Title: Strange substances Post by: Gurius on February 26, 2003, 08:27:43 pm Who will explain, what are:
- Aguuti Nodules ??? - Charon Dust ??? - Reisburg Helices ??? - Tzo Crystals ??? Are they real objects or fictitious? I can't find any links about them in whole Internet ! Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: ErekLich on February 26, 2003, 10:26:09 pm Well, Charon is the moon of Pluto...
aside from that, all of the Exotic minerals are ficticious things. That's what makes them so Exotic! Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on February 27, 2003, 02:06:52 am Antimatter is real, but you're not going to see it sitting around on planets.
Magnetic Monopoles aren't real (rather, there isn't much reason to suspect that they are, and if they are they must be really quite heavy), but at least we have an idea of what they would be like, in a way. Note that Greenish was able to tell that you were coming by his Tzo Crystal's vibrations Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: ErekLich on February 27, 2003, 06:25:55 am There's Antimatter exotic? Well, I stand corrected then.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Gurius on February 27, 2003, 02:44:06 pm But such objects as Antimatter or Magnetic Monopoles ARE real (in science fiction) !
They are well-known. But WHO or WHAT is Aguuti. Is he real scientist? What is Reisburg? Is it a place in Germany? Or human name? How are those "nodules" and "helices" looked? I am interested in this! I'm sorry, I'm Russian and havn't any association in my mind with mentioned terms. I only have an English/Russian dictionary, but it can't help me... :'( Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on February 27, 2003, 09:07:34 pm Antimatter is real in real life too. Antineutrinos are very plentiful; positrons (antielectrons) can be found around very radioactive material or in particle accelerators or in cosmic rays. In the larger particle accelerators you can see heavier antiparticles.
And when I say 'see' I really mean 'see'. Get a stream of positrons and a stream of electrons going into a magnetized cloud chamber and you really see them curving in opposite directions - it's not just a mathematical prediction. There are positively charged electrons - Antimatter! Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: ErekLich on February 27, 2003, 09:12:04 pm Okay Gurius, you know what DNA looks like?
DNA is shaped in a double helix. I have no idea who or where Aguuti and/or Reisburg is. I'm faily confident that Tzo is a made-up word. As far as Nodules go... I get the idea from talking to the Spathi that a "nodule" is something small and tasty. Beyond that I have no idea. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Chad on February 27, 2003, 10:24:01 pm It always cracks me up when people start dropping science about a science fiction game. Heck, two of the words there imply that none of this is supposed to be taken seriously 8)
Not to discourage talk about real science, it still just cracks me up ;D Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Censored on February 28, 2003, 02:24:28 am Hey I have a test about magentic and electricity fields and particle accelerators in two weeks 8)
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Culture20 on February 28, 2003, 02:32:46 am Write down Magnetic Monopolides for every answer. :P
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: EldritchEvil on February 28, 2003, 04:37:38 am Nodules are tasty egg-roll like things that are the equivalent of hamburgers.
-From the EldritchEvil database of Made Up Things (EEDMUT) (Pronounced "Eed-mut") Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Veep-meep on March 22, 2003, 09:43:49 am You guys forgot quasi-degenerate matter.
neutron stars and black holes are degenerate. There are different kinds of degenerate matter too. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Vee-R on March 22, 2003, 10:48:17 am WordWeb has this to say about "Nodules":
"(mineralogy) a small rounded lump of mineral substance (usually harder than the surrounding rock or sediment)" Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 21, 2003, 06:17:06 am Mmm noodles. Seriously, that's what I figured them things were the first time I ran across them.
Seriously, they're all likely made up information, but I like making up my own little mental stories about them. Forgive me for forcefeeding them to you all. Tzo Crystals are (based on Greenish' commentry) crystals that have the unique receptivity towards temporal phenomenon. They are probably rather useful for predicting probable events. I imagine the MetaChron is made up of them. Who knows for sure what Charon Dust is. It seems like superdense material leftovers from a star that went supernova. Material that is so incredibly packed as a result of intense gravitational forces. Reisburg Helices... sounds like very rare naturally occurring mineral phenomena that is composed of incredibly tough and rigid yet light material, likely transparent in the form of the Aqua Helix. It is probably shaped in the form of helices (hence the name) and is the stellar equivalent to a super-plastic. Super duper light, yet super duper durable and rigid. Aguuti Nodules? Bits of ore that have prime amounts of a mineral/metal that has superconductor properties? When refined, would have the ability to function as a room temperature superconductor? Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on April 21, 2003, 08:51:51 pm Quote Who knows for sure what Charon Dust is. It seems like superdense material leftovers from a star that went supernova. Material that is so incredibly packed as a result of intense gravitational forces. Well, that would be degenerate matter... Since we have never seen any, there might be some hysteresis that allows it to retain some super-dense properties even when the pressure has been released. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 22, 2003, 05:47:42 am Well, what with degenerate matter often being found on semi-habitable worlds, I figured the stuff was merely the rotting remnants of exotic alien species that could be used to re-seed a planet with life.
But then again I am no physicist. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on April 22, 2003, 08:08:06 am I thought that too. Of course, why rotting remnants would be exotics confused me. Then in astro-phys 211, I found out...
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 22, 2003, 09:41:12 am So enlighten me, Enlightened one!
