The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

After playing the good old UQM again (my favourite game of all times to this day), something struck me as odd.

The Sentient Milieu is supposedly from the same corner of the galaxy as Earth -- for example, the Taalo lived literally just a stone's throw from Sol. Also, at the end of the Dnyarri slave revolt, the Ur-Quan started enslaving/eradicating the Milieu members, until they started the Doctrinal War. So far so well. Now, the agreement was that both subspecies would travel in opposite directions around the galaxy in order to put their respective doctrines to the test, and then, when they would meet again, they would have their ritual fight for supremacy.

But... the next time they would meed would be on the other side of the galaxy! How does this work? How come the second engagement of the Doctrinal War is fought near Earth?

Even if we assume that there was some agreement that they'd pass each other by until both sides had come full circle around the milky way, then that would mean that the entire galaxy has now been eradicated by the Kohr-Ah, and there isn't actually anything left to fight over. Or did they go half-way, meet up at the other end, and then hurry back home to start the final fight?

It's not hugely important, but it just made me wonder.

The entire Milieu aren't indicated to have resided in this part of the galaxy, just the Taalo.

I think the Melnorme tell you expressly that the SM is from "this part of space", don't they? I don't have a transcript of their "information" segments, but I'm reasonably certain they said this. Even if not, it would mean that the Mael'Num world (where the Doctrinal Conflict begain) would have to lie diametrically across the galaxy from Earth... so the SM would literally be spread out over the entire galaxy?

The Melnorme say the Sentient Milieu 'spanned five hundred light years and included the membership of a hundred worlds'. They also state that the Taalo homeworld was 'one of the few Milieu worlds located in this region of space'. Given that information, it's entirely possible the Mael-Num homeworld was on the other side of the galaxy. Even if it wasn't, it's also entirely possible that the two Ur-Quan fleets did not travel around the galaxy at the same speed. The Kzer-Za had a strong fleet and the Sa-Matra at the end of the first Doctrinal Conflict, the Kohr-Ah would have had a few ships and a lot of debris.

Our galaxy is about 100,000 lightyears in diameter...

Also, the Role Playing Guide's entry for "Drall" says, "the Sentient Milieu [...] dominated the local region of space some 20,000 years ago." I would take the phrase "this region of space" from your quote to have a much narrower meaning and referring only to the visible map of SC2 (so that it'd make sense to the player why she wouldn't discover any other SM relics during her explorations).

Edit: Ah, I found the Melnorme transcript. They say, "Almost twenty-five thousand of your years ago, there existed near this region of space an association of starfaring races called the `Sentient Milieu'."

Yeah, there's another thing where there's probably a seperate 'HyperSpace galaxy' (see the original starmap here (http://www.star-control.com/files/Starmaps/01.jpg).) Basically, Hyperspace star names are not the same as TrueSpace ones (e.g. Alpha Centauri is actually a trinary system, Betelgeuse is a red supergiant, Rigel is a blue supergiant, Vela is a whole constellation, etc.) As to the Mileu dominating this region of space, you'd expect them to if one major race lives here, that doesn't mean their domination is limited to something not much bigger than SC2's starmap.

I asked this very same question not too long ago over on the star-control.com forums.  The most logical answer that was shaken out from that discussion was that the two Ur-Quan fleets just missed each other a few times as they traveled around the galaxy, and the time they met was back in (roughly) their own space.  Considering how truly wide 100,000 light years is and considering that the two fleets would have to maintain a certain degree of coherency if they're going to fight their way through any and all sentient life forms they encounter, it's not that unreasonable.  Also, keep in mind that 25,000 years is a pretty long time.  Admittedly the game is somewhat vague on exactly how long it would likely take to circumnavigate the galaxy through HyperSpace, but you'd think they could do it at least a couple times in that amount of time.

If you don't like that answer, here's another which I had thought of (and ultimately let go of after some discussion): If you allow the Kohr-Ah to win the Doctrinal War and then go talk to the Kzer-Za, they will eventually make mention of the fact that they two Ur-Quan races will now go their separate ways (with the Kohr-Ah in possession of the Sa-Matra) and continue around the galaxy until they meet AGAIN.  At which point they will fight AGAIN.  In other words, there's no real guarantee that the Doctrinal War occurring in our region of space during the game was the first one since 25,000 years ago.

