The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I thought it might be fun to have a topic like this...is there a particular match-up in melee you have difficulty with?  Is there a ship you just can't seem to beat?  Do you have a "wrecking crew" ship that gets stopped always by a particular ship?  Is there a ship you just can't figure out how to win with?

Maybe someone here can help?  Why not post it?

Sorry man -- the computer AI is laughable ;)
I hope once the final release is out people would start on improving the game by, among other things, making the computer a bit 'smarter'..

I agree...remember if you look at the UQM enhancements page, I suggested making another computer AI, noting several stupid things are done by the computer AI...

But thought it might be a nice topic for the newbies  ;)

Enemy Avatars on awesome seem impossible to beat with most ships. I killed one with a Druuge Mauler for fun once, though. But what about with my favorite race, the Orz?

One thing that could use fixing: AIs ignore Thraddash afterburner blasts. This makes the Torch the most valuable ship in the game against AIs when it's supposed to be crappy.

Orz was the second ship I was able to defeat Avatars with (first being Thraddash because of that afterburner)...I turn the turret backwards and start flying.  I have to play keep-away sometimes, but usually I'm able to just keep sending shot back into the Avatar until he dies...

Alright, I gave it another go. I'm doing a lot better against the Chmmr as an Orz. Whipping around a planet is one way to get out of it's grasp, but planets are too sparse to depend on. I noticed there are a few other ways to wriggle out of it's grasp long enough to pound him to death while using the gun Spathi style. I've beaten the weak AI (doesn't use tractor beam, very easy) and the good AI (a tough cookie) so far, but the awesome AI has yet to lose to me. If you launch a few space marines a bit before he closes in enough to kill you, the computer swirves away a bit to keep from being boarded, giving you enough leeway to escape. If you take out a sattelite and have a lot of crew left, you can kill him with marines.

UPDATE: Awesome AI defeated. The *rabid cows* have *danced* their last *dance*.

 Here's my list.  Note that this is relative to playing the computer -- some of these ship combinations are no problem for a human.  (I'm leaving out the Thraddash because, well, you know)

 The following ships can beat a Chmmr without batting an eye: Orz, Druuge (well, you'll have to sacrifice some crew), maybe Slylandro (I don't play with it much).

 With just a little difficulty, a Pkunk Fury can beat a Chmmr.

 The following ships can beat a Chmmr, but only with difficulty (and usually a little luck): Mycon, Syreen, Melnorme, and Zoq-Fot-Pik.  Note: I suspect the ZFP can reliably beat a Chmmr, but it takes a lot of patience.  I've only completely destroyed a Chmmr with one once or twice. (sometimes I finish off a mostly-dead ship with one of my weaker options, such as ZFP)

 The following ships can beat or seriously wound a Chmmr, but will usually be destroyed or seriously wounded themselves: Ur-Quan (both varieties), Shofixti (it can take out the zapsats), Chenjesu.

 The remaining ships are either sitting ducks, or ships that I don't play with enough to give an opinion on.

 Daniel

Basically, you want to exploit the fact that the Chmmr can't turn/accelerate as quickly as you.  It can pull you in just a little faster than you run, but if you pull a 180-degree turn and zip around it, it has to turn all the way around to catch you again.  I always keep an Orz for killing Chmmr (and a few other nasties in a pinch, like Kohr-Ah and Slylandro), and I never use marines on the Avatar -- even if I've destroyed all the zapsats.  It's not worth the crew.

Daniel

Hm... but there's no way for an Orz to defeat an awesome AI Androsynth, is there? I'm guessing the Orz disintigrated the Androsynth magically because their "scent" made them vulnerable to stuff like that, because there's no way in heck the Orz could defeat the Androsynth unless their invasion fleet was larger than the Ur-Quan armada.

