The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Zelnik on June 24, 2018, 01:55:00 am



Title: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Zelnik on June 24, 2018, 01:55:00 am
Support the creators of the game, and Chancellor Neighsay is best pony. I dropped a C note to help, and will probably support them more as time goes on.

Accreditation is super-important, diplomacy not so much.

Praise Frungy

https://www.gofundme.com/help-fred-amp-paul-save-the-universe


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on June 24, 2018, 04:31:39 am
I can't help but think letting Zelnik be the OP for all these topics pertaining to the lawsuit is... not putting our best foot forward. He seems a bit overzealous.

(I donated some $$ too)


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Death 999 on June 24, 2018, 04:47:54 am
Oh look, Zelnik's last post. We bow our heads in acknowledgement.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: LastOfTheBurvixese on June 24, 2018, 05:10:34 am
I can't help but think letting Zelnik be the OP for all these topics pertaining to the lawsuit is... not putting our best foot forward. He seems a bit overzealous.

(I donated some $$ too)

If it wasn't him it would be some other rabid fan boy. That's why this whole situation makes so little sense.

Step one) Star*ock buys the SC trademark. It's valuable because of the fan base.

Step two) Sink a bunch of money into game development.

Step three) Anger the fan base by threatening UQM's plot resolution.

Step four) You already spent the money on game development and now you've threatened the value of the game's brand by aggravating the fans whose interest is what the brand derives its economic value from.

Star*ock should just dump the SC trademark and find another hook.

For example strike a deal with some e-celeb to star in 'Origins', shill it, and get 15% of gross revenue.

"Pewdiepie's Space Adventure!" Now that would have a bigger installed fan base than Star Control™©®™®© ™©®™® ©™©®™®©™©®™®©™©®™®© does


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on June 24, 2018, 04:43:29 pm
Quote from: Zelnik
and Chancellor Neighsay is best pony

I'm going to have to watch this infamous cartoon sometime and pick a favorite pwny for D9 to use if/when the red hammer strikes me.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Spargenox on June 25, 2018, 09:44:45 pm
Donated a C note. what will all of you do?


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Tas on June 25, 2018, 11:17:23 pm
If this were a kickstarter to fund the game development I'd totally donate.

But I really don't feel good about donating to support a legal team when early posts on their own board seemed to indicate that they expected and even wanted a legal battle.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: rosepatel on June 26, 2018, 01:09:19 am
I wish this was a kickstarter too. But there's no way that P&F wanted a legal battle. They had proposed that they own the copyright, and Stardock own the Trademark. (https://cdn.stardock.us/forums/0/0/1/ad4dd7d8-a995-42e6-abbd-6078a2757ad5.png) Stardock rejected it and said they also had the legal right to sell the original games (which they have since pulled down, at least for the duration of the lawsuit).

Stardock filed their lawsuit on December 7th. You do see posts from both sides about the legal stuff start to ramp up around then, but there's no way that Paul and Fred asked to be sued by Stardock. There's a massive difference between being ready for an attack and wanting one.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Mormont on June 26, 2018, 02:06:28 am
Crowdfunding legal expenses is actually not all that unusual.
.
I assume Fred and Paul have realistic expectations and don't expect this to actually cover any large percentage of their legal defenses, just help mitigate the costs a bit. They have done well for themselves and likely have enough saved up to save a million each,, though it would probably be digging out a big chunk of their savings. 2 million is probably an upper worst-case estimate though.

I donated some. But of course people have a right to choose where they put their money (and there are causes that are much more important in the scheme of things).


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on June 26, 2018, 05:07:13 am
They just crossed 10k in donations. Anyone want to guess what value the Frungy Defense Fund will reach before donations close? I'm imagining a floor of 25k and a ceiling of 250k here.


Quote
But I really don't feel good about donating to support a legal team when early posts on their own board seemed to indicate that they expected and even wanted a legal battle.

That's fair if you feel that way. Personally, as a die-hard fan of the game that's beyond pissed off at Stardock, it was an easy choice for me to join in.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Kwayne on June 27, 2018, 11:56:12 pm
I'd rather fund an actual game.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: LastOfTheBurvixese on June 28, 2018, 05:11:08 am
I'd rather fund an actual game.

Same, but I'd also rather UQM get a real sequel instead of just getting Star Control III Electric Boogaloo so I donated.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Frogboy on June 28, 2018, 05:25:32 am
It has been helpful to see the..depth of support they have. One never knows for sure until it’s put to the test. It has gotten an impressive amount of media coverage at least.



Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: tingkagol on June 28, 2018, 10:59:58 am
You should donate y'know.

..

