The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Telecart on February 12, 2012, 11:22:41 pm



Title: Kickstarter?
Post by: Telecart on February 12, 2012, 11:22:41 pm
Did you guys see this? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure
Double Fine (makers of some great adventure games) went to kickstarter to get funding for a new adventure game, and crossed beyond their initial funding goal ($400,000) in about 8 hours. It's now over $1.6m and still has plenty of time until the fundraising deadline.

If Toys for Bob went in this route, I think they could definitely get at least as much traction!


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Alvarin on February 13, 2012, 04:36:48 am
Actually very good idea. With just one problem - they need to be given the time free of other development. Quite possible it could really generate the funds and thus show Activision true interest (and financial potential) in true SC3.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: TiLT on February 13, 2012, 01:38:33 pm
Gathering money from people to show intent to Activision? They don't care about that. In fact, if Toys for Bob were to gather the majority of their development budget independently, Activision's stake (and thus earnings) would become minimal, so why would they want to let anyone use their Star Control brand in such circumstances?

Kickstarters are great for truly independent stuff. I myself am participating in two kickstarters right now, and both have been tremendous successes. However, the keyword here is "independent". There's a very, very good reason why Double Fine isn't trying to develop a new Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango or Monkey Island, even if they would be likely to get a much larger amount of sales with a known brand.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: meep-eep on February 13, 2012, 11:27:04 pm
In fact, if Toys for Bob were to gather the majority of their development budget independently, Activision's stake (and thus earnings) would become minimal, so why would they want to let anyone use their Star Control brand in such circumstances?
Actually, all the necessary Star Control IP rights are in the hands of Paul & Fred. They explicitly kept that outside of the deal when Activision bought TFB. Only the Star Control name is not in their hands (but neither does Activision have it).


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Telecart on February 14, 2012, 12:05:37 am
Actually very good idea. With just one problem - they need to be given the time free of other development. Quite possible it could really generate the funds and thus show Activision true interest (and financial potential) in true SC3.

It's true that their schedule is probably fully booked with the skylander sequal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylanders:_Giants)...


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: meep-eep on February 14, 2012, 05:21:24 pm
They use the same engine. That sounds more like an add-on than a full-fledged sequel, with corresponding development times.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: nightshadow on February 28, 2012, 12:25:29 am
I came here today just to bring this to the table....

If TFB started a sucessful Kickstarter project for the Next "Ur-Quan Masters" (please note the deliberate absense of the Star Control brand on my speech), this could be it.

Why are we looking at the expense of developing a new UQM to be something like the new Gears of War or Uncharted? Why can't it just be a game with simple graphics (for me 2D is just fine) and a new story?

I could easily see the next UQM as a Steam "indie" like game. After the initial funding, it could sell for 10$ or something, and it would still be a huge success.

Double Fine have really hit the nail this time, and I think any producer reasonably honest about wanting to give us a sequel, should take their lead and grab this terrific opportunity.

So, I am openly supporting a kickstarter project for the next UQM... just let me pay for the damn game! :)


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Anthony on March 06, 2012, 05:17:43 am
It all goes back to "video game politics".  Is TFB allowed to work on a UQM2 side project, while respecting any contracts/agreements made with Activision?  Unless, Activision lets them work on the SC2 sequel after Skylanders: Giants, I think we may be waiting a bit longer for another announcement.

When Activision Blizzard was formed, Brutal Legend was one of the games to be cancelled, leaving Double Fine to find another publisher, Electronic Arts.  This later lead to a lawsuit between Activision and DF.  After the publishing mess was over and done with, the game was still published and received positive ratings.  After Brutal Legend, DF decided to work on smaller games that utilize digital distribution such as Costume Quest and Stacking.  They took a very huge risk and it's nice to see they are still active in the industry.  They don't seem to be bound to a specific publisher or contract.

The fact that they were able to raise over $2 million dollars from more than 69,000 people is very impressive.  Their original goal was only $400,000.  It shows that there are enough Tim Schafer fans out there that are willing to spend the cash to help them out.  The news quickly spread through all of the video game blogs, making this more popular.

If TFB started up a Kickstarter project, I would definitely support it.  UQM2 would be great as a 2D game with modern improvements and enhancements.  2D space melees are always awesome!  If Double Fine fans can unite to fund their favorite developer directly, I don't see why we can't do the same for TFB.  If TFB did use Kickstarter to collect funds, I don't know if they can achieve the overnight $1 million funding DF had.

But at the same time, we have to consider TFB's reputation in the eyes of Activision: Skylanders was successful both financially and critically.  I'm pretty sure Bobby Kotick was happy he gave them extra time to work on it.  TFB is growing as a company as they continue to hire for new positions.  It's no secret that TFB is on Activision's good side.  By that, I mean there is a small chance that Activision could someday approve a new Star Control game just like how they approved Radical Entertainment's Prototype game.  However, I still fear that Skylanders could end in a downward spiral in the future just like Guitar Hero.

I think Kickstarter is an awesome idea.  I've seen so many cool ideas there.  If TFB can somehow self-publish a Star Control game, I think they should do it!  I remember e-mailing John Graham from Wolfire Games (e.g. Overgrowth, Lugaru, Humble Indie Bundle) about his thoughts on Star Control and here's a snippet of what he said back in 2009:
Quote
"I would guess though that a company could only do so much 3rd party IP work in a row without itching to make a go at their own projects.  There’s no easy answer, but our attitude at Wolfire has always been to just go for it. Star Control III sounds like it could be pretty sweet and with the rise in online distribution, maybe TFB doesn’t need a publisher."
-John Graham, Wolfire Games
http://starcontroller.com/?p=1209


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lokik on March 13, 2012, 10:00:05 pm
I wish someone could ask Toys for Bob what are their thoughts about this idea. Looks like Kickstarter would be the only way to make the real Star Control/Ur-Quan Masters 3. I'd be more than happy to give them my money for this.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Solanacean on March 14, 2012, 02:39:12 am
Meanwhile, Brian Fargo decided to follow DFA's example by starting his own kickstarter campaign to raise money for the development of a sequel to Wasteland, the game which is considered a spiritual predecessor to the Fallout series. This is getting more and more exciting.  :)
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lokik on March 14, 2012, 03:24:07 am
Yeah, and in less than a day they have already made 50% of what they pledged for. ;D Really excited about Wasteland 2 as well.

Xenonauts, Double Fine adventure, Wasteland 2... This idea of fans funding the games they want is so sweet. Would be great to add Star Control 3 to the list...


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 14, 2012, 03:25:53 am
Would be great to add Star Control 3 to the list...

Personally, I would prefer "Star Control III" if the Star Control trademark can even be secured, just to distinguish it from a certain pile of crap. ;)


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Solanacean on March 14, 2012, 03:57:48 am
Yeah, and in less than a day they have already made 50% of what they pledged for. ;D
900 000 is the required minimum, but yeah, I'd say so far they're doing pretty good. Even though personally I'm not a huge fan of Wasteland or even the Fallout series for that matter, I'm so going to pledge. The whole 'in your face, publisher' deal is too exciting to pass up. :)

As for the sequel to Star Control 2,  I'd get a second job to help kickstart it into reality.  ;D


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 14, 2012, 04:29:18 am
I think the third sequal is cool, but the game itself has like, under 100,000 downloads. I've only ran into 2 other people in my life who have even heard of it, so I don't know if kickstarter will really do anything.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Admiral Zeratul on March 14, 2012, 06:44:05 am
Star Control 2 is a cult classic! I think it could work.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 15, 2012, 01:37:34 am
I think the third sequal is cool, but the game itself has like, under 100,000 downloads.

One has to keep in mind that the Sourceforge download statistics do not necessarily keep track of things like compilation CDs, and definitely do not record downloads through Linux package managers.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 15, 2012, 02:40:11 am
Oh yeah because people are definitely going to a store to buy an out-dated looking game.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 15, 2012, 03:01:07 am
I think you'd be surprised...

Another thing to keep in mind is gog.com downloads.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: hano on March 15, 2012, 03:48:41 am
I think this is a no brainer.

Toys for Bob, make it happen!
Wasteland 2 a sequel to even an older game collected 800,000 $ in 2 days for even an older game than SC.


There's nothing to lose, and much to gain, namely get the franchise out of the hands of the evil clutches of Activision.



Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 15, 2012, 01:15:12 pm
Actually, there is something to lose, which is that if he publicly announces the idea, another company or person could steal it, and they have way more resources.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 15, 2012, 02:19:07 pm
..."evil clutches of Activision"? Isn't that going a bit too far?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Draxas on March 15, 2012, 05:43:17 pm
No, no it's not. This is a company whose president wants to "take the fun out of videogames," if you recall.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Arne on March 15, 2012, 06:53:11 pm
I'm more worried about companies which want to put "fun" in video games at the expense of all else. There's fun and there's fun, you know. One of them displaces certain features which makes a game like SC enjoyable.

TfB owns everything but the SC Trademark, if I understand it correctly. Skylanders seems to be doing well. Perhaps if TfB decides to pursue the Kickstarter route, it could result in... financial insecurity much further down the road. Maybe Activision will get miffed.

It takes quite a bit of time and money to set up a Kickstarter project in a way which teases the prospective backers. The Double Fine Adv. and Wasteland 2 guys hired film makers, got some concept art made, set up peripheral project pages and social networking stuff, and probably had to juggle a lot of numbers to see if they could do it. While the money is pouring in, they have to stay active and engage the backers, produce more material. It's weeks of work. They were also lucky to get good PR on /. and Reddit, and after a while I suspect people will be fed up with backing sequels to old games.

While Kickstarter is great for these kind of projects, I feel a bit uneasy about the fact that up to 10% of the money goes into other pockets. It seems feasible to run that kind of service for under 1-2 million per year, but it's possible that they have a lot of lawyer/accounting costs for fraud cases and yadda yadda. Also, brand recognition and trust have kicked in so it's probably hard for others to set up a competing service. Maybe one could think of Kickstarter as a sort of retailer rather than a donation service.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 16, 2012, 12:38:34 am
Maybe if the description could be vague enough but awesome you could get people to do it, bu if you make it too vague no one is going to really know what it is, so no one will support it, and if you make it too obvious you risk getting the idea stolen.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 16, 2012, 12:43:43 am
Maybe if the description could be vague enough but awesome you could get people to do it, bu if you make it too vague no one is going to really know what it is, so no one will support it, and if you make it too obvious you risk getting the idea stolen.

You're kidding, right? TFB owns all the rights to Star Control 1/2 other than the trademark. There's no way anyone but TFB or someone with their permission can legally make a sequel to SC2 in the first place.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 16, 2012, 01:12:15 am
So change the names and images a little bit.
Besides, mods have been made for a little while now, if they really cared something would have happened. Celtic just can't make money by selling the game or claim everything is originally his, but there's nothing against random people donating money so someone can work on something. The company that made sc2 isn't even a real company anymore.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 16, 2012, 02:25:32 am
Besides, mods have been made for a little while now, if they really cared something would have happened.

Mods of The Ur-Quan Masters are not illegal. The source code was released under the GNU General Public License by TFB, meaning (in a nutshell) anyone is free to use, modify, and redistribute the program as they wish provided that they license their distributions under the GPL (give everyone else the same freedom they had). The content is under the a noncommercial license (CC-BY-NC, I think), which is nonfree, but it still allows reuse of the content as well as derivative works provided that it is for non-commercial use (which is the case for all relavent mods).

So change the names and images a little bit.

That wouldn't be a Star Control game, then, would it? It would be a completely separate space game with similar gameplay. This happens all the time in the game industry: older ideas are refined and put into new games. But last time I checked, even though there were plenty of other platformers available (many of them for free, no less!), the Mario games were still successful, even up to the most recent Mario platformer, New Super Mario Bros Wii.

The company that made sc2 isn't even a real company anymore.

Erm, yes, it is? Toys For Bob is definitely still around. It's owned by Activision.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 16, 2012, 03:23:28 am
Even if it looks different you can say it was based off the plot of sc2, and the coding can be re-used by the public as you stated, so there shouldn't be too much of problem making a new version. The game was originally for sega which was published by whatever division or company that created segas, which doesn't exist anymore. Don't say nintento because sega was made to compete with nintendo.
If you don't want to rename it then I suppose you can ask toys-for-bob for permission, and they might be lenient if it's not being sold to make money and say a max of 100,000 dollars to legally license it to celtic or whoever runs the project, which is where kick-starter might come in. Though even to do things like altering the coding for a play-station to make a game, you need to pay over 200,000 dollars, i.e before you even make a game, you need to pay to have permission to use its coding for over $200,000.

The best step right now would be to ask toys-for-bob for the licensing, it's best to tell them everything you've done with this project so they can see specifically what's needing to be licensed. There's a fair chance it will be a lot of money which is where kick-starter comes in.
What helps with kick-starter is offering rewards. So if someone donates a dollar, what do they get out of it? How about $10 or $50 or $100?
Things like that video where there's just a vague description with no reward for donation rarely work out, you have to carefully give a bit of information out or offer some rewards.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 16, 2012, 04:15:39 am
Even if it looks different you can say it was based off the plot of sc2, and the coding can be re-used by the public as you stated, so there shouldn't be too much of problem making a new version.

The races, the very thing that makes Star Control Star Control, are intellectual property of TFB, as far as I understand. There's a HUGE difference between a game based off of another game, not featuring any of the same characters, and a sequel to the same other game, continuing the same story and making use of established characters.

The game was originally for sega which was published by whatever division or company that created segas, which doesn't exist anymore. Don't say nintento because sega was made to compete with nintendo.

What game are you talking about? SEGA never had anything to do with anything Star Control. Star Control had a (crappy) port for the Mega Drive/Genesis, but that's the only connection. Star Control and Star Control II were both for DOS, and both were published by Accolade.

If you don't want to rename it then I suppose you can ask toys-for-bob for permission, and they might be lenient if it's not being sold to make money and say a max of 100,000 dollars to legally license it to celtic or whoever runs the project, which is where kick-starter might come in. Though even to do things like altering the coding for a play-station to make a game, you need to pay over 200,000 dollars, i.e before you even make a game, you need to pay to have permission to use its coding for over $200,000.

The best step right now would be to ask toys-for-bob for the licensing, it's best to tell them everything you've done with this project so they can see specifically what's needing to be licensed. There's a fair chance it will be a lot of money which is where kick-starter comes in.
What helps with kick-starter is offering rewards. So if someone donates a dollar, what do they get out of it? How about $10 or $50 or $100?
Things like that video where there's just a vague description with no reward for donation rarely work out, you have to carefully give a bit of information out or offer some rewards.

You were talking about "[risking] getting the idea stolen" before. I assumed you were making a case that it would be difficult for TFB to do a Kickstarter properly, but now you seem to be talking about how best for people other than TFB to do the sequel for TFB? I'm lost, I'm afraid.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 16, 2012, 01:26:30 pm
If they want a "sequal" that avoids any possible legal issues, change the look but keep the mechanics and just say its based off of the plot of sc2, if not ask toys for bob and use kickstarter if they want a lot of money for licensing, it's that simple. As I originally said, there is a risk that the idea could get stolen, so try not to be too obvious, but don't be too vague either or people won't know what it is. Not many people have heard of the game so if you don't be descriptive in some way or make an awesome intro, it likely won't get many donations. Rewards help with donations too.
Also, didn't accolade go under?  Even human-head makes cool games like Prey (1-2) and not many people have heard of them and they almost went under just a little while ago. It's hard to imagine a company like accolade still surviving. I'd just ask toys if you think it's a big deal to make a random fan mod that isn't even being sold to make money, which is really where the problems would come in. If your not selling it, then most likely its fine.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 17, 2012, 01:02:54 am
Why am I being used as a hypothetical example here? :/

No, no it's not. This is a company whose president wants to "take the fun out of videogames," if you recall.
Really? I don't remember anything like that, and I can't imagine how taking the fun out would do anything useful either, since that's primarily what videogames are all about.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 01:36:58 am
If they want a "sequal" that avoids any possible legal issues, change the look but keep the mechanics and just say its based off of the plot of sc2, if not ask toys for bob and use kickstarter if they want a lot of money for licensing, it's that simple.

People have been talking about the thought of Toys For Bob using Kickstarter to do a SC2 sequel themselves. They own all necessary rights to do so; all they don't have rights to is the name "Star Control", the trademark of which is owned by Atari. Why are you suggesting that someone else should do it, when that's already happening with Project 6014?

As I originally said, there is a risk that the idea could get stolen, so try not to be too obvious, but don't be too vague either or people won't know what it is.

Let me put it in bold: game ideas are absolutely, 100% completely worthless on their own, especially ideas as simple as "a sequel to an already existing game that a lot of people like". Worrying about an idea getting "stolen" is not something any smart game developer would do. It's a novice move to worry about "protecting" ideas.

Also, didn't accolade go under?

They were purchased by Infogrames, which later became Atari. Your point?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 04:06:12 am
When I say "someone should" or "you", I mean the people who are already working on the game, because anyone with a brain would know it doesn't make sense that I'm asking someone to do it when it's clearly already being worked on.
Toys for bob might have given up on it, probably they got discouraged of the low number of downloads on those sites. With this, just ask around for some licensing, if atari really still makes games somehow and is somehow surviving, then ask them too and they might not ask so much money. If they do, then ask kickstarter for help but don't be too vague or too obvious.

Also your wrong, the idea isn't worthless because my own company is planning on working on a version of it. It won't have as much character as sc2, but you'd be able to tell right away its that kind of game. Although, it was planned before I even knew project 6014 existed.
There will probably be room for differences though, I'll probably link to some download of sc2 because the games are so similar and I really like sc2 unless my sponsorship prohibits that for some reason, won't have as good of a plot I don't think.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 04:47:17 am
Toys for bob might have given up on it, probably they got discouraged of the low number of downloads on those sites.