Oh well. The Nemesis would prove to be more valuable than either Ur-Quan ship if it could reliably defeat EVERY SINGLE SHIP in the game, in which case it would have to be a 30 point ship. Speaking of that, I always thought the Chmmr ship should be 40 points because it's clearly the strongest ship in the game.

Speaking of how to defeat the Avatar, you guys are forgetting another smaller ship that can take it out.  The Androsynth Guardian, in comet form, can fit in between the front laser section of the ship and the wing of the ship and take the ship out if positioned right.  I've worked this tactic pretty well and can normally get in the right spot at least 70% of the time.  It's fun to watch the ship fry, too, using this sweet trick.

As well, I assume you're just forgetting the Dreadnought, Broodhome, Marauder and Trader for the reason that they're big ships.  The trader to me is a good Avatar killer.  The confusing ray dsisables their tractor beam so that you can stay away and pelt the ship with blasts from afar.

For the record, I don't really think the Avatar is the toughest thing...usually I can put a good hurt on one with any ship...IMO, the Kohr-Ah ship followed by the Chenjesu ship are probably the toughest to take out with most ships.

Depending on the circumstances, I can usually hurt an Avatar pretty bad with the following ships:

Death for Chmmr Always: Traddash, Orz, Utwig, Supox, Spathi, Druuge, Yehat, Shofixti/VUX (1st takes out the ZapSats, 2nd finishes the job - this was the very first thing I was able to do to defeat a Chmmr)
Death for Chmmr Sometimes (if no death, hurt the ship pretty badly): Zot-Foq-Pik, Androsynth, Chenjesu, Kohr-Ah, Ur-Quan, Chmmr, Mycon, Pkunk, VUX, Melnorme
Can do something usually if the ZapSats are gone: Umgah, Ilwrath.

If I haven't mentioned the ship either I forgot it or it's one that is worthless to me when it comes to the Chmmr.

...but you're thinking against the computer here, right?  Playing against a human controlled Avatar with a Thraddash is a good way to get your butt handed to you.

Yep I'm primarily thinking the computer with that list...with a lot of those ships I know I'd get my ass handed to me just if I was playing against myself...or any other human...

Just was posting my list in response to the statements: "Enemy Avatars on awesome seem impossible to beat with most ships." and "Speaking of that, I always thought the Chmmr ship should be 40 points because it's clearly the strongest ship in the game.".

So yes, talking the computer AI on awesome here.

What about the annoyances? How do you take out a well piloted AI Slylandro? Spathi? Ilwrath? STINKING SYREEN?!

And I am bound and determined to beat the snot out of several ships with the ZoqFotPik. I WILL GET GOOD WITH IT!

Don't forget the Yehat and Utwig that have picosecond reflexes so they spend one point of battery to block instant traversing shots. The Utwig seem to have been programmed more carefully than the Yehat - I had some real trouble doing any damage to them with the relatively quick shot of the Druuge at near point blank range... #$%&-ers

I agree that the AI syreen is REALLY annoying.

Slylandro - as you find in the game, an earthling cruiser can do real damage to a probe on Awesome (presuming the game enemies are on awesome...)

Spathi can be annoying, but the AI can be defeated by Earthlings, Pkunk, Androsynth, Orz, Shofixti, Mycon (though this will be a long batte!)... Of course, don't chase them.

Ilwrath - the best way is to mark the middle of the battlefield so that you know just when facing down is exactly facing the cloaked ship. Of course, use something with range.

The worst part is that the Utwig shield lasts precisely as long as hold the button down, while the Yehat shield continues for a second or so no matter how long you held the button.

On what planet can an Earthling stand a chance against a Slylandro? Sheesh.

Well, if they're on the planet then neither ship will be able to fly, will it?

More seriously - the Computer AI won't 'parry' your incoming missiles, so fire twice while it's at range and not already shooting at you. Then hold down the point defense for the last four crew and you'll make it out with 4-6 crew remaining.

This DOES rely on the AI being a little dim.

