The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Frogboy on March 03, 2018, 01:59:02 am



Title: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Frogboy on March 03, 2018, 01:59:02 am
Figured I'd create a general catch-all thread for discussion on the new Star Control game and take feedback from the UQM community to pass on to the team.

Today's entry:
https://www.starcontrol.com/article/487813/star-control-origins---my-trip-to-jupiter

A visit to Jupiter.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Telemont on March 03, 2018, 11:29:20 am
I literally cannot imagine a Star Control game without some of the races or lore from Star Control 1-3. Even putting aside new races in SC3, there were lots of references to the older and more familiar races in that game. No matter what game Fred and Paul make, it cannot be publicly seen as anything but the next "Star Control" game. Stardock can make a game of their own, but without those races and lore it isn't a Star Control game. It's something else (possibly quite good) with the name Star Control slapped on like someone swapped their "Hello, I am _____" stickers.

Which... is pretty fair grounds for Fred and Pauls new game to be infringing upon the Trademark.

Stardock would have to put out their game and maybe even a second game before people start dis-associating the name Star Control with the old races and lore. Which is years and years down the road.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Krulle on March 03, 2018, 01:36:06 pm
Can we keep that discussion in ome of the other topics, please?


Anyway, back to topic: a short round-trip to Jupiter as a concept of proof?
And collecting minerals on the surface...
Starts good.
But the graphics are not what I'd expect of a Star Control game, but then I am biased, and simply love the more "naive" and "flat"graphics style, like classic cartoons and so.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Frogboy on March 03, 2018, 02:42:14 pm
I literally cannot imagine a Star Control game without some of the races or lore from Star Control 1-3. Even putting aside new races in SC3, there were lots of references to the older and more familiar races in that game. No matter what game Fred and Paul make, it cannot be publicly seen as anything but the next "Star Control" game. Stardock can make a game of their own, but without those races and lore it isn't a Star Control game. It's something else (possibly quite good) with the name Star Control slapped on like someone swapped their "Hello, I am _____" stickers.

Which... is pretty fair grounds for Fred and Pauls new game to be infringing upon the Trademark.

Stardock would have to put out their game and maybe even a second game before people start dis-associating the name Star Control with the old races and lore. Which is years and years down the road.

This really doesnít belong here. Can you create a new thread and delete your comment  here so we can focus on what is being posted?

The first post is about Star Controlís first test of the Emdrive in 2086 by going to Jupiter and back.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: rosepatel on March 03, 2018, 05:30:55 pm
Legal issues aside, a Star Control game without any of the old characters or races... it's hard to get excited.

I'd still be curious who is writing Origins. A Stardock guy? Someone new?


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Death 999 on March 03, 2018, 06:33:46 pm
This really doesnít belong here. Can you create a new thread and delete your comment  here so we can focus on what is being posted?

The first post is about Star Controlís first test of the Emdrive in 2086 by going to Jupiter and back.

I think regular users can lock their own threads. If you just want to make an announcement like this, I'd post and immediately lock.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Serosis on March 03, 2018, 06:40:21 pm
Legal issues aside, a Star Control game without any of the old characters or races... it's hard to get excited.

I'd still be curious who is writing Origins. A Stardock guy? Someone new?

Star Control is more than just the story, it is the genre.

You'll be hard pressed to find anything close to what Star Control was with the exception of Mass Effect 1.
The planet landing, galactic exploration, imminent threats, alien diplomacy, and alien personalities... All that was missing was ship to ship warfare and ME1 would have been the best example of Star Control since SCII

This is what SC:Origins is aiming to achieve, in my eyes. The best example of what modern Star Control can be.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Telemont on March 03, 2018, 08:30:58 pm
This really doesnít belong here. Can you create a new thread and delete your comment  here so we can focus on what is being posted?

The first post is about Star Controlís first test of the Emdrive in 2086 by going to Jupiter and back.
You stated that this was a catch-all thread for discussion on the new Star Control game, so feeling that the new game is not a "Star Control" game without the original races and lore seems a valid opinion in a catch-all thread for discussion about the new Star Control game. I even sided with you by stating that my own feelings on the matter would certainly seem to support the idea that trademark infringement was happening. So I stand by my comment being relevant to the topic.