This shows a terrible misunderstanding on your part. TFB desparately wants to make a sequel to Star Control 3; what's stopping them is Activision, which owns them.

Also your wrong, the idea isn't worthless because my own company is planning on working on a version of it.

Now I'm curious. What have you worked on in the past? Do you have a website?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 06:34:07 am
If they haven't made a squeal after all this time then someone in charge doesn't agree BECAUSE it has such a low number of "recorded" downloads. Some CEO  of activision or whatever company owns it and in a select group, they took one look at the download number and said "no way, it's not popular" or "No way, it's too old, console games and iphone games are the thing now.". It would have to be up to someone else to convince the company it's worth their time and resources to make and most companies don't take ideas from random outside people.
Besides, if you tell toy-for-bob they might end up being able to help you. Though it is unlikely,  you can give it a try but most game companies have a contract that whatever their employees work on outside of work is legally property of the company they work for, part of their contract. This is mainly so you can't compete with the company you work for. Either way
The most likely results would be "Sorry man, we can't help you, its in our contract" or "Sorry man, you can't legally work on it, only our company can and they won't do it" in which case you ask the company who owns it how much it would cost to buy the licensing, which is where you use kickstarter. The creator can decide to do a sort of renegade mod that no one will really care about anyway unless it gets tons of downloads, or rename everything, or try to use kickstarter. Maybe even try looking for adds or sponsorships if you can legally do it. Either way, someone should ask around.
Also, we may have recently formed, but you might want to think twice before questioning my validity on the subject, because I spent a lot of time working on other people's projects and getting to know various programmers and artists before it's formation, and the amount of experience I have is probably way more than you, so just drop it.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 07:27:57 am
Also, we may have recently formed, but you might want to think twice before questioning my validity on the subject, because I spent a lot of time working on other people's projects and getting to know various programmers and artists before it's formation, and the amount of experience I have is probably way more than you, so just drop it.

I wasn't making any accusations, but I see you're getting defensive. I guess that means you haven't actually worked on any sort of game design in the past? I only brought it up because you're talking like a dreaming kid, concerned about ideas being "stolen", as if ideas themselves are worth that much. All fine and dandy, but then you said I was wrong about the worthlessness of game ideas on their own because of what your company is planning? Huh? That's an argument from authority. A logical fallacy.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 17, 2012, 10:00:16 am
dath, the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

But if you think your work with other projects makes your argument stronger, the least I would require is some reference we'd be able to check.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 04:04:23 pm
dath, the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

But if you think your work with other projects makes your argument stronger, the least I would require is some reference we'd be able to check.

Madison WIsconsin: Home of Raven Software and Human-Head, various other entertainment industries and over 200,000 people, I've never needed a website, every person I work with is local, but I could reference you to prey 1 and 2 if you think I don't know anything about making games. Human-Head, the company I technically work for,  is in some turmoil and temporarily suspended many people for a month which is mostly why I can chat here, but during this time period my contract is in-valid so I am free to work on other games, which is why I formed this company. I don't want to work at human-head anymore though, so I'm going to try and get a job at google, and they don't have that contract that game companies do. If I come back to human-head I'd have to tell them about all my games I'm working on, which they wouldn't own, but they would have to make sure they were't games that would compete with theirs, because they basically own alien and viking themes, and since I want to work on a space game that I think will make a lot of money, I want to get a job somewhere else.
Also, imagine if fruit ninja or angry birds hadn't been invented yet and you had the idea? There's plenty of people who you could contact that would want to work on it and make it. Ideas are valuable, that's why people steal them. Maybe in the flash game industry there's no room for "idea guys", but if you have a good idea, you can make a lot of money.

dath, the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

But if you think your work with other projects makes your argument stronger, the least I would require is some reference we'd be able to check.
The fact that I know all of these facts that you can't possibly learn by googling should be enough, and definitely doesn't warrant rudeness.

I don't know the details of activision or whoever the hell made sc2, but someone needs to ask around, and if it costs a lot of money use kickstarter, but be careful. I don't see what's so unbelievable about that.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 17, 2012, 04:12:18 pm
I don't know the details of activision or whoever the hell made sc2

Then what are you doing posting about it?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 05:00:47 pm
I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it. If whoever's in charge wants to really go through with this, they need to ask around and try and figure out what needs to get done. It's likely that if Toys-for-bob wants to work on it but can't, then you can ask them but they are not who need's to be convinced. It seems like the people in charge don't want to make sc3 and obviously think its a waste of time and resources, so someone would likely need to just buy licensing for it. They might try to rip you off, they might say "eh what the hell, just take it", but most likely they would charge a lot of money for the licensing.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 05:07:03 pm
Madison WIsconsin: Home of Raven Software and Human-Head, various other entertainment industries and over 200,000 people, I've never needed a website, every person I work with is local, but I could reference you to prey 1 and 2 if you think I don't know anything about making games. Human-Head, the company I technically work for,  is in some turmoil and temporarily suspended many people for a month which is mostly why I can chat here, but during this time period my contract is in-valid so I am free to work on other games, which is why I formed this company. I don't want to work at human-head anymore though, so I'm going to try and get a job at google, and they don't have that contract that game companies do. If I come back to human-head I'd have to tell them about all my games I'm working on, which they wouldn't own, but they would have to make sure they were't games that would compete with theirs, because they basically own alien and viking themes, and since I want to work on a space game that I think will make a lot of money, I want to get a job somewhere else.

This says nothing about your experience in game design.

Also, imagine if fruit ninja or angry birds hadn't been invented yet and you had the idea?

Angry Birds was based off of a flash game which itself was based off of another game. Angry Birds didn't succeed because it was a super-awesome idea; it succeeded because they implemented it well (and had a little luck).

There's plenty of people who you could contact that would want to work on [Angry Birds] and make it. Ideas are valuable, that's why people steal them. Maybe in the flash game industry there's no room for "idea guys", but if you have a good idea, you can make a lot of money.

You talk like an expert, but you have this distorted vision of how game design works. It's the same vision I had back when I went by the alias "jaychant" (I was 13-14 at that time). Try searching "amber the dragon" on the Game Maker Community (http://gmc.yoyogames.com/). That was my "amazing" game idea which, predictably, no one was interested in. Of course, if I had offered to pay people, you know, real wages, probably something you're doing, they would have suddenly been interested in it (assuming I payed well). I would be, too, if someone else did the same thing.

Hey, while we're on the subject of my old ideas I had as a stupid kid, why aren't you stealing my idea of "Amber the Dragon"? After all, as you say, ideas are oh so valuable.

There was one particular idea I kept to myself. This idea was of a space exploration game where the environment is 3D and there are no cutscenes or anything taking away from the gameplay, and lots of things you can do, without any particular direction. Oh, and an MMORPG, though I didn't know of the genre at the time. Guess what was made maybe a year later? Evochron Renegades. It exactly fits the idea I had then. In other words, my idea wasn't so special after all.

I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed and to investigate the subject. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it.

The owner of everything is Toys For Bob. The owner of the name Star Control is Atari. Why do you keep acting like these are unknowns?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 05:13:38 pm
Madison WIsconsin: Home of Raven Software and Human-Head, various other entertainment industries and over 200,000 people, I've never needed a website, every person I work with is local, but I could reference you to prey 1 and 2 if you think I don't know anything about making games. Human-Head, the company I technically work for,  is in some turmoil and temporarily suspended many people for a month which is mostly why I can chat here, but during this time period my contract is in-valid so I am free to work on other games, which is why I formed this company. I don't want to work at human-head anymore though, so I'm going to try and get a job at google, and they don't have that contract that game companies do. If I come back to human-head I'd have to tell them about all my games I'm working on, which they wouldn't own, but they would have to make sure they were't games that would compete with theirs, because they basically own alien and viking themes, and since I want to work on a space game that I think will make a lot of money, I want to get a job somewhere else.

This says nothing about your experience in game design.

Also, imagine if fruit ninja or angry birds hadn't been invented yet and you had the idea?

Angry Birds was based off of a flash game which itself was based off of another game. Angry Birds didn't succeed because it was a super-awesome idea; it succeeded because they implemented it well (and had a little luck).

There's plenty of people who you could contact that would want to work on [Angry Birds] and make it. Ideas are valuable, that's why people steal them. Maybe in the flash game industry there's no room for "idea guys", but if you have a good idea, you can make a lot of money.

You talk like an expert, but you have this distorted vision of how game design works. It's the same vision I had back when I went by the alias "jaychant" (I was 13-14 at that time). Try searching "amber the dragon" on the Game Maker Community (http://gmc.yoyogames.com/). That was my "amazing" game idea which, predictably, no one was interested in. Of course, if I had offered to pay people, you know, real wages, probably something you're doing, they would have suddenly been interested in it (assuming I payed well). I would be, too, if someone else did the same thing.

Hey, while we're on the subject of my old ideas I had as a stupid kid, why aren't you stealing my idea of "Amber the Dragon"? After all, as you say, ideas are oh so valuable.

I only ever kept one idea to myself. This idea was of a space exploration game where the environment is 3D and there are now cutscenes or anything taking away from the gameplay, and lots of things you can do, without any particular direction. Oh, and an MMORPG, though I didn't know of the genre at the time. Guess what was made maybe a year later? Evochron. It exactly fits the idea I had then. In other words, my idea wasn't so special after all.

I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed and to investigate the subject. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it.

The owner of everything is Toys For Bob. The owner of the name Star Control is Atari. Why do you keep acting like these are unknowns?

I'm pretty sure I don't have a distorted view of game design, I know exactly what your saying by "you need to work on it in order for it to make money" and "there are a fw other games like it", but various successful games get "reused" all the time, and I understand that, but there are plenty of people who can steal ideas who also have the capacity to make them, and that's what makes  ideas valuable. If an idea is too much work, THEN maybe it's worthless. If you had an idea for a game that was so large you couldn't find any1 to work on it, THEN the idea is worthless because it has no capacity to be completed, but if you have an idea that could make thousands of dollars and might take only a month to complete, then its valuable, and most ideas people come up with are simple enough to be completed in logical time periods and are within range of people who have the capability to finish it even if they don't know those people.
In fact, one of my friends had an idea for a zombie adventure game but made the mistake of ONE TIME talking about the idea in public at a bar, and some lady overheard it and said something like "that sounds like a good idea, I'll see if one of my friends are interested in it", and like a month later, there's a stupid zombie adventure game that's not even as good as what he'd planned that had made a lot of money on kickstarter.
I don't care who's in-charge of licensing for using all the products, just ask them. Even if toys doesn't own the name, ask them anyway. Just ask around, but you will likely end up having to pay money for licensing, so kick-starter is a good idea, but be careful with it. I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.
It's just very likely that within the select group of people who decide to make games at toys have disagreement on it, so it's likely just not going to be done. There's probably people on that group who just plain think it's done for and there's no point bringing it back.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 06:05:51 pm
I'm pretty sure I don't have a distorted view of game design

By what you say in this post, I am 100% certain that you do. I see there's just no convincing you, though, so carry on with your delusions.

I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.

Yeah, Toys For Bob knows about SC2, but why are you acting as if it's obscure? SC2 was very well-received and has a sizable cult following.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 17, 2012, 06:41:13 pm
The fact that I know all of these facts that you can't possibly learn by googling should be enough, and definitely doesn't warrant rudeness.

And I, my grandmother and Godzilla created the universe in three days. The fact that I know this fact you can't possibly google should be enough for you to ... worship me ... so do it! Oh yes and I also know the actual rules of Frungy. At this point your validity is just as unquestionable as mine.

All I asked for is some concrete evidence of your activity, first because I'm interested, secondly because you said that your activity makes your point valid. "I could reference you to prey 1 and 2" can mean a lot of things, including keeping the floor clean while development is going on, but I don't (and didn't) make such assumptions about your experience. But hell if that was a bullseye you can send a picture with a clean floor on it, just make it obvious that it was taken at Human-Head.

I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.

Yeah, Toys For Bob knows about SC2, but why are you acting as if it's obscure? SC2 was very well-received and has a sizable cult following.

As I said:
Quote
the only people whose validity I -- personally -- wouldn't question about anything involving Star Control are called Fred Ford and Paul Reiche III.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=APV_caBjO60 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=APV_caBjO60) (17:45)


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 06:48:15 pm
Maybe the people who you trust to "design" the star control mod should be people like Celtic, but I know how the business works because I'm in that business.
I really don't think you want to have me say "I told you so" when my company finishes a successful game which can easily get a sponsorship for over 5,000 dollars that I can link to just for it looking good, and 5,000 isn't even optimistic for a very good flash game and we aren't even only working on flash games. There's people who have salaries of over 50,000 dollars off this whole flash industry who aren't even particularly famous in any way. This isn't some "dream" thing, this is if you work hard and think things through, you will make money, there's nothing particularly optimistic or dreamy about what I am saying.

I don't have a link specifically to what I worked, partly because I never needed to and partly because human head has copyright on all the art and coding, all I can say right now is the fact that I know how these things means I have some experiences, I don't know how else I could know these things because google certainly doesn't give you all this.
Do you find it illogical or completely wrong to ask toys and activision and whoever else is involved about this and use kickstarter to pay  for licensing as long as you are careful? Because otherwise your disrespect is pointless. I never asked you to worship anyone, I made a logical point that people would be wise to follow or prepare for. There is a high probability you will have to pay a large sum of money for licensing, and since it may be illegal to make a product you are currently working on, I would suggest directing kickstarter money into buying licensing if you investigate that far rather than quitting your job and getting sued. It's a small chance you would get sued only this far into the project, especially considering there's under 3,000 members. If you buy the license, depending on the license you may be able to sell the game to make money or put in adds, but that will probably make it less cool.

In the event that the original developers want to make something, they can probably re-use all the coding as was said before, but still have to buy a license to keep the name. By the video it looks like Fred and Reiche aren't directing so much energy towards star control. People like them can announce ideas publicly because they have the resources to compete with anyone who would try to steal it and have already started working on this "secret" project.
Maybe Celtic could even contact  those guys and tell them they are already working on it, and they can try and buy licensing together, or it might be possible they are already trying to save up money to buy the licensing. Either way, asking around is good idea.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 07:05:58 pm
Maybe the people who you trust to "design" the star control mod should be people like Celtic, but I know how the business works because I'm in that business.
I really don't think you want to have me say "I told you so" when my company finishes a successful game which can easily get a sponsorship for over 5,000 dollars that I can link to just for it looking good, and 5,000 isn't even optimistic for a very good flash game and we aren't even only working on flash games. There's people who have salaries of over 50,000 dollars off this whole flash industry who aren't even particularly famous in any way. I don't have a link specifically to what I worked, partly because I never needed to and partly because human head has copyright on all the art and coding, all I can say right now is the fact that I know how these things means I have some experiences, I don't know how else I could know these things because google certainly doesn't give you all this.

I'll say one more thing about game ideas; take a look at this article:

http://www.alanemrich.com/Writing_Archive_pages/Game_idea_value.htm

There are many others like this one.

There is a high probability you will have to pay a large sum of money for licensing, and since it may be illegal to make a product you are currently working on, I would suggest directing kickstarter money into buying licensing if you investigate that far rather than quitting your job and getting sued. It's a small chance you would get sued only this far into the project, especially considering there's under 3,000 members.

Project 6014 is perfectly legal. This should be easy for you to understand if you're as experienced as you're making yourself out to be. If you're not talking about P6014, what's with your mix-up of pronouns?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 07:30:19 pm
You think using darth vader and the star control logo is legal? Maybe it's not a major offense, but celtic will have trouble publishing it with those things in it, unless he has the proper licensing.
Besides, whats the point of the link you posted? People have ideas, those ideas aren't value-less, people just never put the work into making them a reality, that's it. Companies do go around to sites like kick-starter and possibly like the one you posted just to look for ideas every-so-often anyway.
What about the sound effects too? Maybe the coding is free, but if the sounds are separate wave or mp3 files which are not generated by engines within the coding of the game, that's another problem.

Start by asking everyone involved in making the game, that's the best step.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 17, 2012, 07:56:27 pm
Maybe the people who you trust to "design" the star control mod should be people like Celtic, but I know how the business works because I'm in that business.

I know how business works better because God told me, and I can give you just as much evidence about this fact than you can to me, and I have just as valid excuse not to give out any evidence as you have. You don't want me to say "I told you" when you are tortured in Hell while I'll be in Heaven and send you a picture of my 47 virgins and my 50,000 dollars.

No, I don't trust Cedric6014 to design our mod, he's one of the authority guys and I do as they say or I'm out. However I would show P6014 to PR3 and FF and let them say some last words about the project before we release it. Even then there is little to no hope for P6014 to become canon, because for a true Star Control sequel the participation of Paul Reiche III is a requirement until he dies (and don't leave a worthy successor behind). He can announce a new Star Control game because he owns everything except the "Star Control" name. The open source version is called "The Ur-Quan Masters" already, P6014 is made from the open-source, so what's your point? Who cares about the "Star Control" name? P6014 doesn't use it.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 17, 2012, 08:12:11 pm
What about the sound effects too? Maybe the coding is free, but if the sounds are separate wave or mp3 files which are not generated by engines within the coding of the game, that's another problem.

