The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: LotBlind on August 10, 2019, 04:24:42 pm



Title: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: LotBlind on August 10, 2019, 04:24:42 pm
Gemini tested the hypermelee in SCII to see if the points values are correct. Assuming that's close enough to UQM to post here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO0Ja1iZms0


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: lostsoul on August 10, 2019, 06:43:14 pm
i thought shiver already figured this out?


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: LotBlind on August 11, 2019, 04:56:23 pm
Well actually, not all of what Gemini does is the first time it's been done: I think he does it for the sport. If there's a thread where shiver posted something similar, I couldn't find it just now. If you know where it is, I'm sure it'd be useful to compare.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: lostsoul on August 11, 2019, 08:29:46 pm
https://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Shiver/Balance_Mod/List_of_Changes


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: LotBlind on August 12, 2019, 05:36:39 pm
Right, well these works, believe it or not, can actually completent each other. I don't see anything about AI vs AI in what shiver did, and also he's only indirectly answered the question "how much should each ship be worth" since he's implemented tons of changes as well. If there's anything like the table gemini compiled, I don't see it in what you linked.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Shiver on August 12, 2019, 10:41:27 pm
i thought shiver already figured this out?

Shh! This video is super interesting. I also don't recall ever trying to map out the odds of every match-up in PvP, which would really be more of a "Shiver vs Gekko" map if such a thing were ever attempted.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: lostsoul on August 14, 2019, 10:34:03 pm
uh oh...i meant no disrespect...the more the merrier i say.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Death 999 on August 15, 2019, 04:36:44 am
He says the AI's defects won't have a big impact… but it definitely flies some ships well and some very, very poorly (Kohr-Ah, Earthling). I haven't watched the whole video to see if he notes this. I'll get to it…


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: PRH on August 15, 2019, 05:05:47 am
He says the AI's defects won't have a big impact… but it definitely flies some ships well and some very, very poorly (Kohr-Ah, Earthling). I haven't watched the whole video to see if he notes this. I'll get to it…

Not to mention that the AI's defects are exactly what makes some ships (like Spathi) so crazily effective against the AI.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Death 999 on August 15, 2019, 03:24:28 pm
Yeah. But my real complaint isn't that the AI is bad, it's that he took his results as solid anyway. For isntance, he called out the Supox as 'actually' being weak right after showing how the AI was flying it in a completely ludicrously stupid way.

I wonder if we could do a PVP version of this with enough dedicated netplay…


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Deus Siddis on August 16, 2019, 12:49:18 am
Has there ever been any attempt(s) to write more sophisticated AI player code?

I wonder if we could do a PVP version of this with enough dedicated netplay…

I think it might take a more multiplayer-active community.  It is not just the total hours needed to play every possible match up so many times for a decent sample size.  You would need to only consider the results of battles between top players. Further, you would need many dozens of consistent online players to know that your top players are experienced and well rounded in their play styles.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Shiver on August 16, 2019, 02:35:58 am
I think it might take a more multiplayer-active community.  It is not just the total hours needed to play every possible match up so many times for a decent sample size.  You would need to only consider the results of battles between top players. Further, you would need many dozens of consistent online players to know that your top players are experienced and well rounded in their play styles.

We had a playerbase for net melee for a few years. It was less than dozens playing at all hours, and it was over than a decade ago, but we had one.

I would worry that statistics based off games between net melee experts still wouldn't be that helpful. The top players all use Utwig as a Kohr-Ah counter, but that match-up doesn't go anywhere unless the Utwig player's blocking game is on point. It's a lot harder to pull off against a Kohr-Ah player, even a shoddy one, than the cyborg. We could list "Utwig hard-counters Kohr-Ah" using empirical evidence and the lower 50% of players might never be able to replicate that.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Death 999 on August 16, 2019, 02:58:47 pm
Yeah, it's complicated.


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Deus Siddis on August 17, 2019, 04:50:41 pm
So then what about using an improved AI for mass testing?

Are there any community-developed improved "cyborg" players for UQM?


Title: Re: SCII balancing "cracked"
Post by: Shiver on August 18, 2019, 06:39:26 am
Writing AI is said to be one of the most difficult parts of programming. There hasn't been much work done in this area by the fan community. I did a little for Project 6014 to get the Lurg Prawn to fight and made minor fixes to some of the core ships; e.g. stop Ur-Quan from launching fighters at cloaked Ilwrath. Anyone feeling motivated to write some AI is welcome to jump in and give it a try. A good place to start: Turn VUX into an actual threat for the campaign.