The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I'm kinda board with the 25 ships, are there any mods or new ships or anything to download?

Have you checked out Project 6014? Even if it is still a demo, there are a few new ships in melee.

You may also want to look at Elvish Pillager's Crazy Mod (dramatically alters melee, including very different ships), and TimeWarp/TW-Light (was once a fan sequel project, ended up only making a melee clone with many ships). All this stuff is indexed and linked at the PNF: http://star-control.com/

The balance mod could be different enough that some ships you didn't like become interesting again.

That project thing is pretty small... is there any way to make it bigger? I don't care if the quality is a little lower, I just wanna be able to see things.

Read The Fine Setup Menu :)

Also, what's the deal with the orz? They were originally from some other dimension, then developed wormhole technology and switched dimensions with the androsyn and plan to take over this dimension?

Also if this project isn't finished I might be able to help with some art, I know photoshop pretty well, in fact I might be able to make some planetary skins,

filter -> clouds -> image -> adjustments -> gradient map -> find something that works -> filter -> noise -> add gaussian monochromatic noise -> flexify 2 -> save all the different angles as transparent optimized pngs.

No-one really knows, and that's kinda the point. As I recall, they were supposed to be ambiguous.

It's wierd that it seems ambiguous because based on their context, they almost certainly came from the same extra dimension as the arilou and swapped places with the androsyn, which would explain the arilou's dislike for them, but I don't get if they are good or mycon-neutral. They probably not evil like the lurg or ur-quan.

I don't think there's any grounds to call them evil. I don't think they should be regarded as good either, though.

sorry, forgot to put a "not" in front of evil.

Frankly, I can't see the Ur-Quan as evil either. They're heavily misguided, and insane, and stuff like that, but "evil" doesn't seem to apply to them.

The Lurg could be anything, since we know next to nothing about them.

Now, the Dnyarri... those I might be able to see as evil.

I suppose ur-quan aren't evil if they were solely trying to protect other races from the khor, any maybe the khor aren't evil if it's just some religion, but if you look at right now, even though terrorists don't consider themselves evil, many others do.
Lurg are evil, I know that type of plot, even Mass Effect has it. They clearly have no regaurd for the sanctity of life seeing as how they genetically engineer it for whatever purpose they want to gain power.

Uh, no, they're not trying to protect other races from the Kohr-Ah. They're trying to protect themselves from the perceived threat of other races.

Again, they Kohr-Ah are insane and think it's the only way to protect themselves.

I don't see how a parallel with Mass Effect is relevant here?

Genetic engineering implies a lack of regard for sanctity of life now? That doesn't sound right. Still, such a lack of regard doesn't necessarily mean evil, either. Moreover, we haven't actually seen that they lack this regard yet. So I don't think we have enough evidence to say the Lurg are evil.

How about the fact that the captain of the Earth starbase calls them evil?
Your arguments for evil or not evil don't work exactly, because there is no universal frame of reference, something will always be good to one thing and evil to another.

I don't recall Hayes calling anyone evil; can you find the exact quote? It's quite possible that I just forgot.

Ok well I'm not going to play the entire game again just to find a quote, it's possible I might be remembering it wrong too, but you'd think with all the talk of hating enslavement and wanting to defeat the ur-quan he would have called them evil.
Also, what about the Lurg genetically engineering a ship just so it can fight or that they said that the human race means nothing to them?

http://www.sa-matra.net/quotes/
http://uqm.stack.nl/diff/arilou.html

Well, I didn't find the world evil, guess I just musta thought he implied it.
But, we can all agree those blobbies are evil.

One of the great things about Star Control IMO was that there was no actual evil beyond the Dnyarri that we didn't get much insight into, just tragic events. No one was bad just because. I fully expect the Lurg to be nasty, but to have twisted reasons of their own for doing what they do.

I kindof agree with that holistic view too, but it's hard to image that in the game other species wouldn't call other species evil.

The Ilwrath insisted that they were evil... only the Chmmr seemed all that reticent to label people evil.

The Ilwrath could merely be acknowledging that relative to outside species that they are considered evil.
The chmmr are weird, I think they lost emotions or something when the robots merged with the chenjesu, although it might be strange for rocks to have emotions too, but they were called benevolent and even helped those zoq guys.

Other species could have different definitions of evil. With the Ilwrath, evil doesn't seem to be so much as we label it, for them its just a way of living, and thye obviously know that other species don't agree with that way of living.