As has already been mentioned, all the UQM content (which includes all SC2 content except the 3DO videos) is available under a version of CC-BY-NC (might be CC-BY-NC-SA, I'm not sure). Meaning: they are free to use and make derivative works for non-commercial purposes.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 09:36:01 pm
Ok, so if everything you guys is saying is true, then the only things that need to happen is someone needs to ask around to see what happening which is what I've been saying this WHOLE TIME, and possibly pay for licensing for the name and a few art pieces, which is what you'd use kickstarter for. Can anyone find any flaw in that? Because I really don't see what you guys are so confused about. Every time i try to suggest something, you say there's something wrong with it which seems unclear, so then I try to change it, and still there's something wrong with it which isn't even directly pointed out.
Does anyone think it's a bad idea to ask everyone what's going on with the project and use kick starter to pay for licensing? ANd since you might need to use kickstarter, I have some advice for that, which is to try and be careful, because evidently that fred and reiche duo doesn't have enough time or resources right now to make it, or they are in a contract with a company they work for where they can't make outside games and don't want to lose their jobs.
Also, I don't see the connection between god. The only way I could know what I said I knew is if I had experience because you can't find it on google and probably not in many books, that's it. It all lines up with reality, you can ask human-head yourself if they experienced turmoil and temporarily suspended many employees and you will find the answer is yes. That is, if you really think I'm making everything up. Besides, some of what I'm saying such as with kickstarter doesn't require experience to know, it's just logical that the idea could be stolen or then if your not deceptive enough that it won't get many donations.

My advice to ask around even if you don't want to just so you can make sure, and you may have to pay a large sum of money for some licensing to keep some of the original things, that's my advice, take it or leave it, I'm done with this topic.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 17, 2012, 10:27:07 pm
Well this is an unforeseen derail. Zim, you might want to consider that not knowing how the licenses, who actually owns what material, hat companies are involved and the names of the people involved does actually make your argument a fair bit weaker. Reading up a bit before trying to argue questions like that might not be a bad idea. You're like an American lecturing Europeans on how the metric system works, and that generally doesn't end well.

Anyway, going back to the original topic about kickstarters, I'll just copy paste my answer from the SCDB here as well.

Quote
I think the main problem with this is that TFB aren't just two young guys anymore. I mean, they're two grown men with families to provide for and employees that they are responsible for. I doubt their current employer would let them just take time off to develop a competing product.

And if they do quit, then what? Beyond whatever financial hot water they land themselves as well their employees in, what happens when they finish a game that is graphically primitive by todays standards? Even if they manage to make some money, how long before it runs out? And then what? Trying to find work with another studio with a rep like that might be tricky.

I would love to see a sequel, but not at the expense of those who make it.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 17, 2012, 10:38:35 pm
Well this is an unforeseen derail. Zim, you might want to consider that not knowing how the licenses, who actually owns what material, hat companies are involved and the names of the people involved does actually make your argument a fair bit weaker. Reading up a bit before trying to argue questions like that might not be a bad idea. You're like an American lecturing Europeans on how the metric system works, and that generally doesn't end well.
I can see how that works in debates, but logic is still logic, 1+1=2 no matter what, it shouldn't matter if I knew the company that owned it pre-hand or not because any company that owns something is something you'd have to buy licensing from, and it's not hard to see that.
(P.S. I'm not debating about kickstarter itself, I'm debating about debates, so no smart-alic responses)


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Frogacuda on March 17, 2012, 11:09:54 pm
Actually very good idea. With just one problem - they need to be given the time free of other development. Quite possible it could really generate the funds and thus show Activision true interest (and financial potential) in true SC3.

It's true that their schedule is probably fully booked with the skylander sequal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylanders:_Giants)...
Eh, you're looking at this wrong. A new Star Control would need a team of like what? 10 people maybe? Toys for Bob has 75 people. They get the money up front at Kickstarter, they can hire a few new people and have their pick of who they want to work on it. It's not like it would ever be their only/primary project.

Alternately they could get someone else to develop it with them. Maybe Greg Johnson's HumaNature Studio would be appropriate. I don't know if their contracts allow them to do side projects like that, but just a thought.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 17, 2012, 11:40:17 pm
I can see how that works in debates, but logic is still logic, 1+1=2 no matter what, it shouldn't matter if I knew the company that owned it pre-hand or not because any company that owns something is something you'd have to buy licensing from, and it's not hard to see that.
(P.S. I'm not debating about kickstarter itself, I'm debating about debates, so no smart-alic responses)

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Your arguments in this case are more like stating X+Y=2 without knowing the values of either X or Y.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 18, 2012, 04:30:38 pm
Also, I don't see the connection between god. The only way I could know what I said I knew is if I had experience because you can't find it on google and probably not in many books, that's it.

Your claim of validity comes from your supposed connection to a XY company of people who are in the business, which we should believe because you supposedly know things we couldn't verify ourselves. It's just as silly as me claiming that my knowledge is better than yours because an invisible entity told me, whose existence nobody -- you included -- could verify. It's not simply argument from authority -- which is by itself a logical fallacy -- but argument from unverifiable authority -- which is then also a fine example of intellectual dishonesty. On top of that, for some reason you demand a community well infomed about the subject to accept whatever your superficial perception of generalized "logic" dictates as the capital Truth, while you constantly refuse to do the honest thing and do your research.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 18, 2012, 06:29:21 pm
You have the capability of verifying information without google. You can try looking up copyright laws in books or forums and asking human-head yourself.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 18, 2012, 07:15:48 pm
Beyond whatever financial hot water they land themselves as well their employees in, what happens when they finish a game that is graphically primitive by todays standards?
Who says the hypothetical new Star Control would be graphically primitive by today's standards?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 18, 2012, 07:32:48 pm
I don't doubt that.

But then if I have the ability to verify the information then you can as well, which invalidates your claim that your mere knowledge is proof of your involvement with the company, because on that basis anybody could make the exact same claim. I could ask for your name as a reference, however every game has credits lists anyone can freely choose from, so that method is also unreliable. Let's face it: on this forum all you are is a fake name, and you can't prove your real identity reliably, therefore your sense of validity based on your claim of identity is meaningless.

All I want to say that whoever you are doesn't matter here, no real need to look it up. The guys here know the legal status of both the Star Control trademark, the Ur-Quan Masters project and Project 6014, in fact they know it better than you do, so if you want to argue with them about this you might want to get informed before you apply some arbitrary generalization like
Quote
any company that owns something is something you'd have to buy licensing from.

Beyond whatever financial hot water they land themselves as well their employees in, what happens when they finish a game that is graphically primitive by todays standards?
Who says the hypothetical new Star Control would be graphically primitive by today's standards?

I'd say there is no such thing as "graphically primitive", only shades between good and bad quality.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 18, 2012, 08:30:18 pm
I can see how that works in debates, but logic is still logic, 1+1=2 no matter what, it shouldn't matter if I knew the company that owned it pre-hand or not because any company that owns something is something you'd have to buy licensing from, and it's not hard to see that.

But your logic is flawed dude. You're like a guy on the Xbox-live forums telling everyone that Half-Life can't be remade on their playstation network because Microprose still owns the rights to Wii controllers. And then when people tell you it doesn't work like that you just handwave, tell us you're in the game business and that you know what you're doing and why is eveone being so picky. It's not 1+1= 2 it's x^3+5-bz = sin(3). You're making incorrect arguments because of a flawed fact base, and without correct facts you rest your logical conclusion on faulty premises. Or logically, you're doing hexadecimal mathematics on a binary system.

Eh, you're looking at this wrong. A new Star Control would need a team of like what? 10 people maybe? Toys for Bob has 75 people. They get the money up front at Kickstarter, they can hire a few new people and have their pick of who they want to work on it. It's not like it would ever be their only/primary project.

Alternately they could get someone else to develop it with them. Maybe Greg Johnson's HumaNature Studio would be appropriate. I don't know if their contracts allow them to do side projects like that, but just a thought.

I don't think that's much of an option as they aren't an independently owned studio. If they were, they could decide what to work on and how many people to put on it. Sicne they aren't, the people who pay their bills get to decide what they work on. And they want work on the most profitable of things.

I'd say there is no such thing as "graphically primitive", only shades between good and bad quality.

Eh, I suppose I should have specified that I meant primitive compared to today's standards. Star Control 2 certainly has some high quality graphics considering the format and all, but I would assume that anyone who has grown up with Half-Life 2 and the likes would consider it a little old-fashioned, like we look at pong and space invaders.

And my reason for mentioning it at all is that even with that paltry kickstarter, there's no way TFB is going to be able to churn out ME3 level graphics without a lot more resources than the kickstarter brings.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 18, 2012, 10:04:46 pm
I'd say there is no such thing as "graphically primitive", only shades between good and bad quality.

Star Control II is graphically primitive because of:

  • Low resolution
  • No lip-synching
  • Only 16 ship angles

Graphically primitive doesn't make a game bad (heck, doesn't even make the graphics bad), but it does make it look old ("retro", if you prefer). Of course, though, SC2 is old, and it's plain silly to assume that a sequel made today would be as graphically primitive as SC2.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 18, 2012, 10:10:13 pm
Yeah, even if they were to reuse the same engine I'd assume they would do things like increasing the resolution and animation frame counts and stuff like that, and that's probably sufficient to take it out of the "graphically primitive" area.

Of course, they'd be more likely to make a new engine, I think.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 18, 2012, 11:05:54 pm
Yeah, even if they were to reuse the same engine I'd assume they would do things like increasing the resolution and animation frame counts and stuff like that, and that's probably sufficient to take it out of the "graphically primitive" area.

Of course, they'd be more likely to make a new engine, I think.

p6014's done this already. The hires modes aren't 'graphically primitive' (only serious problem is the 16 angle limitation), and it was done by about a half-dozen programmers and artists working with a 20-year-old engine in their spare time.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 19, 2012, 11:10:53 pm
I realize P6014 has already done it. :P


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 20, 2012, 03:07:30 am


But your logic is flawed dude. You're like a guy on the Xbox-live forums telling everyone that Half-Life can't be remade on their playstation network because Microprose still owns the rights to Wii controllers. And then when people tell you it doesn't work like that you just handwave, tell us you're in the game business and that you know what you're doing and why is eveone being so picky. It's not 1+1= 2 it's x^3+5-bz = sin(3). You're making incorrect arguments because of a flawed fact base, and without correct facts you rest your logical conclusion on faulty premises. Or logically, you're doing hexadecimal mathematics on a binary system.



I fail to see how my advice is flawed. Perhaps some of the facts on the history of star control were wrong, but what I had been saying wasn't illogical, and I did not base my advice directly off of the history of the game, I based advice off of what I experience I have doing the same thing. That experience also wasn't coming just from me, but from other people whom I have also worked with. In their own troubles, they also had to figure out solutions to the same problems, and I tried passing on what had been learned.
There likely are legal issues that need to be solved project 6014 be fully published, but then again, it's possible it doesn't need to be...


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 22, 2012, 09:47:46 pm
Your advice is flawed because it's based on the false conviction that your arbitrary "logic" is a viable substitute of actual information that is needed to make a sane point regarding the legal issues behind any Star Control related product.

Project 6014, when completed, will be released according to the combined terms of GPL (code) and CC-BY-NC-SA (content). It seems both grant us the ability to produce derivative works but doesn't allow us to make profit out of it, which never -- as far as I know -- was our intention.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 22, 2012, 10:28:18 pm
GPL (code) and CC-BY-NC-SA (content). It seems both [...] doesn't allow us to make profit out of it

To clarify: that particular statement only applies to CC-BY-NC-SA (content), not the GPL. I'm guessing you know this, Kwayne (based on your wording; using "doesn't" instead of "don't"), but your wording makes it sound like the "no profit" part applies to both licenses. ;)


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 22, 2012, 10:48:04 pm
Your advice is flawed because it's based on the false conviction that your arbitrary "logic" is a viable substitute of actual information that is needed to make a sane point regarding the legal issues behind any Star Control related product.

Project 6014, when completed, will be released according to the combined terms of GPL (code) and CC-BY-NC-SA (content). It seems both grant us the ability to produce derivative works but doesn't allow us to make profit out of it, which never -- as far as I know -- was our intention.
I'm pretty sure what I had said was to ask around, and if there was licensing issues then you use kickstarter, which to me does not sound illogical.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 23, 2012, 08:03:59 am
GPL (code) and CC-BY-NC-SA (content). It seems both [...] doesn't allow us to make profit out of it
To clarify: that particular statement only applies to CC-BY-NC-SA (content), not the GPL. I'm guessing you know this, Kwayne (based on your wording; using "doesn't" instead of "don't"), but your wording makes it sound like the "no profit" part applies to both licenses. ;)

Good catch! Since my concerns are revolving around creative commons, I wasn't sure about GPL, that's why I referred to the "combined" terms of both licenses. What's important is if one makes a Star Control game with all the characters, the only people who could make money out of it is TfB. I wonder though: when PR3 bought back the content license, did it include the SC3 races as derived work? Might be worth asking.

@dath: nobody said that being careful and asking around by itself is a bad advice, however your explanation of why we should do it is hard to be taken seriously.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 23, 2012, 10:49:02 pm

@dath: nobody said that being careful and asking around by itself is a bad advice, however your explanation of why we should do it is hard to be taken seriously.

In a completely unrelated topic, a week ago my friend literally looked up many songs under the creative commons attributions license to use for our game, and he personally emailed all the creators and told them what we wanted to use their songs for just to be sure, and despite the fact that they put up the song under a creative commons attributions  license but STILL some of them said that we would not be able to use their songs and some said we would have to pay them. I think it's worth it. Because of this we know specifically what songs in our list that we can't use.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 24, 2012, 01:40:33 am
In a completely unrelated topic, a week ago my friend literally looked up many songs under the creative commons attributions license to use for our game, and he personally emailed all the creators and told them what we wanted to use their songs for just to be sure, and despite the fact that they put up the song under a creative commons attributions  license but STILL some of them said that we would not be able to use their songs and some said we would have to pay them. I think it's worth it. Because of this we know specifically what songs in our list that we can't use.

I'm sorry, do you really have so little idea of how copyright works that you're honestly falling for that? If you have obtained a work under the CC-BY license, you get to use it under those terms. The copyright owner has no power at that point to turn around and say "no" or "you have to pay us first".


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 24, 2012, 02:36:16 am
In a completely unrelated topic, a week ago my friend literally looked up many songs under the creative commons attributions license to use for our game, and he personally emailed all the creators and told them what we wanted to use their songs for just to be sure, and despite the fact that they put up the song under a creative commons attributions  license but STILL some of them said that we would not be able to use their songs and some said we would have to pay them. I think it's worth it. Because of this we know specifically what songs in our list that we can't use.

I'm sorry, do you really have so little idea of how copyright works that you're honestly falling for that? If you have obtained a work under the CC-BY license, you get to use it under those terms. The copyright owner has no power at that point to turn around and say "no" or "you have to pay us first".

Fall for what? You think I'm lying? Are you arguing that the owner has no power over what they have created just because they posted some random thing on an unofficial website (kind of reminds me of something else...)


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 24, 2012, 03:05:44 am
Fall for what? [...] Are you arguing that the owner has no power over what they have created just because they posted some random thing on an unofficial website (kind of reminds me of something else...)

Erm, yeah, that's kind of how it works. It's kind of, you know, a legally binding agreement. They have already released the work and agreed to allow you (and anyone else) to use the work under the terms set by the respective license.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Death 999 on March 24, 2012, 11:00:52 am
There is no CC license where it says 'if the author says so' because you could always do that even if the work was 'all rights reserved'.

It's not for nothing that major corporations use restrictive terms rather than CC licenses!


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 24, 2012, 10:55:40 pm
Fall for what? [...] Are you arguing that the owner has no power over what they have created just because they posted some random thing on an unofficial website (kind of reminds me of something else...)

Erm, yeah, that's kind of how it works. It's kind of, you know, a legally binding agreement. They have already released the work and agreed to allow you (and anyone else) to use the work under the terms set by the respective license.

So if that's true, I should be able to upload someone else's song like Eminem or Lady-Gaga under a CC license and other people would be able to use it for free, just because some website says so.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 25, 2012, 12:26:46 am
No no no no, that only works if the author uploads it and slaps the CC label on it. If you upload it and try to slap the CC label on it, that's not allowed.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 25, 2012, 12:29:14 am
Fall for what? [...] Are you arguing that the owner has no power over what they have created just because they posted some random thing on an unofficial website (kind of reminds me of something else...)

Erm, yeah, that's kind of how it works. It's kind of, you know, a legally binding agreement. They have already released the work and agreed to allow you (and anyone else) to use the work under the terms set by the respective license.

So if that's true, I should be able to upload someone else's song like Eminem or Lady-Gaga under a CC license and other people would be able to use it for free, just because some website says so.

Are you really that dim?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 25, 2012, 03:41:06 am
The CC licenses (or GPL, BSD, etc) are all just as legally binding as any other license - assuming the actual copyright holder released the work in question. If a work has been (genuinely) released under some free(ish) license, there is *no reason* (other than personal courtesy, perhaps...) you would need to so much as ask to use it, much less pay. Now, if some joker forged it (not an issue in the case of UQM) that's entirely different.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 25, 2012, 03:39:16 pm
My uneducated guess would be that when someone forge a false license claim, the weight of legal responsibility is on him/her. So if the CC license on UQM content is just some prank, it's the worst kind of prank because it only backfires with costly repercussions, without -- say -- the P6014 team being responsible because we only followed the (fake) license terms in good faith.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 25, 2012, 09:38:01 pm
Fall for what? [...] Are you arguing that the owner has no power over what they have created just because they posted some random thing on an unofficial website (kind of reminds me of something else...)

Erm, yeah, that's kind of how it works. It's kind of, you know, a legally binding agreement. They have already released the work and agreed to allow you (and anyone else) to use the work under the terms set by the respective license.

So if that's true, I should be able to upload someone else's song like Eminem or Lady-Gaga under a CC license and other people would be able to use it for free, just because some website says so.

Are you really that dim?

I should be asking you that if you think that's true...

