The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I know it's against the rules for them to get their battle thralls to help, but what about reverse - engineering their technology and equipping it on their ships? They could also use the technology from fallow slave races.

Imagine a fleet of dreadnoughts that can cloak, use point - defense lasers, transform to blazer form, launch limpets and DOGIs, use Yehat shields, warp backwards, use the Syreen song (with Syreen slaves aboard, of course), regrow Mycon crew members, use the Thraddash afterburner, transform (or if that is too difficult to do with a Dreadnaught, just give it some of those long range missiles), fire B.U.T.T missiles, etc.

Even with inferior numbers, they could kick the Kohr-ah back to their homeworld easily

Ur-Quan arrogance would never allow them to admit that they might improve their own vessels with technology captured from a slave race. That status only extends to long dead races that carelessly leave their artifacts lying around for anyone to find.

The Kzer-Za could have won that war even without such engineering projects. They could have simply called in some battle thrall fleets as reinforcements, but they fought the war on their own.
Their arrogance might not be the only reason for that. The alternative reason would be honor. They wanted that battle to be fair, because it was actually a competition for "The Great Trophy"

Ur-Quan feel all other species are inferior. Even if another race had built superior technology, they never would use it as it would debase the purity of their race's power.  I mean they could have won the war simply by using the Sa-Matra on them too.....I mean that is how they won the firs time right?

Well, that's pretty much the only reason why they are even fighting a second war, because they felt they may not have won fairly the first time by using their new super weapon that they just sort of found lying around. So what would be the point of just using it again?

Not getting their ass kicked in the second war? :)

Of course, the Shofixti blowing up Delta Gorno with a significant Ur-Quan fleet in the vicinity certainly didn't help either.

Pride and principles are more important to the Ur-Quan than that, since they're dealing with their estranged cousins. After all, this is a battle to see who is both better and right in their choice of doctrine. Thousands of years of following said doctrine in order to confront the Kohr-Ah followed by 5 minutes of wiping out the Kohr-Ah fleets with the Sa-Matra is not only an insult to the process, but as a repeat of the end of the first doctrinal conflict, serves to prove nothing.

In my book they already cheated by using the Sa-Matra against the Alliance. But I believe their honour pontifications, so maybe they thought there was something special about this region of space that excused the cheat - perhaps the presence of such exceptional species as the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm, and the precursor bomb. They would know if that justification was valid, having ploughed through half the galaxy.

In at least some of those cases, I don't think it's a case of not being able to develop that technology themselves, I think it's more about an economy of weaponry. Economy of design and resources. For example, the Kzer-Za are responsible for the Ilwrath weapons but don't use cloaks themselves.

Actually, the Kzer-Za only used the Sa-Matra against the Alliance because the Kohr-Ah fleet was fast approaching. Also, they had nothing to prove to the Alliance, since they viewed them as inferior to begin with. The Kohr-Ah, on the other hand, are a different matter.

Good pont, it's interesting to wonder how things might have turned out differently if the Kzer-Za hadn't used the Sa-Matra against the Chenjesu, such that the Kohr-Ah ended up dealing with the Shofixti.

And wouldn't it be embarrassing for the Kohr-Ah to arrive and sit around watching the Kzer-Za grapple with the inferiors for another few years? The perfect time to cheat if there's some excuse for it.

Not embarassing, dangerous. The Kohr-Ah wouldn't wait around, they would engage in the doctrinal conflict immediately, and the Kzer-Za would be obligated to respond in kind while still attempting to hold off the Alliance simultaneously. After all, the Kohr-Ah didn't wait for the Kzer-Za to pacify all races in our region before initiating the conflict, but the Kzer-Za had already dealt with the most troublesome and most likely to interfere (or so they thought, anyway). Better to deal with the stalemate as expediently as possible using the Sa-Matra, than to attempt their typical war of attrition which could still have been going on when the Kohr-Ah arrived.

Yeah, they were winning anyway. They just sped it up.