However, since you want to take the thread in a different direction I will refrain from any further discussion beyond this post.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Frogboy on March 03, 2018, 10:05:45 pm
The idea was to discuss the game itself.

If the community wants to focus on activity that is outside the game itself, then that is fine too, that's just not a topic I'm interested in participating in as there are already multiple threads regarding that.

Given that the game begins in 2086, the aliens from Star Control 1/2 aren't really germane as according to Ur-Quan canon, the first time a canon race makes contact with Earth is 2112 (the Chenjesu).  Therefore, any story that takes place before then would necessarily involve different species.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Soul Reaver on March 05, 2018, 09:10:31 pm
The idea was to discuss the game itself.

If the community wants to focus on activity that is outside the game itself, then that is fine too, that's just not a topic I'm interested in participating in as there are already multiple threads regarding that.

Given that the game begins in 2086, the aliens from Star Control 1/2 aren't really germane as according to Ur-Quan canon, the first time a canon race makes contact with Earth is 2112 (the Chenjesu).  Therefore, any story that takes place before then would necessarily involve different species.

Since this occurs in a different universe, what it says in the manual doesn't really matter though does it?

If you went by what was in the manual, it also says Earthlings at the time of the Chenjesu contact:
"...the inhabitants of Earth, a people who, amazingly,
had never before had contact with a species other than their own. "

Which clearly won't apply in this case.

EDIT: Forgot to say though, the idea of driving/hovering along on the surface of various types of alien worlds is something I find inherently cool.  I always wish Mass Effect 1 had done a better of job of it (rather than the wheeled Bouncy Castle that we ended up with)


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: lostsoul on March 07, 2018, 03:43:54 am
will there be an option to create your own missions, scenarios or campaigns?


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: vok3 on March 07, 2018, 04:51:17 am
(This may seem a bit off topic for a while but I'll get back there eventually, trust me ...)

EDIT: Forgot to say though, the idea of driving/hovering along on the surface of various types of alien worlds is something I find inherently cool.  I always wish Mass Effect 1 had done a better of job of it (rather than the wheeled Bouncy Castle that we ended up with)

This is one part of No Man's Sky that is genuinely fun.  It's the closest thing I've found to an updated SC2 lander experience.  It's become standard practice for me to always carry the materials for a Roamer geobay and to drop one as soon as I land on any planet, then drive around in it to do whatever it is needs doing.  Works best on desert worlds, with their broad sweeping plains and gentle hills - you can really get moving fast, covering lots of distance in little time, but it's just as much fun on rainy grassland worlds, stormy acid rain baths, volcanic hellholes and Hoth-like arctics.  The one environment where it really doesn't work is planets that are really rugged, ridges and gullies every few feet, with thick forests all over - I've been on a few of those and you quite literally go faster on foot.

Some of my best experiences with the game have involved the Roamer.  When I finally got around to doing my run to the Hub (the region of space where NMS players were congregating and putting up bases and signposts), it took me most of a week, several hours each day of jump-jump-jump-jump-gather resources-build more warp cells-jump-jump-jump.  About two thirds of the way there, I popped into the local space station, noted they had a tech upgrade for sale that I'd been looking for, but I was a few nanites short.  Launch, do a scan, abandoned base detected on the planet the station was orbiting.  Score!  Ok, nose down and head for the ground.  I figured: quick landing, hit the base, grab the nanites, back up, buy the thingy and back to jumping.  I land on the shore of an ocean, jump out - whoa, super high radiation atmosphere - and wouldn't you know it, my target base is out there under the water somewhere.  Ok, I figure, it's not far; I'll just set up the Roamer and drive out along the sea bottom.  There's another base nearby, on land, with a landing beacon; first head there to set up the geobay so I can take off easily when all's done.  It's not far, just a minute or so on foot - and good thing it's not far, because in the short time it took me to localize that base, I get attacked by two different forms of hostile life.  (Two is pretty much as bad as it tends to get in NMS; just one is lots more common.)  While I'm dealing with that - and desperately recharging my hazard protection along the way, which is not standing up well to "Unstable Atmosphere" conditions - the local sentinel drones get mad at my killing the poor innocent harmonious-with-nature facerippers, so now I'm shooting them too - and still frantically recharging hazard protection.