My uneducated guess would be that when someone forge a false license claim, the weight of legal responsibility is on him/her. So if the CC license on UQM content is just some prank, it's the worst kind of prank because it only backfires with costly repercussions, without -- say -- the P6014 team being responsible because we only followed the (fake) license terms in good faith.

Even if a majority of the things are legal, there could easily be some things that aren't, like maybe the game got a few pieces of data from a different company who's employee was in the credits, etc.
Regardless, its still logical to ask around to make sure about everything.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 26, 2012, 02:02:50 am
Even if a majority of the things are legal, there could easily be some things that aren't, like maybe the game got a few pieces of data from a different company who's employee was in the credits, etc.
Regardless, its still logical to ask around to make sure about everything.

The thing is that Accolade/TFB *did* all that well over a decade ago. UQM has operated under the current licensing system for about ten years now, with TFB's explicit permission and encouragement, under the GPL and CC-BY-SA-NC. If there were legal issues, we'd know already.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 26, 2012, 02:23:27 am
So if that's true, I should be able to upload someone else's song like Eminem or Lady-Gaga under a CC license and other people would be able to use it for free, just because some website says so.

Are you really that dim?

I should be asking you that if you think that's true...

I don't. Any idiot can recognize that there's a HUGE difference between content being licensed by its creator and content being "licensed" illegally by someone else without the creator's permission. You can't though, apparently, given that you were saying that it is exactly the same thing for the author of a work to license something under a CC license and for you to "license" one of Eminem's songs under a CC license.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 26, 2012, 05:35:14 am
Even if a majority of the things are legal, there could easily be some things that aren't, like maybe the game got a few pieces of data from a different company who's employee was in the credits, etc.
Regardless, its still logical to ask around to make sure about everything.

The thing is that Accolade/TFB *did* all that well over a decade ago. UQM has operated under the current licensing system for about ten years now, with TFB's explicit permission and encouragement, under the GPL and CC-BY-SA-NC. If there were legal issues, we'd know already.

Do you have a link to a website with all of the copyright of all of the files in the game? Because theoretically, you even if the coding was copyrighted in some way, some loopholes could still consider your altercations not the original coding as long as you re-make it yourself, because you can't really copyright physics, and if you happen to be using the same program to legally make the game, then I guess tough. It can go bad on either end, whether its the copyrighted side or the supposedly completely free in every way side. There's many loop-holes and the guys that created this series might be mad that someone else is making it for them and try to find a loop-hole to get it taken down...


So if that's true, I should be able to upload someone else's song like Eminem or Lady-Gaga under a CC license and other people would be able to use it for free, just because some website says so.

Are you really that dim?

I should be asking you that if you think that's true...

I don't. Any idiot can recognize that there's a HUGE difference between content being licensed by its creator and content being "licensed" illegally by someone else without the creator's permission. You can't though, apparently, given that you were saying that it is exactly the same thing for the author of a work to license something under a CC license and for you to "license" one of Eminem's songs under a CC license.

So are you saying that if the artist does not give permission, the CC license doesn't apply?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 26, 2012, 01:43:40 pm
Are you really that dim?

I should be asking you that if you think that's true...

I don't. Any idiot can recognize that there's a HUGE difference between content being licensed by its creator and content being "licensed" illegally by someone else without the creator's permission. You can't though, apparently, given that you were saying that it is exactly the same thing for the author of a work to license something under a CC license and for you to "license" one of Eminem's songs under a CC license.

So are you saying that if the artist does not give permission, the CC license doesn't apply?

Are you deceptive or just stupid? An infant could understand this simple concept. The CC license does apply if it was applied legally. It only fails to apply if it was originally applied by someone other than the copyright owner without the copyright owner's permission. If you actually want to learn how copyright works, do some research or ask a lawyer and stop pretending you know already.


Do you have a link to a website with all of the copyright of all of the files in the game? Because theoretically, you even if the coding was copyrighted in some way, some loopholes could still consider your altercations not the original coding as long as you re-make it yourself, because you can't really copyright physics, and if you happen to be using the same program to legally make the game, then I guess tough. It can go bad on either end, whether its the copyrighted side or the supposedly completely free in every way side. There's many loop-holes and the guys that created this series might be mad that someone else is making it for them and try to find a loop-hole to get it taken down...

Physics are an idea, not an expression. They can't be copyrighted. There's no loopholes in the copyright of the UQM source code either. It's licensed under the GNU General Public License, clear and simple. If there are any loopholes, it's in the GPL, and good luck finding one. You'll need a professional lawyer, by the way, and he'll probably tell you, "Nope, I see no exploitable loopholes here." Being able to completely re-make the engine is not a "loophole". Are you a programmer? I get the feeling you're not. Do you have any idea how much work it is to re-do everything from scratch, especially for something as big as SC2? Try looking up Netscape 6. Completely re-writing the source from scratch pretty much killed Netscape. Now, games are a bit different since you usually re-write quite a lot anyway (since you don't just make mods of existing games all day), but it gives an idea of how silly it is to call the ability to start coding from scratch a "loophole".


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 27, 2012, 01:46:27 am
Do you have a link to a website with all of the copyright of all of the files in the game? Because theoretically, you even if the coding was copyrighted in some way, some loopholes could still consider your altercations not the original coding as long as you re-make it yourself, because you can't really copyright physics, and if you happen to be using the same program to legally make the game, then I guess tough. It can go bad on either end, whether its the copyrighted side or the supposedly completely free in every way side. There's many loop-holes and the guys that created this series might be mad that someone else is making it for them and try to find a loop-hole to get it taken down...

Again, UQM and p6014 operate with the express approval and encouragement of Fred and Paul, the copyright holders and creators of Star Control. Who do you think is going to find these (imaginary) loopholes?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 27, 2012, 02:39:36 am
Most CC licenses aren't a formal contract, it only applies as long as the creator wants. It's not "oh no, I issued it on some random website under an unofficial CC license one time, now I will never get it back!!!". It's not even that way with many real contracts. If people involved in making the star control series don't want this project to happen without some kind of compensation, it would be wise to not challenge them and take it to court.
What do you think happens if suddenly the creators find out about this project and then takes the coding off the unofficial license because they want to do it themselves? DO you think just because it "use" to be under some unofficial license that they are powerless?

It is a lot of work to do everything from scratch, that's one of the main issues when working with a programmer since some things just take too much time. Also, I didn't say that there definitely were loopholes, but neither of us are lawyers, and the companies involved probably have way more resources.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Death 999 on March 27, 2012, 02:53:56 am
First off, learn how to quote.

Second of all, you are severely misinformed - see what Creative Commons has to say about revoking the license:

http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_if_I_change_my_mind.3F

Short version: You can decide to stop offering it CC, but anyone who got it CC is not bound by any new restrictions you choose to put on it, so long as they don't mind following the restrictions of the CC license.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 27, 2012, 03:13:50 am
neither of us are lawyers

Not a particularly useful statement when just about everything you're saying is thoroughly refuted on the sites of the creators of these licenses, namely the Free Software Foundation and Creative Commons. In FAQs, for crying out loud.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 27, 2012, 03:26:26 am
First off, learn how to quote.

Second of all, you are severely misinformed - see what Creative Commons has to say about revoking the license:

http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_if_I_change_my_mind.3F

Short version: You can decide to stop offering it CC, but anyone who got it CC is not bound by any new restrictions you choose to put on it, so long as they don't mind following the restrictions of the CC license.

neither of us are lawyers

Not a particularly useful statement when just about everything you're saying is thoroughly refuted on the sites of the creators of these licenses, namely the Free Software Foundation and Creative Commons. In FAQs, for crying out loud.

I don't know what to tell you guys, there's some emails from creators of music that say otherwise. It doesn't really make sense that the creator would have no control over it, especially because it's not a formal contract with any signature.
I'll try asking a lawyer I do know, just to make sure.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 27, 2012, 07:57:24 am
A guess of mine is that nowadays written signatures can be replaced by registration data, as long as it's trackable and can be used as evidence in a court case.
CC I think is not just not a formal contract, it's not a contract at all. Yet still it's a viable legal expression and everyone making a legal expression is personally responsible for it.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Valos Cor on March 27, 2012, 01:20:38 pm
I don't have a lot of time right now but...

Dude, you can't just suddenly post and act all rude by demanding respect because you have experience in game design, or know how this works.  If you want higher respect than other people get because you're a developer, then EARN it.  It's not like these guys ignore everyone they don't revere, but seriously, to come in and say "I know what you possibly cannot know via Google" isn't grounds for respect.  A lot of people know what cannot be found by Google, and Google also knows a lot.  I'm sure a lot of what you learned can be found SOMEWHERE on the World Wide Web.  To call Human Head for verification?
"Human Head dudes, there's this guy that says he works for you, he calls himself dathinvaderzim.  Do ya'll know him?"
"Uh...no."
"Oh, okay."
Even if you told us a name, who's to say that that dude isn't in Antarctica feasting on roasted lichen and you're just a fake?

Also, you may have heard otherwise from the emails of creators of music,but that's all that it is.  An email.  That says "I want you to pay me first."  It has no legal power if the author has released it to the public already.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 27, 2012, 02:02:05 pm
I don't have a lot of time right now but...

Dude, you can't just suddenly post and act all rude by demanding respect because you have experience in game design, or know how this works.  If you want higher respect than other people get because you're a developer, then EARN it.  It's not like these guys ignore everyone they don't revere, but seriously, to come in and say "I know what you possibly cannot know via Google" isn't grounds for respect.  A lot of people know what cannot be found by Google, and Google also knows a lot.  I'm sure a lot of what you learned can be found SOMEWHERE on the World Wide Web.  To call Human Head for verification?
"Human Head dudes, there's this guy that says he works for you, he calls himself dathinvaderzim.  Do ya'll know him?"
"Uh...no."
"Oh, okay."
Even if you told us a name, who's to say that that dude isn't in Antarctica feasting on roasted lichen and you're just a fake?

Also, you may have heard otherwise from the emails of creators of music,but that's all that it is.  An email.  That says "I want you to pay me first."  It has no legal power if the author has released it to the public already.

At first I wasn't being rude at all, in fact I was even going to help, THEN people started being rude to me so THEN I started bringing in game design. I don't need to earn anything, this is a forum website for an apparently failed game series. Any suggestions should be helpful at this point.


A CC license isn't that traceable anyway. What are they going to do? Ask me what my account name is? The most extreme they might do is go to goggle and see what hits came up at what ip adress, but I easily could have manually changed it by then.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 27, 2012, 03:39:37 pm
I don't need to earn anything, this is a forum website for an apparently failed game series. Any suggestions should be helpful at this point.

That's your problem? You think that UQM is so pathetic that anything can help? What planet are you from? No, scratch that, what reality are you from? How can you call Star Control II, a game which had great critical reception and is one of the very few games from 20 years ago that has a cult following, failed? What kind of absurdly high threshold for success is that?


Quote
At first I wasn't being rude at all, in fact I was even going to help, THEN people started being rude to me so THEN I started bringing in game design.

Sir, I saw no one being rude to you except for myself, and I only started being rude a couple posts ago.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 27, 2012, 04:24:33 pm
@dath: *sigh* well yeah, most probably court investigations have their resources limited to google ... and your IP history isn't recorded ... and your hardwares have no serial numbers ... and your hardware info isn't submitted to the internet ... and your hardware purchases aren't recorded ... and your friend who bought the hardware for you won't tell your address to the FBI when they tell him/her how many years of jail sentece goes for someone obstructing authorities and assistance in piracy.
I don't say the information infrastructure is perfect, but your underestimating attitude would never make you a successful pirate.

Reading this thread all I see is you desperately clinging to your immature idea that no matter what, you are right and everybody else is wrong.
You may have tried to help, but performed it in a way that looked mostly like arrogant smartassing about something you obviously know nothing about. When people try to inform you, your response is stubborn resistance, insulting others intelligence by dishonestly playing the fallacy by authority card, and insisting that anecdotes from your unknown colleagues and e-mails are somehow viably supporting your claims -- about which you already think that they are a matter of some unquestionable "logic".
On top of that you insult the fan community by belittling their favourite subject, and saying that in this community you are the exceptional one who doesn't need to earn his share of respect, unlike people here who earned it with actual contribution to either UQM or P6014, or people who are bipedal ultronomicons following Star Control along it's more than two decades of existence.

You do this and more to piss off people around here, yet you're the one whining about them being disrespectful and rude with you -- even if what you get can only be accounted as a minor scolding. I advise you grow some thick skin if you don't plan to grow up soon.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 27, 2012, 08:13:18 pm
I fail to see how my advice is flawed. Perhaps some of the facts on the history of star control were wrong, but what I had been saying wasn't illogical, and I did not base my advice directly off of the history of the game, I based advice off of what I experience I have doing the same thing. That experience also wasn't coming just from me, but from other people whom I have also worked with. In their own troubles, they also had to figure out solutions to the same problems, and I tried passing on what had been learned.
There likely are legal issues that need to be solved project 6014 be fully published, but then again, it's possible it doesn't need to be...

So I don't often do this kind of stuff anymore, but I've got some spare time after wrapping up a major project. so on the off chance that you aren't trolling here's a helpful guide to your posts in this thread, why their logic is flawed and why no one is taking you seriously. There's some reading ahead, so buckle up!

We first join you on page 2 of this thread where you don't think anyone is going to buy such an out-dated game (http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5193.msg68779#msg68779). Which is fine if you ignore the fact that no one is talking about a resolution exact copy of UQM, but of  asimpler modern game rather than a 3D superfest. But that's okay, it's easy to get lost when people talk about 2D graphics and not realise that they don't actually mean 320*280. But then we get this.

Actually, there is something to lose, which is that if he publicly announces the idea, another company or person could steal it, and they have way more resources.

Which makes no sense at all. At this point these is no "he", since we're talking about the company TFB which at bare minimum means two people. So either you're already marching to a different drum than us or you don't know enough to distinguish between a company name such as Toys For Bob and a person. That doesn't really inspire confidence. To add, you seem to be implying that someone might steal the idea "We want to make a sequel to a series where we own the rights to al lthe content". Which kinda makes no sense at all. When Bungee went out and said "We'll do Halo2" it's not like anyone else could ever beat them to the punch. Cause, you know. They own the content. So that's a bit embarrassing. but then you continue with.

Maybe if the description could be vague enough but awesome you could get people to do it, bu if you make it too vague no one is going to really know what it is, so no one will support it, and if you make it too obvious you risk getting the idea stolen.

After this we get sort of a recurring theme in the thread where people point out that the guys we want to do this already own the content and can't have it stolen. Which you ignore and/or misunderstand every time it is brought up. I mean, look at your very next post.

So change the names and images a little bit.
Besides, mods have been made for a little while now, if they really cared something would have happened. Celtic just can't make money by selling the game or claim everything is originally his, but there's nothing against random people donating money so someone can work on something. The company that made sc2 isn't even a real company anymore.

Let's count the flaws here.
One - We don't need to change names and mages because the entire topic is about that the content owners should apply for the money and do this. So nothing in the argument makes any sense whatsoever.
Two - The content owners have specifically licensed the game code and content in a fashion that allows for the making of mods. they've publicly endorsed the mods made.
Three - The mods don't matter since we weren't talking about them
Four - You got the name of the maker of the mod wrong, which shows that you're pretty clueless about it.
Five - Cedric hasn't tried selling anything or claiming that it is his, that's not the point of the mod. It's not a commercial venture who would he even sell it too when it's publicly available on sourceforge.
Six - "The company that made sc2" is such a ridiculous concept that it means nothing. The studio that made it still exists and owns all the content. that's TFB, the guys we want to apply for the kickstarter. Remember, the thread title? And even though the company that owns them doesn't exist, it doesn't matter since ti is well known who owns the rights to the name Star Control and they've shown that they are interested in keeping them.

So in four sentences you manage six major cock-ups not only on what the thread is about, but on who owns what, how the mods actually work to what purpose they are made.

You also get into a ridiculous argument with onpon4 about ideas being stolen. An argument that seems wholly based on your lack of knowledge as to who is doing what and what is being suggested by whom. It sounds as if you are arguing for Cedric being careful with his idea for a new game that he will apply for money for, which is so far from the thread title that it is depressing.

And I mean, sure. If you've come up with a whole revolutionary new genre the likes of which has never been seen before, that might apply even somewhat. But in the context of the current discussion of "We want the content owners to make a sequel to their game" the whole thing is just dead weight.  I mean look at this:

When I say "someone should" or "you", I mean the people who are already working on the game, because anyone with a brain would know it doesn't make sense that I'm asking someone to do it when it's clearly already being worked on.
Toys for bob might have given up on it, probably they got discouraged of the low number of downloads on those sites. With this, just ask around for some licensing, if atari really still makes games somehow and is somehow surviving, then ask them too and they might not ask so much money. If they do, then ask kickstarter for help but don't be too vague or too obvious.

Also your wrong, the idea isn't worthless because my own company is planning on working on a version of it. It won't have as much character as sc2, but you'd be able to tell right away its that kind of game. Although, it was planned before I even knew project 6014 existed.
There will probably be room for differences though, I'll probably link to some download of sc2 because the games are so similar and I really like sc2 unless my sponsorship prohibits that for some reason, won't have as good of a plot I don't think.

I'm not counting the flaws for you again but they're all there. You live in a fairytale world where we have to ask around to find out who owns the licensing in case there still is licensing, because obviously UQM just sprang out of the ground without being granted code and content by those very content owners. then there's some blaha on how you're making a "sc2 styled game" which no one is paying attention to because if you're applyingthe same logic to game design as you are to research or even reading then your game is pretty much toast. "It'd be that kind of game" where you fly spaceships and meet aliens huh? Best gaurd that idea before somone steals it!