I still don't get how can you beat an Avatar with a ZFP Stinger..

perhaps with 12 Stingers, but certainly not one!

Use the main gun, fly around him and play keep-away...and hit him with the gun when it fully charges.  I'll admit it's not an easy venture, but a possible one.  The hard part is not getting hit by the zap-sats since you have to be pretty close to them to be able to hit the main ship.

Wouldn't a smart Avatar captain just tractor beam the Stinger into its zapsats, or blow it to pieces with the laser?  You're forgetting a circling Stinger could just be pulled in by the tractor beam with ease.

Take out a Slylandro with an unreasonable loss of crew? Super Melee, yes? For single player, I'll stick to Spathi Fu.

I'm not sure about that -- the Stinger isn't the Fury, but it's got a pretty good amount of zip.  Flying in circles means that the Avatar is generally moving away from you, or at least not towards you (so you can actually increase your distance under a full tractor beam)

I still haven't mastered this technique against the computer, though, so I'm not ready to try it on a human ;-)  (the problem is that it takes even more precise maneuvering than taking out an Avatar with a Fury -- you don't have the side shots, so you actually have to turn around and face the monster to damage it)

Daniel

Yes the Stinger isn't the Fury...but the Stinger has a more stable propulsion than the Fury and makes it easier to stay away from the Chmmr.  With the Fury, it has the sheer power to get away, but with the manuverability, it can have a tendency to "float" towards the Chmmr if you don't fly in a somewhat parallel line with the tractor when you get away.
I've flown towards the side with a Pkunk and gotten pulled in before...

Besides I wouldn't use the circling tactic with a Pkunk against a Chmmr anyway.

I got started playing around with the video capture rig I mentioned in the technical issues forum and got the first couple of videos that I wanted to share.  They basically involve the claim made in this thread and another one regarding the Spathi.  The videos offered were made with me playing against the Awesome AI.  They use the XVid Codec, and are 320x240 30fps.  The host here offers a 7 day or 25 download setup, whichever comes first, so if anyone wants to host them more permanently, by all means, do it (with proper credit of course).

Spathi defeats the Chmmr (5079K) http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=A871DEDC4B2F6620 (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=A871DEDC4B2F6620)

ZFP defeats the Chmmr (3043K)  http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=42FCAD402C6D5DCC (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=42FCAD402C6D5DCC)

Sweet videos Captain Smith!  It's an inspiration to those who think that the Spathi and ZFP are too weak!

That's awesome, Captain Smith.. :)
And yes, that just shows it's very muchly possible. However, myself, I don't prefer things like this. I find nibbling an Avatar down like this is rather boring. That and with a Stinger, it's pretty damn risky. Very likely that you make a tiny mistake and die at the hands of the enemy!  :P

I've found a way to beat an Androysynth as an Orz btw, what you have to do, is early on in the game DO NOT release marines. This will force the Guardian to go in Blazer mode and kill you really easily, what you have to do is gravity whip in an alternate direction. Once at full grav mode, turn the turret to the back, then release 1 marine. The Synth will blaze to avoid the marine but then turn to blaze at you directly, but a good thing is in an Orz grav-whip mode the Synth cannot catch up to you (and will most usually chase up directly behind you). When this is happening let loose with the cannons. When he's blazed up, you might want to pressurise him with launching another marine to expend his blazer form, or grav-whip again if he's going in another direction that would put him in the path of you.

Btw awesome videos Capt Smith! :P It's a change to see people who know that the ZFP aren't meant to be messed with ;)

Ilwrath are easy once you know how.  The recipe is as follows:

1) Get a ship that is fairly agile and fast, and either shoots directly forward or directly backward with decent range.  Good ships are the Nemesis, the Blade, the Scout, etc.

2) Pick a fight with Ilwrath.

3) Maneuver so that your ship is in one of the cardinal points of the screen (top, left, right, bottom... diagonal points often work well, too).