But in all seriousness, the moment they asked fans to fund their legal woes I thought it was over, and that's coming from someone who leans into P&F's lane. I'd much rather donate to a GotP kickstarter. However- I do wish they could somehow stay in this fight so that we could see what the court decides.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Krulle on June 28, 2018, 01:29:34 pm
Yeah, I lack an ending text like "any left over or refunded funds (if we win) will be used for GotP".
I'm pretty sure that would incite more people to help funding.

But then, if they'd run a "fund me" campaign for GotP, while the courtcase is running, people would complain about now knowing if the funds would be diverted for the legal battle, or possibly if they loose be seized by Stardock...

I find therefore asking for this to be the correct way.

But this is my personal opinion.


Also, seeing that Dogar and Kazon are the twin gods of evil, I don't know if I would want to fund a church bowing to these two "gods".

Maybe a more Pkunk like phrasing would've been better as title...,.

We are one with the Pootworm.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: rosepatel on June 28, 2018, 07:54:19 pm
Yeah, I lack an ending text like "any left over or refunded funds (if we win) will be used for GotP".
I'm pretty sure that would incite more people to help funding.

But then, if they'd run a "fund me" campaign for GotP, while the courtcase is running, people would complain about now knowing if the funds would be diverted for the legal battle, or possibly if they loose be seized by Stardock...

I find therefore asking for this to be the correct way.

That was my read of it as well. Frankly, I'd love to see more talk about the plans for GOTP, but kinda silly to do that when the lawsuit might end with massive legal and/or financial hurdles. So I guess this is the best they can do.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Elestan on June 30, 2018, 02:15:05 am
Yeah, I lack an ending text like "any left over or refunded funds (if we win) will be used for GotP".
I'm pretty sure that would incite more people to help funding.

Maybe, but since there's no realistic chance that the donations will exceed their expenses, it's kind of a moot point, isn't it?


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on July 04, 2018, 03:16:38 am
Two $1,000 donations just went through. Nice!


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Krulle on July 04, 2018, 08:59:26 am
Well, if they win the case (and honestly, that may be a very big IF), aren't they entitled to be repaid the costs?

They the spent money could go to GotP.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Death 999 on July 04, 2018, 03:40:30 pm
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/attorney-fees-does-losing-side-30337.html

in general, not in the USA, but some states have laws that if a suit is groundless then the one who started it pays for both.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: orzophile on July 26, 2018, 03:15:36 am
Had posted this elsewhere on reddit where it apparently got moderated for unexplained reasons, but I'll put the same offer here --

After having some free time to read the amended complaints and exhibits, I've become very dismayed at what appears to be a wholly cynical ploy  to prevent the creation, much less publication, of a real sequel to SC1/SC2. I don't claim to know why Stardock thinks this was a worthwhile or necessary goal, but their tactics are absolutely infuriating to me from multiple perspectives, not the least of which being that I've been involved in several small business ventures that were deeply personal to some of the people involved and I know what sort of effort it takes to put your long-term business responsibilities on hold for something like that.

Anyway, the short of it is that I'm currently matching any donations to the Frungy Defense Fund between yesterday (july 24th) and this Saturday (july 28th, US Pacific) when I get home from a business trip. After getting some sad troll responses, I'll match up to $1100 in donations, of which approximately $220 have been added already.

I'll think of some clever name so it's obvious the gofundme donation I make on Saturday night will be a contribution match instead of my other anonymous donation from earlier.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Elestan on July 26, 2018, 03:54:55 am
I'll match up to $1100 in donations, of which approximately $220 have been added already.

That's very generous of you.  What was the gofundme total at the start of your match?


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: CommanderShepard on July 26, 2018, 04:14:32 am
From a lot of different sources, looking at copyright/trademark laws, talking with both parties and neutral third parties, looking at these legal videos recently brought up, my own conclusion is that Stardock is almost assuredly in the wrong in their overall claims. They are certainly right that the trademark is theirs, but that should be irrelevant because Fred and Paul openly stated time and time again that they never want nor need the Star Control trademark.

What it seems to me Stardock has done, though likely mainly Brad's orders, is infringe on the copyright of Fred and Paul's creative work by intentionally deriving from their characters within the same industry, and then tried to use that infringement as a means of filing the trademarks for Fred and Paul's races which itself is an additional violation.

These are definitely audacious and risky moves for Stardock from my perspective, so it doesn't quite make sense their company would insist on these claims unless a more emotional motivation was involved or that there was an actual malice of Stardock towards Fred and Paul to intentionally cause them harm with defamation and with a loss of business. I can see that the same kind of perspective might be true of Brad though, that perhaps he perceives Fred and Paul to have done something similar as he seems to have claimed.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: orzophile on July 26, 2018, 04:25:45 am
I'll match up to $1100 in donations, of which approximately $220 have been added already.

That's very generous of you.  What was the gofundme total at the start of your match?