Also, keep in mind that the Ur-Quan (both types) track potential target races by homing in on HyperWave broadcasts.  In theory, it's entirely possible that several sentient races have gone unnoticed simply because they hadn't reached that level of technology when the Ur-Quan passed by.  So, just because the Kohr-Ah have covered half the galaxy (or the entire galaxy, a few times over) doesn't mean the entire galaxy is devoid of sentient life.  New races will rise to power in the wake of the Ur-Quan fleet, to be eventually discovered and attacked by one or the other at a later time.  And so, the Ur-Quan Path of Now and Forever truly is forever.  It's not one quick loop around the galaxy and then home in time for tea and biscuits after a little rejuvenating scuffle with your off-coloured brothers.  It's a continuous hunt will persist until the end of time itself (or until some uppity alien captain flying an ancient Precursor tugboat with a really big bomb strapped to its spine destroys the one uber-powerful weapon you had going for you.  After that, it's apparently time to sit down and rethink your schemes for galactic domination.)

I was considering that, too. The only thing that worried me was that if the Kohr-Ar were permitted to go around the galaxy full circle at least once, they'd have annihilated all sentient life already and there'd be nothing left to fight over. But as you say, the galaxy is huge and it's entirely possible that you could go around many times and only cut out a very small cross-section. In fact, it actually makes sense in that light that they would only ever meet again in the original region of space, since that's the only common reference point they both know of and can be sure to target.



I'm pretty sure that the Melnorme say that this now is really the second meeting, with no intervening prior meetings. Anyway, the idea of this being a recurring event is appealing. It sounds like the sort of agreement they would have.



Hehe, true. Yes, no doubt that the prevailing ideology would be a permanent driving force, rather than a one-off business matter. I'm not sure what happens to the Ur-Quan without the Sa-Matra (unless you want to count SC3 as evidence!); it seems that they were doing fine enslaving and annihilating everything and everyone they encountered till now even without it... but maybe they just give up? :-) In any case, I suppose it's fair to say that they'll no longer be the dominant force in the SC2-part of space. Maybe they'll even give up the Doctrinal War, given that there's nothing left to fight over, and just go their separate ways without having settled the question who's more right.


On a side note, this is one of the many reasons I love SC2: The Ur-Quan are genuine, real aliens. They're not evil, they're just alien. Different. Not like us (with funny foreheads). They're the antagonists because their interests are incompatible with ours, but they're so alien that human morality doesn't apply to them. That just makes them all the more terrifying. SC2 is a formidable example of science-fiction entertainment done right.

Maybe they traveled something like this:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/30ti8a1.png)

You're right, they do.  That was the primary bit of evidence shaken loose in the other discussion that made me give up on my crackpot theory about multiple past Doctrinal Wars and throw in with the "they just missed each other a few times" theory.


Indeed, and i certainly don't count SC3 as evidence in this regard.  I don't want to derail this thread with ranting about SC3, but the idea that the ur-Quan just gave up and joined the Alliance after their one super-powerful ship was destroyed always bugged me.  The Ur-Quan are terrified of enslavement and perfectly capable of fighting a war without the Sa-Matra (as evidenced by the fact that they keep it in reserve unless the situation becomes truly desperate.)  Having that ship blown up might scare them, but that would only make them more dangerous in my opinion, not less.

I haven't played the P6014 demo yet (though I intend to in the near future), so we'll see what they have to say about the Ur-Quan reaction to the Sa-Matra being destroyed.

In my opinion, they most likely would retreat with whatever battle thralls they can still command and plot a counterattack against our sector of space.  Maybe, just maybe, the Kohr-Ah would even be willing to tolerate working with battle thralls - temporarily of course - until this sector was subdued.


Absolutely agree, and well said, by the way.  One of the most memorable moments of my young life was when I realized the Kzer-Za weren't just mindless overlords bent on galactic domination for its own sake.  One of the most spine-chilling moment was when I realized there was something out there WORSE than the greens. =P

This is the numbers I posted on the other board (corrected, since I made a mistake on the last one).
Since you've already stated that this is only their second meeting then that means that if they missed each other a few times he circumference of the galaxy would be less than 200 sectors.

