The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Lets delv a bit deep inside the Ur-Quan brain shall we?

We have here:

1) An ancient race of beings that have come from a rather hostile environment.

2) Beings that, before enslavement, had serious trust issues to begin with seeing as they actually HAD predators on their homeworld that thought Ur-Quan flesh was tasty.

3) Subsequent enslavement by "You know who" didn't help things any.

4) Tentacle envy (this is purely speculative on my part.)

Okay.. So here we have these giant caterpillars with a serious groove on staying alive.  They developed community, space travel and technological skills as a means to stay alive.  I won't even get in to how if they had achieved this level of technology that they were not able to either contain or eliminate the predatory influence that dominated their very existance: Not to mention their penchiant for killing one-another.

So here we have this basically tribal society that has been geneticaly split in to subset classes and after several centuries of enslavement set lose on the galaxy.  This does not bode well.

We see here a mindset that is both highly fore-brained and yet at the same time lacks development in the low-brain areas.  My theory is this:  Take a hyperactive child with a bad temper and give it the intelligence of a genius.  Then, piss it off for a really long time... Now, it wants revenge.

What's your take on this? AND! How long do you think it would take for the Ur-Quan as a whole or in part to realise that the benefit of an alliance and the establishment of trust would do so much more good than harm?

Arcain.

Well, it's hard to say really. But the ur-Quan do have a very stong sense of honour (as man ytribal societys do), do as soon as they come to realize that the Alliance acts with honour (provided it does so!), they should be able to become members in spirit and not only in name.

However, as the Ur-Quan have a high disdain of other races, I rellay don't know how this could be borught about. Perhaps if the alliance would save the Ur-Quan from something they could not protect themselves from? (as to what this would be, it could be anything from a dnyarri to an virus of some sort, civil war or the revenge of the Faz) That would perhaps make them see that others can be "worthy" as well.

I'd say that the Ur-Quan on a rational level should be able to adapt to the Alliance (after all, they were in the Milieu as well), but on an emotional level, it may take a long time for them to overcome their defeat and their xenophobia. However, the Quan have shown themselves quite good at overcoming their primal instincts, so maybe that wouldn't be a problem?

Well, having been defeated would probably break them of their superiority complex, at least on an intellctual level - and then allowing them to maintain substantial independence could be worked out to earn some non-xenophobia.

Maybe we send in the Dalai Lama and he manages to get them to see our point of view. Oh, crud - now we need to find new bad guys.
;)

Wait...I thought the Ur-Quan DIDN'T have any predators on their homeworld.  I thought they said that on a world where you, the solitary hunter, is at the top of the food chain, the only thing you have to fear is your fellow Ur-Quan.

You can't really reason with an Ur-Quan, no matter which sub-race they are part of.

They have a very fixed mind-set: Worked for so long, can't be wrong now!
(I have seen that behavoir before, but can't put a finger on it right now?)

And I want to keep those nasty Ur-Quan as an enemy: There are so many, they fight efficiently and I like to "Blow up an Ur-Quan for..." Commander Hayes.

Ohh, hey! Maybe you are correct.  It's been a while since I've run into the Ur-Quan, so I foget if they were  the only predators, or if they were hunted.. Good point.

I don't have a copy of the text or I'd check.  I'll have to look into it further.  If anyone has any information on it one way or the other, please feel free to post it.

Thanks.

Arcain.

Basically, the Ur-Quan were the only main predators of their world, and they hunted alone.  This lead to widespread mistrust of their fellow Ur-Quan, but they somehow overcame this and advanced to the space age.  It is my personal opinion that they took to space simply to get away from one another.  While they were exploring their own solar system, the Sentient Milieu found them, and they joined up.  Due to the Ur-Quan's solitary nature, they became scouts for the Milieu, and thus, were the first to fall to the Dnyarri, as they were the first to find them.  We all know the story from there.  So, they don't really have xenophobia, but they are simply mistrustful of EVERYBODY, due to their solitary nature, and the Dnyarri mind-control and subsequent forced elimination of the only race they ever trusted and liked, the Taalo.  They trusted and liked the Taalo, of course, because they were not organic beings, and thus did not trigger the deep-rooted mistrust of all things living that the Ur-Quan have.

As for your #2 statement, I think you have the Ur-Quan confused with the Spathi there.

Personally, I doubt their superiority complex could be broken apart so easily; I'm more certain they'd find some excuse to rationalize what happened. Plus, their most sacred trophy was destroyed by an upstart human-- even if intellectually they are defeated, I doubt their subsequent rage and bitter hatred would allow them to reason things out.

After all, the Dnyarri had absolute control over them for a very long period of time, but in the end they overcame that threat despite their initial period of subjugation.

