heh heh. Everybody knows that this is the correct out-of-universe explanation.

And why the Precursors had three different designs has also been masterfully explained by Lukipela. The Mark II and the Sa-Matra are from different time periods. I might add that the Flagship was just a tug, a maintenance ship (with rudimentary, functional-but-ugly aesthetics); I guess that every species has a warship design and at least one support ship design (as well as civilian ship designs). After all, the Earthlings do have support ships. Hayes:
At the start of the war, here on Earth we were working like crazy
churning out hundreds of heavy Cruisers and smaller support vehicles.

I think explanation 2 is definitely true, at least in respect to the Sa-Matra itself. They didn't use it for a very long time indeed. The only real issue is that it doesn't really explain why the shield generators are on the outside.

Actually I think that, though it's very far-fetched, one might say that making the defenses breakable (by placing the generators on the outside) represents a form of "not using overwhelming force". It's like an "escape avenue" to make the fight more fair. But I've just figured out another, much more likely explanation (and one which doesn't assume any new entities):

Explanation 5. Since "It is part of the ritual of the Doctrinal Conflict (sort of like wrapping a present) to temporarily deactivate the Sa-Matra (the Great Trophy).", the shield&generators&asteroid-shell combo would be the wrapping of the present. They are not meant to protect the Sa-Matra. (After all, if it was for defense, they could've just covered the whole thing in the almost-impenetrable asteroid shell, as obviously the Sa-Matra is able to blast it apart, and obviously even in the current configuration the Sa-Matra is still required to blast it apart when it leaves its "cocoon" - the shielded hole is not large enough.) They are more of a decoration, carrying who-knows-what significance for the Ur-Quan. (Also remember the ring of Dreadnoughts and Marauders around Delta Crateris V. That one seems quite ceremonial, not so much defensive, too: remember the way the ring is mostly composed of whoever owns the Sa-Matra at the current time - Kzer-Za normally, Kohr-Ah after they win the Doctrinal Conflict -, but four battle groups of the other subspecies are placed in the corners of a square inscribed in the circle?

And the sentinels and comets, if they don't have a ceremonial role too, are probably meant to prevent the ring of guardians (and anyone else) from being tempted to hijack the Sa-Matra and appoint themselves Rulers of the Galaxy.

That is a very convincing argument. Couldn't have said it better myself.

My input: (as per original argument regarding shields) The shield generators ARE protected by shields themselves if you look closely enough.

As seen here:
(http://starcontrol.classicgaming.gamespy.com/scsaga/sa-mat2.gif)

Therefore, they ARE protected entirely from small weapons fire (like an Ur-Quan's auto-fighters), and it would then be pointless to have them inside. And considering powerful devices and whatnot; you don't want to cook the Sa-Matra with shield generators acting as a microwave.

Another thing I noticed... Though it seems the booger bouncers and fireballs are coming OUT of the Sa-Matra, who's to say that the weapons (due to a 2-dimensional view probably preventing us from seeing them) aren't powered by the shield generators, or that the generators aren't weapons themselves or are just plain generators for the defensive weapons (including the doorway to it)?

Considering things, are the defenses in fact not being fired by the Sa-Matra itself? That can explain, aside from the huge-ass asteroid shield, why the ship itself doesn't own you in the first second of battling, and also why the attack/defense stops after you destroy the last generator, and the last booger/fireball.

Toss in the 3DO ending, the Sa-Matra uses on board defenses instead of the earlier defenses. And, probably due to Dynarri, is still incapable of movement and/or use of the primary weapon(s).

Furthermore, imagine how much crazier the ending could've gotten if after destroying the shield generators, things go all Final Fantasy, and you face the ship itself in it's raw "legendary" power. Well, so much for the Utwig/Chmmr bomb, and survival.

The final assault had to be a surprise attack, with the help of Dynarri doing his job distracting/confusing the fleets/crews, sans guardians. Thus supporting the 2nd explanation of why the Sa-Matra doesn't use it's primary weapon nor moves from it's position, provided by Valaggar Redux.