If they haven't made a squeal after all this time then someone in charge doesn't agree BECAUSE it has such a low number of "recorded" downloads. Some CEO  of activision or whatever company owns it and in a select group, they took one look at the download number and said "no way, it's not popular" or "No way, it's too old, console games and iphone games are the thing now.". It would have to be up to someone else to convince the company it's worth their time and resources to make and most companies don't take ideas from random outside people.
Besides, if you tell toy-for-bob they might end up being able to help you. Though it is unlikely,  you can give it a try but most game companies have a contract that whatever their employees work on outside of work is legally property of the company they work for, part of their contract. This is mainly so you can't compete with the company you work for. Either way
The most likely results would be "Sorry man, we can't help you, its in our contract" or "Sorry man, you can't legally work on it, only our company can and they won't do it" in which case you ask the company who owns it how much it would cost to buy the licensing, which is where you use kickstarter. The creator can decide to do a sort of renegade mod that no one will really care about anyway unless it gets tons of downloads, or rename everything, or try to use kickstarter. Maybe even try looking for adds or sponsorships if you can legally do it. Either way, someone should ask around.
Also, we may have recently formed, but you might want to think twice before questioning my validity on the subject, because I spent a lot of time working on other people's projects and getting to know various programmers and artists before it's formation, and the amount of experience I have is probably way more than you, so just drop it.

Look at yourself suggesting that we ask TFB for help when in fact the thread title is about how TFB should apply for this kickstarter. But somewhere on the way you lost that and now you think we're making a fan based game for profit. Better go to Atari with all that kickstarter money and buy the license we've repeatedly told you that TFB owns so that we can make the game then!

At this point you drag up the fact that you are an experienced game designers without any credentials whatsoever and that your opinion on the internet therefore trumps other opinions. since you've so far not managed to make a single post that is not completely confused as to

- The topic of conversation
- Who owns what
- What P6014 is for and about both legally and practically

No one is takingyou seriously. But hey, keep tellign us about how you know things that can't be googled and how that proves that you know absolutely nothing about the topic at hand. That'll boost our confidence in you. Especially since you keep right on.

I don't care what specific company made sc2 unless they no longer exist because in that case there isn't much that is still owned, I'm trying to make a point about investigating it and using kick-starter not to work on it, but to pay for licensing if needed. For all I care superhappyunicornpotatoes.inc could have made it. If whoever's in charge wants to really go through with this, they need to ask around and try and figure out what needs to get done. It's likely that if Toys-for-bob wants to work on it but can't, then you can ask them but they are not who need's to be convinced. It seems like the people in charge don't want to make sc3 and obviously think its a waste of time and resources, so someone would likely need to just buy licensing for it. They might try to rip you off, they might say "eh what the hell, just take it", but most likely they would charge a lot of money for the licensing.

Again full of the same oldtired flaws. Whoever's in charge of something needs to ask the possible owners of the content for permission. Just possibly you're still talking about P6014 and the answer is the same as always THE CONTENT OWNERS ARE WELL AWARE AND THIS MOD IS FULLY LICENSED AND THE DISCUSSION TOPIC WAS ON IF THE CONTENT OWNERS COULD APPLY FOR THE KICKSTARTER. Seriosuly, how can you not have made the connection by now. it's like you're just pushing through, reading nothing and just spewing out the same opinion over and over again. It's fine to be uniformed once, but you keep repeating it over and over like some possessed version of Groundhogs day.

Also, what in the blazes is this?

Quote
n fact, one of my friends had an idea for a zombie adventure game but made the mistake of ONE TIME talking about the idea in public at a bar, and some lady overheard it and said something like "that sounds like a good idea, I'll see if one of my friends are interested in it", and like a month later, there's a stupid zombie adventure game that's not even as good as what he'd planned that had made a lot of money on kickstarter.
I don't care who's in-charge of licensing for using all the products, just ask them. Even if toys doesn't own the name, ask them anyway. Just ask around, but you will likely end up having to pay money for licensing, so kick-starter is a good idea, but be careful with it. I'm not saying to be careful with atari or toys for bob, I'm saying to be careful on kickstarter, because obviously toys-for-bob already knows about the sc2 and could probably pay for the licensing themselves if they really cared about it.

That's a terrible story about two possibly unrelated events coupled with more of the "I don't know who owns what or what I'm talking about but I'm determined to post this over and over again until everyone is tired of it. And then some".

But don't worry, we're back to.

Maybe the people who you trust to "design" the star control mod should be people like Celtic, but I know how the business works because I'm in that business.
I really don't think you want to have me say "I told you so" when my company finishes a successful game which can easily get a sponsorship for over 5,000 dollars that I can link to just for it looking good, and 5,000 isn't even optimistic for a very good flash game and we aren't even only working on flash games. There's people who have salaries of over 50,000 dollars off this whole flash industry who aren't even particularly famous in any way. This isn't some "dream" thing, this is if you work hard and think things through, you will make money, there's nothing particularly optimistic or dreamy about what I am saying.

I don't have a link specifically to what I worked, partly because I never needed to and partly because human head has copyright on all the art and coding, all I can say right now is the fact that I know how these things means I have some experiences, I don't know how else I could know these things because google certainly doesn't give you all this.
Do you find it illogical or completely wrong to ask toys and activision and whoever else is involved about this and use kickstarter to pay  for licensing as long as you are careful? Because otherwise your disrespect is pointless. I never asked you to worship anyone, I made a logical point that people would be wise to follow or prepare for. There is a high probability you will have to pay a large sum of money for licensing, and since it may be illegal to make a product you are currently working on, I would suggest directing kickstarter money into buying licensing if you investigate that far rather than quitting your job and getting sued. It's a small chance you would get sued only this far into the project, especially considering there's under 3,000 members. If you buy the license, depending on the license you may be able to sell the game to make money or put in adds, but that will probably make it less cool.

In the event that the original developers want to make something, they can probably re-use all the coding as was said before, but still have to buy a license to keep the name. By the video it looks like Fred and Reiche aren't directing so much energy towards star control. People like them can announce ideas publicly because they have the resources to compete with anyone who would try to steal it and have already started working on this "secret" project.
Maybe Celtic could even contact  those guys and tell them they are already working on it, and they can try and buy licensing together, or it might be possible they are already trying to save up money to buy the licensing. Either way, asking around is good idea.

Let's count the flaws here.
One - We don't need to change names and mages because the entire topic is about that the content owners should apply for the money and do this. So nothing in the argument makes any sense whatsoever.
Two - The content owners have specifically licensed the game code and content in a fashion that allows for the making of mods. they've publicly endorsed the mods made.
Three - The mods don't matter since we weren't talking about them
Four - You got the name of the maker of the mod wrong, which shows that you're pretty clueless about it.
Five - Cedric hasn't tried selling anything or claiming that it is his, that's not the point of the mod. It's not a commercial venture who would he even sell it too when it's publicly available on sourceforge.
Six - "The company that made sc2" is such a ridiculous concept that it means nothing. The studio that made it still exists and owns all the content. that's TFB, the guys we want to apply for the kickstarter. Remember, the thread title? And even though the company that owns them doesn't exist, it doesn't matter since ti is well known who owns the rights to the name Star Control and they've shown that they are interested in keeping them.

Does that list look familiar? it should! Because you're making exactly the same mistakes after being corrected on them over and over again. Did I make that groundhog day joke already? i don't know because reading through your posts is a tightly controlled loop of this over and over again. And I'm only on page three of the thread! So what's your next post?



Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 27, 2012, 08:16:56 pm
Oh look I had to make another post to make room for all the flawed advice you're giving.

Ok, so if everything you guys is saying is true, then the only things that need to happen is someone needs to ask around to see what happening which is what I've been saying this WHOLE TIME, and possibly pay for licensing for the name and a few art pieces, which is what you'd use kickstarter for. Can anyone find any flaw in that? Because I really don't see what you guys are so confused about. Every time i try to suggest something, you say there's something wrong with it which seems unclear, so then I try to change it, and still there's something wrong with it which isn't even directly pointed out.
Does anyone think it's a bad idea to ask everyone what's going on with the project and use kick starter to pay for licensing? ANd since you might need to use kickstarter, I have some advice for that, which is to try and be careful, because evidently that fred and reiche duo doesn't have enough time or resources right now to make it, or they are in a contract with a company they work for where they can't make outside games and don't want to lose their jobs.
Also, I don't see the connection between god. The only way I could know what I said I knew is if I had experience because you can't find it on google and probably not in many books, that's it. It all lines up with reality, you can ask human-head yourself if they experienced turmoil and temporarily suspended many employees and you will find the answer is yes. That is, if you really think I'm making everything up. Besides, some of what I'm saying such as with kickstarter doesn't require experience to know, it's just logical that the idea could be stolen or then if your not deceptive enough that it won't get many donations.

My advice to ask around even if you don't want to just so you can make sure, and you may have to pay a large sum of money for some licensing to keep some of the original things, that's my advice, take it or leave it, I'm done with this topic.

Hey, we're back on giving advice on stuff no one asked about based on faulty premises! why do you keep returning to the idea that we want the kickstarter for Cedric's mod and that he is going to sell it for money? Thanks for the advice on how to do something no one has suggested based on your extremely poor understanding on what's going on once more. It's not like we heard you and told you you were wrong the six or so first times.

That brings us up to my first post in this thread, and from what I can see it just gets worse after that with you showing us how you don't understand how licensing works in general, and specifically not in this case. How can you be wrong so many times? How is that even possible? How can you think that someone copyrighted physics? As in, "your honour, let it be shown that in my competitors game F clearly equals m*a. Such uniqueness can only be copied from me!"

Seriously. Take a break. Read through what you have written, but especially what people have replied. You don't know anything about the topic at hand. you don't know anything about UQM. You don't know anything about the licensing issues, content owners or legalities of the situation. You don't understand how the mods work and that they are already released. Pretty much, you have attained an Owa level nothingness of mind on this subject. Go land on a rainbow world.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 28, 2012, 12:16:29 am
@dath: *sigh* well yeah, most probably court investigations have their resources limited to google ... and your IP history isn't recorded ... and your hardwares have no serial numbers ... and your hardware info isn't submitted to the internet ... and your hardware purchases aren't recorded ... and your friend who bought the hardware for you won't tell your address to the FBI when they tell him/her how many years of jail sentece goes for someone obstructing authorities and assistance in piracy.
I don't say the information infrastructure is perfect, but your underestimating attitude would never make you a successful pirate.

the terms of agreement I'm staring at says otherwise.

Ok, how about this:
You guys keep blindly perusing a failed game series, and I'll go back to a real job and making successful games...


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Dabir on March 28, 2012, 12:26:41 am
Feel free to come back and point us to one when you do. I'm sure we'll all love playing it. Until then, you should probably buzz off.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 28, 2012, 12:49:50 am
Ok, how about this:
You guys keep blindly perusing a failed game series, and I'll go back to a real job and making successful games...

Wow, you really want to feel superior to this community, don't you? So much so that you're completely ignoring the fact that Star Control II was a quite successful game, and considering its age, still is 20 years later. What game have you made that's been anywhere near that level of success? I certainly have never heard of it.

Given everything you've said, I have reason to believe that everything you've said thus far about your experience is a lie; you're probably just some 13-year-old who thinks he's special.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 28, 2012, 07:03:43 am
You guys keep blindly perusing a failed game series, and I'll go back to a real job and making successful games...

Cool. While you do that I'll keep working at my highly paid and well esteemed job that actually makes a difference in the real world while you keep pretending that creating toys is an enviable job in any way shape or form. Now how's that for hyperbole?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 28, 2012, 02:51:54 pm
Ok, how about this:
You guys keep blindly perusing a failed game series, and I'll go back to a real job and making successful games...

Wow, you really want to feel superior to this community, don't you? So much so that you're completely ignoring the fact that Star Control II was a quite successful game, and considering its age, still is 20 years later. What game have you made that's been anywhere near that level of success? I certainly have never heard of it.

Given everything you've said, I have reason to believe that everything you've said thus far about your experience is a lie; you're probably just some 13-year-old who thinks he's special.

If you guys weren't such assholes I would have helped you, even if I didn't directly have the experience even though I technically do, I know over 12 highly paid programmers and artists and a couple sound engineers and they tell me how they do things and why they keep their jobs. The star control series is practically done for unless the real creators want to revive it, and that's the fact. Unless you guys put real effort and into the right things, it will just die down as it practically has already. But since you guys (except for maybe a few people, but even some of the art I could make in a couple minutes) are too lazy to even check with people involved to see what's happening, it's just going to die.

You guys keep blindly perusing a failed game series, and I'll go back to a real job and making successful games...

Cool. While you do that I'll keep working at my highly paid and well esteemed job that actually makes a difference in the real world while you keep pretending that creating toys is an enviable job in any way shape or form. Now how's that for hyperbole?

Oh yeah because someone who actually had a job that important would definitely waste time on a game forum.


And here's the thing too, I wasn't the only one planning on working on a game based off of this, other people are already working on it. Now how could I possibly know that?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 28, 2012, 03:57:16 pm
If you guys weren't such assholes I would have helped you

Helped with what? Being a stupid jerk? That's all you've shown yourself to be capable of doing.

(Also, again, I don't get why you're saying that everyone here is being rude to you. Luki, in particular, is being incredibly civil. I'm being rude, but frankly, you had it coming.)


even if I didn't directly have the experience even though I technically do, I know over 12 highly paid programmers and artists and a couple sound engineers and they tell me how they do things and why they keep their jobs.

Knowing an expert hardly makes you an expert. In fact, being highly paid for what you do doesn't necessarily make you an expert, and being not very well paid doesn't make you a non-expert. Indeed, being underpaid is a common occurrence in the video game industry; video game programmers make shit compared to general programmers for comparatively more work (and more complicated work). Does that mean these programmers are less competent than general programmers? No. It just means that there isn't as much demand for game programmers as there is for general programmers, so we game programmers have to deal with lower wages.


Oh yeah because someone who actually had a job that important would definitely waste time on a game forum.

Apparently you're illiterate, too. Take a look again. Maybe you should call your mommy over so she can read it to you:

So I don't often do this kind of stuff anymore, but I've got some spare time after wrapping up a major project.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Death 999 on March 28, 2012, 05:08:13 pm
Why, yes, it DOES make sense that people with important, well-paid jobs want to subject themselves to this stress all the time, and never have any leisure activities.

This was an ad hominem of the stupidest sort, though not the meanest. No one but you could possibly buy it. If you're a troll, you're somewhere around Karkat in technical ability.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 28, 2012, 05:56:47 pm
Looks like skipping everything after page three didn't matter much. Shall we count the flaws again?

If you guys weren't such assholes I would have helped you, even if I didn't directly have the experience even though I technically do, I know over 12 highly paid programmers and artists and a couple sound engineers and they tell me how they do things and why they keep their jobs.

So, this is a topic where Star Control fans are discussing whether the original creators of the series could apply for a kickstarter and if this kind of model could work for them. But somehow you still think that this is a thread about putting together a new team for applying for a kickstarter and making a sequel to content we don't own and can't use commercially. In practice this means that you're offering hypothetical help with something that no one has asked for which isn't legally possible even if there was some "we" that wanted to do it. Can you see how this sin't very useful in any form or fashion?

Quote
The star control series is practically done for unless the real creators want to revive it, and that's the fact.

Which is what everyone but you was discussing in this thread, could the original creators apply for this and would it make sense for them to use this model. However it isn't at all what you've been talking about.

Quote
Unless you guys put real effort and into the right things, it will just die down as it practically has already.

Again there's this weird assumption that you're talking to people who are all poised to apply for a kickstarter and eager to use those funds to make an illegal game that can't be sold. You're the only one who thinks that's what's going on though despite people telling you repeatedly that it isn't the case.

Quote
But since you guys (except for maybe a few people, but even some of the art I could make in a couple minutes) are too lazy to even check with people involved to see what's happening, it's just going to die.

So not only do you keep on the same course of arguing a completely different thing than others in the thread, you manage to claim that you're as good an artist as some nebulous entity who you think is working on this commercial sequel that this thread is about in your mind. Since such a thing doesn't exist we'll have to assume that you're actually trying to clumsily and incorrectly reference P6014 (which is not a commercial venture and is not applying for any money) and that you for some laughable reason think that you're as good an artist as zenzmurfy or dcanzik. Again of course without anything to back your words up.

Oh yeah because someone who actually had a job that important would definitely waste time on a game forum.

One of the cool thing about having a job is that it's only about 40-50 hours of a week containing 168 hours. That leaves plenty of times for eating, sleeping and leisure. But being employed by a company I'm sure you know that.

Or is this an another attempt at showing your base logic? "No one who posts here can have an important job, therefore you should believe me when I claim I have an important job as a game designer." Impeccable.

Quote
And here's the thing too, I wasn't the only one planning on working on a game based off of this, other people are already working on it. Now how could I possibly know that?

Here's the thing, in order to prove my unverified claim I'll make another unverified claim. Because, you know, two wrongs make a right!


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 28, 2012, 06:00:25 pm
Actually all this prattle is making me forget that something important and very valuable was said in this thread.

No, I don't trust Cedric6014 to design our mod, he's one of the authority guys and I do as they say or I'm out.

This is a very commendable attitude. One of the big things that killed Timewarp back in the day was splintering into different factions, in many cases due to disagreements on the story since everyone has their own vision of what it should be. It's the adult, mature and sensible thing to do if you want at least one SC project to succeed. And while I'm sure it doesn't mean much to you that some stranger on the internet approves of your decision, I have to say this is something that makes me happy.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Megagun on March 28, 2012, 09:12:25 pm
Now how could I possibly know that?
This tells me that you're either not working for Human Head, or you're not very clever.