Well, I make my way to the base, discovering along the way a third form of hostile life that also wants me for lunch.  Whatever, I won't be here long.  Get to the beacon, set up the geobay, hop in the Roamer, head out for a peaceful undersea drive.  I roll into the water, ignoring the "high radiation" warning;  the waves close above the cockpit canopy, and I see something I have never before seen in NMS: elevated levels of radiation within the Roamer cockpit.  I actually stopped still and just sat there looking at the numbers to see what they'd do for a few seconds.  They stabilize, at high-but-still-safe levels, so I go on.  With 30 seconds left to go before reaching destination, the Roamer tips over the edge of an undersea canyon, noses down, and does a beautiful slow-motion tumble into said canyon.

It quickly becomes clear that there will be no driving the Roamer out of here: it is stuck.  Only thing for it: eject, swim to the drowned base, grab the nanites, then swim back to shore, recharging hazard protection AND breathing equipment the whole way.  It'll be rough, but I figure I can do it.

And I do.  Barely.  No thanks to the two different types of aggressive aquatic life that harassed me the whole way back.  (For those NMSers keeping track, that's FIVE aggressive species.  On one planet.  I named it Hellabad.)

This is the kind of experience I figure the SC2 lander drivers kept having.  I know there were plenty of occasions where I'd take off with 1 or 2 guys left alive.  It's not "core" Star Control.  It's not anything I expect to see in Star Control games anytime soon.  But ... it was a fun experience, and desperately searching through the hostile environment and dangerous lifeforms for that one artifact or key resource you need before you can leave this planet and hit deep space again - that's definitely something we are all familiar with.  Even going back to Starflight.  It doesn't need to be the focus, doesn't need to be first-person, and I'm not expecting this from Origins, but gameplay experiences of this sort would definitely fit in well with Star Control and add to the overall experience.  If Origins works (and I hope it does) it might be the sort of idea we could hope to see show up in later iterations.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Kaiser on March 08, 2018, 05:25:46 am
will there be an option to create your own missions, scenarios or campaigns?

Believe that's the point of the "Origins" multiverse concept.  Everything's canon and nothing is, all at the same time.  So...  That's the plan.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: tingkagol on March 11, 2018, 10:05:43 am
I'm really just excited to find out what it's like to have your landers completely decimated by planet hotspots.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Frogboy on March 13, 2018, 06:00:29 pm
The "Origins" in Origin refer to a Precursor structure that can take you to other universes.

So the idea is that you would have the Prime universe where we tell our stories and then players can also visit other universes either owned or licensed by Stardock (Sins of a Solar Empire universe, GalCiv universe, Ur-Quan universe, Babylon 5, Farscape, etc.).

Way long ago, in November 1992, when Star Control II changed my career path from being an Electrical Engineer to wanting to develop games as a career and not as a hobby, was that Star Control was a game that told a compelling story and yet was open-ended too.

These days, it seems like games want to go in one of two ways:

1. It's a giant, procedural generated thing that you have to find your own meaning.

2. It's a tight, on rails, RPG / adventure that you might as well simply hit the spacebar for to have it tell you where to go to next to get the next cut-scene.

By contrast, Star Control was really about you being a Captain Kirk going on missions but with an overarching story to it but also made it clear you were part of a much bigger universe.

(shots from the beta)

Planet exploration:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0rUtv5zJwcb-FNXA (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0rUtv5zJwcb-FNXA)


Space exporation:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0qkDADgS4mJG357w (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0qkDADgS4mJG357w)


Battle:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0tZvggrYDEbZvvhA (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0tZvggrYDEbZvvhA)


Aliens:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0p7VHHmLegUBhsuQ (https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuBwidOf1nOuip0p7VHHmLegUBhsuQ)




Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 25, 2018, 11:00:48 pm
If Stardock loses the Star Control trademark, what will we call the game afterward?