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: GermanNightmare on April 22, 2003, 05:36:24 pm Quote Nodules are tasty egg-roll like things that are the equivalent of hamburgers. -From the EldritchEvil database of Made Up Things (EEDMUT) (Pronounced "Eed-mut") Maybe you should rename your database after all - spoken fast, something like "Eat Mud" appears. Bon appétit! Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: GermanNightmare on April 22, 2003, 05:43:56 pm Quote Well, Charon is the moon of Pluto... ...named after the ferryman of the dead across the river Acheron thus entering the afterlife. If you can't pay for the trip or don't have a reservation by being buried or burned in the correct way, you'll be wandering the shores of the river Styx for a hundred years. Charon is an old man, maybe he's already falling apart (or the dust is out of his ferry? After all, all those dead, buried and burned people are gonna leave a whole mess in his boat! Once a week he cleans it and sells the Charon Dust off?) Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 23, 2003, 04:37:47 am Or maybe it's the charred remains of lifeforms that used to inhabit the planet before something occurred to incinerate the planet's surface.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: EnjoyTheSauce on April 23, 2003, 04:47:45 am But then Charon Dust would be composed almost entirely of materials extremely common to the world it's found on...I theorize that it's helpful in building hyperspace drives. Not necessary, mind you, but it makes it so much easier.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 23, 2003, 05:58:19 am Hey, you know. All we can do is theorize. They're fictional minerals we're talking about here, after all. It's just fun to make up playful stories, as outlandish as they may be.
Be afraid, sometimes my mind concocts odd little explanations. Like, these exotics are the eggshells for a space dragon! ...or as GN would put it, they're giant M&Ms filled with bountiful chocolate goodness! Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: GermanNightmare on April 23, 2003, 12:43:34 pm Yummy!
The sound the lander makes when taking those in supports that feeling, too! Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 24, 2003, 12:22:15 am True, true... it makes a slurping sound similar to that of slurping up M&Ms..
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: GermanNightmare on April 24, 2003, 04:34:49 am Mmmh, Mmmmmmmmmhn - Slurp, slurp! I like chocolate!
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Omni-Sama on April 25, 2003, 02:46:41 am I think it's obvious that the 'slurpy' noise the lander makes when it picks up stuff is just the giant straw sticking out the bottom end. They get all the crewmembers in the landing pod to put their mouths around a huge precursor straw and then suck those darn things inside the cargo bay.
I thought everyone knew that. :P Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 25, 2003, 03:22:33 am *shudders at things like hydrochloric acid and sulfuric acid*
They must have loads of fun with Helium though... Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Lukipela on April 25, 2003, 03:26:32 am Yuo've got it all wrong ;) Have a look at
http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1046242496;start=10#10 It's explained very simply over there :) As for straws, that's only used when they are collecting alcohol. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 25, 2003, 03:39:33 am You know, each resource is considered a kiloton... Which if my pathetic sense of memory serves me correctly, is a thousand tons... which is 1000 x 2000 pounds... which is bacially 2 million pounds.
Even if you found ONE resource point worth of alcohol exotics somewhere in the galaxy, I think you'd earn the eternal gratitude of the entire starbase... Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Lukipela on April 25, 2003, 03:44:54 am Nope. I'd finish off one Kiloton on the way home. Do you think I found Quasispace, the Sun Device, or the Ilwrath homeworld through searching? I was so bleedin drunk that the ship just sverved back and forth.
When the Quan hail me, it usually goes something like: "Attention Human! You are in direct violation of... hey! slow down, where do you think you're going??? Holy Kzer-Za, he's heading right for us, turn turn turn!! Phew, that was a close one... What? He turned around? coming back? Singing Auld Lang Syne? everyone to the lifeboats!!! Save yourselves you fools!!" This has been quality Lukipela humor. In the case that you have not enjoyed it, rest assured that there is something badly wrong with you, and you are in need of immediate treatment. Preferably electrical such. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 25, 2003, 03:46:50 am Wow. 2 million pounds of booze in one sitting. Tell me, where did you get that bionic liver? Oh wait, don't tell me. Your dear friends the Umgah.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Lukipela on April 25, 2003, 03:49:08 am God bless dere liddle hearts. Dey may be squekay, but dem fellows sure know liver transplantation, dats fer shure.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: GermanNightmare on April 25, 2003, 06:08:29 am Quote This has been quality Lukipela humor. In the case that you have not enjoyed it, rest assured that there is something badly wrong with you, and you are in need of immediate treatment. No need for any kind of treatment here: Reading it has been a treat though! Man, this is great! I do remember your "Super-Heated Magnetic Liquification System"TM - that was another really good thread we kinda took hold of, huh? As for you, KP, I'm really glad you're around! I'd go ahead and share my 2 million pounds gladly with you! [Editor's note: KP, short for Kohr-Ah_Primat, pronounced like the short form of the drink "Caipirinha" - Caipi - consisting of 1 kiloton of limes, three huge mountains of white cane sugar, 5 kilotons of Cachaca and a polar ice-cap of an untouched class-M planet] You wouldn't believe how light-headed I was travelling yesterday... Way out there (and it wasn't all booze that did the trick - I even would've gone 1 on 1 in the ring with an Ur-Quan fighting the ZFP's Galactic Gladiators, my Syreen being my coach and don't forget about the Thraddash guarding the ring... LP, you must've encountered the Ur-Quan fans heading for the tournament - no wonder they didn't make it there until round four! P.S.: My appointment with the "Umgah Clinic for Bionic Liver Implants for Humans" comes up next week ;-) Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 26, 2003, 08:41:41 am Why thank you GN! *curtseys with a flourish*
White cane sugar! Sounds like my kinda drink! Yeah I know what you feel like. Today I feel so chipper as to willingly go participate in a women's kickboxing tournament... Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: captain_kirk on May 08, 2003, 09:43:54 am :o :o :'(
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 05, 2013, 03:20:01 am Some substances are real, some substances aren't. Tzo crystal obviously aren't real, and I've never of Aguuti Nodules, personally I think it should be renamed to "superfluid" since that's a more scientific thing that people have heard of, or "string matter" like a concentration of those strings from string theory. Degenerate matter is real, it is the point where normal matter is compressed so much that electrons cannot occupy lower energy levels and change their orbital structures to very weird shapes to compensate for the close proximety. At this point electrons tend to form a fluid rather than a solid and form a superfluid, while neutrons have interacting nuclear forces and gravitational forces, but also have a much smaller radius than electrons and so can be condensed more and form a more crystalline solid. After neutron degeneracy there is a predicted quark-degenerate matter, and after that scientists don't know what happens because that's when a black hole starts forming. The particles don't get expelled, yet they cannot exist at that high of a density in any form of matter we know of today, so they either must combine to form another particle with different oscillation modes that are sustainable in that high of an energy or they must interact with the fabric of space in same way with extra dimensions to explain why they aren't crushed out of existence.