EDIT: Have you ever even played Star Control 2?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 01:53:21 am
Looks like skipping everything after page three didn't matter much. Shall we count the flaws again?

If you guys weren't such assholes I would have helped you, even if I didn't directly have the experience even though I technically do, I know over 12 highly paid programmers and artists and a couple sound engineers and they tell me how they do things and why they keep their jobs.

So, this is a topic where Star Control fans are discussing whether the original creators of the series could apply for a kickstarter and if this kind of model could work for them. But somehow you still think that this is a thread about putting together a new team for applying for a kickstarter and making a sequel to content we don't own and can't use commercially. In practice this means that you're offering hypothetical help with something that no one has asked for which isn't legally possible even if there was some "we" that wanted to do it. Can you see how this sin't very useful in any form or fashion?

Quote
The star control series is practically done for unless the real creators want to revive it, and that's the fact.

Which is what everyone but you was discussing in this thread, could the original creators apply for this and would it make sense for them to use this model. However it isn't at all what you've been talking about.

Quote
Unless you guys put real effort and into the right things, it will just die down as it practically has already.

Again there's this weird assumption that you're talking to people who are all poised to apply for a kickstarter and eager to use those funds to make an illegal game that can't be sold. You're the only one who thinks that's what's going on though despite people telling you repeatedly that it isn't the case.

Quote
But since you guys (except for maybe a few people, but even some of the art I could make in a couple minutes) are too lazy to even check with people involved to see what's happening, it's just going to die.

So not only do you keep on the same course of arguing a completely different thing than others in the thread, you manage to claim that you're as good an artist as some nebulous entity who you think is working on this commercial sequel that this thread is about in your mind. Since such a thing doesn't exist we'll have to assume that you're actually trying to clumsily and incorrectly reference P6014 (which is not a commercial venture and is not applying for any money) and that you for some laughable reason think that you're as good an artist as zenzmurfy or dcanzik. Again of course without anything to back your words up.

Oh yeah because someone who actually had a job that important would definitely waste time on a game forum.

One of the cool thing about having a job is that it's only about 40-50 hours of a week containing 168 hours. That leaves plenty of times for eating, sleeping and leisure. But being employed by a company I'm sure you know that.

Or is this an another attempt at showing your base logic? "No one who posts here can have an important job, therefore you should believe me when I claim I have an important job as a game designer." Impeccable.

Quote
And here's the thing too, I wasn't the only one planning on working on a game based off of this, other people are already working on it. Now how could I possibly know that?

Here's the thing, in order to prove my unverified claim I'll make another unverified claim. Because, you know, two wrongs make a right!

Topic discussions can easily change, and even if I did misunderstand people, it doesn't give them an excuse to be assholes. If there going to put all that effort just to be an asshole to me I'm going to do it right back.
I never said it was impossible for someone with a "job that helps the world" to spend all that time on here, but it's just not very likely because someone with that high of a pay or determination to help people is probably 99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life. If they have a high paying job with that kind of attitude, then they also could very well be dating someone and have a family.

Now how could I possibly know that?
This tells me that you're either not working for Human Head, or you're not very clever.

EDIT: Have you ever even played Star Control 2?

Your not very clever for thinking that I wasn't considering this website nor gossip.

What happens if someone involved simply claims they were not the ones who put it up? Then, even with a CC license, isn't it still illegal even according to your own posts? Handing out a free game with everything for free use seems too good to be true, there's are some thing that can go wrong.
Of course, this entire topic could have been avoided if people had just asked around in the first place and stated what they had found out.


I just looked at the text file titled "MANUAL" in the program files of star control 2, it says all rights are reserved and "Neither the Software nor the user manual may
be duplicated or copied for any reason." near the bottom.

It might be possible I'm missing something to this, but I'm going to be pissed if I'm not.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 02:36:26 am
Topic discussions can easily change, and even if I did misunderstand people, it doesn't give them an excuse to be assholes. If there going to put all that effort just to be an asshole to me I'm going to do it right back.
I never said it was impossible for someone with a "job that helps the world" to spend all that time on here, but it's just not very likely because someone with that high of a pay or determination to help people is probably 99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life. If they have a high paying job with that kind of attitude, then they also could very well be dating someone and have a family.

What's this bullshit about "actual life"? This is a pathetic tactic you're using, trying to shame Luki, easily one of the best people in this community, into leaving it for a reason that no intelligent person would, just so you can avoid the fact that you have shown yourself to be an absolute moron in this topic.

But if we're going to use that logic, have you looked in a fucking mirror?! You've been posting bullshit in this topic much longer than Luki has been responding to your bullshit. Therefore, if you were telling the truth about yourself, i.e. you're a super-experienced, 1337 game developer dude, you would be, in your own words, "99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life". Of course, this is horse shit, but it's YOUR reasoning.

Your not very clever for thinking that I wasn't considering this website nor gossip.

You're not very clever for saying "your" (possessive form of "you") when you clearly mean "you're" (contraction of "you are").

What happens if someone involved simply claims they were not the ones who put it up? Then, even with a CC license, isn't it still illegal even according to your own posts?

Stop being stupid. If this were the case (and it isn't), it would be the person who unlawfully licensed it who would be in trouble, not the person who was lied to.

I just looked at the text file titled "MANUAL" in the program files of star control 2, it says all rights are reserved and "Neither the Software nor the user manual may
be duplicated or copied for any reason." near the bottom.

I'm not going to call you an idiot this time, mostly because I'm technically only guessing and I always make sure to show humility in situations like these (unlike you, evidently), but it seems to me that this is simply a legacy file. It is not included in the actual releases (at least, not the 0.7.0 Windows release).


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 02:57:54 am
What's this bullshit about "actual life"? This is a pathetic tactic you're using, trying to shame Luki, easily one of the best people in this community, into leaving it for a reason that no intelligent person would, just so you can avoid the fact that you have shown yourself to be an absolute moron in this topic.

But if we're going to use that logic, have you looked in a fucking mirror?! You've been posting bullshit in this topic much longer than Luki has been responding to your bullshit. Therefore, if you were telling the truth about yourself, i.e. you're a super-experienced, 1337 game developer dude, you would be, in your own words, "99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life". Of course, this is horse shit, but it's YOUR reasoning.

Here's a news flash: this website isn't helping the world, or really anyone. I didn't say coming here brought shame to anyone or meant they have no life, that's you, I don't know how shameful you feel about wasting so much time playing these games, but that's not what I had stated. It's most likely that people who have that much of a life, or people who have such a high priority thing in their life wouldn't really even care about video games nor have the time for them. He could easily have a real job and a life, but I don't think it's as of high caliber as he makes it out to be.

You're not very clever for saying "your" (possessive form of "you") when you clearly mean "you're" (contraction of "you are").
So if I wasn't that clever, but you still understood what I was saying well enough to even correct a minor mistake?

Stop being stupid. If this were the case (and it isn't), it would be the person who unlawfully licensed it who would be in trouble, not the person who was lied to.
Nope, you'd still be in trouble, at least that's what my programmer friend told me. The creators could be sympathetic towards your situation, but you still broke the law by downloading and distributing illegal copies. Legally it wouldn't be much different than torrenting or buying stolen music from a friend.


I'm not going to call you an idiot this time, mostly because I'm technically only guessing and I always make sure to show humility in situations like these (unlike you, evidently), but it seems to me that this is simply a legacy file. It is not included in the actual releases (at least, not the 0.7.0 Windows release).

I'm pretty sure your above quotes are not humility. If you want me to be courteous to you, then don't be an asshole.
The same information could easily be in the original game files but under a different name. Better to check, or ask around.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 03:02:27 am
The same information could easily be in the original game files but under a different name. Better to check, or ask around.

I just did check, as a matter of fact. That text is nowhere to be found anywhere in the latest official release of UQM. Stop making stuff up, you're not exactly helping your credibility.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 03:04:14 am
The same information could easily be in the original game files but under a different name. Better to check, or ask around.

I just did check, as a matter of fact. That text is nowhere to be found anywhere in the latest official release of UQM. Stop making stuff up, you're not exactly helping your credibility.

I didn't make that text file up, and did you mean to say you checked for the text file called "MANUAL" or that you checked every single file for the words "All rights are reserved"? And did you check in an early version? Because you might have missed the point of what I said.

There's another text file I found called "README.txt", near the bottom it says similar things, but does not say specifically what belongs to who or what legal actions are applicable.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 03:13:44 am
Neither of those two files exist anywhere in the official UQM source release (unless you're referring to 'README'), as a matter of fact, and none say anything about all rights being reserved (the file describing licensing says:)

Quote
The Ur-Quan Masters
    Copyright (C) 1992, 2002 Toys for Bob, Inc.

    This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
    it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
    the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
    (at your option) any later version.

    This program is distributed in the hope that it will be entertaining,
    but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
    GNU General Public License for more details.  A copy of the
    General Public License is included at the end of this document.

    The content -- voiceovers, dialogue, graphics, sounds, and music --
    are copyright (C) 1992, 1993, 2002 Toys for Bob, Inc. or their
    respective creators.  The content may be used freely under the
    terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
    2.5 license (included below, and also available at
    http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/).  The content
    may also be copied freely as part of a distribution of The Ur-Quan
    Masters.

    The documentation -- excluding documentation that is part of the
    code or otherwise clearly governed by the preceding licenses --
    may be used freely under the terms of the Creative Commons
    Attribution 2.0 license (included below, and also available at
    http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/).

    <full text of licenses follows in original, not posted due to length>


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 03:17:11 am
Neither of those two files exist anywhere in the official UQM source release, as a matter of fact, and none say anything about all rights being reserved (the file describing licensing says:)

Quote
The Ur-Quan Masters
    Copyright (C) 1992, 2002 Toys for Bob, Inc.

    This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
    it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
    the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
    (at your option) any later version.

    This program is distributed in the hope that it will be entertaining,
    but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
    MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
    GNU General Public License for more details.  A copy of the
    General Public License is included at the end of this document.

    The content -- voiceovers, dialogue, graphics, sounds, and music --
    are copyright (C) 1992, 1993, 2002 Toys for Bob, Inc. or their
    respective creators.  The content may be used freely under the
    terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
    2.5 license (included below, and also available at
    http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/).  The content
    may also be copied freely as part of a distribution of The Ur-Quan
    Masters.

    The documentation -- excluding documentation that is part of the
    code or otherwise clearly governed by the preceding licenses --
    may be used freely under the terms of the Creative Commons
    Attribution 2.0 license (included below, and also available at
    http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/).

    <full text of licenses follows in original, not posted due to length>

Do you have a link to the "source" release or original files? Because I'm pretty sure even other people said not every single thing is free, like the "Star Control 2" name for instance.
Also, how else would these files gotten onto the particular version I have and why? Or do you want me to take a screen shot?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 03:22:11 am
Official UQM source archive of 0.7.0 is here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/files/UQM/0.7/uqm-0.7.0-source.tgz/download

AFAIK, only the trademark (i.e. the name 'Star Control') is owned by anyone other than Toys For Bob, the original authors of the game. Any copyrights that were not TFB's originally reverted to TFB upon Accolade defaulting on royalty payments, and TFB released a modified version of the original 3DO source code under the GNU General Public License, and all content (art, music, sound effects, and the rest) under CC-BY-SA 2.0 in 2002. But you knew all that already, or at least have been told that already.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 03:28:07 am
So if I wasn't that clever, how come you still understood me even well enough to correct a minor mistake?

You can be intelligible without being clever, you know.

Nope, you'd still be in trouble, at least that's what my programmer friend told me. The creators could be sympathetic towards your situation, but you still broke the law by downloading and distributing illegal copies. Legally it wouldn't be much different than torrenting or buying stolen music from a friend.

You're right because your programmer friend said so? Hey, wanna know something? I'm a programmer, too! Come on, being a programmer does NOTHING to qualify you as a reliable source on how the law works.

I'm pretty sure your above quotes are not humility. If you want me to be curious to you, then don't be an asshole.

I said I'm humble when I'm only guessing or unsure, not that I've been humble throughout this topic.

As for being an "asshole", fair enough, but I haven't been a jerk to you this entire topic. I was ludicrously civil for quite some time. Up until page 6, to be precise. If you want me to be nice again, show some humility and stop repeating the same falsehoods you've been spewing. Educate yourself instead of pretending to be some kind of expert on something you know nothing about. If you can't do that, deal with it or GTFO.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 03:40:05 am
So if I wasn't that clever, how come you still understood me even well enough to correct a minor mistake?

You can be intelligible without being clever, you know.

Nope, you'd still be in trouble, at least that's what my programmer friend told me. The creators could be sympathetic towards your situation, but you still broke the law by downloading and distributing illegal copies. Legally it wouldn't be much different than torrenting or buying stolen music from a friend.

You're right because your programmer friend said so? Hey, wanna know something? I'm a programmer, too! Come on, being a programmer does NOTHING to qualify you as a reliable source on how the law works.

I'm pretty sure your above quotes are not humility. If you want me to be curious to you, then don't be an asshole.

I said I'm humble when I'm only guessing or unsure, not that I've been humble throughout this topic.

As for being an "asshole", fair enough, but I haven't been a jerk to you this entire topic. I was ludicrously civil for quite some time. Up until page 6, to be precise. If you want me to be nice again, show some humility and stop repeating the same falsehoods you've been spewing. Educate yourself instead of pretending to be some kind of expert on something you know nothing about. If you can't do that, deal with it or GTFO.

Well, I would trust my programmer friend more than you because he knows literally every programming language and for his These for his Ph. D. in computer engineering he designed a program that can create games themselves through Darwinian evolution, he knows how the game industry works well enough to even teach it.
I'll take a screenshot and post it too you, and I will also call Toys or a company close to them tomorrow to see if I can make sure everything is free since I might want to re-use some of the coding instead of making engines from scratch for my own games.

I've been planning on making another version of star control for over 6 years, and I've gone through several drafts, and it really irritates me how I have all this knowledge about making games good particularly star control and yet I see this level of disrespect towards me.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 03:53:36 am
Well, I would trust my programmer friend more than you because he knows literally every programming language and for his These for his Ph. D. in computer engineering he designed a program that can create games themselves through Darwinian evolution, he knows how the game industry works well enough to even teach it.

What in the holy hell does knowing "literally every programming language" (which is impossible, by the way) have to do with knowledge of law?

This magic dream program that can auto-generate games, which everyone would be talking about, by the way, would say nothing about the creator's knowledge of any law even if it existed.

As an aside, having a piece of paper from college says nothing about how good of a programmer you are. NOTHING.

But, hey, tell your programmer friend to contact me! Give him my E-mail address. It's onpon4@yahoo.com. If he's real, and he's really as good as you say he is, a discussion with him would be very interesting indeed.

I've been planning on making another version of star control for over 6 years, and I've gone through several drafts, and it really irritates me how I have all this knowledge about making games good particularly star control and yet I see this level of disrespect towards me.

More talk about how much amazing knowledge and experience you have without evidence. I ain't buying it. I'm 100% sure you're just a 12-year-old kid either trolling or trying to make himself look important. Your stupid belief that game ideas have spectacular value is strong evidence of that.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 03:59:03 am
I will also call Toys or a company close to them tomorrow to see if I can make sure everything is free since I might want to re-use some of the coding instead of making engines from scratch for my own games.

You can't do this without also releasing your derivative work under the GNU GPL, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 04:01:32 am


What in the holy hell does knowing "literally every programming language" (which is impossible, by the way) have to do with knowledge of law?

This magic dream program that can auto-generate games, which everyone would be talking about, by the way, would say nothing about the creator's knowledge of any law even if it existed.

As an aside, having a piece of paper from college says nothing about how good of a programmer you are. NOTHING.

But, hey, tell your programmer friend to contact me! Give him my E-mail address. It's onpon4@yahoo.com. If he's real, and he's really as good as you say he is, a discussion with him would be very interesting indeed.
It means he has a lot of experience, and when you get a job at a game company, they tell you how the legal things work out. Instead of wasting my friends' time by having him talk to you, why don't you just get a job at a game company? They will make sure you understand the laws.
I've been planning on making another version of star control for over 6 years, and I've gone through several drafts, and it really irritates me how I have all this knowledge about making games good particularly star control and yet I see this level of disrespect towards me.

More talk about how much amazing knowledge and experience you have without evidence. I ain't buying it. I'm 100% sure you're just a 12-year-old kid either trolling or trying to make himself look important. Your stupid belief that game ideas have spectacular value is strong evidence of that.

At least some evidence should be the fact that I had posted things with in-depth knowledge about the gaming industry which if heavily researched or asked about, professionals would agree with.
People don't steal things that are valueless. People steal ideas, therefore they have to have value.

Here's a screen shot by the way.

http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o509/dathinvaderzim/sc2screenshot.jpg

I will also call Toys or a company close to them tomorrow to see if I can make sure everything is free since I might want to re-use some of the coding instead of making engines from scratch for my own games.

You can't do this without also releasing your derivative work under the GNU GPL, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft.


I'm not going to sell them game, but simply plan on getting money from sponsors putting a link to their site when the game is loading or etc. But, in case it can't work like that, that's why I'm going to call them.


By the way, most people who ARE real programmers do occasionally talk about programs that can make games, such as the Darwinian evolution one, but you need to know about programming to know about that.
Just because it's interesting that the speed of light is the same from all frames of reference due to the effects of the Lorenz transformation on events is interesting doesn't mean everyone is talking about it, because people need to have higher education in physics in order to know about that.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 04:10:46 am
It means he has a lot of experience, and when you get a job at a game company, they tell you how the legal things work out. Instead of wasting my friends' time by having him talk to you, why don't you just get a job at a game company? They will make sure you understand the laws.

Oh, I don't need to learn the laws. I understand them perfectly well. It's you that don't. I was offering for your friend to contact me so he could vouch for your words being true, but I guess he doesn't exist.