I did go through Haye's quotes, searching for "Ur-Quan", and didn't find anything that I thought implied it. And I'm not sure why you're suddenly bringing in the Umgah...?
Agreed.

I wasn't making that argument though. Certainly lot of species in SC would call the Ur-Quan, Ilwrath, Kohr-Ah and others evil. but none of those species are defined as a one-dimensional bad guy. They don't do things "just because they are evil". Even though we don't agree with them or their actions, they don't do those just because they are "evil". They do them for what they believe to be good reasons.

Well, the Ilwrath *are* defined as a bunch of one-dimensional bad guys, by their own proud admission! Of course, they're more of a parody of the cookie-cutter Evil Alien Race than anything else.

Moreover, Hayes suggested that they might be one of the races it would be easiest to ally with!

The Ilwrath? I don't recall. He did say that that it was too bad the Umgah fell so early since he felt that they would have gotten along with them. When you ask about the Ilwrath, though, Hayes just talks about how scary they are, and when asking how to deal with alien races, Hayes gives Ilwrath, Androsynth, and VUX as examples of races that you're probably not going to have a peaceful encounter with.

Yeah except for the whole "Well doing Evil is considered Good in our culture" bit which doesn't actually make them evil. Just very very confused in a lethal way.

I think the obsession with torture qualifies them as evil.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/mm/the_fallacy_of_gray/

Good point and interesting blog. Thanks for the link!

Well what if they are naturally that way? It's not really evil, it's just how they naturally live, a part of nature of you will. Even if they weren't naturally that way, it's still something their society decides is the right way to live.

Just because a society decides something is right doesn't make it good. Assorted Earth cultures have 'decided' at different points in history that slavery, cannibalism, torture, human sacrifice, and other adorable practices are 'right', but I'm pretty sure most people would call that evil.

Moreover, I think there is an objectively defineable system of metaethics, and every valid system of ethics that can be constructed from that system will decry gleefully torturing innocents.

Well technically working isn't "good" because it sues up vast amounts of your time and energy and causes stress. Obviously their fine with how their society works. There's no universal "right" thing, much like how there's no universal time.

There is however, a Universal "Gun"thing that I can happily use to spread my universal idea of "Destruction"  throughout the Ilwrath's Universal idea of "living" as to further perpetuate my idea of making them universally "dead"  ;D

Way I see it, the universe smiles upon me  8)

Not sure on that one. They seem to be torturing because they feel it's the right thing to do, which certainly isn't good, but may not be evil either.

As for your fallacy link... that was interesting to read. I don't think I'm doing that though. I'm not denying that what the Ilwrath or the Ur-Quan or the Kohr-Ah do is dark; I'm merely saying it's not black. Perhaps it's not a useful thing to say, though (it's kinda the opposite of saying "But it's not perfect", I guess). I dunno.

Well what if some species don't think death is bad, like those little furry guys from the failed star control 3?

I thought the Ilwrath commit deeds that are evil by their own standards. They're religious zealots, obsessed with the thought that they must be evil -- as it is the demand of Dogar and Kazon -- so they're stubbornly refusing to admit the paradoxical nature of their own statement "we are evil!"

I would imagine that a species which doesn't think death is bad has a very good chance of dying out. I have no idea who the "little furry guys" are.

In this case consuming an other sentient being -- with it's consent -- is beneficial to the survival and well being of both species. I'd call it necessary evil.

Back to the Lurg a bit:

As I know the Lurg Prawn is an animal (in a classical sense) made into a military vessel. Repurposing an other lifeform in itself is either not necessarily evil or a necessary evil. Probably Lurgs use nastier methods than humans who breed horses or war elephants for military use, cows to provide more milk and more meat, dogs to make them specialized for different tasks. All the species we deliberately altered have a better chance of survival solely because we need them. Of course we slaughter some of them without a second thought but we also keep their population on a level that we need, which is safer than the odds for tutles whose population is declining because generally we don't consider their survival beneficial to ours, so leaving plastic garbage on sea shores just slips our minds every now and then.

An honest statement. Should they have high opinions on us? Why?

Well it qualifies as a disregard for life and an entire species then, doesn't it? It seems like that would be the case top if they try to genetically engineer things to be ships. Also, why not have high praise? Without us who else would have went around the galaxy and eventually defeat the ur-quan and free many races?

Caring about the well-being of other races is not an obligation of any lifeform. Not caring about humans doesn't qualify an other race as evil. (And at least you should appreciate their efforts in honestly telling that to you.) Kangaroos, african elephants, fireants and gibbons most probably also don't give a damn about whether or not you die, they just don't drive their cars over to your house just to tell you that.