It was sitting at $19,500 when I originally posted. One person has already contacted me saying they were donating partially inspired by that, so it would be unfair to move the goalposts. As of this post $240 have been added.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: CommanderShepard on July 26, 2018, 05:43:19 am
So I was literally just about to give Brad the benefit of the doubt and suggest he more likely wasn't being emotionally biased but simply was expressing what he understood to be true, and then ironically he strongly supported my original opinion of his emotional bias by banning or having someone ban me from his discord chat room.

For me that more or less settles it, because if he believed in the integrity of his claims and didn't have any intention of propaganda or possible defamation, then I think he would have understood that I have a view on an understanding of the issue just as he does or anyone else. I like Stardock's games and I continue to play them, but just to me, it seems Brad publicly has a very poor understanding of the strength of his arguments in regards to his case.

That means there is also a chance that banning me was just a facade to get away with controlling the information on his discord since what I said wasn't necessarily in his favor of his opinion in the particular argument we had, but, without the immediate appearance of that propaganda intent. Though, I gave him a fair suggestion on how he could strengthen his use of some of the SCO races in Stardock's game which would ultimately benefit his business, I still had an intention of suggesting him to avoid legal trouble too because ultimately the dispute may reflect poorly on him, though I wouldn't confuse his personal animosity with that of Stardock as a company itself. He is entitled to moderate his chat room of course, but it doesn't make his claims any more logical, and now because I'm banned, I can't converse with him to determine if his claims seem more fair to me, so now I'm stuck with the conclusion that it seems more likely to me that he had and/or has an emotional bias.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Serosis on July 26, 2018, 06:01:15 am
He just banned you for being two-faced, "Zelnick".

One exactly wouldn't take it kindly to be talked down to behind their back while saying something different to their face.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: CommanderShepard on July 26, 2018, 06:01:54 am
He just banned you for being two-faced, "Zelnick".

But that excuse doesn't make sense.

One exactly wouldn't take it kindly to be talked down to behind their back while saying something different to their face.

I don't generally take such actions to mean kindness either, I feel he consistently mislead me by intentionally neglecting evidence that would have questioned some of his claims, which to me, indicates he was not giving a fair assessment, or otherwise bias, and possibly to the extent of propaganda and the defamation of Fred and Paul. In terms of the documents, I don't see that there is a claim for defamation in Fred and Paul's counter-complaint, it would just be my opinion as a possible effect, but there is a claim for punitive damages in the countercomplaint.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on July 26, 2018, 06:08:36 am
So I was literally just about to give Brad the benefit of the doubt and suggest he more likely wasn't being emotional but simply was expressing what he understood to be true, and then ironically he strongly supported my original opinion of his emotional bias by banning or having someone ban me from his discord chat room.

Can't say I blame them if you act the same way there as you do here. On this forum, you're 50% of the forum activity right now. It used to be the Ur-Quan Masters forum, and now it's CommanderShepard's living room. I've griped to Death 999 over PM, and as has always been the case around here, they take a painfully laissez faire view of forum moderation.

Quote from: Serosis
He just banned you for being two-faced, "Zelnick".

One exactly wouldn't take it kindly to be talked down to behind their back while saying something different to their face.

Whoa, is this Zelnick too? I had confirmed that CmdrShep is the same guy as that horrible "Fake McCoy" troll poster from a few years back based on the email address he has on his profile. What are you using to determine that he's also Zelnik, exactly?


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: CommanderShepard on July 26, 2018, 06:13:40 am
So I was literally just about to give Brad the benefit of the doubt and suggest he more likely wasn't being emotional but simply was expressing what he understood to be true, and then ironically he strongly supported my original opinion of his emotional bias by banning or having someone ban me from his discord chat room.

Can't say I blame them if you act the same way there as you do here. On this forum, you're 50% of the forum activity right now. It used to be the Ur-Quan Masters forum, and now it's CommanderShepard's living room. I've griped to Death 999 over PM, and as has always been the case around here, they take a painfully laissez faire view of forum moderation.

Even if it were true that I was 50% of the "activity," I don't see that there is anything wrong with that on its own. I can have my own opinion on the subject and share it. If Death999 thinks I am breaking any forum rules, they are free to tell me and I will respect their request.

Whoa, is this Zelnick too? I had confirmed that CmdrShep is the same guy as that horrible "Fake McCoy" troll poster from a few years back based on the email address he has on his profile. What are you using to determine that he's also Zelnik, exactly?

I wouldn't be so quick to make that assumption. Someone on discord suggested I was some other poster here named "Zelnik" but the reason I chose "Zelnick" is just because it happens to be a name I saw on the UQM game. I also made this account on a public server in an area where there are other people interested in the SC games, so I can't attest to that other point. From my perspective I've given a fair perspective on the issue after putting much effort into investigating it. If people want to disagree with that, they are certainly entitled to.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Serosis on July 26, 2018, 06:18:04 am
Whoa, is this Zelnick too? I had confirmed that CmdrShep is the same guy as that horrible "Fake McCoy" troll poster from a few years back based on the email address he has on his profile. What are you using to determine that he's also Zelnik, exactly?