They would probably just plot some way to vindicate the blow they were dealt by the Alliance, in pursuit of the truth of the 'ideal' that Ur-Quans are above all supreme.

Well, I imagine the Kohr-Ah would, anyways. The Kzer-Za might be talked down from their rage, given that they seem mildly sympathetic to their slave races' status during and after the Doctrinal War.

The Ur-Quan were not the only predators on their world. The Melnorme say:

Since they had to compete for survival against many physically superior species the Ur-Quan evolved intelligence and tool use, in much the same way as your own species.
The confusion about whether the Ur-Quan were the only predators or not likely comes from a statement made by the Kohr-Ah:
We evolved on a hostile world, the descendants of solitary hunters.
In a world where one species is the dominant killer one's only threat is one's brother, one's sister, anyone of one's species.
Civilization did not come easily to us, we earned it.
We mastered our hatreds and murderous desires to form a mighty culture.
They evolved tool use and became the dominant killers, much as humans are the dominant killers on Earth today. An interesting note: the first sentence is repeated verbatim when the Kzer-Za respond to The Words.

Now as to the Ur-Quan's primary motivation... it's so simple that I think it's been overlooked. Fear. Yes, for all their intimidation and big starships and superior attitude, the Ur-Quan are afraid. They're afraid of ever being enslaved by anyone ever again. One could argue that their decision to undertake an endless confrontation with other species would lead one to a different conclusion. Yeah, well that would be the point. Deep down the Ur-Quan are cowards, afraid to confront their own inner demons they inherited from their ancestors.

Yeah. Now try telling that to an Ur-Quan. =)

You'd be afraid too if you were controlled by super-psychic powered brain frogs who can order you to destroy your best friends, genetically split your entire species and generally wreak havoc in the peaceful galaxy.  I don't think the Ur-Quan are fearful or cowardice towards their Dnyarri enslavement.  I think their need to enslave and supress enemy races is to ensure and prevent the event from occuring again.  The Ur-Quan don't want to find any aliens on distant planets like they did with that first Brain-toad...  I think their doctrine of enslavement is for survival, not out of emotional response to the incident... although there certainly is a lot of it.

I'm not saying I'd fare any better were I in their place. But the Ur-Quan simply never got over themselves. Yeah, it's a terrible thing to be enslaved for such a long time but it's about time someone was able to make a powerful enough alliance to smack them down and show them that they're wrong!

The very fact that they are acting to prevent the thing from happening again proves that they are fearful of it on some level. That's logic. =)

Their fear runs so deeply that it's become an instinct, a genetic memory. But one that is rooted in fear. And there is no response more emotional than that of pure, raw, uninhibited instinct.

Actually, the Kohr-Ah do fear the Dnyarri. So does the Kzer-za (since they shared fate with the Kohr-Ah). As stated by a Kohr-Ah captain, when owning the pet:


We sense... something... something ancient... a sickly smell... a chilling wind.
My ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind
but I cannot understand their words.
This feeling... a memory? It sickens us, and for the first time in our lives
for the first time in generations
We fear.

And BTW, I posted somewhere the calculation of how long ago did the Precursors disappear (about 390,000 earth(??) years) and the Ur-Quan were enslaved for several thousand years (rather than centuries). about 5000 if I'm not mistaken.

As far as I know the Precursor disappeared 300,000 years ago, and appeared shortly before that.
You're right about the Ur-quan enslavement period.

There are several problems with the idea that the Ur-quan might change their minds:
A) They are right. Really, if any other race would be either enslaved or annihilated, there is no chance that the Ur-quan would be enslaved.
B) It worked for 20,000 years. All that time, no one defeated either the Ur-quan, or the Kohr-ah (that didn't even had the Sa-matra to help them!) So after 20,000 years, what's one failure??
Not to mention that it was only the Kzer-za doctrine that failed - their slaves raised against them and defeated them.
I can see the Kohr-ah saying "I told you so" to any Kzer-za they meet. After all, dead races can't come back and kill you.

That would be a pretty valid argument for bringing over the Kzer-Za to the "Eternal Doctrine". Now there's a worrying thought....

I doubt even the Chmmr could stand against a cmbined fleet of that magnitude, once tey regrouped...

On the other hand, it could be argued that if the Kohr-Ah hadn't been going around killing everyone, the rebellion would not have had enough support to win (though this is questionable, since it didn't really come up as an argument for any one species joining the alliance, it could be true, depending on how influential the psychic vibes saying "Attack the Kohr-Ah" were on the Pkunk and Utwig)

It's funny that. You'd think, if you wnet to the Quan  spehres and learned about the whole doctrinal war thingy, you'd be able to tell all races "These guys are gonna kill you, no HAR HAR, and worse then Dogar and Kazon!" But you don't. I'd have taped the Quan transmissions, and used a caster to beam them all over the bloody place....