Magnetic monopoles are not real, they are a fictional object prodicted to exist but never proven. What happens is no matter how many times you break a magnet apart, there are always two poles to each piece you break. Even individual electrons and protons have di-pole characteristics. The predicted magnetic monopoles are exactly as they sound, matter that somehow doesn't have two poles, but instead only has one pole. Some other exotic matter I think that should be thrown in are as I said before superfluid, but also there should be anti-gravity crystals, or crystals that distort space and interact with higg's bosons in a manner opposite of gravity. Technically that doesn't really make sense and can't really exist because that would mean you are creating a repulsion of Higg's bosons via some kind of field, however gravity is only measured through the posetive interaction of other matter, so if there is no other matter around the anti-gravity crystals there's really nothing to "push away", you can't have less than 0 higg's particles in space, you can only 0 higg's or increased densities of coupling. The game however, already assumes magnetic monopoles exist and so it might as well assume anti-gravity crystals exist. There is also another thing that could maybe exist which is imaginary energy and imaginary matter. As strange as it sounds, as it turns out there is sort of a whole flip-side to reality that is created by th mathematics of imaginary numbers which you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number The virtual particles that carry forces between particles consist of imaginary energy which is why they are not measured as having physically real existence until they already interact with something through a coupling mechanism in an oscillation field which combines imaginary components of the imaginary oscillation of both the virtual particle and the parent or daughter particle it is interacting with, and the same goes for Higg's Bosons. In a way, billions of particles around us exist in a semi-real manner, but the game could perhaps have another type of degenerate matter that is somehow a concentration of this imaginary energy/matter that is going through phases of fluxtuation through interacting with real reality which allows it to be detected as an anomaly. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Alvarin on August 11, 2013, 11:24:17 pm ...Degenerate matter is real... At this point electrons tend to form a fluid rather than a solid... Nice thread necromancy. Anyhow, REAL electrons aren't solid or liquid. These terms just do not apply... Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 11, 2013, 11:30:54 pm ...Degenerate matter is real... At this point electrons tend to form a fluid rather than a solid... Nice thread necromancy. Anyhow, REAL electrons aren't solid or liquid. These terms just do not apply... Electrons themselves aren't a solid or liquid, but a collection of them in a degenerate state can form a substance that unlike a solid has no definite form, but unlike a gas does not expand indefinitely, making room for a more in-between state which we know as a liquid. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 13, 2013, 03:56:39 pm In particular, electrons constrained tightly in 2 dimensions can form a Luttinger Liquid, and if constrained in 1 dimension under a high magnetic field, the resulting quantum Hall states can form a liquid.
Now... superfluids aren't really raw materials. It's just a bunch of superchilled atoms which happen to have an even number of neutrons and don't form crystals at low temperature, which basically means... He(4). Quote Degenerate matter is real, it is the point where normal matter is compressed so much that electrons cannot occupy lower energy levels and change their orbital structures to very weird shapes to compensate for the close proximety That's an inaccurate way of putting it. Electron-degenerate matter is characterized by things being packed together so tightly that the electronic states are determined nearly entirely by quantum confinement, with a trivial contribution from local potentials (neutron-degerate matter is the same thing but with neutrons). This means that the structures are in fact the least weird possible: they're basically particle-in-a-box states, which are very simple, and not potentially complicated orbitals. Fake... you addressed at least four distinct topics in one paragraph. Please, split things up at reasonable points. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 13, 2013, 04:18:46 pm It's not exactly a raw material but neither is degenerate matter or Tzo crystals or Aguuti nodules.Theoretically it "can" theoretically occur naturally, you can hold it in a vile and keep it that way as long as it remains cooled and there aren't any micro-cracks, and scientists are trying to use it for both quantum and new fiber optic computers. However, just like with cold fusion, there may be a away to stimulate those quantum effects without a substance being super cold anyway.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 13, 2013, 10:56:11 pm ... >.<
I tried. I really tried. Fiber optic computers with superfluids? Cold Fusion???? We really need a good Star Control facepalm. Since I could find none... (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121118102342/mlp/images/thumb/7/76/Rainbow_Dash_facehoof_S3E3.png/320px-Rainbow_Dash_facehoof_S3E3.png) Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 13, 2013, 11:32:10 pm As if you a actually had any authority to discredit those things. Google announced they were coming out with a fiber optics computer and scientists are being funded to create quantum computers, the prototypes of which used superfluid to create a dense enough field to slow down light (not relativistically) so that it can be analyzed, and then on top of that some Japanese or scientists made progress with the instantaneous transportation of light particles using entangled particle systems. And then cold fusion has been worked on for a long time, there's been progress with some kind of titanium alloy. People don't seem to understand that it's the same as normal fusion with the oscillation modes changing such that the boundaries overlap enough that nucleons form stable gluon bonds, the difference is that cold fusion should be more efficient because your suppose to be able to use lasers to ionize nucleons so that they have enough energy to form a larger nucleus which can theoretically be done at room temperature. It's not limited to lasers but its suppose to be one of the most efficient ways so far, the problem is its not efficient enough.