They maybe wouldn't even win the war against the Alliance if they had to fight on two fronts, as Draxas said.
This can unlikely be called "speeding up", the Sa-Matra was a kind of their salvation in this desperate situation.
Without the Sa-Matra, the Alliance would be in danger too. Once the Kzer-Za are defeated, nothing would stand between the Alliance and the Kohr-Ah.
And the Kohr-Ah wouldn't be so kind to put them under the energy shields like Kzer-Za did. They would rather prefer to commit a massacre.
In a way, the Sa-Matra saved many lives of a former Alliance members.

You assume the Alliance would have won the first war without the use of the Sa-Matra, which is probably not the case. The Kzer-Za have been doing what they do for a long time, and have certainly encountered coalitions of aliens willing to stand against them before. They were, in fact, already starting to break the stalemate and push the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm back, they just decided not to wait and fight for every star system, and instead shatter their fleets in one move to speed the process and break the Alliance.

What you say is true, but without the use of the Sa-Matra, the Alliance would have remained in one piece for a much longer time, and then the Kohr-Ah would
arrive and attack the Kzer-Za from the rear. The Kzer-Za would have to fight both the Kohr-Ah and the Alliance. A nasty situation for the Kzer-Za indeed.
They had to get rid of the Alliance before their cousins arrive, and the Sa-Matra was the only way to do that.

I think the Kohr-Ah would have been more likely to engage the Alliance than the Kzer-Za. The MO is ``deal with the riff-raff, then get down to business (Doctrinal War)", not the other way. Although I do agree that the outcome of the war with the Alliance becomes a little uncertain if the Kohr-Ah don't behave like that.

Maybe there's a Doctrinal Conflict rule-book somewhere that stipulates the correct action under these circumstances?

I disagree. As you say, either of the Ur-Quan want to pacify any free sentients who might get in the way before starting the ritual conflict. If the Kzer-Za have deemed the Alliance to be a threat to the conduct of the doctrinal war, the Kohr-Ah probably would too. So I think they'd wait for the Kzer-Za to finish the job. Or help out. The Kohr-Ah may be simple-minded, but that doesn't stop them from being fair.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. Of course they're experienced conquerors, and of course they've dealt with organised opposition before. I'm saying that using the Sa-Matra would potentially give them an unfair advantage that the Kohr-Ah wouldn't have had in their position, even though it may not have turned out that way in the end. Which admits the possibility of cheating (to increase their strength for the war with the Kohr-Ah), although as I say, I suspect they had a reasonable excuse.

Come to think of it, it's strange Kzer-Za didn't use the Sa-Matra more often - it would end conflicts so much faster, saving so much more sentients. They knew they'll face Kohr-Ah sooner  or later and beyond the encounter there would be no life, so the faster Kzer-Za progress, the less Kohr-Ah would cleanse. And besides, what's the use of keeping that awesome battle platform, but not utilizing it?

Now here's an interesting question.....did the alliance cost the Ur-Quan the War?

If they had to immediately engage the Kor-Ah, then their fleets must have been weakened on the whole. Now they may have lasted 25 years fighting their brethren but what if having lost so many forces to the alliance beforehand made it impossible for them to ever win? No time to rebuild their fleets must have cost them territory at the beginning and they may never have been able to fully recover from it. If they had had say...5 years to rebuild before hand, I wonder ho things might have changed.

The Shofixti did, by annihilating over a hundred Dreadnoughts with the Ultimate Glory Device.

That's pretty much the whole story right there. The Shofixti took out 1/3 of the Kzer-Za fleet in one move at Delta Gorno, which left them at a severe numbers disadvantage against the Kohr-Ah. If that hadn't happened, then the second Doctrinal Conflict probably would have been much like the first: an evenly matched stalemate likely to end in mutual destruction.