I think not telling other races that they're about the be completely obliterated by big black caterpillars is a better idea...  better not to spread panic when the galaxy is already such a dangeorus place.   ;D

But if you *did* tell them, you could always say, "They're unstoppable! Well, almost. I have a way to stop them, but of course, I'm only going to share it with you if you do exactly as we say."

And then you could always show them footage of individuals offering to side with them, and be obliterated instead.

If every species in the area went after the two Ur-Quan races, they'd get blown to pieces by the Sa-Matra. Hell, they wouldn't even stand a chance against the conventional fleets seeing as how the really powerful races (Utwig, Yehat, Orz) don't have enough ships. That's where the Chmmr come in. A hyperwave broadcast pleeding for such a battle would only lose the game faster right up until after the Sa-Matra is destroyed, which is kind of what happens.

Well... Allying with someone doesn't necessarily mean that you absolutely have to throw their fleets against the ur-Quan in a futile attempt...

Trying an alternative approach, you could get all these allies, get given the quest objects rather quickly, get given unlimited resources, get the opportunity to include all the different ships in your fleet, and be able to go finish the game (the same way) much quicker...

Gameplay gentleman!
Of course, I prefer it when the game give some kind of logical reason, but at the end it gameplay that counts.

Having unlimited RU, all the ships, or an even bigger better supership might SOUND nice cool and fun, but at the end it's not.

Of course, we can still guess for some kind of "logical" reason for all that... :)

You are of course entirely correct from a gameplay point of view UAF. After all, if the game went like this, all you'd need would be some recorded Kohr-Ah statements and then you'd build the final weapon, and win. Bo-ring.

owever, I think we're discussing this more from a "if this was the real world" kind of view (or at least I am), and we're just saying that there are some things that could've made the captains work a lot easier, if he hadnät been busy collecting minerals and killing Traddash all the time :)

Yeah I know, what's with that? *mining* while all this nastiness is going on?

The guy hears about Ur-Quans overrunning all of known space, and his home planet is enslaved. What's he do? Go space mining for a couple years... *Mining*

A year later, some space station newbie comes up and asks him how the war fares, and the captain shrugs.

"Don't know, been too busy collecting shiny rocks on other planets. See? Isn't it shiny? Just a few hundred more and Commander Hayes says he'll give me another turning jet for my ship! Wheee! Round goes my ride, round round!"

"Uhhh... don't you have... planets to free... Ur-Quans to kill... uhm....slave shields to tear out?"

"But, the shiny rocks! Shiny!!"

"How much longer do you expect to...collect shiny rocks? I mean, I don't imagine the Quans are going to stay away much longer..."

"Years! Years and years! Shinies!"

I want me GOOOLD!
Give me all yourr prrecious stones, give me all yourr gold!

It shines and sparrkles so nicely!
Oh, I like the way it shines, shines, SHINES!

And it's all mine! MINE!
You cannot take it away frrom me - NEVERRR!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The two of you make a terrific comedy duo. Glad to see your back to full steam GM....

But you are seriously starting to sound like Gollum, so maybe you should be a bit more careful around gold in the future? ;)

And it's not just the mining...

"So Captain, how fares the battle against he Ur-Quan?"

"Oh quite well, quite well, look at all the funny animals I've stunned and stowed into the aft cargo hold"

"Err.. How exactly are these creatures going to aid us in out battle against the dreaded Ur-Quan? They aren't even sentient!"

"But they're so cute! Look at that one, it looks like a Spathi on speed! And they twitch so adorably when we zap them... My pretties.. mmm..."

"Umm sir? The roster says that during your pursuits of these... pets, you've lost quite a few crewmembers, crewprices may begin to increase soon..."

"Oh yes, some of them can be quite feisty.. don't you worry your little head about the crew, I'äve already decided to replace them with these bee swarm kind of thingys! It's gonna be great, just me and my spacebees! Oh, we'll have so much fun, won't we my preciouses?"

Well when I play it's more like this:

"So captain, how fares the battle against he Ur-Quan?"

"Well, I've been killing tons of VUX lately. Look at all the VUX salvage parts I have in my storage!"

"Excellent captain! So you're taking out the Hierarchy allies first?"

"Allies? who... oh the VUX?? No, I just do it for the RU. It's much safer then getting down to those planets.
Although I don't think it's healthy for Fwiffo's mental health..."

Fwiffo: "VVV... VVV... VVV... VVVUX... VVV..."