By the way super-fluids aren't JUST chilled atoms, they are child atoms with at least 7% of the atoms existing in a state of constant entanglement which is enough to give the entire super-fluid substance the visible properties of correlation. Super-fluid helium itself is friction-less, which can be used to create a perpetual motion device and it can fall through micro-cracks only nano-meters wide, a truly unique substance that should be harnessed. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 14, 2013, 04:18:48 pm Google can announce a fiber optic computer, that's fine. We work with superfluids in my lab, that's fine too. You don't make fiber optic computers with superfluids, is my point.
Cold Fusion has been worked on for a long time, and never been convincingly replicated. My poking around on the web turned up nothing to do with titanium alloys, but I did see something with hydrated nickel. That was utterly bogus as a demonstration. I wouldn't have been convinced by that as a classroom demo if it were accepted science. No gamma ray detector, no neutron detector, just excess heat which could have been snuck in through doctored power cables. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 14, 2013, 05:09:35 pm Google can announce a fiber optic computer, that's fine. We work with superfluids in my lab, that's fine too. You don't make fiber optic computers with superfluids, is my point. I don't think it was titanium specifically, but it was some kind of "ti" starting alloy that I can't remember the name of, titanium, tritium, tri-strontium. You were right about the nickle hydrogen reactor as NASA had some development with that recently, i'm thinking it was "tritium" since I found this http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022072896049388 but I know it was something else, it was some kind of tri...oxide compound containing a metal which i thought was titanium, though there was a Thorium reactor that never got developed because Nixon preferred nuclear reactors, maybe that had something to do with it. Cold Fusion has been worked on for a long time, and never been convincingly replicated. My poking around on the web turned up nothing to do with titanium alloys, but I did see something with hydrated nickel. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 14, 2013, 05:11:20 pm You don't make fiber optic computers with superfluids, is my point. That couldn't have possibly been your point because I had never mentioned super-fluid actually used for any specific thing when you responded in that manner. Cold Fusion has been worked on for a long time, and never been convincingly replicated. My poking around on the web turned up nothing to do with titanium alloys, but I did see something with hydrated nickel. I don't think it was titanium specifically, but it was some kind of "ti" starting alloy that I can't remember the name of, titanium, tritium, tri-strontium. You were right about the nickle hydrogen reactor as NASA had some development with that recently, i'm thinking it was "tritium" since I found this http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022072896049388 but I know it was something else, it was some kind of tri...oxide compound containing a metal which i thought was titanium, though there was a Thorium reactor that never got developed because Nixon preferred nuclear reactors, maybe that had something to do with it. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 14, 2013, 05:15:43 pm You don't make fiber optic computers with superfluids, is my point. I don't see how that could have been your point seeing has how I never mentioned super fluid was used in the making of any specific thing by the time you had made that post. My point is, we have no idea how the hell we use Tzo crystals or Degenerate Matter or even really Superfluids can be used to make things like star ships, but in terms of star control obviously there's some room to be creative and make different devices and creating a wonder in exotic materials.Cold Fusion has been worked on for a long time, and never been convincingly replicated. My poking around on the web turned up nothing to do with titanium alloys, but I did see something with hydrated nickel. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 15, 2013, 10:42:29 pm Quote from: YOU Theoretically it "can" theoretically occur naturally, you can hold it in a vile and keep it that way as long as it remains cooled and there aren't any micro-cracks, and scientists are trying to use it for both quantum and new fiber optic computers. The subject of this sentence is a pronoun the antecedent of which is 'superfluids'. ~~~~ The paper you cited must not be what you were thinking of as recent work providing further evidence since it's A) from 16 years ago, and B) this was an analysis of the even earlier data attempting to figure out what might have been going on, not new evidence... so yeah, keep looking. Also, nice snip job on what I said about nickel. This wasn't anything NASA-related. This was a fraudster trying to scam the credulous out of investment money. Also, watch the triple-posting... Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 15, 2013, 10:53:12 pm No there was one last material, an it wasn't tritium, it was tri-<transition or rare earth metal>-oxide. I'll have to find it.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: CelticMinstrel on August 16, 2013, 04:19:31 pm ...no really, cold fusion isn't possible. Just deal with this fact and move on.