At least some evidence should be the fact that I had posted things with in-depth knowledge about the gaming industry which if heavily researched or asked about, professionals would agree with.
People don't steal things that are valueless. People steal ideas, therefore they have to have value.

Simple Google searches reveal that no one considers game ideas to be valuable, and no one "steals" ideas.

Why don't I play your game? I am a very smart scientist! My proof is that I know that stars are made of yellow water, which you will find experts agree with me on!

Here's a screen shot by the way.

http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o509/dathinvaderzim/sc2screenshot.jpg

I can see from your screenshot that THAT'S THE ORIGINAL PC VERSION OF STAR CONTROL II, YOU BLITHERING IDIOT!


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 04:22:20 am


Oh, I don't need to learn the laws. I understand them perfectly well. It's you that don't. I was offering for your friend to contact me so he could vouch for your words being true, but I guess he doesn't exist.
This is my own personal issue and I'm not going to drag him into this. If you choose to believe he doesn't exists, that's not really my problem, nor his.

At least some evidence should be the fact that I had posted things with in-depth knowledge about the gaming industry which if heavily researched or asked about, professionals would agree with.
People don't steal things that are valueless. People steal ideas, therefore they have to have value.

Simple Google searches reveal that no one considers game ideas to be valuable, and no one "steals" ideas.
Ideas don't have value in the sense that they don't make money, they don't have physical value that translates into money, but since when is value not arbitrary anyway? Ideas are valuable in that they have the potential to make physical money. I'ts kind of like how light does have mass, but it's not real mass, it's relative mass.

Why don't I play your game? I am a very smart scientist! My proof is that I know that stars are made of yellow water, which you will find experts agree with me on!
The problem with "stars are made of yellow water" isn't very in-depth at all, and you wouldn't need to know any physics in order to guess that.



I can see from your screenshot that THAT'S THE ORIGINAL PC VERSION OF STAR CONTROL II, YOU BLITHERING IDIOT!
Then I guess I can't copy coding from it....and since all the later versions use the same game engines, I can't copy coding from those either.

Besides, I repeatedly asked for someone to post a link to this "source release", which no one has done.

If the thing I have is the original star control which it technically isn't, it's a later version, then according to the text files I see there, I should not be able to use the game engines for free. the "Ur-Quan Masters" uses the same game engines from this game, so you shouldn't be able to re-use them or alter them.

If I can remember correctly, someone who isn't me said even if someone changes their mind about a license, it still applies. So even if the people who made it "changed their minds", I'm still staring at this file that says otherwise, unless they maybe paid some money to make it free and paid the money to legally own all the licenses, which it seems they haven't if there's still that delema with the logo.

If however, project 6014 does not re-use these engines, then there shouldn't be as much of a problem.


Don't worry though, I'm going to call them tomorrow, or someone at least.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: player1 on March 29, 2012, 04:40:08 am
As far as I can see from the screenshots, it's not even original game, but version uploaded on various sites that host abandoned DOS games (legal grey area). Someone just did OSD scan of original paper manual and converted it to TXT file. There is even PDF scan of manual too.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 04:44:17 am
As far as I can see from the screenshots, it's not even original game, but version uploaded on various sites that host abandoned DOS games (legal grey area). Someone just did OSD scan of original paper manual and converted it to TXT file. There is even PDF scan of manual too.

So what would you say the chances are that someone randomly put that in there rather than as part of the game files?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: player1 on March 29, 2012, 04:47:49 am
There is nothing random there. It's practice for abandoned game packs to include scan of original manual, or OSD version of paper manual.


But, it really has nothing to do with Ur-Quan project. It doesn't even use source code of PC version, but of 3DO console version.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 04:48:58 am
Then I guess I can't copy coding from it....and since all the later versions use the same game engines, I can't copy coding from those either.

You are an idiot. I'm not going to explain to you why that's utter bullshit. Learn something about how licensing works, you moron.

Besides, I repeatedly asked for someone to post a link to this "source release", which no one has done.

Stop pulling shit out of your ass. You asked ONCE and oldlaptop gave you it.

If the thing I have is the original star control which it technically isn't, it's a later version, then according to the text files I see there, I should not be able to use the game engines for free. the "Ur-Quan Masters" uses the same game engines from this game, so you shouldn't be able to re-use them or alter them.

You're a dumbass.

If however, project 6014 does not re-use these engines, then there shouldn't be as much of a problem.

Earth to idiot! Project 6014 is a modification of The Ur-Quan Masters. COMMON KNOWLEDGE alert!


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: player1 on March 29, 2012, 04:51:30 am
The Ur-Quan Masters Project FAQ
http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/The_Ur-Quan_Masters_Project_FAQ


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 05:02:11 am
Then I guess I can't copy coding from it....and since all the later versions use the same game engines, I can't copy coding from those either.

You are an idiot. I'm not going to explain to you why that's utter bullshit. Learn something about how licensing works, you moron.

Besides, I repeatedly asked for someone to post a link to this "source release", which no one has done.

Stop pulling shit out of your ass. You asked ONCE and oldlaptop gave you it.

If the thing I have is the original star control which it technically isn't, it's a later version, then according to the text files I see there, I should not be able to use the game engines for free. the "Ur-Quan Masters" uses the same game engines from this game, so you shouldn't be able to re-use them or alter them.

You're a dumbass.

If however, project 6014 does not re-use these engines, then there shouldn't be as much of a problem.

Earth to idiot! Project 6014 is a modification of The Ur-Quan Masters. COMMON KNOWLEDGE alert!

Ur-quan masters and star control 2 I can get for PC, the ur-quan masters uses many of the same things  as star control, star control is copyrighted with all rights reserved on it's coding and images and sounds and names...there seems to be a problem.

It depends mostly on if the coding was made from scratch or it. If this 3D0 version can be considered made form scratch without in any way being made from any star control engines at all, then there might not be a problem with the coding.




Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 05:08:44 am
When I gave you the link to the official UQM source archive I also explained UQM's legal history in short. I guess you didn't read that, so I'll put it here again:

Official UQM source archive of 0.7.0 is here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/files/UQM/0.7/uqm-0.7.0-source.tgz/download

AFAIK, only the trademark (i.e. the name 'Star Control') is owned by anyone other than Toys For Bob, the original authors of the game. Any copyrights that were not TFB's originally reverted to TFB upon Accolade defaulting on royalty payments, and TFB released a modified version of the original 3DO source code under the GNU General Public License, and all content (art, music, sound effects, and the rest) under CC-BY-SA 2.0 in 2002. But you knew all that already, or at least have been told that already.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 05:09:32 am



Moderator edit: Removed verbal abuse. Let's keep it civilised.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 05:17:42 am
When I gave you the link to the official UQM source archive I also explained UQM's legal history in short. I guess you didn't read that, so I'll put it here again:

Official UQM source archive of 0.7.0 is here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sc2/files/UQM/0.7/uqm-0.7.0-source.tgz/download

AFAIK, only the trademark (i.e. the name 'Star Control') is owned by anyone other than Toys For Bob, the original authors of the game. Any copyrights that were not TFB's originally reverted to TFB upon Accolade defaulting on royalty payments, and TFB released a modified version of the original 3DO source code under the GNU General Public License, and all content (art, music, sound effects, and the rest) under CC-BY-SA 2.0 in 2002. But you knew all that already, or at least have been told that already.

Do you have something that's...not from wikipedia about these legal issues?
Otherwise, it would seem like the "Ur-Quan Masters" is the modified version created by P. and F., but perhaps the version I have was created before TFB issued the modified coding under a CC license, but in any case, I'm still going to ask around to make sure.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 05:32:58 am
Do you have something that's...not from wikipedia about these legal issues?

Yes, I just posted it (again). See also the official UQM copyright information and the UQM Project FAQ (which have both been posted in this thread). As an aside, it seems odd that you don't know what UQM is, seeing as how you're posting in it's official forum. Then again, you've already demonstrated a remarkable talent for remaining ignorant of facts even when they're shoved in your face.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 05:36:51 am
Ur-quan masters and star control 2 I can get for PC, the ur-quan masters uses many of the same things  as star control, star control is copyrighted with all rights reserved on it's coding and images and sounds and names...there seems to be a problem.

Dipshit.

Why would you get so riled up over a "12-year-old" and call a "12-year-old" a dipshit? I hope you never have kids...


Do you have something that's...not from wikipedia about these legal issues?

Yes, I just posted it (again). See also the official UQM copyright information and the UQM Project FAQ (which have both been posted in this thread). As an aside, it seems odd that you don't know what UQM is, seeing as how you're posting in it's official forum. Then again, you've already demonstrated a remarkable talent for remaining ignorant of facts even when they're shoved in your face.

You posted a link to a download of the Ur-Quan Masters...
I already own the Ur-Quan masters...
I can't read the files...
How does this help?

I looked a little more on ultracomunicon on wikipedia anyway (or w/e its called) and it said this applies 1992-2002, however the thing I have is 1997, after 2002, so what is this "1992" thing?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: oldlaptop on March 29, 2012, 05:44:27 am
Umm, assuming you're talking about that thing you took a screenshot of, that's the original DOS Star Control 2, *not* UQM.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 05:44:59 am
Umm, assuming you're talking about that thing you took a screenshot of, that's the original DOS Star Control 2, *not* UQM.

But the title  or logo says "Ur-Quan Masters", not "Star Control II"...


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: player1 on March 29, 2012, 05:51:43 am
Ur-quan masters and star control 2 I can get for PC, the ur-quan masters uses many of the same things  as star control, star control is copyrighted with all rights reserved on it's coding and images and sounds and names...there seems to be a problem.

Dipshit.

Why would you get so riled up over a "12-year-old" and call a "12-year-old" a dipshit? I hope you never have kids...


Do you have something that's...not from wikipedia about these legal issues?

Yes, I just posted it (again). See also the official UQM copyright information and the UQM Project FAQ (which have both been posted in this thread). As an aside, it seems odd that you don't know what UQM is, seeing as how you're posting in it's official forum. Then again, you've already demonstrated a remarkable talent for remaining ignorant of facts even when they're shoved in your face.

You posted a link to a download of the Ur-Quan Masters...
I already own the Ur-Quan masters...
I can't read the files...
How does this help?

I looked a little more on ultracomunicon on wikipedia anyway (or w/e its called) and it said this applies 1992-2002, however the thing I have is 1997, after 2002, so what is this "1992" thing?

That what you have is a repack of original game from some adabonware site. Whoever packed those files probably changed the date too.


As for original game, it was called Start Control II: Ur-Quan Masters.

This project is called just Ur-Quan Masters.



Original game intro (played from DOSBox):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09Ghbc9zZSs

Ur-Quan masters project intro, and a bit of gameplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4GB3FeqQVk


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: CelticMinstrel on March 29, 2012, 06:55:27 am
This is absolutely hilarious watching dathinvaderzim spout utter nonsense after utter nonsense, but I kinda think it might be a good idea to force it to end. Hilarious as it may have been, it's degenerating more and more into insults. (Most of them highly deserved insults, but still.)

You can't do this without also releasing your derivative work under the GNU GPL, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft.
Strictly speaking, you can... provided you get explicit permission from the actual owners of the source. Which, in this case, is not only Toys for Bob but also every single person who has ever committed to the svn repository.

Just because it's interesting that the speed of light is the same from all frames of reference due to the effects of the Lorenz transformation on events is interesting doesn't mean everyone is talking about it, because people need to have higher education in physics in order to know about that.
Ahahahaha... that's one of the most stupid things you could possibly say. A five-year-old could easily know about the effects of the Lorentz transformation. I'm not sure how well they could understand them (though I'm inclined to suspect "surprisingly well"), but understanding is not a prerequisite for knowledge.

Then I guess I can't copy coding from it....and since all the later versions use the same game engines, I can't copy coding from those either.
I can't expect you to comprehend something like this, but... Toys for Bob owns the source. They replaced the copyright notice in that file with something else when they released the source. Therefore, that copyright notice is no longer relevant to anything.

If the thing I have is the original star control which it technically isn't, it's a later version, then according to the text files I see there, I should not be able to use the game engines for free. the "Ur-Quan Masters" uses the same game engines from this game, so you shouldn't be able to re-use them or alter them.
It's easy to prove you wrong about it being a "later version". Just post a screenshot of the planet lander navigating a planet.

Ur-quan masters and star control 2 I can get for PC, the ur-quan masters uses many of the same things  as star control, star control is copyrighted with all rights reserved on it's coding and images and sounds and names...there seems to be a problem.

It depends mostly on if the coding was made from scratch or it. If this 3D0 version can be considered made form scratch without in any way being made from any star control engines at all, then there might not be a problem with the coding.
...you're an idiot. The 3DO version was of course based on the DOS version, and UQM is based on the 3DO version. And none of that has any bearing on what's legal or allowed or anything.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 29, 2012, 08:53:47 am
Well I gotta say, this is pretty great if you are trolling, though kinda sad if you're not. Either way, it's certainly one of the more amusing threadbreaks I've seen in a while, so thank's for that. I hope poor onpon4 isn't going to get too high blood pressure over your (hopefully) feigned ignorance but it is certainly a show, I'll give it that. Anyway, as I still have some smidgeons of time I'll give this a run over one more time though I doubt you're actually reading much of anything. But at least we can both have fun, eh?

Quote
Topic discussions can easily change,

Sure, but the way they generally happen is that the discussion segues into something else, not that a single person tries to bend reality to their pretty mismatched concept of it. I mean if the topic had drifted to "Could we apply for this ourselves" or some such then why not? But instead it was forcibly set is "Here is what I think you guys are doing though it is completely wrong."

Quote
and even if I did misunderstand people, it doesn't give them an excuse to be assholes. If there going to put all that effort just to be an asshole to me I'm going to do it right back.

Oh absolutely. A simple misunderstanding is no call for rude language or bad behaviour. Perish the thought. But wilfully repeating the misunderstanding though you've been corrected on it numerous times does tend to put people's teeth on edge and sour their moods. what you're doing is the equivalentof going into a nightclub and and asking to buy a train ticket. The first time the bartender is just going to sort of smile and explain that you're in a nightclub and that they don't sell train tickets. But once you've stood at his bar for an hour asking for train tickets, timetables, bonus points for travelling miles and engine data he isn't going to be as friendly anymore, right?

Quote
I never said it was impossible for someone with a "job that helps the world" to spend all that time on here, but it's just not very likely because someone with that high of a pay or determination to help people is probably 99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life. If they have a high paying job with that kind of attitude, then they also could very well be dating someone and have a family.

So there's two pretty big threads on the other Star Control forum which I'm not going to link you to. I normally would, but you're not going to read them anyway and I'd rather not see your artform and/or delusions spill over to there. They're easily found by though, so if you want verification it's right there. I've posted in those threads since roughly 2004 or some such, so there's either quite a bit of backstory I made up in preparation for this one discussion with a faceless stranger on the internet or a pretty solid detailing on what I do. The short of it is that I'm a process design engineer in the chemical field and a HSE officer in the execution phase of projects. One part of my job involves designing and redesigning pretty big processes in factories that make goods that our society actually needs to continue (such as fuel, paper, medicine) while the other part involves being present and responsible for safety in the field when we execute said projects (i.e rebuild or construct new things). So in my work, I partially sit in an office and make things better with less pollution and energy consumption. In the other part I'm out in the field doing safety rounds, following up accidents and the likes to protect our entrepreneurs from bodily harm. Next week I have a few risk assessments to conduct and two training events for contractors so that they all know our rules, evacuation procedures, exotic safety hazards and whatnot. I help people, and when things go wrong it's thanks to people like me that they know what to do, where to call, where to go and so on. I don't claim that it is something that changes the world in a grand fashion, but it does make my small corner of it better and safer. It's pretty cool.

Quote
I just looked at the text file titled "MANUAL" in the program files of star control 2, it says all rights are reserved and "Neither the Software nor the user manual may be duplicated or copied for any reason." near the bottom.

Though not as cool as this. I gotta say, this is hilarious if it's intentional and still kinda funny if it isn't. I mean, the whole concept of a guy having worked on and off on a "sequel" to Star Control 2 for six yeras (while UQM has been around for more than that) without even understanding the distinction between the original game "Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters" and the released under license content and source code "The Ur-Quan Masters" is pretty brilliant. Especially since you ignore the actual source files that contain all the info your requesting every time oldlaptop posts them. It's like your timeline stopped moving in 199whatever and anything that happened after that has not only not registerted on your radar, but can't. Like no matter how many times it is mentioned you can't grasp the content of anything newer. In your world, who is the president of the United States? Bush senior? I mean clearly he was sworn in around that time and nothing can have changed after that, right? Maybe someone else claims to be the president, but we better advise him to ask around a bit.

I'm really enjoying this thread more than I should. Shiver would tell us we're all idiots for replying to you at all, but I dunno. Is it still stupid if you can derive personal pleasure from it, not matter the bad example it sets? Something for the philosophers to ponder I guess.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Admiral Zeratul on March 29, 2012, 09:42:32 am
Guys, I think we've been trolled.

That has got to be it, right? No one can possibly achieve this level of stupidity under natural circumstances. I simply refuse to believe it. Either darthinvaderzim is trolling, or he has suffered a terrible head injury. I can think of no other logical explanation to his irrational behavior.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 01:03:55 pm
I have been instructed by a moderator that I must cease name-calling, so I'll just have to revert to acting like you have some sort of interest in learning. Unfortunately, if memory serves, 12 is around the age the desire to learn ceases in many children, but I'll try my best. Pay attention, dathinvaderzim.