We are not in the center of the galaxy.

Yes, quite - - I actually found this picture really amusing: It's a great example of not letting realism get into the way of a good story.  "You ask how this works? Easy: like this!" :-)

Actually, since the galaxy is rather wide in terms of its radius (50000 ly), I'm happy to believe that both races went full circle around the galaxy to come back to their original region, give or take a bit, and they just didn't meet on the way. One could have stuck to the rimward side while the other could have travelled nearer to the coreward side (and more slowly).

Indeed.  Or one could've gone over the other.  The galaxy may be flatter than it is wide, but it's not exactly flat.


To paraphrase Gene Roddenberry's famous response when asked how fast the Enterprise could go: "They travel at the speed of plot!"

I thought that was J Straczynski.

I thought I'd add something I just discovered. This one requires a spoiler warning.

The Kzer-Za give the following explanation of the consequences of a Kohr-Ah victory:


Thus we know now that 1) following the first conflict in Mael'num space, the Kzer-Za found the Sa-Matra, defeated the Kohr-Ah, kept the Sa-Matra, and the two started off on their migration; 2) SC2 takes place when the two species meet again for the first time; 3) the winner of the ritual battle will be the new guardian of the Sa-Matra, and a new migration starts, until the next meeting.

Since this is apparently supposed to happen over and over again, I suppose that it is understood that any single migration will only ever touch on a very small part of sentient life in the galaxy, and that there's no fear that any single sweep will either exterminate or enslave all life.


Actually, one thing that I don't understand fully is whether both Ur-Quan species are supposed to be entirely invincible. Do they always succeed with their doctrine? Do they never get the crap beaten out of them by a stronger adversary? Or do they just know how to avoid even stronger races? Perhaps the Ur-Quan that guard the Sa-Matra are allowed to use it and thus effectively become invincible, but the other sub-species would surely have to be a bit more careful... How come the Kohr-Ah claim to have never been defeated?

Because there isn't always someone tougher out there.

Also note that the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za came very close to failing in the war with the Alliance. If it weren't for the Sa-Matra they may well have lost, it was a rough stalemate until they pulled out the Sa-Matra.

Not really. The Alliance was loosing. Just not fast enough before Kohr-Ah arrival.

Loosing (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/loosing)? You mean the Alliance was breaking up (i.e. becoming looser)? I've never heard that expression before. :P

Well, from what Hayes says, it sure doesn't sound like things started out well for the Alliance.


But this was actually the start of a whole ten years worth of stalemate:


The Alliance didn't start to crumble until a 'dramatic shift in the balance of power' happened, presumably the final assault with the Sa-Matra:


Note that the Slave War started nearly forty years before, with the Chenjesu first picking up their signals in 2098:


It took the Ur-Quan over thirty years to conquer this sector even *with* the Sa-Matra! Now without the Sa-Matra deployment in 2134, it's easy to imagine the Alliance gradually gaining the upper hand, especially considering that the Ur-Quan ended up with some of the most useless and unstable races in this sector as battle thralls (Spathi anyone?).

The assault of the Sa-Matra was only on the Chenjesu, when the Ur-Quan had their focus on them. It was the only place the Sa-Matra was used, apparently to speed up the Ur-Quan's victory.

The assault of the Sa-Matra was only on the Chenjesu, when the Ur-Quan had their focus on them. It was the only place the Sa-Matra was used, apparently to speed up the Ur-Quan's victory.
[/quote]

The dramatic shift in power was likely more of a tactical nature, the Ur-Quan managing to whip their Thralls into goodenough order to work efficiently together and bringing more of their own forces to bear. Might even have been the arrival of more Dreadnoughts from the last sector they conquered, which had been left behind to clean up or something.

But as onpon says, it's made pretty clear that the Sa-Matra was put into play only against the chenjesy when the Alliance was already crumbling, and just used to speed the process up because the Kohr-Ah had been detected. They would have won anyway, but it would have taken time.

