The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Kohr-Ah Death 213 on April 07, 2018, 01:30:06 am



Title: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death 213 on April 07, 2018, 01:30:06 am
Me and a friend are trying to figure out the UQM ship's scale.

Like between a Dreadnought to a Shofixti Scout. What are the "realistic" scales for all of the ships?

An example is sticking the HD Dreadnought up against a Vanilla Scout:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387711552985366546/431954935668670464/Gorno8.PNG)

Is there a chart anywhere or perhaps a list of ship dimensions out there somewhere?


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PaulReiche on April 07, 2018, 04:01:06 am
This is a tricky question to answer, one I've struggled with every now and then.  While hunting through my old documents the other day, I found a diagram I did of our ships relative to one another specifically for scale. I sort of shook my head and disagreed with my past self at the scale choices -- the ships were too close in size.  So, starting from scratch, let's think about the relative size of an Ur-Quan Kzer-Za fighter -- it is probably around the same size as a Shofixti scout (Shofixti are smaller than Fighter Pilots, but they do carry a Glory Device, so let's call it a wash.). A Dreadnaut can carry around 40 fighters -- 20 per side.  So, presuming that the main body of the Dreadnaut holds all the fighters, pointed outward and there needs to be some space between the individual launch tubes, I'd say that the Scouts would be 50-75% the size you've shown.  How does that seem to you?


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death 213 on April 07, 2018, 07:46:17 am
Wow, that's pretty damn small.  :o

But, in-game, the scout has a crew compliment of 6 and Commander Heyes did mention that he traveled aboard a Scout before.
No mention how exactly he fit on-board, given that the Shofixti are smaller than Humans on average and their ships would more match their physiology, only that he was worried about the Glory device.

Though around 75% of what we see here might work out, because like before, the Shofixti are smaller on average so they could cram more crew in such a small area.

We speculated that the Dreadnought's "nacelles" are the delivery source of the fighters. But given that the fighters are one crew each to the Shofixti's 6 I'm thinking the size shown is pretty close if not 80-90% of the size shown.
How does that sound? It would be up to how big the Scout would be to where it can cram six crew members.

And then there's the matter of the other 24 ships.
Are some of your scale sizes "non-shake-head-able"?

P.S. Big thanks for taking the time to answer. Makes my day every time.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Mormont on April 07, 2018, 02:31:43 pm
Since Paul is reading, I have a related question...who crews the Kohr-ah Marauder? Fan speculation has included:
- Sub-sentient slaves, kind of like a talking pet
- Robots
- Other Kohr-ah - who being engineered originally for labor and war, may be be less instinctively territorial and/or more numerous than the Kzer-za?

Part of what makes it tricky is that the Syreen song works on them, though it may just be an abstraction for gameplay's sake.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PaulReiche on April 07, 2018, 04:51:35 pm
I think you could pick a size between 75-95% of your initial size and feel comfortable that it's reasonable accurate.  

One other way of looking at would be to look at the Star Trek TOS shuttlecraft for reference...

http://www.karltate.com/?p=211

...they fit 7 humans in there with tons of leg room to spare.  Scale down for Shofixti size, make the walls slightly thicker, add a small weapon system up front, a bit bigger thruster in back, and of course, a sweet, shiny bomb on the bottom.

Thinking about this has reminded me of a short story by Cordwainer Smith called, "The Game of Rat and Dragon" about using uplifted cats to fly miniature fighter escort around FTL starships.  

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/29614/29614-h/29614-h.htm

Smith wrote relatively little and not everyone enjoys his work, but along with Jack Vance, he's one of my favorites.  "Norstrilia" is probably his best-known work, but "Mark Elf" and "Scanners Live In Vain" were pretty great too.