Let's start from the beginning. When you create a "creative" work (i.e. an expression) such as a program like Star Control II, it goes under copyright. This means that you, the creator, are the only one who has the right to copy and distribute the creative work. Now, Star Control II had some more complicated copyright ownership if I'm not mistaken, but Toys for Bob now owns the copyright to all source code and content (except, by my understanding, the 3DO videos), so let's pretend TFB owned it all from the start just to make things simpler for you.

Now, in 1992 in our slightly modified reality (for the purposes of simplification), TFB releases SC2 under a restrictive license. This restrictive license is typical, not allowing any form of unauthorized copying or redistribution.

But the thing is, this restricts the receivers of the license, not the copyright owner. Understand the difference? It is perfectly legal (and common) for the copyright owner to re-license the same content under a different license. In this case, Toys For Bob re-licensed the 3DO version of Star Control II under combined terms of the GNU GPL and CC-BY-NC-SA. In the version with the GPL and CC licenses, see, the license the older version was distributed under does not apply. That's kind of how licensing works.

Any questions?

Oh, and I think you're confused:

however the thing I have is 1997, after 2002, so what is this "1992" thing?

1997 is not after 2002. It's five years earlier. Are you suffering from the Y2K bug?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 01:36:42 pm
Forgot I was going to do a real response to this:

Why don't I play your game? I am a very smart scientist! My proof is that I know that stars are made of yellow water, which you will find experts agree with me on!
The problem with "stars are made of yellow water" isn't very in-depth at all, and you wouldn't need to know any physics in order to guess that.

Ignoring the fact that you put your username in the author field where mine belongs, what? You do realize I pulled the "stars are made of yellow water" thing out of my ass, right? Of course not. I can't think of many places to start, but maybe this will work for your level of education:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FALhhGZRsos


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 02:18:07 pm
Well I gotta say, this is pretty great if you are trolling, though kinda sad if you're not. Either way, it's certainly one of the more amusing threadbreaks I've seen in a while, so thank's for that. I hope poor onpon4 isn't going to get too high blood pressure over your (hopefully) feigned ignorance but it is certainly a show, I'll give it that. Anyway, as I still have some smidgeons of time I'll give this a run over one more time though I doubt you're actually reading much of anything. But at least we can both have fun, eh?

Quote
Topic discussions can easily change,

Sure, but the way they generally happen is that the discussion segues into something else, not that a single person tries to bend reality to their pretty mismatched concept of it. I mean if the topic had drifted to "Could we apply for this ourselves" or some such then why not? But instead it was forcibly set is "Here is what I think you guys are doing though it is completely wrong."

Quote
and even if I did misunderstand people, it doesn't give them an excuse to be assholes. If there going to put all that effort just to be an asshole to me I'm going to do it right back.

Oh absolutely. A simple misunderstanding is no call for rude language or bad behaviour. Perish the thought. But wilfully repeating the misunderstanding though you've been corrected on it numerous times does tend to put people's teeth on edge and sour their moods. what you're doing is the equivalentof going into a nightclub and and asking to buy a train ticket. The first time the bartender is just going to sort of smile and explain that you're in a nightclub and that they don't sell train tickets. But once you've stood at his bar for an hour asking for train tickets, timetables, bonus points for travelling miles and engine data he isn't going to be as friendly anymore, right?

Quote
I never said it was impossible for someone with a "job that helps the world" to spend all that time on here, but it's just not very likely because someone with that high of a pay or determination to help people is probably 99% likely to not waste time on this forum and have more of an actual life. If they have a high paying job with that kind of attitude, then they also could very well be dating someone and have a family.

So there's two pretty big threads on the other Star Control forum which I'm not going to link you to. I normally would, but you're not going to read them anyway and I'd rather not see your artform and/or delusions spill over to there. They're easily found by though, so if you want verification it's right there. I've posted in those threads since roughly 2004 or some such, so there's either quite a bit of backstory I made up in preparation for this one discussion with a faceless stranger on the internet or a pretty solid detailing on what I do. The short of it is that I'm a process design engineer in the chemical field and a HSE officer in the execution phase of projects. One part of my job involves designing and redesigning pretty big processes in factories that make goods that our society actually needs to continue (such as fuel, paper, medicine) while the other part involves being present and responsible for safety in the field when we execute said projects (i.e rebuild or construct new things). So in my work, I partially sit in an office and make things better with less pollution and energy consumption. In the other part I'm out in the field doing safety rounds, following up accidents and the likes to protect our entrepreneurs from bodily harm. Next week I have a few risk assessments to conduct and two training events for contractors so that they all know our rules, evacuation procedures, exotic safety hazards and whatnot. I help people, and when things go wrong it's thanks to people like me that they know what to do, where to call, where to go and so on. I don't claim that it is something that changes the world in a grand fashion, but it does make my small corner of it better and safer. It's pretty cool.

Quote
I just looked at the text file titled "MANUAL" in the program files of star control 2, it says all rights are reserved and "Neither the Software nor the user manual may be duplicated or copied for any reason." near the bottom.

Though not as cool as this. I gotta say, this is hilarious if it's intentional and still kinda funny if it isn't. I mean, the whole concept of a guy having worked on and off on a "sequel" to Star Control 2 for six yeras (while UQM has been around for more than that) without even understanding the distinction between the original game "Star Control 2: The Ur-Quan Masters" and the released under license content and source code "The Ur-Quan Masters" is pretty brilliant. Especially since you ignore the actual source files that contain all the info your requesting every time oldlaptop posts them. It's like your timeline stopped moving in 199whatever and anything that happened after that has not only not registerted on your radar, but can't. Like no matter how many times it is mentioned you can't grasp the content of anything newer. In your world, who is the president of the United States? Bush senior? I mean clearly he was sworn in around that time and nothing can have changed after that, right? Maybe someone else claims to be the president, but we better advise him to ask around a bit.

I'm really enjoying this thread more than I should. Shiver would tell us we're all idiots for replying to you at all, but I dunno. Is it still stupid if you can derive personal pleasure from it, not matter the bad example it sets? Something for the philosophers to ponder I guess.

I was working an another version, but I specifically did not want to copy everything from sc2, I wanted to make my own, but if it is true that every single thing is somehow absolutely 100% free in every way shape and form, then I'm going to call them and see about maybe using the coding.
Whatever that link it, is doesn't seem to do anything
and it said 1992, which is before 2002, yet the star control 2 source files are in something titled the Uq-Quan masters. But wait, I thought the altered version of the Ur-Quan masters didn't come out until 2002...something went wrong. They must have illegally put their logo on it before it was actually legal because they had anticipated it something would change and that no one involved would find it in time for anything.


But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.


Forgot I was going to do a real response to this:

Why don't I play your game? I am a very smart scientist! My proof is that I know that stars are made of yellow water, which you will find experts agree with me on!
The problem with "stars are made of yellow water" isn't very in-depth at all, and you wouldn't need to know any physics in order to guess that.

Ignoring the fact that you put your username in the author field where mine belongs, what? You do realize I pulled the "stars are made of yellow water" thing out of my ass, right? Of course not. I can't think of many places to start, but maybe this will work for your level of education:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FALhhGZRsos

I already help un-educated people with math and physics anyway, so I'll give it a try here.
Let's look at your theory that and see if we can prove or disprove it, we'll start with the basics:
What is the chemical formula for that "yellow water"? Or, what are the percentage of compounds? With this we can determine the molar mass. Do you know the density? Do you know the state of matter? Water comes in all 4 three forms on Earth...
Next, what is the volume of this structure?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 02:33:57 pm
But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.

You might not realize this, but no one is taking you seriously here. You've shown ignorance of basic copyright law, so why should we?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 29, 2012, 02:58:36 pm
But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.

You might not realize this, but no one is taking you seriously here. You've shown ignorance of basic copyright law, so why should we?

CC license for the most part I agreed to mean you can freely distribute it things under it, but what I had stated was that perhaps not every single thing is completely free or in fact under that license or that circumstances can change. Then, I don't know exactly what you got all riled up about.
Also, it's not just with me, no one is taking anything about this game seriously, that's why no one asked around even before I came here and that's why 1 cool mod comes out only every 5 years (statistically).
Most would who do care would take the extra precaution to make sure of everything without anyone even telling them.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 29, 2012, 05:58:24 pm
@dathinvaderzim: Were some content not under the CC free licence, we would know because they wouldn't be in the Ur-Quan Masters Project, which is already a derivative work. They stand since a decade without being pushed around by lawyers because they never broke the terms of TfB, and TfB stands because they didn't release anything they don't own.

The fact that so many people think you're stupid is because many of them spent a sizeable amount of their lifetime loving Star Control and getting informed about it, while suddenly you barge in smartassing with your zero knowledge, demanding to do something you only assume they didn't do already, maybe a hundred times over. All of this because of the highly professional legal advice of your trustworthy, yet totally invisible programmer friends. How are we supposed to take you seriously then? But wait, let's play by your logic, since it seems the shorter solution to the problem you cause. Actually I conversed with our great, omnipotent creator of the universe who knows every programming language plus one, and he has entrusted a message to me to deliver to You. Here it is:

Quote from: God
Hi Steve! I'm very sad to see that your beliefs led you into another conflict with people you can't even see. You know you're not right, and more importantly I know you're not right. You lack the experience and the knowledge to have anything to say about license, game development, people in general or how the world I created works. We both know that such wisdom are not granted to an ex-janitor at Human Head, and you're not even skilled enough to design the bricks for Tetris. I know reality is scary, but you have to throw away your false convictions, you have to stop making up stories and insulting the intelligence of fellow men, because that's not a honest way to converse, and dishonesty won't bring you closer to My Realm. Instead you should listen and learn what these kind people say to you, because they want to empower your soul with facts, so it can meet me in it's full glory after the end of your mortal existence. This is also the most logical thing to do. How do I know? I created logic.

In short: stop fighting, admit your defeat, and salvation will be yours!

Amen!

Say "Amen", Steve!


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 29, 2012, 06:43:52 pm
Quote from: God
Hi Steve! I'm very sad to see that your beliefs led you into another conflict with people you can't even see. You know you're not right, and more importantly I know you're not right. You lack the experience and the knowledge to have anything to say about license, game development, people in general or how the world I created works. We both know that such wisdom are not granted to an ex-janitor at Human Head, and you're not even skilled enough to design the bricks for Tetris. I know reality is scary, but you have to throw away your false convictions, you have to stop making up stories and insulting the intelligence of fellow men, because that's not a honest way to converse, and dishonesty won't bring you closer to My Realm. Instead you should listen and learn what these kind people say to you, because they want to empower your soul with facts, so it can meet me in it's full glory after the end of your mortal existence. This is also the most logical thing to do. How do I know? I created logic.

In short: stop fighting, admit your defeat, and salvation will be yours!

Amen!

Amen!

1 cool mod comes out only every 5 years (statistically).

So, you're telling me that there have been two "cool" mods of UQM? Define "cool", because I would contradict that. I can think of five very cool mods off the top of my head: the balance mod, EP's "crazy" mod, P6014, UQM Extended, and UQM+.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Lukipela on March 29, 2012, 07:47:53 pm
I was working an another version, but I specifically did not want to copy everything from sc2, I wanted to make my own, but if it is true that every single thing is somehow absolutely 100% free in every way shape and form, then I'm going to call them and see about maybe using the coding.

Man this just gets better. Please call them, I can imagine the conversation where you confusedly explain that you know all about this "copyright" and "licensing" stuff and then go on to ask them if you can use the work they've licensed under a non-commercial clause for your commercial game. Cause, you know, copyright is binary. Either it's all free for every use for everyone or it's not free for any use ever. Please don't tell your programmer friends about this thoery though, they might mock you ever so slightly.

Quote
Whatever that link it, is doesn't seem to do anything

You not understanding and it not doing anything is the same of course. You are such a delectable little imp my dear!


Quote
and it said 1992, which is before 2002, yet the star control 2 source files are in something titled the Uq-Quan masters. But wait, I thought the altered version of the Ur-Quan masters didn't come out until 2002...something went wrong. They must have illegally put their logo on it before it was actually legal because they had anticipated it something would change and that no one involved would find it in time for anything.

I love this. Seriously. You're building an amazing theory here and I would love to see it illustrated somehow. After all, it is a much simpler explanation that the creators of Star Control screwed up their copyright illegaly to make it legal to move back in time and put their new logo on their old logo to nefarious intents than it could be that you don't actually know the name of the original game you already admitted you know nothing about. You're on to something here I think. You should totally call up someone who might have been around at either of those dates and ask them about jiggawatts.

Quote
But, the fact that I repeatedly said "I would call" or told you guys to "check to make sure" and yet no one has checked nor have you just quietly waited tells me that this isn't very serious to any of you since the responses to those actions would have solved this topic, so there's also a good chance many of you are lying about various things and don't actually care, in which case I might as well just do this for fun if I'm really board.


Again, I love the cheekiness here. It takes a strong stomach to argue that a game released 10 years ago on the behest of the content owners and original creators according to their new licensing is probably just an illegal shady pirate version. Almost as good as the fact that you think you're arguing with the creators of said rerelease rather than just random people on their forum. It's an nice touch. I mean sure, for an important person like you the creators of UQM who are clearly credited both on site and in game would don totally different names. That's just sense squared, you little rouge.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: fossil on March 30, 2012, 01:17:28 am
Jumping in on the apparent trolling bandwagon here. It is just such an outlet after the day job.  ;D

@dathinvaderzim: Please allow me to illustrate why it is very hard to take your claims seriously. Having otherwise demonstrated a reasonable command of the English language, you say things like this:
... re-use some of the coding ...
... can't copy coding from it ...
... if the coding was made from scratch...
I already own the Ur-Quan masters... I can't read the files...

Now, this informs every other real programmer in the world that you are not a programmer. I will let you figure out why. It is just more fun that way.

-12 Karma for
Code:
The following post, "Re: Kickstarter?" by onpon4 has been reported by dathinvaderzim on a board you moderate:

http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5193.msg69007#msg69007

The reporter has made the following comment:
Obvious trolling

Code:
The following post, "Re: Kickstarter?" by oldlaptop has been reported by dathinvaderzim on a board you moderate:

http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5193.msg69009#msg69009

The reporter has made the following comment:
Now he's even trolling when he didn't even link me to the proper thing.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 30, 2012, 04:17:18 am
Apparently they illegally put the title on their game and said everything was theirs on the internet before they had all the rights to everything, so it's technically illegal, but it hasn't made any money, and accolade officially no longer has  the coding rights, so it's not worth suing over. But because of this, I will not use it;s coding for my own game because that will be sold for making money, even if it's a sponsor, I can't.

By the way, I know the files are source files, even if I wasn't a programmer I would be able to see the similarity between the names in those files and the names of the files in my actual PC version of the Ur-Quan Masters, but I can't read them for some reason.

I'm done with this site anyway, I only came here for a couple questions.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Death 999 on March 30, 2012, 04:23:17 am
Thinking more carefully on it, I was wrong to compare dath to Karkat. I think Equius is a closer parallel.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 30, 2012, 05:22:19 am
By the way, I know the files are source files, even if I wasn't a programmer I would be able to see the similarity between the names in those files and the names of the files in my actual PC version of the Ur-Quan Masters, but I can't read them for some reason.

You're a programmer, you say? What languages are you most familiar with, out of curiosity?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: player1 on March 30, 2012, 09:34:49 am
Apparently they illegally put the title on their game and said everything was theirs on the internet before they had all the rights to everything, so it's technically illegal, but it hasn't made any money, and accolade officially no longer has  the coding rights, so it's not worth suing over.

Question to everyone reading this thread:
Anyone having any clue what dathinvaderzim is talking about?


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Kwayne on March 30, 2012, 10:16:34 am
I think he's composing a sentence-looking thing of words he doesn't understand, like: "illegally", "internet", "everything", "technically", "coding", "rights", "officially", "suing"


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: dathinvaderzim on March 30, 2012, 11:50:31 pm
I think he's composing a sentence-looking thing of words he doesn't understand, like: "illegally", "internet", "everything", "technically", "coding", "rights", "officially", "suing"

I think it means I was right to be cautious and confused and that you can suck a cock.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: Admiral Zeratul on March 31, 2012, 01:18:19 am
You are obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I fully expect you to disregard this post and continue the circus act that you have chosen to call "giving us advice". Nevertheless, here it goes. Perhaps it will provide someone else reading this thread some amusement.

I'm done with this site anyway, I only came here for a couple questions.

I think he's composing a sentence-looking thing of words he doesn't understand, like: "illegally", "internet", "everything", "technically", "coding", "rights", "officially", "suing"

I think it means I was right to be cautious and confused and that you can suck a cock.

What happened to being done with this site? This only confirms my belief that you are trolling.

Besides, when I read your posts on this topic, the word "cautious" is the last thing that comes to mind. There are only so many times you can claim ignorance. After being repeatedly rebuked, you have not ceased your highly obnoxious behavior. Every rude remark you receive at this point is entirely warranted. In fact, I commend the others responding to your nonsense for their patience.

In other words, you are wrong. Dead wrong. The English language as a whole is insignificant to describe just how wrong you are. Even if I did take the effort to do so in full, the meaning would be lost in transmission. Rather, I take solace in the fact that people like you are rare. Very few trolls achieve the level of comical ignorance that you have.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: onpon4 on March 31, 2012, 01:28:16 am
I think it means I was right to be cautious and confused

Right to be confused? Huh? You're saying you were confused on purpose?

and that you can suck a cock.

You're using a childish expression, I see, but even worse, you didn't even say it right. It's "suck my dick", not "suck a cock". "Sucking [someone's] cock" is a different expression entirely.


Title: Re: Kickstarter?
Post by: meep-eep on March 31, 2012, 02:31:30 am
It seems that nothing good will come from this thread anymore. Time to lock it.
If anyone still feels like talking about Kickstarter, they can make a new thread.