This suggests that the Sa-Matra was used to crack the shell, as it were, then set aside.

The evidence is conflicting.

This was always a unclear point but based on the information given from the alliance races and the battle thralls, I would suggest that the Sa-Matra was used to break the coreward front and allowed the Ur-Quan to break the lines down. The reason I don't believe the Battle Thralls were involved in that push is because several of the thralls were surprised at the sudden shift in power (Mainly the Spathi) . They were also unaware of the Sa-Matra meaning the Ur-Quan kept them out of the fight when they finally brought that ship to bear on them (most of the thralls were not even sure where the alliance races were enslaved to suggesting after the front broke, the Ur-quan left them behind)

I'd guess from the limited evidence their strategy was to quickly reduce the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm with the Sa-Matra, taking out Alliance leadership and permitting easy access to Earth and much of the Alliance's industrial capacity. The change in the balance of power along the Indi-Mira line would have been a huge strike with nearly every ship the Hierarchy had, to draw Alliance fleets away from the planned assault point, giving the Sa-Matra group a far softer target.

I don't know if i believe that they would have won anyway but I do agree the reasoning was because they detected the Kor-ah were coming.

This leads to a more interesting question though. If the Ur-Quan had not been so entrenched with their war against the alliance and had not lost so many ships...could they have won the war with the Kor-ah?

It's pretty clear they lost because of the "Blaze of Glory", not the war in general. The Yehat claim it reduced the Ur-Quan fleet by 30%. Of course, this contradicts Fwiffo's claim of "dozens" of dreadnaughts (unless the Ur-Quan fleet has only 100-200 ships, which seems kind of insane). There was a discussion about that one a while back IIRC, but I don't remember what was said.

That's somewhat ironic - had the Alliance surrendered sooner, they might have avoided complete annihilation at the hands of the Kohr-Ah (given that nobody knew about the Precursor vessel). Then again, nobody knew about the Kohr-Ah, either, until later on... and it's really lucky on the grand scheme that Earth just so happens to be at the rendezvous point of the two Ur-Quan species: had the doctrinal war been fought anywhere else, then humans would either end up annihilated, or the Precursor vessel wouldn't have got very far with the entire might of the Kzer-Za fleets concentrated on hunting it down.

That could be well over 100-200 ships, easily. 10 dozen = 120, 20 dozen = 240. These are not small numbers, and even larger ones could still quite handily be referred with the term 'dozens'.

In any fictional story there are some things you just have to accept on faith, otherwise there's no story to tell.  The fact that important things happen in the general vicinity of the heroes is one of those things.


10 dozen I'll give you.  20 dozen is getting to the point where the terms "hundreds" would be more accurate than "dozens," though, I think.  Even if Fwiffo did mean something on the order of 240 ships when he said "dozens" that still gives us a rough figure of 720-800 ships in the whole Ur-Quan fleet.  That's still not a lot for conquering a whole sector of the galaxy, let alone roaming around  enslaving everyone they find for the last 25,000 years.  (The fact that they've had 25,000 years to gather resources and build more ships makes this total figure even more ludicrous.)

Resources perhaps, but what about people? The Ur-Quan are not a civilization that enjoys the company of even it's own race. How many of the race are there? How quick do they reproduce and then mature?

I'm sure the Ur-Quan has thousands of Dreadnoughts as commented by both Hayes and the Dynarri which IMO makes them as a race that basically brute forces things down to enslavement. The fact they have cloaking technology, automated drones and other such technological things aboard their ships (plus an intricate analysis of the Sa-Matra which they man and probably studied for a long time since the end of the First Doctrinal War) shows they have a massive tech advantage. However they don't seem to be too bothered about implementing it within their own ships as the Dreadnoughts are made to be planetary siege platforms. The Ur-Quan initially attacked the Alliance weak spots, avoiding strong resistance, probably because every lost Dreadnought hurts the war effort for the Second Doctrinal War so instead I guess their tactics was for every individual Dreadnought that hams at a weak spot they also have a bunch of slaves helping out. From this, the thralls would suffer all the losses and hard work, whilst the main Dreadnought fleet remains in the home systems to enforce the Kzer-Za thralls/warm up for the Second Doctrinal Conflict. Also I guess from this the Kzer-za would grant some portions of their tech to the races that would fight for them competently but as of yet had no means of helping out (for example, giving the Ilwrath cloaking tech).

