The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Lets be straight, SC2 is the best games ever.  But I have always wondered how it's possible for Kor-Ah to ever beat Ur-Quan in the battle thralls......  Ur-Quan is nearly invincible in battle with kor-ah...  Just a thought.

I never found it very difficult to beat an Ur-Quan with a Kohr-Ah. If they send fighters, use your FRIED. Create a little barrier of those ninja stars between you and the opponent and he'll either waste firepower shooting through them or take damage. It's all about doing what you can to keep the Ur-Quan at bay while sending out a flurry of stars. If he ever gets too close just maul him with the FRIED. When you learn how to time it right, it's a killer.

I'm not trying to say the Kohr-Ah are going to win every fight, cuz we both know it's not going to happen. But they're not just fighting a bunch of ship-to-ship battles, they have fleets and there are combat tactics and such. I'm sure it's a different way of fighting than the player experiences.

And anyway, the Ur-Quan fleet was reduced by about 30% when the Shofixti made their sun flare up. Add to that the fact that the Ur-Quan won't let anybody else fight with them, and there you have it.

Also, even without the loss of 30% of their fleet, I think the Kohr-Ah simply have more backing. I mean, they cleanse worlds. That basically takes a little less resources than enslaving, seeing as when the Kzer-Za go "Alright, we've defeated you and now you surrender. We will either build a huge slave-shield or allow you to carry on and be battle thralls. I imagine every now and then someone turns against them as well. The point is that some races get to keep most of their resources, and others get a slaveshield that needs taking care of.

When the Kohr-Ah get to the #Alright we've defeated you" point they simply keep going and destroy everything. then they can take as much resources as they want. Do they colonise? In that case, they'd have a huge backup force, but given their psychology I think not.

So even if the fleets would arrive unscathed, the Ur-quan fleet has wandered through half the galaxy fighting, and then using some parts of the galaxys resources to arm themselves, constantly leaving ships behind to guard the rear from upstart Battle thralls, whereas the Kohr-Ah just have empty void behind them, and have had the opportunity to use all the resources in their half of the galaxy (well ,except for what they burn to the ground).

So they clearly have a stronger fleet.

Yeah, but it's not like cleansing life from the galaxy doesn't involve a LOT of fighting...

Ture, but to totally subjugate a race and to agnili.. ahnila.. well you know is similar up until the point of surrender. at that stage to kohr-ah go on fighting, and depending on the race they may well encounter massive resistance or very little.

Onm the other hand, dismantling a race fleet, or keeping an eye on them in case of insurrection must take resources as well.

Interesting point. When the humans gave up, the whole race was slaveshielded. But if a race consists of cooperating planets, or maybe several space empires. How would they sutff anyone onto one planet without turning it into a slow genocide?

Go visit Vela I for your answer.  ;D

The answer is simple: The Sa-Matra.

It's one of the reasons why the Kohr-Ah are so darned evil.  That and they like to kill all life in the galaxy, just for shits and giggles.

Erm, the Kohr-ah are purging the life of the galaxy so that they won't be taken over again like before with the Dnyarri.  They simply think that the only way to be absolutely sure it won't happen again is to destroy all life in the galaxy, because they were bred to be a warrior race by the Dnyarri, and that's how they think.

You must not forget the genetic purpose each of the two races was created for.
If I'm not mistaken, the Ur-Quan Kor-Ah (black) were genetically created warriors, meaning all their thinking and behavior is totally directed on war and all its aspects.
On the other hand, the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za (our 'favorite' greenies) are scientists and bureaucrats. NOW, what do you think who's more suited to fight a war, huh?
Just imagine a single "Rambo"-Kor-Ah visiting an office full of typewriting Kzer-Za and you will get the picture...

The Kohr-Ah aren't just warriors, they are laborers as well. They are the doers.

The Green Ur-Quan, effete scientists and bureaucrats and the Black Ur-Quan, their Effectuators, the builders, the fighters, the doers.
The Kzer-Za are the thinkers.

They built two Ur-Quan sub-races one Green, the thinkers and planners the other Black, the warriors and laborers.
When this is considered their respective choices of how to proceed after overthrowing the Dnyarri make sense.

The Kzer-Za set up this big bureaucratic system with a lot of red tape and very specific rules about everything. Their solution was complicated but effective.