No, no, no, no... I wouldn't stoop so low to accuse anyone of being that guy.

Shepard was the username that was the correct way of spelling "Zelnick" on the Discord. Not "Zelnik" without the 'C'.

That "Zelnik" was "DreadCassowary" on Discord and was banned just as fast.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on July 26, 2018, 06:23:27 am
No, no, no, no... I wouldn't stoop so low to accuse anyone of being that guy.

Shepard was the username that was the correct way of spelling "Zelnick" on the Discord. Not "Zelnik" without the 'C'.

That "Zelnik" was "DreadCassowary" on Discord and was banned just as fast.

Tch! Such a shame. I figured ban evasion was enough reason to get rid of Chatty Cathy here. No such luck.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: CommanderShepard on July 26, 2018, 06:27:33 am
No, no, no, no... I wouldn't stoop so low to accuse anyone of being that guy.

Shepard was the username that was the correct way of spelling "Zelnick" on the Discord. Not "Zelnik" without the 'C'.

That "Zelnik" was "DreadCassowary" on Discord and was banned just as fast.

Tch! Such a shame. I figured ban evasion was enough reason to get rid of Chatty Cathy here. No such luck.

I don't see that you're providing coherent reasoning for disputing points I make in regards to the case, but I do admit I've been posting more often than what it seems like many others have. The reason I did however is specifically because I investigated and I wanted to bring certain information to light that may have been overlooked as an expression of my perspective, but looking back I recognize now that even in that case it was excessive, so I apologize for that. It seems I was perhaps monopolizing the conversation and I will refrain from posting for a while.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on July 26, 2018, 06:37:08 am
I don't see that you're providing coherent reasoning for disputing points I make in regards to the case, but I do admit I've been posting more than often that what it seems like many others have. The reason I did however is specifically because I investigated and I wanted to bring certain information to light that may have been overlooked as an expression of my perspective, but looking back I recognize now that even in that case it was excessive, so I apologize for that. It seems I was perhaps monopolizing the conversation and I will refrain from posting for a while.

I appreciate that. Perhaps I'm being excessively harsh and you do deserve more respect and consideration than I've given you. Sorry - I'm going to try to do that going forward.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: rosepatel on July 26, 2018, 06:41:50 am
This is an open forum. There's room for people to make up their own minds about Stardock. Some people here are sympathizers. Some people here are critics. No one, as far as I can tell, has been particularly over the top. The rare few have been warned, and usually fall in line. Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt. It's one thing for the community to be criticizing businesses and public figures, but I can't stomach to see an open community criticize itself. This is the most Pkunk I'll get, but let's try to get along, even if we disagree, okay?


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Death 999 on July 26, 2018, 09:56:10 am
Well, I'm glad that suddenly sorted itself out, mostly.

Also, I don't think totally walking away would be necessary, CommanderShepard - no need for you to temp ban yourself; a moderate pace reduction seems more appropriate. Unless that's what you meant.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Elestan on July 26, 2018, 04:27:53 pm
I investigated and I wanted to bring certain information to light that may have been overlooked as an expression of my perspective.

Another factor might have been that you were coming in late to a discussion that had been very actively going for several months, with well over a thousand posts of history on the relevant threads:

  • http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5463.0
  • http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=6968.0
  • http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=7103.0
  • http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=7015.0
  • http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=7182.0

So the burden on a newcomer to get up to speed enough to avoid re-treading old ground is significant, even with the fan FAQ (http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Stardock_Systems_Inc._v._Paul_Reiche_III_and_Robert_Frederick_Ford).


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: orzophile on July 28, 2018, 01:46:13 am
I'll match up to $1100 in donations, of which approximately $220 have been added already.

That's very generous of you.  What was the gofundme total at the start of your match?

It was sitting at $19,500 when I originally posted. One person has already contacted me saying they were donating partially inspired by that, so it would be unfair to move the goalposts. As of this post $240 have been added.

Replying to myself, it looks like $937 was donated this week so far, so good odds I'm may get maxed out to $1100. :)


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: Shiver on July 28, 2018, 09:39:30 am
Replying to myself, it looks like $937 was donated this week so far, so good odds I'm may get maxed out to $1100. :)

Awesome. Thanks so much for helping out Paul and Fred.


Title: Re: Support Dogar and Kazon, legal defense fund is up!
Post by: orzophile on July 29, 2018, 06:11:37 am
Donated $1100, thanks to everyone else that donated, whether inspired by this or not.