Edit: Added link to 'Game of Rat and Dragon" and corrected names of two stories.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PaulReiche on April 07, 2018, 05:02:36 pm
For Mormont , Re: Kohr-Ah crew... let me think a sec... (reads what other people have written about this)... okay, my favorite alternative (and I reserve the right to change this in GotP) is that the Kohr-Ah have a 'treatment' applied to any sentient non-Ur-Quan entering their ships -- kind of like a de-lousing spray applied directly to the brain which removes enough higher mental functions to drop the being to a non-sentient-but-still-useful state.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Krulle on April 08, 2018, 12:08:42 am
Wow, that's pretty damn small.  :o

But, in-game, the scout has a crew compliment of 6 and Commander Heyes did mention that he traveled aboard a Scout before.
No mention how exactly he fit on-board, given that the Shofixti are smaller than Humans on average and their ships would more match their physiology, only that he was worried about the Glory device.

Though around 75% of what we see here might work out, because like before, the Shofixti are smaller on average so they could cram more crew in such a small area.

We speculated that the Dreadnought's "nacelles" are the delivery source of the fighters. But given that the fighters are one crew each to the Shofixti's 6 I'm thinking the size shown is pretty close if not 80-90% of the size shown.
How does that sound? It would be up to how big the Scout would be to where it can cram six crew members.

And then there's the matter of the other 24 ships.
Are some of your scale sizes "non-shake-head-able"?

P.S. Big thanks for taking the time to answer. Makes my day every time.
There's also that the Shofixti have only recently been uplifted to space-age, and as such may lack the industrial basis for building ships with plenty of room.
Whereas the Ur-Quan (both races) LiVE in space. No homeplanet for recreational purposes. They need to do everything on their ships.
Industrial basis, sport, privacy, education, child raising, ....
I personally imagined the ship size differnce much greater than shown, sinc they are territorial and may need lots of room to get out of each others way.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Shiver on April 08, 2018, 02:38:02 am
For Mormont , Re: Kohr-Ah crew... let me think a sec... (reads what other people have written about this)... okay, my favorite alternative (and I reserve the right to change this in GotP) is that the Kohr-Ah have a 'treatment' applied to any sentient non-Ur-Quan entering their ships -- kind of like a de-lousing spray applied directly to the brain which removes enough higher mental functions to drop the being to a non-sentient-but-still-useful state.

That is (would be?) a major development. It's the first sign of Kohr-Ah taking any slaves other than their talking pets, and brings up many more questions. Are the Kohr-Ah performing mass abductions on worlds they've defeated shortly before scouring them, or is there some other procedure they follow? Are there still Burvixese alive aboard some of their Marauders, given that the Burvix homeworld was the last place they cleansed? Do the Kohr-Ah put much effort into breeding, training, and replacing slaves or are they perpetually grabbing new ones? I'd understand if you wanted to keep these questions unanswered for now.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PaulReiche on April 08, 2018, 03:43:35 am
Shiver, those are good points.  It's my nature to spew wild solutions, but they might just cascade into other consequences and contradictions, so for now I will ponder and muse and watch THE TERROR, part of my recent 'Violent deaths in the Arctic' TV marathon.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Shiver on April 08, 2018, 04:09:12 am
That... did suddenly turn morbid didn't it?


Quote
THE TERROR, part of my recent 'Violent deaths in the Arctic' TV marathon.

Going to check this.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Death 999 on April 08, 2018, 05:10:40 am
I like the option of there being one kind of specially bred minimally intelligent critter. I think if they were to take on and 'delouse' new aliens every time they did an extermination, that would be bringing filth aboard. And a security risk, though they'd be more likely to think of it in terms of cleanliness.

On the other hand, we do know they get up close and personal enough to fill their bone pits.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Soul Reaver on April 09, 2018, 12:27:32 am
Re the Ur-Quan fighter craft:
A number of factors make me think they would be at the most 50% the size of the Shofixti:

- They have only a single crew member on-board
- They are so fragile that meteors destroy them (ie, basically no hull armour/mass)
- They actually have a limited fuel reserve (need to return to Dreadnought or they die)

All of those suggest that they are missing a large number of 'basic' systems that even the tiny Shofixti scout has.  I think they literally are just a pilot seat, basic thruster system (with small fuel/life support tanks), encased in paper-thin hull and with a tiny swivelling laser gun, and not much else.  I'd be inclined to think this is all to make the fighters smaller, so the Dreadnought can carry more of them.

As for the Khor-Ah:
I imagine the crew would be some sort of organic robot - basically bioenginnered, obedient, faceless clones with no real ability to dream or aspire.  Their thinking ability is limited to the thinking they do to fulfill whatever task they are given.  The Syreen call works on them because even though they don't have higher brain functions, they do still have a BRAIN, and if their brain tells them "I have to go to that ship over there now, time to put on that suit and step out of the airlock" they'll do it (much like they'd follow the orders of their Kohr-Ah keepers under normal circumstances).


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: CelticMinstrel on April 09, 2018, 01:43:05 am
You said Kzer-Za but I'm pretty sure you meant Kohr-Ah? Kzer-Za are the green ones who take slaves.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Soul Reaver on April 09, 2018, 02:14:26 am
You said Kzer-Za but I'm pretty sure you meant Kohr-Ah? Kzer-Za are the green ones who take slaves.

Correct, I buggered that up.  Have edited it now.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Neutrino 123 on April 09, 2018, 06:40:56 am
A long time ago, I calculated ship sizes, which still seem reasonable...
http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=3228.0


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 09, 2018, 05:09:29 pm
While hunting through my old documents the other day, I found a diagram I did of our ships relative to one another specifically for scale. I sort of shook my head and disagreed with my past self at the scale choices -- the ships were too close in size.

Ooh, I would love to see that diagram even so.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: We Are Orz on April 10, 2018, 01:14:05 am
I'm guessing the Sa-Matra battle platform is larger than shown in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFsCsQI4ACs
At least I picture it to be much larger than shown in scale to the Dreadnought and the Marauder. (I think the scale when placed next to the Avenger is absurd)


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Shiver on April 10, 2018, 02:31:00 am
I'm guessing the Sa-Matra battle platform is larger than shown in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFsCsQI4ACs
At least I picture it to be much larger than shown in scale to the Dreadnought and the Marauder. (I think the scale when placed next to the Avenger is absurd)

That's UQM-HD, right? The Sa-Matra takes up a lot more space in the original game.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death 213 on April 10, 2018, 03:03:21 am
That's actually the MegaMod. It's catching on... Excellent. :D


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: We Are Orz on April 10, 2018, 03:04:50 am
There's no other version I could illegally place hierarchy and melnorme ships (besides the Umgah, Spathi, and Yehat) next to the sa-matra.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death 213 on April 10, 2018, 03:07:05 am
You could use a debug build of UQM. You press the F5 key and it will unlock all the ships to be bought.
Though I think you actually have to map the debug key yourself inside the .uqm (read .zip) file.

http://uqm.stack.nl/files/snapshots/


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PaulReiche on April 10, 2018, 08:27:29 am
Here's my diagram on Star Control ship relative scale, created in 1992 on my dot matrix printer.  25 years later, I think I didn't get much right except perhaps for the relative scale of the Flagship and the Chevy Suburban. 

For what it's worth, last night spent some time looking at George Barr's painting of the Flagship being prepared for lift-off from Unzervalt.  Ultimately I decided it was about 275 meters long.  The original Enterprise is just a hair larger.

Looking at the large image of the Shofixti Scout from Star Control 1, I'd estimate it is no more than 7 meters long, so those other 5 Shofixti must be packed in there like sardines.  For comparison, a Colonial Viper Mark 2 from Battlestar Galactica is estimated to be a little over 8 meters long.   

I appreciate the scale estimate from the in-game bitmaps, but the relative scale in combat was intentionally compressed to make the experience more fun.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/mm333t.jpg)



Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PRH on April 11, 2018, 12:22:07 am
Speaking of George Barr's paintings - are they the images you've been showing us in your blog posts? Because they are of much higher resolution than the in-game pictures, yet much truer to the original than the UQM HD graphics.


Title: Re: UQM Ship Scales: Question for Paul and/or Fred
Post by: PaulReiche on April 11, 2018, 01:07:16 am
Yes, those are higher-res scans of the original artwork. I am sure I've said this before, but George is a fantastic illustrator and painter, whose book covers have inspired my imagination since the mid 1970s.

I am in the process of rescanning the originals at MUCH higher quality, which made me remember that there were little tweaks I did to some of the images in DPaint, mostly to deal with the artifacts of low resolution and only 256 colors.