You might have a romantic view about humanity, but as I remember the human race chose (by popular vote) to be trapped under a slave shield instead of having enough freedom to liberate other species later. Other facts:

- the Earthling Cruiser was the second weakest ship in the AFS
- the technologies used to defeat the Ur-Quan were of either Precursor, Melnorme or Chmmr manufacture
- the greatest tactical contribution to defeating the Ur-Quan races was the destruction of the Sa-Matra, with a Precursor ship loaded with a Precursor-Chmmr bomb
- the destruction of the Sa-Matra was only allowed in the absence of the majority of Ur-Quan ships, triggered by the mind control powers of a Dnyarri who was kept in check with a Taalo device
- the greatest strategic contribution was made by the Chmmr, providing their Avatar ships
- the second greatest strategic contribution was made by the united Yehat/Pkunk fleet
- the only reason Hayes and Zelnick started the NAFS project was because of the promise of victory they saw in the giant Precursor vessel Zelnick had
- the Chenjesu and the Mmrnmhrm arranged a long range plan to fuse themselves into the Chmmr so they can liberate other species

So why should the Lurg have high regards of humans? By mere accident the guy who started the NAFS was a human, that's all. Humanity is not worthy of praise for the actions of one individual.

Disregard for one species, maybe, but life in general? Not necessarily. Besides, there are plenty of reasons not to have a high opinion of humans.

I can't see the "genetic engineering = lack of regard for life" argument at all. They might commonly go together, but they're not intrinsically linked.

They don't seem to consider that a particularly high accomplishment. I imagine they have hidden reasons to dismiss it as nothing but a minor victory.

EDIT: Actually, Kwayne's argument citing the relatively minor role of humans seems a better argument for this one.

Ever hear of "devil's advocate"?


But if they disregard life, then relative to the life they disregard, couldn't they easily be evil?
Just as there is no universal frame of reference for time, neither is there one for morality.

Yep. What's your point asking that?

So you said all that acting as if I didn't already know all that while I was even simultaneously talking about the relativity of morals...

And yet without Earth's industrial production capacity, the Alliance would have fallen much sooner. It's also quite likely that the Arilou never would have joined at all.


My fleet of Eluders begs to differ. ;D


Which a human had to jump through quite a few hoops to obtain, including being a favored friend of the Pkunk leadership, a shrewd negotiator with the Druuge, either very tough or very crafty with the Thraddash, and tolerant enough to put up with the Utwig constantly whining. And that's just half the bomb.


Credit where credit is due. Actually acquiring both was no mean feat, though.


Also very true.


Which, mind you, he was the only one capable of piloting, because the sentient AI that ran the ship's computer wouldn't talk to anyone else.


Which they would have been exterminated only a short while into by the Kohr-Ah if a human hadn't accelerated their timetable.

Of course, the one thing all these counterpoints and accomplishments call attention to is that Zelnick is an exceptional human, not that humanity as a whole is exceptional. But nobody else was in his unique position, either, and without him the Kohr-Ah would be ruling over an otherwise empty galaxy.

@dathinvaderzim: it seemed to me you wanted to promote the idea that genetic repurposing is an evil disregard for life, and telling others they're irrelevant qualifies one as evil. I don't make assumptions about what you know, and you reciting the same catchy sounding time-morality mantra of yours doesn't exactly inform me about that.

@Draxas, my point is that humanity in general don't deserve much admiration for their role in the defeat of the Ur-Quan.

- Earth's production capacity might have been a great asset to the Great War but it didn't take part in actually defeating the Ur-Quan. The Arilou having an interest in us is not exactly a human achievement.
- Your fleet of Eluders is max 8 ships buildt by a race that withdrew from the entire conflict, and they're still not humans. You know if you had a fleet of 8 Earthling Cruisers against the Sa-Matra they would be one of the least capable force.
- It's true that the Captain was human, but his personal deeds don't count as the achievements of his race. That would be like saying that german nation should be praised for the scientific contribution of Albert Einstein. A distasteful hijacking of personal merits.

What I think is admirable though is what the Yehat would agree with me in: humans are a species that crawled out into space by their own efforts, without help. However for me that is also doubtful because I don't have any information about how the Arilou influenced our technological development by changing our "smell".

Uh... did you play a different version of the game or something? When did this happen?[/quote]

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It's All There In The Manual (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllThereInTheManual).