The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Captain Smith on March 27, 2003, 02:49:40 pm



Title: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Captain Smith on March 27, 2003, 02:49:40 pm
An off the wall thought....it's quoted that ships can only be piloted by native captains...so how do they survive until the destruction of the ship?  Granted most ships will have multiple members of the native species...

But what about an Ur-Quan ship, if the single resident white-rod waver (look at the small pic when you launch fighters, he waves a white rod) were to die, what then?

Really wierd how inconsistent that is in the storyline...or have they made a way to make the captain indestructible until the destruction of his ship?

Heh


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Death 999 on March 27, 2003, 08:15:04 pm
But why does the strength of the captain decrease when he launches fighters? Does he rip off a pair of his legs to wrap around the fighters pilots' throats, and when they return the rejoin? That's the best story I can think of to make that make sense, and it's pretty ridiculous.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Novus on March 27, 2003, 09:09:55 pm
Quote
It is said that the Ur Quan captain is a single pilot on a single ship. The "crewmembers" in the picture of an Ur Quan vessel is a relative speaking... See it more as an overall strength of the captain here, and not as crew, like all other ships have.
The point is that every Dreadnought carries a single Ur-Quan. However, this does not rule out a crew of non-Ur-Quan. Where do I remember seeing a picture of an Ur-Quan trying to stuff a Spathi into a fighter?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Matticus on March 27, 2003, 09:33:53 pm
I think it was in the SC1 manual (which I have here somewhere). It shows an Ur-Quan with a rod and a talking pet yelling at a fleeing Spathi.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Censored on March 27, 2003, 09:55:59 pm
Don't forget that the fighter crafts "die" if they don't get back to the mothership dreadnaught in time.. so unless the crewmember wants to die out in cold space, he'd better do his job and get back to the mothership without fooling around.

besides, don't forget it's not a per-ship dominance. The Ur-Quan could decimate your home planet and easily annihilate your entire species if you don't follow orders.



--edit: did I answer the right question? hehe now I'm not even sure what it was.. :P


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Novus on March 27, 2003, 11:20:39 pm
Quote
oh, and to answer the question directly:

The captain itself might be shielded a lot. If you would build a command centre, would you build it to be the first thing to go when a ship comes under fire ?
Now, if I were building a starship, I'd place the command centre/bridge/whatever right in the middle of the ship, far from any incoming bad stuff, with doors locked from the inside, self-contained life support and so on. The only contact needed with the outside world is sensor data in and control data out. Engines and weapons would have to be in contact with the outside, so they're going to be taking some incoming hits, although most nastiness should hit armour plating of some kind.

Now, the ship is fine as long as one person is alive and well and keeping the ship until control (the captain). So why have any more people on board? The answer is simple: the ship is going to take damage every time it gets hit. Specifically, something is going to break and has to be fixed ASAP. So, everyone except the captain is off doing damage control in hazardous areas. No wonder they get killed. The captain is safe and sound as long as someone is around to adjust coolant rods in the reactor room or whatever, but if something bad happens and nobody's there to fix it... KABOOM. You get the idea.

This theory also explains why only starship captains and not the entire crew need be natives. The rest of the crew are only cannon fodder trying to put things back together when they get shot at.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Culture20 on March 28, 2003, 12:56:34 am
Quote
In case you are wondering where I got the whole 1 UrQuan per vessel thing: The Star Control 2manual:

Ur-Quan are extremely territorial and aggressive, having evolved as non-social, hunter-killers. Their territorial instincts are so strong that only one Ur-Quan is present on each Dreadnought.



In the paragraph above the one you mentioned:

Aboard ship, these
creatures cling to webbed ceilings with their back legs,
dangling down over their controls and their slave-crew
like hungry spiders.


Slave Crew.

BTW, Novus' answer sounds good to me.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Omni-Sama on March 28, 2003, 01:49:45 am
The Ur-Quan Kzer-Za use their slave races' members to crew their ships... but what about the Kohr-Ah?  Of course they don't have a hierarchy to drain slaves from.  But do they fit a whole bunch of Kohr-Ah on a ship, unlike the Kzer-Za?  Would that not cause problems when talking about their innate, biological need to kill one another?

