The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

OK, so I'll presume that the bulk of people reading this would consider themselves "fans" of the game, and that the bulk of those people would consider themselves "long-time" fans.  So I'll assume that the majority of readers have been knocking this game around for about 10 years now, and have come up with some "opinions" about it.  That said:

The stated purpose of the project up to version 1.0 is to produce a "straight port" of the 3DO version, with the exception of some neat gizmos that may have appeared in the PC version.  This means that all the plot holes, script errors, etc. are here in the short-term, but once the game reaches version 1.0, I think that the floor will be more open to some, er, fundamental changes to the game, that have the potential to make it even MORE satisfying to play.  So, if you had your way, what kinds of things would you like to see in UQM?  Note that I am referring to game events and fiction, NOT features.  There are other threads for that.  I'll try to get the ball rolling:

Things Nic Would Like To See Corrected in UQM 2.0:

• Problem: The Earth starbase is about to run out of fuel, killing everyone aboard, when the Captain shows up in the nick of time to save them.  However, when you visit other starbases, they are doing just fine.
  Proposed Solution: A slave-shielded world, near Ophiuchi or somesuch, with a non-populated, defunct starbase (i.e., they ended up like the Earth starbase would have if the Captain had not shown up) whose exploration could possibly give another hint about where the probes came from (perhaps it came under attack from probes in a weakened state?)
  
  
• Problem: The Zoq-Fot-Pik claim to have had all their colony worlds destroyed in the Doctrinal conflict, but all worlds in their sphere are completely unpopulated.
  Proposed solution: Worlds in Zoq-Fot-Pik space with burned-out cities on them, to back up their claims of collateral damage
  
  
• Problem: you are told in the game that the Mrnmhrrm abandoned their homeworld to be enslaved with the Chenjesu on Procyon.  So where is the old Mrnmhrrm homeworld?
  Proposed solution: An abandoned/destroyed Mrnmhrrm homeworld, or possibly the (defunct) Mother Ark, somewhere in their old sphere of influence
  
  
• Problem: After you give the Syreen their ships and awaken the Chmmr, they have no spheres of influence, even though they are able to (in the game) whomp on the Mycon and both Ur-Quan fleets, respectively.
  Proposed solution:Give the Syreen and Chmmr spheres of influence, and the ability to talk with their starship captains, once you give them their respective abilities to travel in space again.  The Chmmr sphere should probably look like the kind of thing that could annihilate both Ur-Quan fleets in two weeks, like the epilogue says they do.
  
  
• Problem: why is it that only shielded worlds have starbases?  It would seem that thralls/independents would need them more than shielded worlds.
  Proposed solution: Starbases around all starfaring races' homeworlds; going to them would be functionally equivalent to visiting the homeworld itself, but would make the homeworlds look capable of space travel :)  No starbase around the Mycon's "special place" @ Beta Brahe, to make it a little more obvious that it's NOT their homeworld.
  
  
• Problem: The Ur-Quan siblings have been at war for 8 years.  Shouldn't worlds in their sphere have destroyed colonies, mines, etc. to make it look like it's a war zone?
  Proposed solution: Destroyed worlds peppered throughout the "Doctrinal Conflict Zone", possibly with exploration text to make it clear that the Kzer-Za are losing.

What do you think?  Is there any plot point that has "bothered" you that you'd like to see "fixed"?  And if so, how would you suggest fixing it?

You mean no starbase around the special place.

Actually, what would a mycon starbase look like? Yikes.

I am at a loss to think of any other non-feature additions...

Oh yeah, a VUX homeworld other than the zoo planet would be good.

Same for Supox and Yehat, who if they have a homeworld I have never seen it.

Random crashed ships of other races besides Ur-Quan on other planets (no significance, perhaps placed on top of a large base metal deposit?). What are the chances that the only crash in the galaxy would be a Quan? Though this would involve a minor feature, perhaps encountering a crashed ship could give sight of the sphere of influence?

In true Soviet Revisionist fashion, I advise you to look again, because that's what I said!  ;)


Like all the other Hierarchy starbases, naturally.  :)


The VUX Homeworld is at Beta Luyten (433.3:168.7)


Beta Librae (741.4:912.4) and Gamma Serpentis (492.3:029.4), respectively.

I guess I never had reason to go any of those places.

Speaking of which, it would make a lot more sense if not EVERY supox captain had the Ultron, and you had to go to the homeworld to get it.

-Of course, this is just me talking, but how about some 'Synth that were away from Eta Vulpeculae when the Orz appeared. Not all of them could've been destroyed /captured at once. Just like the humans, there might've been a mission away to find a new planet. I know there are no files (or conversation pictures) of the Andro, but it'd be nifty. Maybe a crashed one that had enough of it's data left over to produce them at the starbase and have humans pilot them. I mean, they're near to next the same...
-Possibly some other remenants of the original brown Ur-Quan, before the Dynarri got their hands on them. Maybe near the Sylandro space, as they said they visited a bit.
-Biological remains of the Taalo. They're silicon based, so they'd probably not rot, and they could be worth tons to the Melnorme.
-If possible, the last known size of spheres of influence of the Alliance members, once you visit the starbase. It'd have to be a static map, I guess, but once you find them out, they'd start to move again.

I would like to add these:
1. Random Encounter in Quasispace with other ships: Arilou who dwell there,  and Umgah, Thraddash or  Ilwraths who accidently entered the portal.
2. Mouse oriented map (we're in the 21st century....)   possibly with notes (like tooltips) for planets we have information on.
3. The ability to read previous dialogs in order to recall information. ("Computer, replay my last dialog with the Orz please...")
4. Better GFX (see TimeWarp project for example).
5. An encounter with androsynth who doesn't know his race is gone... like a ship coming from a far away survay mission.
6. The arilou are NOT supposed to be happy if you bring Orz ships to their homeworld in Qspace.

These are my two cents... or half dosen... whatever....

-Aha, I'm not the only one that wants 'Synth back!
-A mousy map would be kind of difficult, as those stars are pretty small, unless they had  stick-points like an honest-to-God grid. Otherwise you'd have to be pretty precise on your aim.
-Yea, a log of conversations would be useful.(That way I don't have to use the stupid .txt file to look at em all! ;))

Primarily, restore some of the text that was lost between PC and 3D0....some of that is important stuff they left out.

Shipboard planetary database would be nice - ie, if you visit a system, it gets an entry of what's there, and any planets/moons you visit get important data.  Just an in game log of important places would be nice.  Heck, a simple keyboard notepad in game would be nice.  Captain's log, anyone?

That's what minimization and a text editor are for. Not good for fullscreen mode, I guess.

Anyway, this has been straying a lot from the plot only, no features subject.

Also, depending on what FF and PR3 intended, it may be that EVERY Androsynth MUST have been scooped up. We don't know, and for now I wouldn't feel comfortable adding it.

How about having the Rainbow Worlds mean more?  Why not have Fred and Paul add in a conversation like the originally intended?  Kind of like a "thanks" for everyone who worked on this port?  Heck, they could even use the two images that Yuki has on her website.  They'd work.

How about finding more percursor artifacts like you could find them in SC1?  Want to add more crew to that favorite Pkunk ship in your fleet?  Search the less visited stars for random relics.  

A cloaking device for the Flagship.  That would be slick, even if it doesn't add too much to the game ;)

Random "anomolies" in hyperspace.  Old ships that you could salvage for RU, random precursor artifacts, and as someone mentioned, ability to meet random aliens traveling in hyperspace when they are not in their sphere of influence.  Obviously, you'd run into less VUX outside their influence than inside, etc.

Edit: Upon reading my original post again, I noticed that I was giving "solutions" without clarifying what the "problems" were that I was trying to solve.  I have revised the original post to be more clear, I invite everyone to read the updated version to get a clearer picture of what kind of discussion I'm trying to provoke.  Sorry if there was any confusion.