Off-topic Side note: That always bothered me about Timewarp (while it was still being updated). When you select the Sa-Matra, you can't actually use it's assumed main weapon, nor can you move, or anything but use the defenses.

Excuse the mini-rant.

I know this is an old thread, so sorry for resurrecting it, but it seems an obvious explanation has been left out: Since the Sa-Matra is not psychically shielded, who's to say that the Ur-Quan on board (presumably it is crewed and not just remote controlled) were not being manipulated by the Dnyarri to remain idle while you attacked?
The green blobs and fireballs could be explained away as an automated defense system that fires no matter what at unknown objects (ships that do not respond to standard hierarchy identification) that aren't permitted within a certain radius. The bigger, mega-destructive and long range weapons might require manual activation to actually use.

Another possible explanation of why the shield generators are external might be that it's more secure for logistics: fuel resupply can occur externally without exposing the Sa-Matra inside to potential sabotage by lowering the shield to resupply, ensuring it is constantly protected.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but don't the weapons stop firing once all the generators are destroyed? If you consider the fireball/green blob weapons to be part of a defense system other than the Sa-Matra's own (i.e. automated), this coincides with the Dnyarri temporarily mesmerizing the crew of the Sa-Matra, rendering it vulnerable.

One thing I always wandered about is why , if you have overwhelmed and defeated the enemy , the Sa-Matra wasn't captured and used against the Ur-Quan fleets ?

story wise...we are the good guy we don't rule by fear...On a more logical aspect...take de sa matra and you have the ur-quan AND the kohr-ah that allie themselve against you ...just for the sake of taking back what is theirs... and I frankly do not think that the new alliance could have won this war in a straight war thinking manner. Only by asymetric war of attricion not in a classical clash even tho they have the sa-matra

And how exactly would it be taken? The Sa-Matra is many times larger than the flagship and presumably has a proportionally larger crew. Furthermore, although the guardian fleet was distracted by the dynarri, it will return when the dynarri exhausts itself -- probably sooner than later. You would be left with an under-crewed flagship and a huge melee going on inside the Sa-Matra. Not a good position to be in when the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah fleet returns.

Better to blow it up I say.

If the Sa-Matra is even crewed, the crew sure aren't doing much - presumably disabled by the Dnyarri.

My theory is this: The heroes could take over the Sa-Matra, but they wouldn't be able to operate it - at least  not without doing work or research that would take much more time than they have available.

Ships can't be piloted except by the race that built them, right? Funny - the prekkies built the Sa-Matra, but the Ur-Quan have been flying it. How? Maybe they've built adapters that let an Ur-Quan fly it (albeit clumsily.) In that case, it would be impossible for anyone in Zelnick's fleet to do so.

Questions like "Hey, they've got a Dnyarri! Why don't they grab an Ur-Quan and force it to fly for them" are where the "heroes" excuse is reasonable. Also, Zelnick was looking for an excuse to blow up the Dnyarri...

The goal was to save the universe and free the Earth, not to unite the Ur-Quan against you.

...and, let's see, blowing up their best ship and attacking with a giant army doesn't unite them against you?

I'd think that having a ship that could maul them all without taking significant losses could possibly help keep your team safe, don't you?

Proposal for taking over the Sa-Matra:

[Dnyarri]: (To Ur-Quan:) <<STOP USING YOUR TERMINAL. KINDLY WRITE DOWN ALL THE ROOT PASSWORDS TO YOUR SHIP. PRINT OUT THE USER MANUAL AND LEAVE IT ON THE BRIDGE.>>
[Ur-Quan]: "OK."
[Dnyarri]: <<NOW OPEN YOUR DOCKING PORT FOR US.>>
[Ur-Quan]: "OK."
[Dnyarri]: <<NOW GO TAKE A TRIP OUT OF THE AIRLOCK AND THINK OF PRETTY FLOWERS>>
[Ur-Quan]: "OK."

----
    Also, I think a good idea for an SC3 sequel is to have the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah fleets, instead of falling into disarray after the Sa-Matra is destroyed and getting overrun easily by the Chmmr, instead unite and pose an even greater menace to the known galaxy, re-conquering slave races and generally ****ing *hit up for everyone. New doctrine, anyone?