Then as we all know the Alliance resisted too well by which they could defeat the Ur-Quan stationed on the front lines and with the Kohr-Ah approaching they became desperate, so they used the Sa-Matra and pulled out the fist from the glove with their thousands of Dreadnoughts but unfortunately strayed right into the Shofixti which, upon seeing defeat from the Ur-Quan steamrolling everything blew up their sun reducing their fleet by 30%. The impression the game gives is that the Ur-Quan were really fooling the Alliance around before they just mowed everything down and then lost a massive chunk of their of fleet when they actually tried to speed up the annexing of the Alliance.

"Dozens" I think is just Fwiffo being Fwiffo, describing how the Shofixti wiped themselves out not really bothering on ship specifics (they were probably hearing about their dominance unfold being stationed away from the Sa-Matra so that might place them around the Earthling-Vux-Yehat triangle when the Delta Gorno sun blew).

I imagine the Kzer-za reproduce slowly, having territorial instincts that would force them to kill one another should two actually meet, hence the need for only one aboard a single Dreadnought which that Ur-Quan claims as his. They're also somewhat nomadic yet they all bow to Kzer-Za Lord #1 who makes the decisions apparently. I guess they can reproduce under controlled conditions, perhaps the Kzer-za have some sort of gene bank held somewhere where they can make new Kzer-za (perhaps a relic from the Dynarri's gene tinkering days) without engaging in a "violent mating ritual". I'm sure they have a strong genetic memory of sorts as well, which would explain why every Ur-Quan can feel the pain of being enslaved under the Dynarri from their parents and their grandparents..

Fwiffo could have heard a propagandized version that minimized the losses. On the other hand, "30% of the fleet" could mean 30% of that assault fleet, not 30% of all combined forces. Or it could refer to devastating losses among the thralls but merely several dozen dreadnoughts lost. So there's a lot of leeway there.

And of course it could have killed their best tactical and strategic planners.

The Yehat claimed the 30% figure, and it was stated as the Ur-Quan forces being reduced that much. They were clear that ALL the Dreadnaughts were destroyed. This is the quote:


Actually, since it talks about the entire Hierarchy fleet, it would mean that more than 30% of the Ur-Quan fleet was destroyed (since there's no mention of other races' ships having been there).

Now that i think about it. don't the Yehat mention they had over 2,000 ships in their home system ready to engage the Ur-Quan in a final battle before the queen surrendered? If that is the case, and the queen was certain they would loose the fight, exactly how many Ur-Quan ships must they have had coming to them in the end? Further, when you consider that number, how many ships must have been in the fleet in total. If they truly lost 30% of their fleet to that nova, how many ships were still in the other 70% that they could overwhelm such a massive defense fleet in Yehat space and STILL manage to keep a front on the remaining alliance powers?

Honestly, I think we in the end, we really are talking about thousands if not 10's of thousands of ships in the entire Ur-Quan fleet.

They claimed 1,000:

Those aren't going to be all Dreadnoughts though. Dreadnoughts are the Hierarchy's capital ship, the cream of the crop. The majority (say 50-70%) would have been thrall vessels. Also, at the time the Yehat were under siege, there were no other Alliance powers left in the game. The Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm, and humans were most probably slave-shielded already, the Syreen would have been in the middle of finding a homeworld, and Delta Gorno had already flared. Even 70% of the Hierarchy fleet would have been enough to eventually overwhelm the Yehat's remaining forces, though I'm sure the Ur-Quan were relieved when the Yehat surrendered - had they fought to the death there may not have been enough of an Ur-Quan fleet left to delay the Kohr-Ah past 2155.

It could easily be all Dreadnaughts. They were most concerned with ending the war quickly at this point (the whole point in bringing the Sa-Matra against the Chenjesu), and they could have viewed the Hierarchy forces as something that would slow them down (and besides, their numbers are probably insignificant compared to the number of Ur-Quan forces). Considering that they sent 30% of the entire Hierarchy fleet into Shofixti space (and it's pretty heavily implied that they were all Dreadnaughts), it wouldn't surprise me if they did the same with the Yehat.