Incidentally, tritium is hydrogen. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 16, 2013, 04:55:42 pm ...no really, cold fusion isn't possible. Just deal with this fact and move on. Incidentally, tritium is hydrogen. It's certainly "possible", we just at the very least need too much energy to do it with our current models. The only problem with that is that you end up spending more energy than what you get out of it. Cold fusion fuses atoms in with similar mechanics to normal fusion with the atoms both being close enough and enough energy that their oscillation modes form structures that allow the more definite boundaries of the nucleons to overlap each other thus giving room for the short range nuclear force to form nuclear bonds, it's just that instead of having a giant general region of high pressure and heat, you do it in a much more localized area with more concentrated energy. Perhaps we can use magnetic traps and lasers though. to emulate those conditions, we have some pretty powerful lasers, but that ends up running into the problem with efficiency I mentioned before. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 16, 2013, 05:24:41 pm A) Fusing tritium is uninteresting from a power generation point of view - it's far FAR too rare to be useful as a fuel. He-3 fusing into Lithium-6, maybe... but that's much MUCH harder to fuse since it has two protons in each atom repelling each other. Nearly four times the barrier (nearly because there is a second electron, but most of the barrier is close enough that the screening is negligible).
B) I still don't buy it. Where's the energy to cross the barrier coming from? Nuclei are utterly terrible at tunneling, so you do need to get over that barrier. I want independent labs measuring gamma rays -- not heat, not X-rays -- coming from non-radioactive materials. They're the cleanest proof, cleaner even than neutrons since you'd expect so many more gamma rays... and gamma rays indicate large energy release, while neutrons... well, neutrons could indicate a novel path of assisted neutron escape, which would be really really awesome, but it wouldn't be cold fusion. It could even be endothermic, at least until the neutron decays... but again, not useful for power generation. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 16, 2013, 05:44:11 pm A) Fusing tritium is uninteresting from a power generation point of view - it's far FAR too rare to be useful as a fuel. He-3 fusing into Lithium-6, maybe... but that's much MUCH harder to fuse since it has two protons in each atom repelling each other. Nearly four times the barrier (nearly because there is a second electron, but most of the barrier is close enough that the screening is negligible). B) I still don't buy it. Where's the energy to cross the barrier coming from? Nuclei are utterly terrible at tunneling, so you do need to get over that barrier. I want independent labs measuring gamma rays -- not heat, not X-rays -- coming from non-radioactive materials. They're the cleanest proof, cleaner even than neutrons since you'd expect so many more gamma rays... and gamma rays indicate large energy release, while neutrons... well, neutrons could indicate a novel path of assisted neutron escape, which would be really really awesome, but it wouldn't be cold fusion. It could even be endothermic, at least until the neutron decays... but again, not useful for power generation. Well, nuclei are terrible at tunneling because they are so localized, and at that small of a localization the repulsive forces which follow some sort of inverse law with distance become very powerful. Therefore if you can make those particles more delocalized like perhaps with the high energy, perhaps weakening the repulsive forces, maybe you can proceed with the room-temperature tunneling. I'm not saying it's been perfected or that it exists in an energy efficient manner yet but there's been a lot of research put into it and there's still people going at it. It's still completely possible and tunneling via evanescent waves tunneling through electro-magnetic barriers is still similar to what happens in places like the sun, it's just that they rely more in kinetic energy to get nuclei close together, but at most all we have like that are particle colliders and the interior of the Earth. But we do have very very powerful lasers which can single-handedly start a hydrogen fusion reaction, I just don't know about sustaining it or creating a chain reaction from it, I mean it must take at least a billion watts to do something like that with a laser which is why there is a problem with efficiency that I mentioned. I wonder just how much energy we can concentrate into a single point, if we can do something not even the sun can do. Does quark-gluon plasma exist in the sun? Maybe concentrating a high enough energy into a single point would emulate having an extremely high mass and disrupt something of the fabric of space at that point is the key to being able to manipulate space to create a warp drive, a billion watts is a lot. Although then why wouldn't we see phenomena like that in neutron stars? I wonder if we can concentrate enough energy even to overcome the effects of color-confinement. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: CelticMinstrel on August 16, 2013, 07:37:44 pm I can see that your ignorance is impenetrable, so I'm not going to bother trying to explain in any detail, but it's pretty much accepted by all scientific places that I know of that "cold fusion" was essentially a hoax. It's not possible with current technology, and, given how fusion works in general, it's highly unlikely it will ever become possible. I'd be surprised if there are any non-crackpot scientists still working on it.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 16, 2013, 07:40:19 pm I can see that your ignorance is impenetrable, so I'm not going to bother trying to explain in any detail, but it's pretty much accepted by all scientific places that I know of that "cold fusion" was essentially a hoax. It's not possible with current technology, and, given how fusion works in general, it's highly unlikely it will ever become possible. I'd be surprised if there are any non-crackpot scientists still working on it. I don't think you understand fusion actually is, we can use powerful lasers to ignite a hydrogen fusion reaction which happens via the tunneling process I explained, that's scientifically a fact. However, not only have we yet to develop a sustainable chain reaction where the energy released from fusion is enough in a particular environment to create other fusion reactions so that we don't keep using a billion watts of energy per second, but as you keep ignoring, the main issue isn't that it's impossible, it's that it takes a billion watts of energy in a laser beam to do it, making the process highly inefficient with virtually no use at this time. The concept itself isn't a hoax and it's theoretically possible to create a sustainable reaction, the only hoax for now is when people say they've actually done it. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: CelticMinstrel on August 16, 2013, 07:55:09 pm I know what fusion is, thank you, and while I know a sustainable reaction is possible, since we have the sun as proof, it's not going to happen at room temperature.
Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 16, 2013, 08:02:45 pm I know what fusion is, thank you, and while I know a sustainable reaction is possible, since we have the sun as proof, it's not going to happen at room temperature. Actually I was looking around and I saw this http://www.territorioscuola.com/download/fusione-fredda/fusione-fredda-nuclear-matter-condensed.pdf I completely forgot about Muons and Tao particles! If you can introduce Muons (but preferably tau electrons) into a proton nuclei, the Muon's higher mass will more greatly inhibit the uncertainty of it's position and thus make it more localized, and because it is more localized it will form a smaller coulomb barrier that would need to be overcome which explains why the fusion process would increase in efficiency which could in turn create a sustainable cold fusion chain reaction!!! The only problem will be finding matter that has this property, perhaps helium 3 on the moon will release enough energy to make a sustainable reaction but has alterations due to it's exposure to solar wind and has a decreased coulomb barrier from Muon production, though I don't know enough about the materials on the moon. Maybe one day we can find an exotic substance, like perhaps we can one day mine the metallic hydrogen on Jupiter which will have Muonic hydrogen atoms. In the article I posted another generation of heavy fermions are referred to as "hypothetical quasi-particles". Because of the way they were described I merely extrapolated that they were Tau electrons. I think the "hypothetical quasi-particle" may have actually been a tau electron, they had Muons discovered, then hypothesized Tau electrons existed but this paper was written before their discovery. It's only natural that an electron even heavier than a Muon would increase the efficiency even more, but we'd have to somehow overcome the decay factor. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 19, 2013, 06:08:41 pm Well, nuclei are terrible at tunneling because they are so localized No, nuclei are terrible at tunneling because they have more mass. The tunneling rate follows an exponential decay proportional to several factors, but among them is the square root of the mass. So, a tunneling length for a nucleon - for the same barrier is 32 times greater than for an electron. Therefore if you can make those particles more delocalized like perhaps with the high energy, perhaps weakening the repulsive forces, maybe you can proceed with the room-temperature tunneling. Delocalizing by introducing high energy is also known as 'heating it up to millions of degrees' and no longer qualifies as room-temperature. But we do have very very powerful lasers which can single-handedly start a hydrogen fusion reaction, I just don't know about sustaining it or creating a chain reaction from it, I mean it must take at least a billion watts to do something like that with a laser which is why there is a problem with efficiency that I mentioned. Yes. It's quite simple to get hydrogen to fuse. A high-schooler built a fusion reactor in his basement. Just, it consumes way more energy than it releases. But that's all high-temperature stuff. Does quark-gluon plasma exist in the sun? Maybe concentrating a high enough energy into a single point would emulate having an extremely high mass and disrupt something of the fabric of space at that point is the key to being able to manipulate space to create a warp drive, a billion watts is a lot. Although then why wouldn't we see phenomena like that in neutron stars? I wonder if we can concentrate enough energy even to overcome the effects of color-confinement. Question 1: No, as should be clear given the natures of fusion and quark-gluon plasma Question 2 (sentence 3): because it isn't happening there. Quasi-question 3 (sentence 4): Color-confinement isn't a barrier to be broken. It's what happens when you break the barrier. it's like saying "I wonder if we can break a box into pieces small enough that none of them is the lowest one". Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 19, 2013, 06:40:45 pm Well, nuclei are terrible at tunneling because they are so localized No, nuclei are terrible at tunneling because they have more mass. The tunneling rate follows an exponential decay proportional to several factors, but among them is the square root of the mass. So, a tunneling length for a nucleon - for the same barrier is 32 times greater than for an electron. Well it's kind of impossible to actually have a smooth curve that describes quantized particles across different types of fermions, that's like trying to have a smooth curve to describe factorials. In nucleons most of the mass is in the form of energy or in the nuclear bonds themselves in relativistic mass, not in the real mass, which would explain the results in the paper I showed because protons are non-lepton fermions while leptons themselves have no interaction with the strong force which is why muonic hydrogen atoms would increase the fusion rate. The extra mass that you pointed out is stored in the very bonds that hold a nucleons together as well as in the potential electro-magnetic fields and make it harder to tunnel. However in Leptons, the extra mass has no other "bonds" to store energy in, and the result is that you have a more localized lepton takes less energy to tunnel through while its mass is stored in the form of real mass rather than energy in the potential of the electro-magnetic field repelling other electrons. Although now that I think about it, why not just have pure proton nuclei? Surely some kind of chemical is strong enough to create a chemical reaction that leaves us with enough pure protons that we can somehow trap. Although the process may be somewhat inefficient. Something else that doesn't seem to have been physically observed is a multi-flavor lepton oscillation field for electrons just like with neutrinos, but I suppose that only happens because neutrinos do not repel each other and different flavors of electrons would interact with the energy states differently. But still in that sustainable oscillation the higher flavor neutrinos don't decay, so there must be some way to have sustainable muons and tau particles as well, unless tau neutrinos decay as well but it takes too long to notice. Delocalizing by introducing high energy is also known as 'heating it up to millions of degrees' and no longer qualifies as room-temperature. But if you have a small and concentrated laser along with some new mechanism or material to lower the Coulomb barrier or really any energy needed overcome the electro-static forces then you could probably have a house-hold cold fusion chain reactor. Yes. It's quite simple to get hydrogen to fuse. A high-schooler built a fusion reactor in his basement. Just, it consumes way more energy than it releases. But that's all high-temperature stuff. For now, it takes more energy and thus is not efficient enough. Question 1: No, as should be clear given the natures of fusion and quark-gluon plasma Question 2 (sentence 3): because it isn't happening there. Quasi-question 3 (sentence 4): Color-confinement isn't a barrier to be broken. It's what happens when you break the barrier. it's like saying "I wonder if we can break a box into pieces small enough that none of them is the lowest one". Response 1: There should at least be some stray gluon plasma that forms once in a while, there is definitely the capacity for random bursts of enough energy. Response 2: You lacked such detail that saying "god did it" is literally a better explanation. Response 3: My point was that it was the type of barrier to over-come as a challenge, once you have enough energy for the nuclear bonds in nucleons to be broken then all that's left is the energy used to break apart the nucleons just ends up making more quarks and you never get an isolated quark, but "what if there was such a high concentration of energy in a small point for a long enough duration of time that even the energy in forming more quarks could not hold bonds with other quarks just created and you can finally have an isolated quark" is what I was trying to say. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 19, 2013, 09:06:53 pm In condensed matter, there are plenty of composite fermions with continuously varying energies, and this rule describes those. And yes, it's exactly as impossible as a smooth function for the factorial of n, which happens to be integral from 0 to infinity of x^n e^-x dx, also known as the gamma function of n+1. If you know integral calculus, you can see why this works for all whole numbers n and that it has a single real value for every real number down to but not including negative 1 (which is why the gamma function is shifted up 1).