I think that destroying the sa-matra...put FEAR inside the ur-quan and the korh-ah...what made them Better,greater, more powerfull...THE most feared ship in the quadrant , THE most powerfull one THE ONE...is destroyed... They were STUNNED by that. They felt powerless...so I don't think that the reaction would be to be pissed at us and to unite with korh ha.... they woud crumble on their knee (in a manner of speaking I am not even sure if they have a knee) and just ...I don't know saying HOW HOW CAN THIS BE POSSIBLE!

that would be what I think made the chmmr break in and kick their butt afterward!

It's a big universe, and the Sa-Matra can only be in one place at a time. The Sa-Matra has a central role in the Ur-Quan's culture; it was a major part of the reason why they were fighting eachother. If that reason falls away, disarray is not unlikely.

I think it's important to remember that the Ur-Quan aren't native to the region as well. The Sa-Matra worked fine on the Chenjesu and M:bots, because they were defending their settled worlds and facilities against an unstoppable force. The Ur-Quan don't have any homeworld in this quadrant though, and taking their nomadic way of life into account it seems likely that they haven't invested that much in infrastructure that can't be moved. If they were attacked by the Sa-Matra they'd have the option of regrouping and going around it. Sure it's not idfeal, and it'd make their Thralls harder to handle. But it also means that unless the Sa-Matra can catch up with their fleet, it can't really blow them apart. and they can always lay waste to the worlds of whoever is navigating it.


I'm not so sure. The Sa-Matra was a "Great Trophy", but it didn't actually matter to them beyond the fact that whoever proved their doctrine successful would be allowed to use it to speed up the fulfillment of it. It's a symbol, and a powerful one. But not something that their success hinged on. The Kohr-Ah have never even used it, and the Kzer-Za only used it to finish up business once they noticed the Kohr-Ah were close by.

Since neither side controls the Sa-Matra anymore, they'll have to figure out a new way to prove who is right. Unless the fact that subjugated slave races destroyed it already tipped the balance in the favour of the Kohr-Ah. After the initial disarray and confusion when the Chmmr appear I'd figure they'd regroup and keep on fighting.

Ok, I admit that argument was a stretch. Another attempt:
"They managed to destroy our big heavilly guarded symbol of our supremacy in the middle of our territory! We must be doing something wrong! Impeach the Primat!" vs. "They're getting away with the big trophy! Get them!".

Yeah, that seems more likely. I think the Kzer-Za would be more likely to do the whole "Impeach the leader!" thing, seeing as the Kohr-Ah hasn't actually done anything wrong from their point of view. It'd be more of a "Stupid Kzer-Za and their stupid slave races, we don't wanna say we told you so, but we did!" reaction on their side.

But I certainly agree, some dregs running away with their Trophy would probably pause all internal strife until it was either taken back or some races had at least been exterminated as a repercussion.

Old post but what the heck.

My take was that the Sa-Matra simply didn't have anyone on board while the doctrinal war was going on. Obviously both sides had an agreement in place as to the war and who got the Sa-Matra at the end. It would seem likely to me that neither side would trust the other side with a crew on board. Too much of a chance of them using it if their side was losing. The fleet would be just as useful to make sure that nobody boarded it. The weapons were automated and put in place jointly by both sides as part of the agreement, along with the shield generators, mainly to keep out curious intruders and possibly to prevent each other from sneaking a crew on board. If you look at the weapons and shields as simply being used for delay or for attracting the attention of the fleet ships they make more sense.

I  think the Kzer-Za are babying their trophy. They didn't use it until it was absolutely necessary against the AFS. The Sa-Matra is capable of defending itself (seen in the 3DO ending video) even when it is "parked" if you will. The defenses are trivial in comparison with the fleet stationed around it and the Sa-Matra's own point defenses. The asteroid shell is a 3d object wrapped around the Sa-Matra otherwise there would be no point  in having a gate. The asteroid shell protects the Sa-Matra from the errant nuke that might sneak through the guardian fleet and chip the paint.

It could also be a nifty symbolic rebirth of the Ur-Quan when it bursts from it's shell.