The question I originally asked, restated, was "what plot holes do you see in the existing story told by UQM, and how would you suggest closing them?"

So, going down the list of suggestions so far:

• Re: Androsynth: You are told in the game "there are no more Androsynth, only Orz", and in the game you can find no Androsynth, only Orz.   Seems pretty consistent to me.
  
• Re: brown Ur-Quan: In the game, you are told that the brown Ur-Quan were split into the green and black Ur-Quan over 20,000 years ago whilst slaves of the Dnyarri, and in the game you only meet green and black Ur-Quan.  This also seems like a fairly solid plot point.
  
• Re: Taalo remains: There are any number of reasons that the Taalo would leave no remains behind, the most obvious stated in-game that the Orz are *playing* with them in *pretty space*  This sounds more like a request for a "credit cash-grab" than a description of a plot hole.
  
• Re: no encounters in QuasiSpace:  I agree with this, it is odd that you never see anyone else in QuasiSpace; I'm thinking that the "spawn rate" in QuasiSpace would have to be kept rather low, however, to keep such encounters from being an impediment.  Thoughts?
  
• Re: no Orz allowed:  How would you suggest correcting this?  Having all Nemesis ships in your fleet immediately destroyed upon talking with the Arilou @ Falayalaralfali?  If you do that, should the Orz attempt to reciprocate if you have any Skiffs in your fleet upon talking with them?  Most importantly, do you think that would that be any fun at all, or would it just piss people off to lose their hard-earned escort fleets?
  
• Re: PC texts:  They're coming.  But I don't think there are any plot points missing from the 3DO version, they just took out some of the "flavour".  But yes, more flavour is good.  Hopefully there will be recorded dialogue to match the PC texts some day.

More on the Androsynth:  I'm going to have to call y'all out on this one: exactly what purpose would they serve in UQM?  If they are introduced as enemies, they will kick your ass eight ways 'till Sunday.  If they are introduced as allies, um, how?  They hate Earthlings more than even the VUX, and the game already has two plots involving trying to make amends with a race of critters that hate you; one successfully (Thraddash) and one unsuccessfully (VUX).  Introducing them in the single-player game would either be an enormous plot hole, or would be implausible/redundant, and the topic of this thread is about closing plot holes and implausibilities.  This completely ignores the fact that every race has a certain "quest" associated with it, and they are all (mostly) inter-dependent.  Tacking on some Androsynth would be exactly that -- tacked on -- as their "quest" would be completely superfluous.

Agreed; the only suggestions that I see as what you're thinking of are your original suggestions and my idea that you have to go to the Supox homeworld to get the Ultron (though we'll have to cook up some way to lure a first-time captain there so they don't naively miss out on a vital arc).

Actually, the PC to 3D0 did lose a couple of quite important pieces of information - the mycon telling you about their homeworld, and they syreen telling you where Syra used to be.  The former especially makes the game hard on new folks, and players who haven't played it in a long time.

Right, but the plot is unchanged -- you still have the crazy mushroom men and the vengeful space vixens and the mad scheme to trick them into leaving their "special place" so that you may rob them blind.

The Syreen/Mycon missing lines are considered by me to be a bug in the current game; but the only way to "fix" the script with regards to the "missing" lines is to re-record all the speech for any given race so that all the samples match.  I have a friend who is a voice actor, and he has volunteered his services for this very purpose (i.e., re-recording all the Mycon dialogue), but that's a bit "too big" of a change for the 1.0 release, according to the core dev guys, so that bug is going to remain unfixed, for now at least, unless they can get Paul Reiche III to reprise his role as the insane fungus-man and read a couple of lines.

Syreen and Chmmr spheres of influence is a good idea. I also think there should be a Shofixti sphere that finds another habitable planet in another Gorno star. If there are no other life-sustaining planets in that cluster, change one of the lame planets to it. The conversations you can have with these should be consise and unimportant, like with the Spathi patrols after they've joined with you. The Chmmr sphere should be so huge that it envelopes the solar system, meaning that a few Chmmr guard our lovely home star near the end and maybe say slightly different things because of it.

How about the 'old map' idea for all the Alliance races? It might help new captains get off to a start trying to get the old Alliance races back. Naturally it wouldn't be completely accurate, such as in the case of the Syreen and the Arilou, but it would show them Procyon as Chenjesu, perhaps a question mark behind them before they explore there to discern between old and new spheres.

Yeah, it would also give a hint as to the Thraddash and Druuge. But how to accomplish this?

As far as Syreen planet locations, we can have them transmit it separately (and use the same computer voice to handle the translation computer message at the beginning of the Orz dialogue). That way we don't need to replace all of Talana.
Still, it will be a bit of a trick to figure out how to get the computer transmission into the flow of conversation.
*frumple*

As for the Mycon, it seems unlikely that they would transmit in that fashion, so getting the original seems like the best idea... what will be necessary to make that happen?

possible solution to the mycon thing: let the communications system "crash" when they are about to say the info, then there appears a small notification window like when something happened on a planet saying something like this: "Captain, the communication system failed to retrieve the info of their home planet coordinates, however, the mycon transmitted a message after the crash, saying "####:####", the coordinates of their home planet
--End of transmission--"

Personally, the thing that always bothered me was when ZEX's Beauty got loose in ZEX's ship, and was supposedly right behind him.  You should be able to see it!  I want a sprite image of the VUX Beast to move onscreen right before ZEX dies.  

Don't the lights go out then?

Wow, I can see it - beast Z walking on the bridge, then the sprite being cut in half and rotating to represent opening its mouth, a la Monty Python or South Park... Oh, and don't anti-alias the image after you scale it up 16x.

(reference: http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010308)

Plugging 8-bit theater to the SC2 boards, eh?

... I mentioned it before, didn't I? Funny, since I'm mainly a sluggy freelance fan. But it's an old-skool game comic, and a good one, so I guess it comes up a bit more often (that's why it came up this time, after all).

Well, being new to the UQM forums and such I'll not give you a very extended post, but here goes:

About the Androsynths: Yes, the orz indeed said that there where no more Androsynth. But also remember that when the orz can't *smell* you, they don't know if you are here or not. So if an Androsynth had left off for some kind of long distance mission, then the orz couldn't *smell* him, and they wouldn't know he's there. Ofcourse, the 'synths aren't needed to finish the game, but it might be somekind of "bonus quest"

about the brown Ur-quan: again they could be on somekind of long-range mission. Not knowing what happened to their original species. and it would make a cool bonus quest, but it would show a few plot holes.

the idea about the original alliance spheres is cool. You could mark 'm grey to show that you know that they are old. The crashed ships are also a good idea. And how about seeing the remnants of Zex' ship on the surface? the beast  running around on the surface etc.

so far my ideas. Keep up the good work ;D

In an interview with one of the designers, it came out that there really are no Androsynth. Only Orz.

Going slightly off tangent here, I'd like to say that I'm very thankful to D_999 for introducing me to 8-Bit theatre. An amzing comic.

Regarding the subject at hand, I agree with Nic. Lets just add the things that make sense witout changing the story line. I would love to meet a Synth as much as the next Guardian, but that's for the next game I think...

The "Old Map" could just be something you can view at the Starbase, if you ask the Commander. Or maybe it could be an object, activate to see what it looks like.

Also, regarding to spheres of influence, there should be something in the Arilou sphere as well, to explain it's presence. What that could be without changing the story I dunno. Mining operation maybe?