I dunno, I usually believe that the Dreadnought is crewed by Kzer-Za only...  perhaps for the simple fact that while they may attack eachother at sight inside a ship, what's stopping them from doing it when talking to one another in space?  Well, I guess it's the Talking Pet...

I dunno, I'm just gonna believe there alot of green and black caterpillars on their ships.  It's easier that way! lol.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Captain Smith on March 28, 2003, 04:17:13 am
You all are coming across the reason I'm asking this one - I'm sure there's a completely equal chance for the captain to die in any attack than to always be the last living thing on the ship...wasn't thinking about the fighters or anything, but just in general...why is the captain always the last to go on any of the ships?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: J on March 28, 2003, 07:30:30 am
Quote
An off the wall thought....it's quoted that ships can only be piloted by native captains...so how do they survive until the destruction of the ship?  Granted most ships will have multiple members of the native species...

But what about an Ur-Quan ship, if the single resident white-rod waver (look at the small pic when you launch fighters, he waves a white rod) were to die, what then?

Really wierd how inconsistent that is in the storyline...or have they made a way to make the captain indestructible until the destruction of his ship?

Heh


You know, you just made a new plot device.
This would be great for the Timewarp project, if its single player storyline ever gets off the ground.

You could come across an Kher-Za Dreadnaugt in space sometime during the game, which the slaves on board have taken control of (either because the Kher-Za died, or because they overthrew him)

Perhaps you could perusuade them to join your team.

Hmm, an Umgah or Spathi flying an Ur-Quan dreadnaught.

hehehe


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2003, 08:17:01 am
J: I think we went over that idea already and unanimously decided that the hierarchy race best suited to leading a mutiny and taking over a dreadnought was the Yehat. I agree that a renegade dreadnought would be cool, though.

Anyway, the game works the way it does because it is much more simple to have the ship go down when all its crew are dead. Wouldn't it suck if after you lost three crew, your Chmmr Avatar went kaput because the captain died? I always thought of crew loss as an indicator of how much structural damage a ship has sustained, except crew is a more flexible term because it allows for things like the Syreen song and Orz marines.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Death 999 on March 28, 2003, 06:38:20 pm
At least as far as dreadnoughts are concerned, the ship blows up if the captain dies, simply because they don't want ANYONE to get ahold of a Dreadnought unless that person is an Ur-Quan Kzer-Za


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Censored on March 28, 2003, 11:43:15 pm
True; for example, the Dreadnaught which crashed on Alpha Pavonis was supposed to be automatically destroyed..

of course, that was so aliens wouldn't study Ur-Quan technology, but you could say that's also in case the captain dies :P

err I messed that up a bit


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 16, 2003, 11:35:28 am
As was said by Shiver, I believe crew is just meant as an indicator of 'battle damage'.

But if you really want to go with the 'damage control' theory, it seems to be the best 'plug' for the lapse of realism.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Scott on April 16, 2003, 08:34:17 pm
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The Ur-Quan Kzer-Za use their slave races' members to crew their ships... but what about the Kohr-Ah?  Of course they don't have a hierarchy to drain slaves from.  But do they fit a whole bunch of Kohr-Ah on a ship, unlike the Kzer-Za?  Would that not cause problems when talking about their innate, biological need to kill one another?

I dunno, I usually believe that the Dreadnought is crewed by Kzer-Za only...  perhaps for the simple fact that while they may attack eachother at sight inside a ship, what's stopping them from doing it when talking to one another in space?  Well, I guess it's the Talking Pet...

I dunno, I'm just gonna believe there alot of green and black caterpillars on their ships.  It's easier that way! lol.