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Death 999 on March 25, 2018, 11:19:52 pm
If they were to somehow lose that trademark?

Stardock: Origins? I mean, they've definitely got the rights to THAT.

And maybe 'Screw Atari for selling us a nothingburger for a lot of money, and P&F for not warning us: Origins'


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 25, 2018, 11:45:37 pm
Quote
Stardock: Origins? I mean, they've definitely got the rights to THAT.

What about Dock Control? or maybe something more like this...


(https://i.imgur.com/0DEdsY5.png)


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: rosepatel on March 26, 2018, 09:31:47 am
Seriously... why not just call it Galactic Origins?

I'm sure Stardock knows the exact figures, but each edition of GalCiv sells around 300k (before expansion packs). Each edition of Star Control only sold 100k or so, and that was nearly 3 decades ago.

At this point, the only fans who really care about Star Control are ones who care about the original games, and it's gonna be hard to sell them on a new game if you're in a battle with the creators.

I'm sure they want to get the value of the Trademark. But rationally, it's a sunk cost. They could easily shift gears and promote under a new name for most of the benefit, if not more of a benefit.



Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Kaiser on March 27, 2018, 09:37:16 am
At this current point in time, it's more likely that FaP will have to give up the IP to cover damages than Stardock would have to give up the Trademark.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Death 999 on March 27, 2018, 03:05:37 pm
I have a hard time seeing either of those happening.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Krulle on March 27, 2018, 03:58:25 pm
Me neither.
Both rights are uncontested and acknowledged by the other side.
Thing is, trademarks have well-defined borders.
Copyrights do not have a well-defined border, especially in modern times when most creations are a group effort.

Therefore one is comparably easy to enforce, the other not.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 27, 2018, 10:36:16 pm
You know you're reading something from a Stardock cultist when they call the creators of Star Control "FaP". D999, would you be willing to start editing that heinous crap out? I know it's heavy-handed but when I open the "Team" page of the Ur-Quan Masters website it says,

We worship these two higher beings for making the original, legendary game:
Fred Ford
Paul Reiche III



I don't think it's too much to ask that forum-goers not slur their names around here.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Frogboy on March 28, 2018, 01:35:04 am
Uh, first, welcome to the forum, Shiver.

Second, Death 999 is the global moderator of this forum.  Perhaps before insulting him you might want to learn more about the community here.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2018, 01:45:27 am
Uh, first, welcome to the forum, Shiver.

Second, Death 999 is the global moderator of this forum.  Perhaps before insulting him you might want to learn more about the community here.

Pfft, ha ha ha ha ha

I'm old as dirt around here. This account is a re-reg. I've even traded messages with you on PoNaF a little under the same name. And if Death takes offense, I'm sure he'll have no trouble managing me one way or another.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Deus Siddis on March 28, 2018, 02:10:44 am
And if Death takes offense, I'm sure he'll have no trouble managing me one way or another.

Is that how your original account got deleted then?


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2018, 02:16:09 am
Is that how your original account got deleted then?

No, I wanted a break. And hen-peck me all you guys want, calling the Star Control leads "FaP" is despicable and deserves to be called out.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Kaiser on March 28, 2018, 03:11:21 am
FaP is easier to type on a phone without digging up the ampersand.

In English, it's traditional when you list things to go from syllable order (which isn't involved in the mono-syllabled Fred and Paul) and then alphabetical.  Like Dogar and Kazon, it should be Fred and Paul. 

You have an issue with the English language, that's on you.  I'll continue to write FaP or F&P depending on what I'm typing on.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2018, 05:44:51 am
FaP is easier to type on a phone without digging up the ampersand.

In English, it's traditional when you list things to go from syllable order (which isn't involved in the mono-syllabled Fred and Paul) and then alphabetical.  Like Dogar and Kazon, it should be Fred and Paul. 

You have an issue with the English language, that's on you.  I'll continue to write FaP or F&P depending on what I'm typing on.

It's like you're calling them the slang term for... ah, nevermind. I can see you don't mean any harm with it.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Death 999 on March 28, 2018, 07:31:48 am
Ö sigh.