The Kohr-Ah chose a path that required a lot less thinking and a lot more doing: kill everything that isn't an Ur-Quan. Their solution was simple but effective.

I think both subspecies are effective warriors, however. Their track records speak for them: neither of them lost a war after they gained their freedom (that we know of) unless it was against each other. Until the events of SC2 when they both lost.

I agree.  The balance of power between the warrior and the scientist is a lot more even when they both have a huge, complicated spaceship at their disposal.

When the Kohr-Ah wipe a system clean, they move on.
When the Kzer-Za conquer a system they probably leave behind some ships to make sure that thralls stay loyal.  By the very nature of their two approaches, they Kohr-Ah would seem to bring a bigger fleet to the battle.  The Kzer-Za are too spread out, while the Kohr-Ah move en masse.

All of you are making similar points supporting the Kohr-Ah, but remember that the Kzer-Za's strategy for subjegating species was to conquer the weak races first, then progress onto the stronger. They would make their nearby Battle Thralls do all the dirty work when it came down to engaging tough spots (like the Alliance of Free Stars), so this would greatly lower Kzer-Za casualties compared to the loses the Kohr-Ah took. Notice that at the beginning of the Doctrinal War, both Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah have roughly the same fleet size. So their doctrines are equally efficient at neutralizing other races. But in a fair fight with no Thralls involved, the warrior class wins pretty much by default. This makes me believe that when the Ur-Quan saw the Kohr-Ah fleet wasn't vastly smaller than theirs, they probably knew their cause was lost but didn't want to give up.

Good point.  While the Kzer-Zah do have to deploy extra resources to slave shield rather than to just destroy, as well as maintaining a beauracracy for their Thralls, they do gain allies that make ensuing wars easier and reduce Kzer-Zah casualties.



Why would you say that?  Obviously, while each side has its own philosophical leanings, they both have warships that are the result of highly advanced technology.  This is not hand-to-hand combat--as long as the warships are comparable, then the battle between the thinker and ther warrior will be even (one could even argue the thinkers would be better at strategizing, thus giving them the advantage; however both races are likely equal in this regard due to their thousands of years of combat experience).

I would think the same thing myself, but there's one fact that kind proves that the Kohr-Ah are superior combatants, even in space: the Kohr-Ah defeat the Kzer-Za in the game. Nothing even makes it possible for the Kzer-Za to win. After the Utwig, Thraddash, and Suppox all charge into the war and go after the Kohr-Ah (it's true that all three of these races were also attacked by the Kzer-Za, but they mostly tried to stay focused on fighting the black Ur-Quan), the Kohr-Ah still end up victorious.

First off, that doesn't really answer any of my qusetions does it? Vela I was a small planet whose population was small enough to probably have fit well on earth. So the question about how to act with a large spacefaring civilisation refusing the thrallship still stands. Also, when Vela I was discovered by the Kzer-Za, they were in the middle of a rather importan twar. They probably had neither the time, resources or incentive to transfer the popuilation back to Earth, seeing as they had a mite larger problems. Secondly, seeing as the Kzer-Za didn't know about Vela I when they slaveshielded Earth, it really doesn't have any relevance on my question about how the Kzer-Za would react to sveral groups of a certain species acting as independent nations and refusing to surrender together, and how their shielding/thralldom would be carried out. You can't really react to what you don't know, can you?

Excellent point on the Kzer-Za taking less hits due to their battle thralls. I suppose that would make their losses quite a bitl ower, and seeing as you need captains as well as resources it might well even out. another intersting point that I think I heard mentioned either here or on Channel 44 earlier on. The Kzer-Za basically only need one person per ship, the rest is stocked by battle thralls. So if they have the resources, they can build a ship per race member. However, the Kohr-Ah aren't gonna bring anyone aboard their ships. If we assume (and should we?) that this means there are 42 Kohr-Ah per ship, their fleet would have a smaller ratio compared to the general amount of population... and seeing as their population will be smaller since the Kzer-Za will save losses thanks to the battle thralls, this means the Kzer-Za would actually be stronger... So I guess we have the Shofixti to thank for almost becoming extinct...