Another question, would the Yehat have been able to stand against the Ur-Quan alone for any length of time? The queen ordered the surrender but they had thousands of ships ready to engage the Ur-Quan fleet immediately after the Shoftix sent in that devastating blow. If a coordinated strike between the remaining groups right after that happened, could the Ur-Quan been beaten back? *assuming the Sa-Matra was not used*

Well the queen obviously didn't think so, as she surrendered since she thought they would have no chance of winning

I would have said that she surrendered because of the risk of defeat instead of definitely being certain. Remember if they had been defeated she and her family would have lost the throne making that last stand less about fighting a losing battle and more about political cowardice.

This really bothers me. If "hundreds" of dreadnoughts was a third of the Kzer-Za's entire fleet, that makes the fleets VERY small. You'd think the Doctrinal war would have ended sooner, and not to mention, it's crazy to imagine them dealing with an entire alliance like they did, especially considering claims of "thousands" of ships from single races. Not to mention, what the hell were they doing sending a third of their fleet into Shofixti space anyway?!

Not _every_ source can be right. ;)


They probably expected to face the Yehat as well, which certainly alters the situation - the Yehat and Shofixti combined had stopped an Ur-Quan assault before.

Basically exactly right. Nobody expected the Yehat to retreat from Delta Gorno before the battle even began, least of all the Yehat themselves.

Also, about 'a third of the fleet'... Did you know that the US navy has multiple fleets? That very well could have been the Ur-Quan fourth fleet that got smashed up, just to pick an arbitrary number?

I'm not certain, but I think that's consistent with the source claiming one third. As for the other discrepancy, I believe it went dozens of dreadnoughts, hundreds of ships. The lower-ranking members of the hierarchy took losses as well.

Let me help clear this up.

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/BB_CO_Whitedevil/Yehat.png)

So it was the entire fleet not just Ur-Quan Vessels. Also in another line during that conversation they mention that ALL of the vessels sent to Delta Gorno were destroyed. So as far a a battle fleet goes, that entire strike fleet was lost and on the whole, Hierarchy forces were reduced by near 30%. They all state how this was Hundreds of ships and that when the Ur-Quan arrive in Yeaht space, they had a fleet of 1000 ships ready to engage them.  I get the impression that the entire Hierarchy fleet musty have been along the lines of 3000 ships total left around this point.

Based on these numbers, I really think that a counter offensive launched at this exact moment between the remaining major powers (Crystal, Robot and Bats :) ) could have pushed the Ur-Quan out of alliance space. Now I am making assumptions but if Hundreds (which lets say 200 as a low ball number) were wiped out in Gorno and that was roughly 30% of the entire fleet, then they could only have had roughly 1000 ships themselves left total but since they still had enough to make war on multiple fronts, I think it is safe to assume the destroyed fleet was larger then this. Also the fact that the other races were unaware of the Sa-Matra even after they use it on the remaining alliance powers would indicate they pulled back all battle thralls during those invasions of the home systems meaning the bulk of those losses must have been dreadnoughts. I think it is safe to assume that they likely limited the number of ships any battle thrall was allowed to have in order to minimize risk of revolution among them.

Only the Yehat were left at this point. The Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were the first to be defeated, followed by Earth. The Arilou bailed out and retreated, and the Syreen surrendered once Earth fell. Then the Shofixti turned Delta Gorno into a supernova after the Yehat withdrew. They likely faced the entire Hierarchy warfleet alone when they arrived in their space.

Extrapolating from that, 1000 ships was the remaining fleet after Delta Gorno, so the entire hierarchy warfleet was probably around 1500 ships beforehand. Operating under the assumption that a significant portion of the 500 ships at Delta Gorno were Dreadnoughts (in order to besiege and pacify the Shofixti homeworld once the battle was over like they did with Earth), and one could easily assume the the Kzer-Za did lose hundreds of ships; probably around 200 Dreadnoughts were destroyed, and that would be a significant number of ships if their entire warfleet was only 1500 to begin with, and composed of all main members of the Hierarchy.

Fwiffo was the one who said 'dozens', right? He could have been getting a version that was subject to some degree of spin or minimization - if not by the Ur-Quan, then the Spathi leaders.

I would have sworn they were the last to be defeated and Earth was actually first to fall. Earth was in between the territories of everyone and when they crashed through the defensive line they split the alliance apart by taking us out in the center. The Syreen I believe are the ones that said when Earth fell, the alliance just came apart.

The defeat of the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm was what broke the stalemate, but the fall of Earth is what really unravelled the Alliance; everyone else was defeated or gone in short order. But had the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm not been taken out of the picture, it's likely that the Alliance could have continued resisting the Hierarchy's attempts to get to Earth, at least for a while (maybe quite a long while).

The Ilwrath ships are designs and technology provided to the Ilwrath from the Ur-Quan.  If the Ur-Quan had the cloaking technology prior to the local conflicts, there is probably a good reason they haven't incorporated it into their ships (power requirements of the fusion cannon and life support for 42 crew members perhaps).  My one point of curiosity with the Doctrinal War is whether the Kzer-Za used their fighters (since they were all piloted by slaves, it might be cheating).  In fact, the Kzer-Za might have lost because they went into every battle with just one crewmember: the Ur-Quan captain.

While I doubt they went into battle with one crew member there is something of a point here, did they use slaves on their ships still or not?

They probably didn't have much of a choice. If anything, the Dnyarri made the Kzer-Za's territorial instincts even stronger to lower the chances of conspiracy and uprising among the more intelligent of their slaves.

I don't believe the Kzer-Za actually used slaves on their ships. I mean, they haven't even been talking to them directly. They were using their talking pets to do the dirty job. I just can't imagine the Kzer-Za captain with the Hierarchy slaves onboard the same Dreadnought. In addition, the Kzer-Za aren't afraid to pilot their fighters and die for their cause.

Manual says differently.

This does make one wonder how a ship of 41 slaves is kept in line by the single slave master. I mean the ur-Quan never had the crew revolt even once?

I'm sure it happens many times. I'm sure the Ur-Quan retaliate by executing everyone in the mutinous crew members' families before they execute the crew themselves as an example, if not just bombard their home city. The Ur-Quan are utterly ruthless when it comes to quelling dissent, considering how they responded to the Spathi's unwillingness to fight.

Heterogeneous crews? It sounds inpreferable to develop such an equipment that would be capable of supporting life for multiple species onboard the single Dreadnought. The different species require very different environments and habits in order to survive. Inpreferable, but still possible, I guess. At least the manual says so. There is the similar problem with the Mauler since the Druuge attend to buy slaves from other species and use them to man the Maulers.

Also the Syreen use slaves from other races on their ships which are hypnotized

Make all the inferiors use a breathing mask. It shouldn't be too hard to provide an arbitrary mixture of liquid gas to refill tanks, or even to fill a properly-sealed bunkroom with whatever atmosphere the occupants require. Granted, there's a not-insignificant possibility of the gas mask failing, but the Ur-Quan (and Druuge/Syreen for that matter) aren't exactly known for their commitment to slave safety...

You have a point but i still am surprised they have never had a ship taken over by the crew, they are so paranoid about someone getting access to one of their ships  you would think they would be terrified of a slave revolt.

Would you dare to start a mutiny, knowing that even if you succeed, your whole family/city/planet/species would suffer for it? (Not to mention all the other Hierarchy vessels that have been given orders to shoot you on sight...) Even Hayes was reluctant to join Zelnick, for fear of what the Ur-Quan would do to humanity at large.

I forget how affective fear can be as a weapon :)

I must disagree. While I'm sure fear can be an effective (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/effective) weapon, I don't think it is affective (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affective) (emotionally charged) when used as a weapon. Angry episodes are affective, but in those cases, fear is not being used as a weapon; fear is just a side effect of anger.

The Ur-Quan probably have a secret command override code that only the lords commanding the ships know, so if the slaves try to take it over they just enter the code and lock out all of the controls

Bloody grammar Nazi's! :)