But even if there were no composite fermions, your argument is nonsense. If you can derive something from underlying principles - which in this case you can - then the derivation indicates the functional dependence even if physical systems can only instantiate selected values. Quote In nucleons most of the mass is in the form of energy or in the nuclear bonds themselves in relativistic mass, not in the real mass Bonding energy is real mass. There's nothing fake about it. You can't wish it away, you can't cancel it out except by breaking the bonds. Of course, this sentence doesn't actually mean anything, which is worse than being wrong.The rest of your paragraph is much better, in that it is simply wrong instead of going so far as to be meaningless. That is not how tunneling works, not even a little bit (I work with tunneling directly on a daily basis). Proton exchange is a thing, and free protons are not a solution to fusion, which you'd know if you applied quarter-way decent physical intuition for half a second. In short, you have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to learn, I can explain, but if you're going to throw up a smokescreen of incompetently generated bullshit, there's no point in going on. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 19, 2013, 11:48:45 pm In condensed matter, there are plenty of composite fermions with continuously varying energies, and this rule describes those. I 100% guarantee you there is no truly continuous spectrum of energy in a closed atomic system. If you have a free particle in a wave packet or if you have something like beta decay with the kinetic energy being continuous, I could see what you're saying, but the quantinization of energy is the whole reason why new particle physics had to be developed to explain things like the ultra-violet catastrophe, why electrons don't spontaneously fall into the nucleus and there's even research, why only certain oscillation modes of light are measured as being emitted black bodies, of time and space being quantized as well. There's only specific oscillation modes of particles that can physically exist. Don't even try and use large quantum numbers as an excuse, that's just the distance between nodal surfaces decreasing so much we can't measure the distinction between oscillation modes which only makes energy appear continuous at larger values which in terms of research still leaves room for things like kinetic energy to be quantized. Quote In nucleons most of the mass is in the form of energy or in the nuclear bonds themselves in relativistic mass, not in the real mass Bonding energy is real mass. There's nothing fake about it. You can't wish it away, you can't cancel it out except by breaking the bonds. Of course, this sentence doesn't actually mean anything, which is worse than being wrong. which you'd know if you applied quarter-way decent physical intuition for half a second. Yeah in case you haven't noticed classical physical notions don't always mix will with atomic physics. I'm starting to think you are just flat out lying about having any experience. It's fine if you have some degree in physics which I'm sure took a lot of work and you forgot the specific implications of a few rules in atomic physics, personally I wouldn't think any less of you anyone for doing that, but there's no reason to go around trying to cover it up while also acting aggressively. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 20, 2013, 05:07:00 am Paragraph 1: you're talking about individual systems. I'm talking about building different systems. Yes, each system is quantized. The ways these systems quantize vary continuously. I'm not even talking about energy levels here - I'm talking about effective mass, which is a relationship between wave number and energy level.