I don't think the Kzer-Za had battle thralls on board their ships for the doctrinal war because you never hear any of the races complain about having to send large amounts of crew over to the conflict. If the Kzer-Za were doing that, they probably would have all the Thralls fighting the Kohr-Ah, too. No, I believe the Ur-Quan see this as some sort of holy war between brothers only. So both Ur-Quan species are either doing:

One crew member per ship. The rest of the work is done by machines.

OR

Full crew compliments for their ships, petty territorial instincts ignored for the time.

It always struck me that the Kohr-Ah were the more brute strength fighters while the Kzer-Za used their intellect more...as in the fighters.

On the other hand, smashing the fire button with a Dreadnought will get you much further than with a Marauder. What is it - something like 42 damage in two seconds with a Dreadnought, and 16 damage in 2 seconds with the Marauder? The Kohr-Ah have to keep their distance and pelt, or else execute tricky side-swipe maneuvers to pile on maximum FRIED.

I would guess if you're a soldier and have a warrior's instincts, you'll want to have the capability to execute complicated maneuvers like the sideswipes you mentioned.  If you're a scientist and intellectual, especially one as violently xenophobic as the Kzer-Za, you're going to want to invent something incredibly powerful, so that when you actually get into a fight all you have to do is hit the button a bunch of times.

Either that, or you'll want someone more expendable to do the fighting for you--like your fighters...

I've read a few comments about resources invested in whatever by the Kzer-Za.. Don't forget that at the first Doctrinal War, the Kzer-Za won, i.e. they wiped enough of the Kohr-Ah. Over 20,000 years during their spin around the galaxy, both Ur-Quans have populated their ranks, where the Kzer-Za had a lead (exponentially speaking in the end they should have a larger population than the Kohr-Ah).

Obviously they will lose many resources while defeating other species, which is exactly why they use thralls.

They will lose the second war however, most probably because of the Shofixti incident, rather than "resource spending".

Erm, who says there can only be one Kohr-Ah/Kzer-Za per ship?

The manual does (http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc1/urqtech.shtml).

At least as it pertains to the Kzer-Za.  The Kohr-Ah, having no use for subserviant races, can be presumed to be the only race crewing Marauder vessels.

well, the thralls already serve on board the Kzer-Za ships, doon't they? And it's not as if the Ur-quan are suddenly building a LOT more ships, they are fighting with the fleet they already have, so the thrall races aren't going to have to give away huge amounts of their population. There would be a noticable rise in the amount of fresh recruits needed as resupply crew I supopose, but given the Kohr-Ah's powwerful position I think more Kzer-Za ships were destoryed than just crippled.
And the Thrall races must have become quite used to giving away alarge part of their popuulation during the Alliance war, so they probably see it as a nrmal thing, and wouldn't frumble too much about it anyway...

In regards to the Kzer-Za having a lead, this is very true. but they'd also have to leave a lot more poeple behinf to cover their backs from upstart Thralls. Alsom, as there is only one Kzer-Za per ship, they might have been forced to take some sort of birthcontrol measures, not to overcorwd themselves before they had ebough ships. The Kohr-Ah don't have that problem...

I still have an incredibly hard time accepting that Kzer-Za cannot tolerate other Ur-Quan in close proximity, while Kohr-Ah somehow can. Given that the entire race evolved without natural predators and became its own natural predator, and the tendency for Ur-Quan to slaughter any other being in close proximity seems to derive from that evolutionary trait, I doubt that something so integral to the violent territorial nature of the Ur-Quan is absent in the Kohr-Ah.

I think it's far more likely that the creators just forgot that point (that Kohr-Ah don't take slaves) during the programming of the game.

Of course, that's not to say the crew can't be made up of robot drones (the Syreen song works on the Mmrnmhrm, doesn't it?) or even Kohr-Ah larvae. And even if the Syreen song works on the Kohr-Ah Marauder, and its crew are automated drones, it could always just be an uncaught inaccuracy. Much like being able to Syreen Song the Probes, if the creators hadn't remembered to program in their immunity.

Yes, but that occured before the Ur-Quan were genetically divided by the Dnyarri. How could the Kohr-Ah be effective laborers or soldiers (their designated purpose) if they were working all alone? That would make the least sense of all!

So perhaps the genes controlling their territoriality were tampered with. It's not an unbelievable explanation considering the Ur-Quan were genetically altered anyways, and it's the only way they could be laborers or soldiers.

The mind-controlled Ur-Quan, whether scientist or laborer, would simply be ordered by their Dnyarri enslavers not to attack one another whilst working together. The Kzer-Za still retain their territoriality, after all.

And as much as laborers killing each other off might be counterproductive, I imagine that researcher scientists killing each other off would also be quite counterproductive as well.

Another problem I have with the one Ur-Quan per ship vs. 42 Kohr-Ah per ship is this: even if it is possible, I hate the idea of the Kohr-Ah having 42 times the population of the Kzer-Za. They're supposed to be equals.

It's never explicitly stated that the Kzer-Za's Battle Thralls maintain their automony forever. It would seem quite logical to me that the Kzer-Za would use their Battle Thralls to aid them in the subjegation of a region of space then, once that was done, turn on their Thralls and forcibly Slave Shield _them_. This would eliminate any possibilty of a revolution and not require the Ur-Quan to leave ships behind as guardians.

In our part of the galaxy, the Kohr-Ah simply showed up before the Kzer-Za could execute the next part of their Path and make their Battle Thralls Slave Shielded.

Never explicitly? More like never at all. But I see where you're coming from, for it would be kind of dumb to subjegate thralls, then just leave them alone for hundreds of years while the Ur-Quan are elsewhere. If I were Ur-Quan, I wouldn't want to be left behind to watch a bunch of inferiors while most of my brothers battled gloriously with the Kohr-Ah.

I'm pretty sure there is at least one conversation in the game that spells out why the kohr-ah are going to win - the showfixti managed to annihilate a good portion of of the ur-quan dreadnaughts when they pulled their ultimate glory device ploy, and the kzer-za are simply outnumbered.  After a prolonged conflict with the alliance, and then with the showfixti managing to do that much damage, they're just too weakened to be able to hold off against the kohr-ah.

I'm not convinced battle thralls turn the tide in the kzer-za's favor overall either.  Doctrinal conflict rules seem pretty clear that only ur-quan are allowed (as show by what happens to the thraddash if they intervene).  If anything, that means in this conflict, the kohr-ah have an advantage.  The Kzer-za share their resources with other races that aren't allowed to take part in the battle, but still suck up the RUS.  The Kohr-ah, on the other hand, just blow you up, and share nothing save death.

The manual says that only one ur-quan is one every ship...but oddly enough, not one of the slave races has seen an ur-quan since the fighting began.  The kzer-za aren't going back to pick up battle thralls as crew, and the history of the ur-quan does say that the repulsion and hunter instincts of the ur-quan can be conquered.  It would seem the doctrinal war required only ur-quans to be involved, and if that means putting up with each other in close proximity...well, the ur-quan do it.  It's the fate of the galaxy, after all, the most important part of ur-quan culture.  I think they'll deal with each other.

As for whether or not races would be slave shielded after a certain period of time...well, looking at the doctrinal war, I'd say probably no.  The ur-quan basically told their battle thralls "We're leaving now.  Do as your told.  If you're not, when we come back, we're going to exterminate your species." - and it would seem they were content their reputation would get the job done.  

Nicely summed up, Anon. There is one flaw in what you say: the hierarchy races do NOT suck up the Kzer-za's resources. The Ur-Quan take hierarchy races along as support, and probably make them pay for their own stuff. If battle thralls proved to be that much of a disadvantage, the Ur-Quan would only use slave shields and have no hierarchy at all.

Oh, by sucking up resources I didn't mean that they're taking away from the ur-quans budget.  Just that if the Ur-Quan say "Ok, you guys pay your own way, here's your planet", then they've lost the equivalent of a planets worth of resources for each race, something which the Kohr-ah never worry about, since there aren't survivors to claim planets.  Given the way the Kzer-za apparently feel about the expendibility of the thralls, I'd imagine a planets worth of resources is not great cost for an entire species to die in combat - even if they're only mildly useful, it's still less dead ur-quan.  Comparing how they value themselves to everyone else, well, that's a big reason to keep em around.

And I mean, they did throw the bulk of the ilwrath fleet against the mhrmnrm and the chenjesu, and that couldn't have turned out especially well for the ilwrath.  But, I get the feeling the ur-quan would much rather have one less mineral rich planet and a whole bunch of dead ilwrath then one more planet and a whole bunch more dead ur-quan.