Yeah, FaP is amusing, and maybe PaF would be less snicker-snicker-y, BUT unless people began playing off it as direct taunts, I think going after it - especially aggressively like that - is making something out of nothing. Of course, the instant someone begins actually making that taunt, red flags gonna be flying. That'd be not-okay.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2018, 07:53:01 am
Big oops with that. This has not been a graceful entrance for me. Sorry Kaiser!


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Krulle on March 28, 2018, 12:37:34 pm
Just use "F a P" if you must, then. Or spell it out a bit more "FandP".


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Mormont on March 28, 2018, 07:49:53 pm
It's probably not intentional in every case, but Shiver is correct that a lot of Stardock fans use "FaP" as an offensive dig - how often did people call them that before this controversy?


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Serosis on March 28, 2018, 09:41:58 pm
It's probably not intentional in every case, but Shiver is correct that a lot of Stardock fans use "FaP" as an offensive dig - how often did people call them that before this controversy?

Got any proof for this baseless accusation out of fucking nowhere?

I know of only one guy who does it on purpose in the Founder community and he's quite a bit annoying in general to work with.
Hardly constitutes, "a lot".


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: bum783 on March 28, 2018, 09:45:54 pm
WOW! is this not the most pedantic argument in Forum history?

Can we get this discussion B.O.T. or will that acronym offend a robot some place? SHEESH!


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Mormont on March 28, 2018, 10:03:53 pm
It's probably not intentional in every case, but Shiver is correct that a lot of Stardock fans use "FaP" as an offensive dig - how often did people call them that before this controversy?

Got any proof for this baseless accusation out of fucking nowhere?

I know of only one guy who does it on purpose in the Founder community and he's quite a bit annoying in general to work with.
Hardly constitutes, "a lot".
I think I know who you're referring to (not so sure there are no others though); maybe he's just loud enough that I overestimated how common it is. I apologize if I overgeneralized about Stardock fans and probably should have said "some" instead.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2018, 10:10:49 pm
Quote from: Serosis
Got any proof for this baseless accusation out of fucking nowhere?

I know of only one guy who does it on purpose in the Founder community and he's quite a bit annoying in general to work with.
Hardly constitutes, "a lot".

I took an untenable position, so we really don't need to pursue this further.


Quote from: bum783
WOW! is this not the most pedantic argument in Forum history?

Can we get this discussion B.O.T. or will that acronym offend a robot some place? SHEESH!

Sure, post on-topic if you want. Can't say I feel bad for derailing this thread.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Serosis on March 28, 2018, 10:18:52 pm
It's probably not intentional in every case, but Shiver is correct that a lot of Stardock fans use "FaP" as an offensive dig - how often did people call them that before this controversy?

Got any proof for this baseless accusation out of fucking nowhere?

I know of only one guy who does it on purpose in the Founder community and he's quite a bit annoying in general to work with.
Hardly constitutes, "a lot".
I think I know who you're referring to (not so sure there are no others though); maybe he's just loud enough that I overestimated how common it is. I apologize if I overgeneralized about Stardock fans and probably should have said "some" instead.

He definitely can be a lot "louder" than the others.

By the way, are you the same Shiver that does the balance mod?
If you are, I've got some questions about the UQM code.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 28, 2018, 10:30:00 pm
He definitely can be a lot "louder" than the others.

By the way, are you the same Shiver that does the balance mod?
If you are, I've got some questions about the UQM code.

Yes. Send me a PM if you'd like, although I suspect you're a far better programmer than I am.


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Frogboy on March 30, 2018, 12:45:17 am
What languages do you code in?


Title: Re: The Star Control: Origins thread
Post by: Shiver on March 30, 2018, 09:09:52 am
What languages do you code in?

!

Ah well, why not. I'm not a programmer by trade. I've only done small amounts of game modding and one high school programming course. So the answer would be "C", because I tortured out how to change UQM. After UQM got online multiplayer working, there was a small competitive scene for super melee. The more people played, the more apparent imbalances with the SC2 ships became apparent under scrutiny. I had all sorts of ideas for what might get melee to be more fair, so one day I just went for it and started trying to edit the game. It was a painful process for a while, but eventually it shaped up.