4) Shoot towards the center  It'll take you a while with the first try or two to find the cloaked ship, but just remember that is always in the opposite corner from your ship.

The Ilwrath ship is really the only one I can reliably kill with a scout (without activating the Glory Device).  The Nemesis and the Blade are even better.

If you're feeling brave, bring in an Arilou.  Have to get close to get him to decloak, but try to be moving laterally so you're not in his guns when he opens up.  Stay close to it, outmaneuver the cannon and while he's trying to reach you, he won't stay cloaked.  Open up on it.

I really don't either, but it started coming up when I did minimalistic crew games in Super Melee.  I didn't much like the idea of losing, so rather than give up I actually tried it and won with them to the point I started getting decent.

I really do think a lot of people just give up because they get bored or just think it's impossible without even trying.  I definitely believe now that there are very few totally impossible matchups in Melee.

Actually, there are a lot of impossible matchups in melee, most come in various challenges against Arilou, Slylandro and Yehat. Utwig is also a big issue for the highly damaging ships.

I noticed that the Arilou CAN be beaten by Mycon. The Arilou was flying straight at me, so I hoped for luck and launched a shot. It killed the thing, no teleport or anything. The next time I was in this battle, it happened again. ::) Talk about luck.

One of the impossible matchups would be the Cruiser vs the Chmmr. The best you can do is about 4 damage, twice if you're lucky.

Untrue, though it requires some extreme luck for the Cruiser with gravity whips to keep out of the Avatar's reach, while it slowly tries to knock out the sats. Once the sats are down, it becomes much more managable (though still very difficult) to bring down the Avatar's crew complement. I'm embarassed to admit I was once on the losing end of this matchup with the Avatar, though I've never managed to be on the winning end with the Cruiser.

However, the best plan of action is to avoid using Cruisers against Avatars. ::)

How? By tricking the Avatar into flying into the planet?

Zapsats shoot down missiles extremely effectively. The only way to do damage is by launching the missile so it emerges inside of its target, or by using the PDL.

Not quite. The sats only intercept missile inside their "circle of death." So if you time launches just right, the missiles will impact against the sats themselves without being shot down. After a long game of keep-away and whittling down those sats with the occasional hit, you will eventually be able to knock a hole in the wall and start potentially doing damage to the Avatar itself. Not a good plan, but it is possible.

I think most of us have goten so used to the rock-paper-sicsers approach,
that we (I mean I) tend to lose and bring in a ship better equiped for
the job.

Out of curiousity, how does one play keep away from a Avatar with a Cruiser?  My tests show that you don't have anywhere near the engine power, and leyland maneauvers are always fouled by tractors.

As I said, extreme luck. Get the Cruiser moving fast enough, though, and the tractor will be hard pressed to drag it around much.

Realistically, though, I generally just charge in and try to get my double missile hits in before I'm vaporized. Attempting to win this battle really is an excersize in frustration.

Inbetween Avatar vs. Cruiser, I propose two more 'impossible' battles:

Scout vs. Scout.  Barring someone failing to throw their last switch, both scouts are going to explode...

Avatar vs. Podship.  Not sure if this is truly impossible, but like the Cruiser the Mycon don't have sufficient engine power to argue much with the tractor.  They DO have the plasma blast, but given the Avatar's turning rate the main laser is sufficient to keep them from impacting the ship.  My runs are showing that using the laser this way isn't enough drain on the battery to make tractoring problematic.  Still, perhaps this is only 'extremely hard' rather than outright impossible.

Any shortranged ship has troubles with the Scout. You can't beat a Awesome-PC Scout without you dying too with:
 
Arilou
VERY undercrewed Chmmr
Ilwrath (the Scout doesn't even need to blow up on this one)
Undercrewed X-form (this is only hypothetical, in case the Scout battled an Easy difficulty Mmrnmhrm)
Pkunk (sometimes he reincarnates afterwise)
Undercrewed Slylandro (possibly, I never tested it)
Umgah
Undercrewed VUX

And Scout vs. Scout IS possible. You just need to get your enemy to follow you and be good with the dartgun.

1) The Arilou can teleport away before the glory device detonates.  That's one of my fun pastimes actually.
2) Agreed.
3) Agreed.
4) What about Y-form?
5) Agreed.
6) A fully crewed Slylandro will die against a Shofixti glory device.
7) Agreed.
8) Agreed.

It's quite possible to win as a Mycon against an Avatar.  You'll be able to circle indefinitely if you survive the Chmmr initially.

1.)How is this possible to work? I thought that the Glory Device deals damage immediately after you press Secondary the third time?
4.) I meant with that that when the X-form is set to Easy difficulty (cannot change forms) and undercrewed, it cannot win against a detonating Shofixti.

If you could add details please?  My mycon handling isn't very good, so tests I run with them aren't really telling what a experienced, capable person can do with them.

(48KB) http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=75BC48FA251B232F


(2927KB) http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=6A018F5176EB1A1C

Watched the video.  Very cute, smith, very cute.

I don't have a plugin for those videos.  :( But okay, I believe you, my Arilou reflexes are too sucky to do something like you did.  ;)

http://www.koepi.org/XviD-1.1.0-30122005.exe

should get you one if you are on Windows.

One of my favourite machupc from Star Control 1 is Chenjesu VS Mycon. Mycon doesn't (in my experience) stand a chance. I like Chenjesu in general since they have a long range weapon and an energy drainer. In Chenjesu VS Chrmmr, who would win?

Yesterday we get a question about whether or not the Kohr-Ah keep Talking Pets (they do) and today we get asked who would win in a fight between a Chenjesu and a Chmmr.

Is noone actually playing the game anymore?  The Chmmr ZapSats nullify the Chenjesu's secondary weapon, and the Chmmr secondary weapon makes it impossible for the Chenjesu to keep their distance, which means they're laser-bait.  It's a very short fight, every time.

In a "fair" fight the Chmmr wins, nearly every time. Even against
a good human player. Usually, the best one can do
is pound away at the Chmmr with crystal blasts, doing
a little damage before the fight's over.

Actually, the Chenjesu vs Mycon isn't so difficult for the Mycon. You need to take gravity whips often and know when to slow down. Beware DOGIs. They can really hose you if they bounce you in the wrong time. I didn't play this matchup against a human player, but it is possible to win against a computer at least.

Chenjesu vs. Chmmr:  If the Chmmr starts close to Chenjesu, it's auto win for the Chmmr. If the Chenjesu starts away at the beginning of the battle, gain some speed (assuming you're the Chenjesu) by thrusting away from the Chmmr a bit. Line up with him, turn around and start firing at him so he gets hit by full crystals. Once you get in laser range, thrust against his front and do the Ack-Ack thing against him (this will result in rapidly hitting him with full crystals instead of shards only). With luck you can kill him before he kills you.

Well, I don't see a way for Chenjesu to win if Chmmr use their tracktor beam. And, Chenjesu should be able to take out Mycon Plasmoids with their crystal shards. If we could only make Melee work atleast on LAN... THEN we could test the real power of ships.

Even for a Chmmr using the tractor beam it takes some time to get to it's opponent. You can use this time to to inflict damage upon him with full crystals. When he comes to you, you just blast away like I described in my previous post.

And on the plasmoid destruction: You need to shoot the plasmoids while the Chenjesu's turned back on you so he can't just dismiss them with full shots. If the plasmoids are shot close enough, they may pass into the Chenjesu through his ak-ak shield, dealing damage.

I have on occasion been able to cancel Chenjesu against Chmmr just based on using the photon crystals as shields against the laser. You need to be perfectly lined up for this to work, but if you can pull it off, the Chmmr go down doing only about 50% damage to the Chenjesu.