I'm certain that thet Kohr-Ah can have multiple persons of their same species together without any problems. I mean come on... the Dynarri engineered them to be soldiers, what good is an army that cannot work together? Would you have a single black Ur-Quan trying to take a city?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 16, 2003, 10:52:13 pm
They were spacefaring long before the Dnyarri came along. I am pretty sure that 'soldiers' are pretty much used in a starship capacity, and only one Dreadnought/Marauder is really needed to siege/level a planet. Simply point them fusion bolts at the planet's surface, and tell them simply, "Surrender or die." (or in the case of Kohr-Ah, the quote goes: "Just die.")

I imagine that they aren't particularly needed in an infantry capacity.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Death 999 on April 17, 2003, 02:19:07 am
Still, a decent soldier must be capable of cooperating. Anyway, who else would it be?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 17, 2003, 02:29:36 am
Robotic drones.

And I'm sure all Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah can cooperate with their own kind. The only problem is they go into a berserk rage if there's another Ur-Quan within 10 feet of their own body, I would imagine.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: UAF on April 17, 2003, 04:54:32 am
Before the Dnyarri messed with their genes the BROWN Ur-quan couldn't stand each other, and flew in scout ships, probably with one crew per ship.
We know that the Kzer-za still have one member of the species per ship.
As for the Kohr-ah, as it was said, they can't have sentient slaves.
Also, the crew is green and effected by Syreen song, so it's not drones. I guess we're left with more Kohr-ah. As Scott said, the Dnyarri had a good reason to change them so they can live together- while scientists and leaders don't need to get along, workers and warriors tend to work in groups.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 17, 2003, 04:56:39 am
And as Shiver has said, I hate the idea of 42 times as many Kohr-Ah as Kzer-Za.

Syreen Song works on Mmrnmhrm, doesn't it?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Scott on April 17, 2003, 05:56:57 am
Yes. And it works on Slylandro Probes. But that's just game balance right there. :)


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 17, 2003, 06:08:33 am
Actually, I remember hearing that it doesn't work on Probes.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Matticus on April 17, 2003, 06:23:32 pm
The probes crew aren't green though, they're grey. Perhaps to represent the fact that they're not sentient/alive?

Who says there are 42 times as many Kohr-Ah as Kzer-Za? If you side with the argument that during the Doctrinal Conflict the Ur-Quan don't use subjugated races in their ships (due to the fact that the conflict is an internal Ur-Quan affair and that they look down on races so much that they wouldn't willingly allow them to kill Ur-Quan) then it pretty much evens out, doesn't it?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Vee-R on April 17, 2003, 07:58:15 pm
Quote
And as Shiver has said, I hate the idea of 42 times as many Kohr-Ah as Kzer-Za.


Why? Actually, it makes quite a lot of sense - try to think like a Dnyarri slave-master for a moment.  ;)  In any such society, and especially in a ruthless expansionist slave-empire, the number of workers and soldiers needed ( = Kohr-Ah) would be far greater than the number of scientists and administrators ( = Kzer-Za).


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 18, 2003, 12:42:14 am
Quote
The probes crew aren't green though, they're grey. Perhaps to represent the fact that they're not sentient/alive?

Who says there are 42 times as many Kohr-Ah as Kzer-Za? If you side with the argument that during the Doctrinal Conflict the Ur-Quan don't use subjugated races in their ships (due to the fact that the conflict is an internal Ur-Quan affair and that they look down on races so much that they wouldn't willingly allow them to kill Ur-Quan) then it pretty much evens out, doesn't it?



Except for the fact that it's stated clearly that there's only one Ur-Quan per ship specifically because they'd kill each other, otherwise.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 18, 2003, 12:43:44 am
Quote


Why? Actually, it makes quite a lot of sense - try to think like a Dnyarri slave-master for a moment.  ;)  In any such society, and especially in a ruthless expansionist slave-empire, the number of workers and soldiers needed ( = Kohr-Ah) would be far greater than the number of scientists and administrators ( = Kzer-Za).


Except for the fact that the Dnyarri haven't been around for 22,000 years and the Kzer-Za seem to have no qualms with fulfilling the expansionist battle conquering niche in the aftermath of the Dnyarri slave empire.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Omni-Sama on April 18, 2003, 10:32:57 pm
Well, when you speak with the Ur-Quan Kser-Za, you see them hanging over a pit of slaves controlling their ship.  The Kohr-Ah are perched in a similar position, except this time over a pit of what looks like juicy tendrils and intestines.  What reason would the Kohr-Ah have for wanting to be perched over a big pit just like the Kzer-Za?