Quote I'm pretty 200% sure I didn't say it can be wished away and it seems more like you have a straw-man than an argument, no one said anything about wishing anything away. you said it wasn't real. That which is real is that which doesn't go away if you stop believing in it. There's nothing fake about that nuclear binding energy and interaction energy. You're trying to draw some distinction between composite nucleons and single-particle leptons (as if leptons didn't have renormalization-group clouds), without any theoretical or experimental basis. Tunneling follows the same rules for composite particles like Cooper pairs and fractional quantum Hall sets, that are much much larger than atoms yet lighter, and are so composite that it makes nucleons look single-particle again. And those particles tunnel based on their effective mass, including all the interaction energy. Nucleons don't get any shortcuts. Quote Unless you can provide any evidence my notion is fine ... and that is why you are clearly not a scientist. Anyone's failure to provide a counterargument you accept doesn't change the validity of your idea. It works or it doesn't. Quote Yeah in case you haven't noticed classical physical notions don't always mix will with atomic physics. I'm talking about quantum intuition here, but in this particular case classical will do fine: what benefit do you derive from getting rid of your screening electrons in crossing the coulomb barrier? None. Getting rid of the electrons makes the barrier higher and wider, neither of which helps you cross in classical or quantum mechanics.Quote I'm starting to think you are just flat out lying about having any experience. PhD, University of Pennsylvania. Took quantum mechanics with Paul Langacker, Modern Quantum Optics with Jay Kikkawa, and quantum field theory with Burt Ovrut. Shall I give you my real name now? I can ask Millicent to confirm my graduation status if you want give her a call. You know a lot of bits and pieces. But they'e not integrated. Like, you seriously challenged the meaningfulness of having a square root dependence of the tunneling length on mass, based on paucity of points? We don't reject the dependencies of the Bohr Radius formula just because it's only about Hydrogen atoms. Physicists are all about that sort of thing. Because they are meaningful. You just don't have a solid enough background to see why. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 20, 2013, 06:07:08 am you said it wasn't real. Real has different contexts and obviously it wouldn't make sense if the mass magically disappeared , like for instance the actually not real and truly imaginary mass of Higgs Bosons. That being said, saying I wished it away is obviously a strawman. Quote I'm pretty 200% sure I didn't say it can be wished away and it seems more like you have a straw-man than an argument, no one said anything about wishing anything away. you said it wasn't real. That which is real is that which doesn't go away if you stop believing in it. There's nothing fake about that nuclear binding energy and interaction energy. You're trying to draw some distinction between composite nucleons and single-particle leptons (as if leptons didn't have renormalization-group clouds), without any theoretical or experimental basis. Tunneling follows the same rules for composite particles like Cooper pairs and fractional quantum Hall sets, that are much much larger than atoms yet lighter, and are so composite that it makes nucleons look single-particle again. And those particles tunnel based on their effective mass, including all the interaction energy. I'm pretty sure not interacting with the strong force makes leptons fundamentally different than quarks and these properties were discovered in particle colliders. As I said before it makes sense that lighter atoms are larger which is due largely to the uncertainty principal and why electrons are so much bigger than protons and also why higher mass leptons become smaller as you increase the mass. Tunelling may follow similar rules, but tunelling itself isn't the issue, the issue is the force needed to overcome the electro-static repulsion between hydrogen atoms. Muon catalyzed fusion as mentioned in the paper I posted before that you continuously ignored was also studied by scientists in the latter part of the 20th century, and the main problem with is it is inefficient because it takes too much energy to create muons to efficiently act as a catalyst, and not much more. And why are they catalysts? Because as I said before, it's their greater localization, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon-catalyzed_fusion. In a system of muon-catalyzed hydrogen atoms, it would not take as much energy for tunneling to take place even going so far as to say "effectively shields and reduces the electromagnetic repulsion between two nuclei". However you would be theoretically right with our current models if you said the kinetic energy wasn't quantized because of the infinitesimally small possible angles of which to measure a the relativistic velocity, but as we explore how time and space may be quantized it appears that could merely be due to a similar effect that appears in the seemingly continuous transition between oscillation modes of electrons involving high quantum numbers dealing with the Bhor correspondence principal except for quantized manifolds of space-time. ... and that is why you are clearly not a scientist. Anyone's failure to provide a counterargument you accept doesn't change the validity of your idea. It works or it doesn't. If you cannot provide a fallacy then logically there is no proof it is wrong and thus it is a valid possibility. Besides, as a scientist you should know scientific laws can change and that a well made theory can carry more weight. PhD, University of Pennsylvania. Took quantum mechanics with Paul Langacker, Modern Quantum Optics with Jay Kikkawa, and quantum field theory with Burt Ovrut. Shall I give you my real name now? I can ask Millicent to confirm my graduation status if you want give her a call. Here's the problem: I can cite credible sources showing what I said and that cold fusion is possible, and then you say that's all rubbish. You seem to have some kind of in depth understanding, but saying it's all rubbish conflicts with the pages and pages and pages of articles I have, which you can find more easily if you go to google.scholar.com and type in muon-catalyzed fusion. Now, I'm having a harder time believing you work in a lab every day with this stuff considering that. Maybe you just didn't understand how cold fusion worked or something or maybe i just didn't describe my points well enough, but it definitely isn't complete rubbish, it's just not efficient right now. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 20, 2013, 12:34:59 pm If you think that mass is so real, then start treating it that way.
The reason I ignored muon-catalyzed fusion is that I have no problem with it. I'm actually rather fond of it. However, I'd be shocked if it can be made practical. The other thing is, it's not what people are talking about when they say 'cold fusion'. Similarly, using lasers to superheat a tiny volume is not cold fusion. I've got no problem with that either. Hence my not arguing about it. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: FakeMccoy on August 20, 2013, 04:53:53 pm If you think that mass is so real, then start treating it that way. The reason I ignored muon-catalyzed fusion is that I have no problem with it. I'm actually rather fond of it. However, I'd be shocked if it can be made practical. The other thing is, it's not what people are talking about when they say 'cold fusion'. Similarly, using lasers to superheat a tiny volume is not cold fusion. I've got no problem with that either. Hence my not arguing about it. It "can" be cold fusion if we merely didn't need to use massive amounts of energy to create that muon catalyzation stream, but I suppose it does still need a bit of work yet. I imagine it would be even more efficient with tau electrons if they didn't decay so quickly. Title: Re: Strange substances Post by: Death 999 on August 20, 2013, 05:05:51 pm Muons decay in 2.2µs. Taus decay in 290fs.
That factor of 10 million makes a really really big difference. Muons are already not living long enough to do all that much good, and they already do a good enough job at improving the screening (while they're there) that fusion can proceed at moderate temperatures. |