So it does stand to reason the the Ur-Quan fleet must have been quite massive when it entered there home system as based on the tech levels of the various races. I would have said the Yehat would have been one of the only races that could have caused serious damage to a Ur-Quan fleet on it's own, even if it was pure Green boy Dreads

I don't see why the 30% needs to include "other Ur-Quan fleets" any more than Earth had to be hit by the glory device. Clearly there was a range, so even if most of the fleet was involved with the Yehat, the rest of the Ur-Quan nation, so to speak, wouldn't be.

The exact phrase was "Hierarchy war fleet". So the Yehat were talking not only of the entire Ur-Quan fleet, but the combined fleets of the Ur-Quan and all known Hierarchy races. Not only that, the Yehat made it clear that ALL dreadnaughts in the invasion force were destroyed, not 30% of it as you seem to be suggesting. The thirty percent reduction is a result of this entire force being destroyed.

Regarding the proportion of the Hierarchy fleet at Delta Gorno - I suspect the Ur-Quan were just as surprised to see the Yehat abandoning the Shofixti as the Yehat captains themselves were. They were probably expecting Delta Gorno to be the last major battle of the war (which it technically was, just not in the way they thought) which would result in the Shofixti being defeated and the Yehat fleet decisively broken, after which the actual conquest of the Yehat would be a simple mopup campaign. Under those circumstances, it makes sense to go in with a significant proportion of the fleet.

When it comes to their reaction to the destruction of the Sa-Matra - I don't think it's really easy to say for sure what they would or wouldn't do. Even more than the Yehat, the Ur-Quan have gone for millenia without any foe achieving a military victory over them apart from each other - they were the military arm of the Dnyarri slave empire, and the fall of the Milieu didn't come about through military conquest. Both paths are based upon the assumption that the Ur-Quan will be able to beat anything they encounter in a conflict of ships and weapons - and if that assumption falls down against a foe that doesn't allow them to escape, then suddenly they could be the ones facing a choice of slave-shielding, thralldom, or destruction. The destruction of their Great Prize and defeat of their fleets by an alliance might be enough of a shock to their system that, with careful diplomacy, an avoidance of any intimation that they be put into a subservient role, and possibly the reappearance of the Taalo (or at least mention of how close the Taalo came to saving them), I could see the Ur-Quan coming around to the idea of an alliance that has the strength of multiple races being potentially a better defence than domination.

Of the two, it'd probably be the Kzer-Za that are more likely to make this realisation. Partially because they have some experience with the advantages of combined-race fighting already, and partially because they seem to be that much saner on the whole than the Kohr-Ah (Not just in their eschewing xenocide - given that the Syreen are the next best thing we know to Dnyarri in terms of psychic compulsion, it's quite telling that the Kzer-Za showed them the compassion they did.

There is already a canon explanation of what (approximately) happened to the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah in the ending slideshow:

Sure, we know they were defeated by the allied fleets (and, cross-referencing with the 3DO version, were last seen "hightailing it towards the Clouds of Magellan") - my whole point is that that defeat might shock them into rethinking their doctrines. It's more a question of what could or couldn't happen afterwards.

You certainly make some good points here.  Personally, I have a hard time believing the Ur-Quan would just give up and join the Alliance because they got defeated and lost the Sa-Matra.  I would expect them to retreat, rally and possibly set aside the Doctrinal War temporarily to deal with this sector.  If the Taalo still live, however, their reappearance could go a long way to bridging the gap between the Hierarchy and the Alliance.  (And, IIRC, one of the interviews with TFB did mention that the Taalo continue to exist, in some form.)

I should mention the fact that in the Ultronomicon, it said that the Dnyarri could not compel the Taalo, so they forced the other SM races upon them. Therefore, they already came to this region of space. The Ur-Quan themselves say that they were the reason why the Taalo are no more, showing that they could keep some memory or that they found evidence of their presence where the Taalo formerly resided. Also, the Taalo were the first race to contact the original Ur-Quan.

I shall leave this to you to ponder.