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Vee-R on April 19, 2003, 12:23:28 am
Quote


Except for the fact that the Dnyarri haven't been around for 22,000 years and the Kzer-Za seem to have no qualms with fulfilling the expansionist battle conquering niche in the aftermath of the Dnyarri slave empire.


So...? It still makes sense to me.

Reasoning: immediately after the Dnyarri empire fell and the two Ur-Quan sub-species parted ways, the Kohr-Ah were far more numerous than the Kzer-Za, having been the workers and soldiers of the slave empire.  They could comfortably afford stuffing 42 of themselves on board of each ship, and still have a large, powerful armada.

The Kzer-Za, previously the scientists and bureaucrats, were comparatively few in number.  They realized that in order for their Path of Now and Forever to be fulfilled - and to ensure that the next Doctrinal War would be won as well - they would have to expand their forces as humanly caterpillarly possible.  Solution? Enslave a race.  If enslaved race = battle thrall, have it serve on Dreadnoughts as slave crew.  Spread actual Kzer-Za between ships as thinly as possible.  Repeat until (number of Kzer-Za per Dreadnought = 1) AND  (overall strength = stupendously powerful).

Since it's safe to assume that the birth-rates of the two sub-species are similar, if not identical, it's easy to derive that their numbers would still be in the same proportion to each other even after 20,000 years.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Shiver on April 19, 2003, 12:50:29 am
The population difference is entirely possible, but it's also pure theorycraft. And no, the Ur-Quan background is just a field of stars. I don't see a slave pit at all.

That's it, if I read through one more topic discussing things about the Ur-Quan even the developers haven't decided on, my head is going to fall off. No more. :-X


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Lukipela on April 21, 2003, 06:33:44 pm
Keep your head on shiver :) And keep in mind, that this forum is here mainly for discussions. even though we sometimes bring up points (over and over again), that we know that wer cannot answer correctly, it's still fun to discuss and ponder

The larger amount of workers seems logical to me... Maybe workers breed faster as well.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 22, 2003, 04:38:08 am
And the Kohr Ah don't use Talking Pets, after all...


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Shiver on April 22, 2003, 12:18:52 pm
I thought they did. Don't they? Damn it, I'm at the computer without SC2 installed on it again.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Lukipela on April 22, 2003, 12:48:24 pm
Thery do, I just checked. just another Primat fact eh  ;)


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 23, 2003, 02:40:09 am
Yep, just another Primat fact. *laugh*
Well then, now you know that they aren't adverse to keeping inferior races around for utility purposes.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Omni-Sama on April 23, 2003, 03:00:55 am
Quote
And no, the Ur-Quan background is just a field of stars. I don't see a slave pit at all.

Reading the SC2 manual explains why the Ur-Quan perch themselves above their slaves.  That's why the picture is of the Ur-Quan's caterpillar-like body in the air.  Unlike Primat facts, this one is true and you can see for yourself.  Being perched up above your slaves, able to whap them with your tendrils, is an excellent tactical advantage.   ;D


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 23, 2003, 05:16:30 am
Keeping little critters around to pull levers and run in the hamster wheels that power your Marauder is probably acceptable and not considered 'enslavement' I suppose, if you consider slave shielding and allowing the subjugate race to pursue their own devices on their own planet as 'enslavement'.


Title: Re: The Patented Captain Survival System
Post by: Vee-R on April 24, 2003, 05:46:35 pm
Quote
Keeping little critters around to pull levers and run in the hamster wheels that power your Marauder is probably acceptable and not considered 'enslavement' I suppose, if you consider slave shielding and allowing the subjugate race to pursue their own devices on their own planet as 'enslavement'.


Much simpler than that actually... at least when referring to the talking pets, they probably don't consider it to be 'enslavement' simply because the talking pets aren't sentient.