That, sir, is a fantastic idea.  Simple and straightforward in implementation and presentation, all it would take is a single PNG file and a few lines of code at the Starbase.  Unless you wanted to be able to navigate using the old map, of course.  :)


Go ask them what they're doing there in-game.  They'll gladly tell you that they're chasing *Nnngn* in one of their "easy places".  That's a good enough explanation for me.  ;)

Another Problem: The Zoq-Fot-Pik tell you that they have been basically unseen by both the Ur-Quan and the Kohr-Ah, yet sometimes upon entering Alpha Tucanae, the place is crawling with Dreadnoughts/Marauders.
Proposed Solution: Make it such that the ZFP home star is free of fleets at all times (save the "worse than Zebranky!" attack), so that their dialog matches game events.
Corollary: The ZFP claim to be exploring the quadrant, so random encounters with their scout ships in solar systems would be a nice touch.  Perhaps you could get those "what's going on?" reports from them without having to go to the homeworld.

I think the thing with the Zot-Foq-Pik is not that they were unnoticed (it's hard to miss an entire spacefaring race) but more that they were so insignificant that neither side could be bothered to attack them.  Waste of resources.  

As far as random encounters in QuasiSpace go, it would have to be extremely rare.  Like 1:100.  It might be amusing that, if you DO stumble upon another ship, they're lost and confused.  ("*WHIMPER*  We're lost!  *SNORT*  TELL US WHERE WE ARE!") and you've got the choice of either doing them the favor, sending them to "meet" the Arilou (snicker), or just blasting them.  There's some real comedic potential there, such as an Ur-Quan stumbling into QuasiSpace and having to actually ask for help.

I agree, the Orz and Arilou should be at least irritated if you bring "the enemy" to their homeworld.  Perhaps nothing as drastic as destroying them, but at least yelling at you about it. (or refusing to talk to you until you get rid of their ships?)  It might be a bit irritating for the player, but it would underscore the importance of diplomacy in the universe.

A Chmmr sphere of influence would be great.  Like if it's staggeringly big, and immediately takes up the entire area out to, say, Earth. (and by that point, there'd be no other viable races in the area, so their rapid expansion would be believable - they just took over deserted Ilwrath and Pkunk space)

The Melnorme "Doomsday Countdown" should be put back in somehow.  It's good for first-time players to have a rough idea what the game's time limit is.

I've always questioned the fact that you can convince the Syreen of the Mycon attack simply by bringing them the shards from Syria.  I'm not sure they'd fall for it, and it IS a really nasty trick to play.

Completely random addition:  you should be able to make a non-aggression treaty with the Kaer-Za.  The Ur-Quan are, above all, devistatingly pragmatic.  At the point your ship is capable of taking out Kohr-Ah without getting touched, and have killed a large enough number of both Ur-Quan, it would be logical that they would try to forge a pact with you.  I'm thinking about those very resigned conversations with Ur-Quan commanders late in the game, where they still attack you even knowing that they're losing the war, and they will almost certainly be destroyed by you.  Seems far more logical that, out of desperation, they'd offer some sort of treaty. (it makes sense plot-wise (in fact would enhance the sense of impending doom), and at that point in the game, it wouldn't really affect gameplay at all since you CAN wipe out Dreadnaughts instantly)

The Supox should have more to do.  Don't know what, but their presence in the game seems almost completely unnecessary.

Would one want to navigate by the old map though? I mean, lets face it, the stars are all in the same places. The only thing that wil differ between the new and old map is the position of the spheres, and the existence of a few extra. Might as well use the new one to find out what things are like nowadays... Otherwise there's gonna have to be some sort of possibility to choose version every time you go to the starmap....

As for the Nggn.. Well, you are right of course, I just never considered that their main reason, it sounds so insubsantial... But, point taken.

If the Orz and Arilou are annoyed by the presence of eachother, and comment upon it, that once more means we have to add more speech.... Which is a bummer.

As for the non-aggression pact, I doubt it would even occur to them. They've been doing things the way they do for 20k years. A few random encounters with a human in a precursor service vessel probably wont change this.

And I do believe that the ZFP were indeed unnoticed, as they state in the game. After all, when the Kohr-Ah find them, they do try to remedy the situation immediately.

It shouldn't be too hard to get back out.. .just go to one of the holes.



agreed.



Syria is under Earth's slave shield.
;)



No. No no no no no. VERY un-Ur-Quan.

I know the pact seems out of character, but think about it.  Would the Ur-Quan REALLY be the type to accept death before dishonor?  They're too pragmatic.  They *know* they're losing, and they know you're tooling around in a ship that can blow up Dreadnaughts from parsecs away.  It's kind of my point - late in the game, things have gotten so bad that the Ur-Quan, the terrible evil rulers you're supposed to hate, are offering a peace treaty because they know they're about to lose the war with the Kohr-Ah.  How's that for an indication of just HOW bad things have gotten?  It strikes me as more out of character that they would choose the destruction of all sentient life as preferable to asking for help.  (although I would buy that it simply doesn't occur to them to ask)
 But then of course, I make this argument mainly because the Ur-Quan are pretty much my all-time favorite bad guys in any game.  I love how they were set up as the ultimate Evil, but then by the end, you find out their actions are logical and justifiable, if arguably wrong-headed.  (from their point of view, they're doing the only thing possible to prevent the destruction of the universe)

 And by Syria, I meant the original homeworld that the Mycon blew up, not the replacement the Ur-Quan found.  

They already DO extend a peace treaty in the game as it stands now -- they implore you to surrender to them, and offer amnesty to your crew if you do.  Of course, the plan also involves killing the Captain and senior officers, so if you surrender the game ends, but the option is already there, and in a manner much more consistent with their character.

Huh?  How is this a trick?  The Mycon did destroy Syra, and left a deepchild eggsheath behind.

I just got Death_999's joke about Syria (not Syra).

Speaking of spheres of influence.. It seems kind of odd that the conservative and intelligent Commander Hayes should pin the entirety of his hopes on one dinky little ship. While it opens up the plot hole of 'why don't -I- get access to -all- the resources?', it strikes me that it would be relatively simple to begin truly mining the moon, Mars, and Mercury, to build the beginning of a real warfleet. Perhaps to reflect this, humanity could have a slowy expanding sphere of influence, no futher than the Centauris at the victory of the Kohr-Ah, patrolled by mainly Human Cruisers, but perhaps a smattering of allied ships, with a special subset of 'alliance' dialogue.

I really like the idea of other destroyed cities and ships scattered throughout the galaxy.  perhaps also some old mines that could offer a great deal of minerals when you visit.  And some more artifacts such as those in SC1 which you could apply to one of the ships in your fleet, and maybe some other, very non-essential items just to add a bit of new challenge for experienced people to find them.

Regarding the Ur-Quan, they are not quite as pragmatic as you say.  It would be very practical for them to employ the Sa-Matra in battle as they did in the first doctrinal conflict, rather than saving it to be a trophy for the winner.

Oh, and about the androsynth, i very strongly oppose their introduction to UQM.  the Orz specifically said there were no more androsynth here.  However, if you guys are cooking up a sequel, I think the Synth are in *prettyspace*, and could be met there...

I like the idea of cruisers patroling Sol and some surrounding systems after some resources have been built up.

On the Chmrr, however, i dont think its logical to make their sphere of influence huge right away.  they were just freed from the slave shield, and the Process was finnished prematurely.  they would need time to build up a fleet.  (On one of the really old battleboard posts we discussed that it probably took much more than a few weeks to subdue the UrQuan and Kohr Ah.)

Oh, and it always bugged me that the only thing you could find on Zex's planet was the shofixti maidens when in all actuality, he had a big menagerie and a military base there.  at least some graphics and text would be cool.

Enough of my ranting.

I agree with the earthling sphere but i would suggest something like this:

the commander suggests that if you store enough res, say something huge like 50k, he offers the option to begin mining operations in the local systems

the benefits would be that you start earning a small amount of res every day/month whilest the rest of the res generated goes to making the sphere grow bigger

and then once the sphere grows enough, earthling cruisers become free at the starbase

This is all assuming that we have any of the equipment, or blueprints for the equipment needed to sttart a major mining operation on a planet.Somehow I fear that the Quan didn't leave that on the station, and that the Captain didn't think to bring anything like that back from Vela...

Also, the only humans you have access on in the game are the ones on the starbase, I don't think there's quite enough people there to both stock all these cruisers, your flagship, and a bunch of mines in different systems....

I'll have to disagree... since most players (I think) only put up to 200 crewmen in their ship at the same time, and I had already killed 1000 crewmembers (according to Hayes) in a previous game, where I had NO allies at all... I think that you underestimate the number of crewmen aboard.

About the mining. What if you where to find plans for this scattered around the systems. Like, in destroyed fraighters and stuff... it would be a nice 'bonus quest' and it may solve the little issue about it.

And maybe a little more interactivity between Hayes, and the current situation. Once, when I played the game for the first time, I had the Kohr-ah's sphere over the starbase, and Hayes never commented it once. As well as new races. Once you meet new ones (ZFP, Utwig, supox, thraddash etc.) their info should be available with Hayes. especially with allies.
Note to UQM crew: sorry 'bout this... it will probably involve new speach and stuff... but it IS a good idea. (if not, let me know)

and about the androsynths (last time, I promise) you could also find the blueprints for the ships, in like the 4th city ruin (after the 3rd your crew doesn't report it anymore so...) and since the Androsynth are very much like humans, their ships should be flyable by humans. And if the human sphere thing works out, you could also meet guardians flown by humans.

just for those that like to see it, it doesn't involve the race itself, but the awesome ship that alot of people seem to like so much...

Well, we could fly them if we could find anyone to volunteer having a coax cable put in the base of his skull... and we could remember how to do so. I'm pretty sure that the differences between human and Androsynth are pretty important to interfacing with the Guardian.

Also, there are 1900 crew on the starbase. I think it would be reasonable to have a mining operation kind of thing set up, (free RU per time, starting about a month after you set it up; will pay for itself after about a year and a half -- say, 500 days?).

But I think it would be pointless to build cruisers to patrol Earth, since if the UQ show up, it's curtains no matter how many they have (such a small group must rely on other means for victory).

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the captain earning RUs from mining every month/week/day whatever. If any mining operations were begun, they should be restricted to the moonbase and the moon base only.

About the Earthling sphere of influence - it was itty-bitty, but still... wouldn't there at least be smashed cities and the like left behind? A few slaveshielded colonies with abandoned/destroyed/mothballed starbases, perhaps? It seems it would be easy to put in the little lander-mission text, like at the Procyon starbase. They could offer helpful clues to newbie players / fun little facts.

My vote is behind the "old" starmap <the one in SC2 though, with the "unknowns" and such> entirely.

<referring to 1st post of thread> How would the Mother Ark of the Mrnmhrrm be implemented? Like the Sa Matra, with a sorta mini-version orbiting a blasted world? I think that would be cool, but it would have to be a large silvery world. Like the moon. Or, didn't they say they woke up around an airless moon in the manual? Perhaps around a gas giant? But in what system? One of the Virginis constellation?

<referring to one of the posts on the first page> I think a Captain's Log would be a highly cool feature. You could have it store old conversations by date <and you can expand 'em to full size for easy browsing> and keep track of what planets you've visited, what ships you've destroyed, how much RU / Credits you've harvested, etc. But, not being a programmer, I have no idea how ludicrous that request is.

Starbases around major planets / homeworlds would be nice. One thing that bugged me was that the aliens seemed just a tad 2-d. I mean, they only had their /homeworlds/. No thriving interstellar trade/commerce/civilization. Changing that would be cool, like having the systems with water worlds or habitable zones inside spheres of influence should have blasted cities in war areas or colonies/starbases. Starbases around gas giants and stuff would also be cool <I wouldn't mind seeing more stuff in the Sol system, after all it was the last stronghold of humanity. how about an abandoned star base at Jupiter or the like? Crashed cruisers?>

Just my thoughts.

1 zek should have a castle and when he dies you find all this neat stuff
2 keep androsynth you might get them on your side i hate the orz
3 set up mines and you need to have cargo ships

well, that's for THEM to do, not this team. In the direction of SC3, the best we are looking at is having this inspire enough support that we can get Fred and Paul to return to the Star Control world themselves and make a good sequel to supplant the steaming file of bytes that is SC3.

 ::)who built the mmrnmhrm no one said the precursors built them)idea the race that made them show upwith more mother arks and start there colony 12 dif race of aliens good guys
the united galactic acord and they help fight both the green
and black Ur-Quan till the green Ur-Quan play hid and seek ;D :o

That was what I had in mind as I was writing it.  Just some kind of "big space thing" in orbit around a planet, that you can run into and have your team explore it; it would have no real "value" other than to make the game seem a little "bigger", the story a bit more "complete", and to possibly throw another hint on the pile re: the Chenjesu/Mrnmhrrm.  That was the intent behind all of my suggestions, note that if you read them closely, they offer no monetary gain whatsoever (a point that seems to have been lost on some other participants to this discussion) but have the potential to add tons of "atmosphere" to the game, for those who pay attention to such things.

mines: no.

the VERY BEST part of SC2 was planetary exploration. Admit it! At least, it was to SOME people. So ruining it with "mines" and crap like that in SC3 is out of the question.

Androsynth: The Andros... are DEAD, people. At least, they were dead in SC2. The point is, they're out of the reach of the Captain and any other players. You shouldn't be able to "revive" them or "rescue" them from the evil orz in a game that's SUPPOSED to be about the Ur-Quan <Hence the title: The Ur-Quan Masters>. I'm not saying having the Andros come back later is out of the question, but it's in a total tangent to the overall plot of the game of SC2. I personally like the idea of bringing them back, but in a different game. Maybe an expansion after the Ur-Quan are defeated or something like that.

Besides... the Orz kick ass. Don't be a *sad cow* and hate the *happy campers* in their *Taalo playground*. I will become *frumple* and we shall *dance*. Besides, even if they are evil nasties, they invented the word *frumple*. And THAT is a noble accomplishment.

Zex having a castle: please be joking. please, please, please be joking. I'm thinking maybe a moonbase-like fortress or military complex and stuff, but no "cool stuff". That's just absurd. Next you'll be proposing a radical redesign of the Precursor Service Vessel!

The Mother Ark was the first Mmrnmhrm. Not an actual ark of any kind, at least, not like the biblical variety of arks. 12 extra races = no.

Oh! A thought: If the Chmmr get a sphere of influence, which they should, it should expand slowly. And it would be real neat if they built colonies and space stations and the like.

Hmmm: I like the idea of there being tons of starbases around: perhaps allied ones you can buy fuel from? but nothing more, you need to be dependent on Earth Starbase.

About Zex - I'd like the surface of the planet to have a lot critters and the ability to re-capture the bad monster to sell back to the Melnorme.

Chmmr - Have their sphere of influence start small and grow quickly, the game is almost over when they awaken (at least for me it was) so I think every time you access the starmap, the Chmmr sphere should grow significantly until they start making headway into Ur-Quan space.

you think that would be best? I guess I'd suggest that the Chmmr sphere expands slowly but also moves towards the Ur-Quan space. You could change the rates of movement and expansion so Chmmr space always has Procyon, but i don't think they should cover the /map/. I know they beat up the ur quan in a few weeks, but then again, they've also been in stasis for a while. I just don't think they should have a sphere of influence any bigger than the Ur-Quan's, is all. I think it's a bit too much power for them to build up so quickly. I get the feeling Chmmr power isn't in space, but in a single few large fleets that they smash the Ur-Quan with. They're more concentrated, that's it.

Has everybody forgotten about the Black Spathi Squadron?!!!  I know I spent countless hours searching for them.  I always hoped to find them on some backwaters planet outside of a sphere of influence (but near the Spathi sphere) slowly biding their time until they could help the 'cowardly' Spathi rise up against the Ur-Quan.  They'd be a welcome addition.

I too think this would be a neat idea, but with a spin on it.  I think you should find them on some random world, but the actual "group" would only be like 3 spathi ships or something.    Not even a full squadron.  The black ships with red stripes would be from the paint being wearing off their "red" ships.  They are like a bunch of "merc" Spathis that can barely keep their ships flying, much less painted.  Basically, their mythos would have grown larger than they really are.  ;)  Just the fact that they are "merc" like in their ways, the "normal" Spathi over-glorified them and they spread "rumors" to other people like the humans (and Cmdr Hayes).  Which would explain why they never really accounted for anything and why you never saw them in the *original* game.

Black Spathi certainly sound like a good idea. What would you have them do though? I mean, if they join you, we need a new ship (not very new, but different still) if they don't, they'll just be a random conversation, they certainly can't giver you anything. Well, they would be interesting trivia at hte very least

As for the mining, I like the ideas of finding some old blasted mining station on pluto or something with blueprints and such.However, I still think mining would be very hard. I mean, while the technology used is certainly much better than today, I still imagine you'd have to tie down quite a lot of resources in the project (transports, mining equipmnet, rations for miners, fuel, air and water...) for it to become cost effective very quickly. Once you have a mine set up with replicators and whatnot, maybe it'd run just fine. Or maybe all these personnel you have on the starbase who've never done any mining would pull the wrong switch and blow themselves to kingdom come.

And over a thousand ppl? Sure, but seeing as you (in the game) don't know how many you are going to eed before it's over, you might not want hem too spread out. Also, does anyone remeber, how many are absolutely essential to running the staion?

As for Zex base, maybe there could be another graphic, and a more detailed transmission from the lander crew, buth what else would you want from there? There's nothing but critters down there....

A couple of things:

1. Hayes specifically mentions that he "has 1900 men and women under his command", and that is well-emphasized by having him mention your loss of a thousand crew and their price rising following that. However - nothing at all happens when you pack up the remaining 900 crew and beyond. I checked. Both as a plot-hole fix and as a bit of an added challenge, I think the price should again rise - even more dramatically - at 1500 and then at 1800, each time mentioning how crew is running out. Then, after having recruited 1900 crew, this option is no longer available. The only solution is to get the Shofixti to replenish the base's stock. Actually, this is mostly theoretical, as even the freshest of newbies is unlikely to lose 1900, or even 1500 for that matter. But that's good, because the game should still be winable if the Shofixti thing somehow goes wrong.

2. Hayes really doesn't say anything about the Kohr-Ah starting their whole cleansing trip, not even when their sphere surrounds Sol or when they're specifically coming for you. The the game is practically over at these times, it's only logical that Hayes will urge you to make haste so that not all be lost. Besides, a huge armada of Kohr-Ah closing in on the starbase from all directions would be a nice touch.

3. Added starbases and possibly colonized planets, good idea. Adding the wrecked Mother Ark - I second the idea. Having starbases or new colonies pop out of nowhere, signifying "build-ups" or natural growth, no. Changing the original code s hard as it is without needing to add new orbits in-game.

4. I agree with what's been said about the Androsynth: Having them around in UQM is against the basic plot concept of the whole thing. Finding them locked up in *pretty space* (which has gone **frumple**, as you may recall) is a splendidly good idea - for a sequel, not here. And besides, I don't think that a long range exploration mission could stop the Orz from *smelling* them, obviously a trans-dimensional ability that transcends space and possibly time. The Orz got them all, no doubt there, but no one said they're all DEAD. Just gone. Great sequel stuff.

5. Old sphere-of-influence map: Interesting idea, that could be incorporated by having the spheres appear after having spoken with the commander about information about old Alliance races, thus eliminating the need of extra dialog. Alternatively, an old map could look significantly different than the curent stellar map, giving the SC1 rotating-star-map effect.

6. Forget about mines. The idea is alien to a game built so heavily around exploration, and is besides impractical for such underequipped, understaffed civilizations such as the post-war Earthlings.

7. I second the idea of adding other crash-landed craft, and especially precursor items. Exploration never ceases!

8. Lastly, though it obviously entails a lot more work than it's actually worth, it would be nice if the Ilwrath (Dill-Rats?) would actually be using the new pronounciation rules given to them by "their gods", perhaps Thraddash-style.

I guess I should shut up now.  :-X

*applauds loudly at the Talking Pet*

I totally agree. I mean, with 1900 people, Hayes *might* afford to let a few of 'em <maybe 100> go to have cruisers patrolling Sol, but I think that might be too much. Besides, that space station is huge. I mean, they can fill out the spine of a massive Precursor Service Vessel in under a day with modules. That must take tons of people to run.

BSS: Cool. Actually, the only use that I see for them is giving you some spathi ships after they slaveshield their homeworld. Perhaps a limited amount, like a group of 12 or so that hang around the starbase after you get them on your side? You can take them from the group up to a certain amount. Maybe the BSS are activated if you still have Fwiffo when Spathiwa is slaveshielded. But really, I can't imagine any other use.

I would really like to see this, great suggestion. It's good to see that there are almost no plotholes mentioned in this thread it says a lot about the quality of the game :) .

On another note: There's a lot more scientific information on some of the planets of the solarsystem then there was when the game was made, maybe it would be nice to change the planet maps/images of the planets and moons in the solar system to match with how they look in real life. Might be too much work though.

1) Saturn has more moons than Jupiter. If we could get those in, even if there are zero minerals on them (having already been mined out, probably), it would be way cooler than just the one we have, which looks silly sitting there alone.

2) Speaking of Saturn -- RINGS on GAS GIANTS!

I wouldn't add extra moons, currently the game only shows the large moons in the solar system (roughly equal in size to our moon and bigger) which is a good thing. saturn has only one big moon, as in sc2, jupiter four. Adding all the moons would create a huge mess since jupiter and saturn both have well over fourthy moons each :o.... It would be nice if the game used real maps of mars/io/ganymede instead of the current ones though. But it's not much of an issue, it doesn't have any gameplay implications, so it might be better left unchanged, It isn't that important.

Now this is rather a trivial point, and correcting it would mean altering the speech files a bit (which I know is a slim chance), but when you first reach the Earth starbase, Hayes tells you to find the radioactives at Mercury.

He can't scan your vessel, so he has no idea who you are or what race you belong to. Why does he assume that you know which planet is called Mercury? Shouldn't he tell you that you can find the radioactives on the planet closest to this system's sun?

Well, probably he figured that if you didn't understand, you'd ask.

Then add the function to ask this ;D pretend to be the awesomely strong 'unidentifyable' stranger.

Would be neat.

With regard to Precursor items:  The point of precursor items in Starcon was, quite simply, to encourage players to play offensively and to explore.  Any player who boxed themselves in by only fortifying the systems around their starbase eventually had a fleet of "super-ships" knocking on their door.  So it was in every player's best interests to rummage around the systems looking for upgrades, if only to keep them out of the hands of their opponent.  In SC2/UQM, exploration is the entire point of the game, so that "itch" has effectively been "scratched" already.  And Sc2/UQM already has Precursor items; I seem to recall ten of them, arranged in a pattern, that you can collect and use to get fuel, upgrades for your flagship, and information :P

Also, in Starcon, the items and their locations were distributed randomly around the system, and the upgrades were non-transferrable; whichever ship landed on them first got them, and kept them.  This was good, because players could either explore with multiple ships and gain their upgrades quickly (and have multiple "super-ships"), or explore with a single ship and create an upgraded "mega-ship" (at the cost of slower exploration)  As proposed so far, the upgrades would be done in the opposite fashion:  they would be found by the lander on planet surfaces, and transferred to/installed on the ship of the captain's choice.  And since the game is wired the way it is (currently), they would have to live on the same planets every time.  Since the "character" of the upgrades would be in such contrast to the original version, and since there is already an upgrade path (if only for the flagship), I can completely understand their omission from SC2/UQM, and support keeping them out.  Besides, "perma-shielded" Terminators have no place in the Sa-Matra battle.

With regard to Mines: As proposed so far, I would posit that if you had enough resources to get a mine running, you wouldn't need to.  e.g., if you've got 50K RUs sitting around, you can buy as much fuel as you're ever going to need, and can safely ditch your cargo bays for the remainder of the game.  In that case, why bother with mines?  They would be a pointless and costly distraction, and would add nothing to the game at that point.

Also, according to the story and current game dialog, the Precursor ship is supposed to be HUGE.  Far bigger than any Hierarchy vessel, it requires much, much more maintenance and fuel.  All starbase resources are supposed to be put towards just keeping that colossal bucket of bolts held together, which is supposed to be why the Commander raises such a stink about losing too many crew in the game.

Solution Looking for a Problem:  I think that a very nice addition to the game would be for ships in hyperspace to be able to "follow" you in and out of star systems; i.e., not only do the probes follow you around hyperspace, but they chase you around the planets as well.  This would make them seem much more tenacious, and would augment the severity "probe problem" quite nicely.  Thoughts?

Me likey the idea of ships following you into the planet system. It would prevent the 40 or so Ur-Quans of various persuasions who sit on your planetary system's door step waiting for you to inevitably come out that you have to fight before going on.
Has anyone ever had to fight so many ships that you just gave up and started the game over?

Of course. If you played SC2 properly (not cheating and not using spoilers), I think everyone ran into this.  And the frustration of not saving in a few hours and losing all that work
:P

I like this idea, just so long as the "ships" give up after awhile.  I don't like the idea of 100 Ur-Quan chasing me through Pkunk Space.  Or 50 Probes chasing me for the rest of the game.  Easy way to get around this is that once you leave their sphere of influence, they give up.  I.e. they have better things to do than track down a UFO in hyperspace.  Probes could give up after a certain amount of time or distance is put between you and them.  I.e. they have programming that decides the target is not worth its while to "break into material components" and instead goes looking for a nice asteroid instead.

Then again, if the Kohr-Ah and Ur-Quan followed you around in their sphere of influence to  the solar systems, I doubt anyone would venture into it until the end of the game or absolute necessary.  I think it would make things like the Syreen vault quest much more difficult and risky.

Basically, this is a hardcore feature for advanced players and it should be an option to turn on and off.

In the game enemy's already don't follow you out side of their sphere of influence. This is only talking about the ships that wait outside the system for you to come out would now actually join you in the system you are visiting and exit hyperspace to do so.
That way, if you wish to aviod confrontation just whip around them, leave them in the system for a second, and exit to hyperspace again and, boom, they wouldn't be there anymore because they're in the system you were visiting. They would again be able to follow you out of the system into hyperspace, but then they'd be a bit behind you.
Is that what you were talking about Nic?

That is how the game works currently; most ships give up after pursuing you a short distance outside their sphere of influence, and even the probes will only follow you for so long before giving up (usually this occurs after they have gone out of radar range, but sometimes you can see them "blink out")  and I see no reason to change it.  But since the Ur-Quan at Unzervalt claimed to have tracked back your ship from Hyperspace, it would be somewhat more "complete" to see other ships in the game do the same, and follow you out of Hyperspace after they "notice" you there.

And I don't believe it is either a "hardcore feature" nor a means to a "dodge maneuver", although depending on implementation, it may be both.  :)

Nic:

Let me see if I can satisfactorily explain some of your perceived plot holes...



A possible explanation can be made by assuming that the Earth Starbase is the only one close to running out of fuel and that no other Starbases will run out of fuel before the Kohr-Ah perform their cleansing operation.

It is also logical to assume that each Starbase's refueling needs could be different and that the Kzer-Za's refueling schedule is setup such that no 2 Starbases run out of fuel at the same time.



A possible explanation is that only slave-shield worlds get Starbases for the soul purpose of the Ur-Quan to come around and check on their slaves when refueling the Starbase. I think one of the alien races hints at that.



A possible explanation to this can be made by making assumptions from the fact that there is no sign of a warzone:

1. Both the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za and the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah are nomadic space empires as stated by them.
2. Their fleets are completely self sufficient (as they claim they are self sufficient) and can be nomadic.
3. Since their fleets are self sufficient and they are nomadic, they have no need of terrerstrial colonies.
4. Since there are no signs of a warzone, the Doctrinal Conflict is being waged in space (albeit near gravity wells) - fleet against fleet, spacecraft against spacecraft.

This could be the reason why there is no warzone. Also, if you use SC1 to back up the fact that the Kzer-Za do indeed have colonies, I would state that there are quite a few inconsistencies between SC1 and SC2 (the timeline being a huge discrepency) and that the strategic game in SC1 has no bearing on the storyline of SC2.



But the Kohr-Ah do eventually find the ZFP. Since the Doctrinal Conflict is apparently being fought throughout the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah spheres of influence "near gravity wells", then it makes sense for them to be in Alpha Tucanae.

On the mining issues:

Even though Commander Hayes supports you, there is no need to risk activity in the Sol system outside of their help for your Precursor vessel. Imagine if the Kzer-Za did come back and noticed the new activity in the Sol system with mining, space-faring fleets, etc.. The Earthlings would be severely punished for such a transgression. A Dreadnought did find Vela after all.

A case could be made that if the Ur-Quan showed up they'd find out about all the stuff going at the Starbase anyway and then why not mine anyway. I think, though, the Starbase can scan vessels coming into Sol and they'd probably have a enough time to hide what's going on their before the Dreadnought showed up - maybe. At least there wouldn't be activity at any of the other planets - a dead give away. :-[

Also, they could trace the Precursor vessel to the Starbase, but Hayes can say that they didn't know who it was (some big unknown spaceship) and simply quote what he said at the beginning of the game and they told the ship to leave. ;)

Also, they build Cruisers as you need them - there's no stockpile for the Kzer-Za to see and there's no reason they would know about the plans if know one tells them. :-X

With the current plot, there is no reason to suspect anything from the Humans if a Kzer-Za Dreadnought comes through and checks up on them. Hayes can tell them that the Ilwrath or Spathi resupplied them because they were low on radioactives. ;) Since the Earth is still slave shielded and the Doctrinal Conflict is raging, there would be no need for the Ur-Quan to verify the story.

If the Kzer-Za start snooping around, though, there'd be a big problem!  >:(

On the BSS:

You actually believe the Spathi?! They're just BSS'ing you! There is no Black Spathi Squadron - they're just trying to scare you so that you'll leave them alone and stay out of their sphere of influence. The BSS has gotten quite a bit of press from the various SC2 sites, though, and the BSS has arisen out of myth.

I wouldn't be opposed to Fwiffo starting the BSS, though, after you take out, say, 30 Kohr-Ah Marauder's with Fwiffo's ship and without losing a single crew member. After "kicking some serious alien butt" he gets a spine. "Hi, I'm Fwiffo, the backbone of the BSS!"

On finding aliens in Quasispace:

There is no reason for the Arilou to tell anyone other than their children where the portal is. And since the portal is outside the sphere of influence of any aliens, there is no real reason for the Umgah (or any other thrall) to go looking for it. The Melnorme know about it, but that's about it. Also, if anyone else entered the Arilou would be fools not to destroy them immediately - it is their homeworld after all. So it seems like adding spaceships to Quasispace would be inconsistent with the story.

Well, maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong...

The Earth starbase problem was due to neglect, not bad timing.  Their refueling schedule was every five years, and the Ur-Quan were (very) late for their appointment.  The Chmmr abandoned their starbase, so the fuel needs were probably very reduced, and since the Syreen starbase would be sustained by their starfleet once their ships are retrieved, there's no good reason for another "rescue the starbase" plot, but it could only help advance/enhance the plot to see a slave-shielded world, with an unknown alien race underneath, and a defunct starbase that ran out of fuel due to the same neglect that affected Earth.


But why should the Utwig, Supox and Druuge care at all about Ur-Quan policies?  This reasoning is apologist at best.


Then why do the Ur-Quan bother to set up starbases at all, if they don't actually need them?  It stands to reason that they actually do need all the trappings of a space war (as put forth by starcon) and stumbling upon ruined bases in the war zone would be a nice enhancement.  But i'm just playing around with ideas, anyhow; noone says any of this will actually go anwhere.


"they have never found our homeworld, only our colony planets."
--The Pik

True, they should (and do) stumble upon it eventually, but they are supposed to be unseen by the Ur-Quan siblings for the duration of the game.

I'd say that it would be a nice touch atmosphere-vice if Hayes would sometime during the game inform you that an Ur-Quan Dreadnought had been at the starbase asking some questions about a large unknown spaceship...



Actually the Spathi never say a word about BSS, it is commander Hayes who tells you the rumor. However, where that got started is another thing altogether...



The Spathi do mention that they noticed a star that appeared on 17th and disappeared on 20th(=the portal). Therefore it would seem logical that pretty much anyone could notice it (although the probability would be low) and take a look a bit too close.

Any dreadnought that stopped by Sol would not be able to help but notice that the EarthGuard forces were gone and the spy drone was no longer on it's patrol.  I think this would lead them to ask quite a few questions on topics other than an "unknown spaceship", and god help us all if they decide to check up on the Spathi and Ilwrath to see why they have abandoned their posts.

In other words, I think that such a plot element would introduce more problems than it would "correct", especially since in the game, it is already taken care of:  the Ur-Quan figure out that the renegade humans are from Unzervalt, not Earth, and they put the red glow smackdown on that planet as soon as they can.  From that perspective, I'm sure they consider the problem "solved".

The only genuinely problematic plot hole I've noticed so far is as follows:
1. The Doctrinal Wars would not have the started had the Kohr-Ah any concept of foreign relations that didn't involve genocide. The Kohr-Ah positively will not tolerate ANY life forms other than their own species.
2. Ur-Quan(Presumably both Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah) territorial instincts are so strong they are psychologically incapable of sharing a ship with one another, even one as colossal as a dreadnought(The Sa-Matra is another matter, I suppose).

Therefore, by simple deduction

3. Kohr-Ah ships have a total crew of one.  ???

This is evidently false. Kohr-Ah crews number in the dozens, each crew member alive, well, and perfectly susceptible to Syreen seduction. A classic tale of Girl Meets Squid/Caterpillar/Thingie.

A few offhand solutions that spring to mind:
1. Robots, delicious, gratuitous robots. Of course, since the Mmrmnnmrmnrnmnrmnmnrmnetc. pretty much monopolize the halfway sophisticated robot market, these would probably have to be Milieu era tech, probably purchased from the Melnorme.
2. Ubertweaked talking pets? A bit anticlimactic, but changes little of the original plot of SC2, and therefore worth consideration.
3. Any takers? I wouldn't recommend allowing the Kohr-Ah to actually overcome their territoriality. If it were that easy, the Kzer-Za would be way ahead. Well, not way ahead, since necessity is the mother of invention, but I still don't think such an important aspect of either race should be dismissed so lightly.

Did I say "purchased"? :-[

Here's the biggest inconsistancy I can see:

Melnorme:
Instead of destroying the Kohr-Ah, the Kzer-Za let them go
directing them to make their way through the stars, travelling against the spin
of the galaxy.
The Kzer-Za would travel in the opposite direction...


Lander crew:
---- REPORT FROM SURFACE ----
WE HAVE FOUND AN IMMENSELY POWERFUL HYPERWAVE TRANSMITTER HERE ON THE SURFACE OF THIS MOON. IT IS SENDING A STRONG HYPERWAVE SIGNAL OUTWARD, INTO THE UNEXPLORED, ANTI-SPINWARD REGION OF THE GALAXY. SINCE THIS EQUIPMENT IS EXTREMELY VALUABLE, AND WE HAVE FOUND NO SIGN OF ANY INTELLIGENT LIFE ON THIS MOON, WE HAVE DECIDED TO DISASSEMBLE THE TRANSMITTER AND BRING IT BACK TO THE SHIP.
---- END OF REPORT ----

These are incongruent.  The easiest way to fix this is to change the lander text (no need to change the Melnorme speech), but there is other evidence that suggests that the Kohr-Ah traveled spinward, not anti-spinward.  The Thraddash were the Kzer-Za's first slaves in this region, and the Burvixese were the Kohr-Ah's first kill on the visible star-map.  The star-map indicates the galactic spin to be from the Burvixese homeworld to the Thraddash sphere.  That means to fix the problem without changing speech, the lander text and the map need to be changed (reverse the  spin of the galaxy).  Of course, my personal suggestion is to alter the Melnorme text and set speechvol=0 as default. :)

No, they're both right. Antispinward and 'against the spin of the galaxy' are both the opposite direction as galactic spin; this is the direction from which the Kohr-Ah came.

But if you're travelling anti-spinward, you'll arrive from the spinward direction.

Oh, duh -- much like a north wind goes south.

Concerning the Kohr-Ah thing, there has been debate concerning that before... It may be that the Marauders are automated, or that the Kohr-Ah were genetically engineered to have less of a territorial instinct by the Dnyarri, as they were to be workers and soldiers, and thus needed to work together. And of course, there's always the theory that the crew member stat is only meant as a representation of the total strength of the ship....

Regarding Quasispace, it would be interesting if there could be random encounters with closeby races, such as the Umgah or Traddash in there. But it's not very likely, seeing as the portal is way outside of their sphere of influence, and none of the races really move outside their sphere, unless the whole fleet moves. Still, there should be a few Arilou in there.

Been awhile.

One thing that I think would be a nice touch, not really a 'shore-up' but nice nonetheless, would be two voices when you first reach the Chmmr world, instead of just the Mmrnhrmm talking. It'd be neat to hear a Chenjesu. Once the races combine, then you'd hear a blend of the voices (pretty much near like it is.)

One other inconsistiency that I've spotted is that the Slylandro Drone is immune to mind control, true, but somehow marines can still break in and kill the "soft targets" within? (I also think the Mmrnhrmm should be immune to mind control but not marines, but that's mainly a melee point.) :P

Well, if we're talking about the song and marines, well, the song should work on marines, transforming them into hapless crew members (though this total should be taken out of the crew taken from the Nemesis).

As far as Mmrnmhrm are concerned, I think the idea is that they are complicated enough that they are capable of emotion to some extent, and so can be lured. Either that, or it was an oversight because the only place it mattered was in SC2 supermelee.

Regarding the Orz marines, isn't it quite logical as it is? I mean, whilst the Slylandro don't have any crew members per se, they still lose grey points every time their hit. When an Orz marine enters a Slylandro probe, I always took it as if they simply landed on it and started ripping it apart, destroying vital systems. And when they die, it's because of automated defense systems,, or possibly something blowing up in their face.

With regards to the Syreen and mindcontrol, the Slylandro Probe is just an automated machine, with no sentience. It makes sense to me that it would be immune to the song. however, the Mrnhrrm are sentient beings, and although we know nothing of how thweir minds work, they clearly have minds that could be suspectible to compulsion.

EDIT: Darn Death_999, ya beat me to it.

As was also covered earlier, it's also possible that the Kohr-Ah ships have crew that are rendered sub-sentient by genetic tampering a la Talking Pets. The Syreen Song then of course can function on a subconscious level rather than an overtly conscious one.

The grayed out nature of the Slyandro probes does clearly indicate that it represents structural integrity and not actual crew. (As opposed to other ships that have green dots representing actual crew bodies.)

The crew/integrity is more of a (ironically) grey area with all the other ships since even a tiny tiny little dink will utterly obliterate a brand-new constructed ship with only one crew, which pushes for the case that the crew serves as damage control and when crew is depleted, nothing keeps the ship from succumbing to damage.

And yet it is utterly impossible to destroy a ship until absolutely all of its 'crew' is completely depleted, which pushes for the case of 'crew' representing integrity.

And yet ship crew cannot be Syreen-Song'ed more than the total amount of crew listed, which indicates that the green numbers DO represent total crew.

So as was discussed earlier, the designers likely made 'crew' a catchall for both 'crew bodies' as well as 'ship life'. Not without its faults, but hardly a big issue.

instead of the ur-quan kzer-za useing there own
crew to fly attack fighters they can keep there crew
and use robot zapp jac attack fighters
when you run out  they build more in the the ships hanger

Speaking about plot holes, after the separation of the green and black ur-quan, they started cruising around the galaxy in the opposite direction. Which means that they should meet for the doctrinal conflict to take place in approximately the opposite edge of the galaxy in respect to their original position. If that's so, why are the remnants of the sentient milieu located in our side of the galaxy???

the taalo who where part of the sentient milieu where
from valpecuale 2c there home world

A logical explination could be that the members of the sentient milieu were spread all over the galaxy, perhaps even in other galaxys. The Ur-Quan started out on the other side of the galaxy. The Taalo and the precursors started out on our side. Who knows about the others.

And just because they set off in opposite directions doesn't mean that they went the same speed.  It stands to reason that the Kohr-Ah moved much more swiftly than the Kzer-Za, if not simply because they didn't have to stick around for the "aftermath" of their victories.

Read the topic from the beginning. The idea is not to just turn this into an improved version of SC2. This is POST 1.0, meaning that when the developers have produced a stable, working, exact conversion of the 3DO version, what would we like to add? There will still be the 1.0 for those who wants no additional improvements. This are simply ideas for a version 1.01 if you will, that you don't have to download unless you want to.

Well, this is my first post here, but I've been reading all of these suggestions and it set my mind to thinking. What I came up with was this: Instead of putting all this into UGM 1.0 or later, why not put it all in a new version called "Ur-Quan Master Enhanced" (or Advanced)?

I have an interesting idea of how to implement the enhanced features, like new dialogue, without having to go through the pains of doing new voice-overs. The idea would be that in the first major engagement of the game, the fight with the Ilwrath, would cause the translation system on the Precursor ship to get fried somewhat, causing it to not function properly at times. (After all, we must assume that the peoples of the Galaxy don't all speak English). This would lead to a new element: getting new, vital information translated, sometimes quickly. What I would do is have a translator on board who you could use to translate the important stuff (even if it is translated long after getting it) and having the less important stuff beamed back to the Starbase for translation there.

Ok, I know that sounds Enterprisish, but it's an idea.

Anyway, all of these ideas make the game more grand than the version we're used to. And since todays games can be larger than those of 1992, it can be done. I'm sure there was lots more that had to be left out in 1992 due to space constraints. Now they can be put in and the Creator's visions can be fulfilled.

Thoughts? Flames?

It certainly is a viable idea, but what would it bring to the game? I mean, correct me if I've understood you wrong, but doesn't this mean that everytime you meet and converse with a race, you'd only understand part of what they were saying, and then you'd have to return to Starbase to get the rest fixed? In my mind, this only increases the amount of travel time.... You'd have to go back to base more often, so you'd have to mine more for fuel, so it'd take a lot longer to get anyhting done.

If you have radioactives before visiting the starbase, you offer them to the command without his tellilng you what sort of supplies he needs.

Ooh, that smells a little more like a bug than a plot hole.  As such, I have created Bugzilla Bug #366 (http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=366) to address this.  If it meets with the approval of the Powers That Be^TM, it will be corrected in v0.3

Do you refer to Hayes taking your radio actives before telling you what he needs. No bug at all. Pc version did it. Just a way of zipping past the boring stuff at the beginning if you wanted.

yeah, and it takes a strange player to go and mine up on mercury before heading to good old earth. I have a related question - what if you get the radioactives from that one moon of jupiter?

Yes, and as we all know, the PC version was 100% bug-free.  Lander cheat, anyone?  :P

What leaves me the most dumbfounded about this response is that my purpose in starting this particular thread was to try and get people to think (and talk) about what may be "wrong" with the game in its current form plot-wise, and what could be done to correct it, in order to make the gameplay experience as good as it could possibly be.  The bulk of the repsonses have ignored these questions, (but have been mildly interesting in their own right) but the attitude of "I love this game, warts and all" is completely inappropriate here, considering the aforementioned topic.

Nostalgia is a powerful force, true, but it is not as though I'm proposing a complete story re-write or anything.  The game, and its plot, as they sit now, are very well done (better than any of their contemporaries, and better than most that have come since, IMO) but if you really sit back and roll the whole story around in your head, some parts of it just don't quite "fit" as well as the rest.  They fit well enough, true, but I believe that if you were to "tweak" them just a bit, the game would be even more satisfying to play than it already is.  I've already mentioned the parts that I could think of, and possible solutions, and now I ask (again), what can you come up with?

Has anyone mentioned the distinct lack of alien colonies? I mean, everyone's flying about in dozens of starships all over their spheres of influence, but practically nobody has any presence on any planet (or moon) except their homeworld. Every single exception to this rule is due to some really nifty object being down on the surface that they apparently can't move.

I suggest adding more inhabited planets (or at least minimal colonies) for each race with a sphere of influence to remedy this.

Second, nobody seems to object to us running off with every single shred of minerals we can find near the surface. Surely the races with dozens of ships around would have some sort of mining operation in place and would object to an outsider stealing "their" minerals - if there are any left for us to take, that is.

i think making it so aliens charge you or bar you from mining on their planets is a bit too drastic a change to SC2. However, on the solar systems with "green" or habitable orbit systems, there may be a colony or such. Besides, you aren't mining up every available resource, you're nabbing the large surface concentrations. agreed, that's pretty silly. You could always add sorta "blown up andro city" style energy signatures that are mines  and have a lander message "captain, we've run into some <x> miners..." when you run into one. That way, you'd preserve the game's amount of resources, but just add more realism by having some invisible resources covered/utilized by the aliens' mines.

The biggest plot hole that I always notice is how the spathi go from fearing the Ultimate Evil to fearing the Evil Ones.  And how the spaceship captains and Fwiffo always talk about Spathiwa, but when you get there they all live on the moon.  

Ultimate Evil vs. Evil Ones?  They fear both, hunam.  The Evil Ones are but one manifestation of the Ultimate Evil's power.

And the fact that they are all on the moon is explained in a hilariously implausible manner by the Spathi High Council.  Put simply, fear drove the Spathi civilization to amazing heights.  Go play the game some more, it will all make sense soon.

dude, the spathi are meant to be frustratingly, confusing pansies. and they succeed perfectly. so don' complain bout no spathi or fwiffo'll knock ya one.
what about adding inhabited zones on colonies? or when you try and go to the planet you get one of those "lander reports" talking about how due to your ally status the <x> allow you to land and mine.

I mean, I don't think alien colonies should play such a major role, but as a minor little side note they'd be cool.

Huge chmmr sphere is moronic. Because they have the plot considers that they are the most powerful race (though we all know the cruiser rapes those things in battle) doesn't mean their sphere should be large. Size of Sphere doesn't equivocate ( != ) to number of ships or size of fleet. Its merely the extent of their operational range. I would think that it'd take a while before the chmmr themselves would be able to increase their sphere. If any such thing would be implemented (please dont) it'd have to be designed based upon an expansion over time in which the sphere increases at incredibly small increments. And besides you'd be creating another plot whole by making a gigantic sphere for chmmr cause what would be the point of sacrificing your beautiful "service ship" when they'd already be in control of the entire universe. I believe if i remember correctly the chmmr had been developing their race and honing their racial abilities combining the might of the Mhrnmrnrrnrkmrnr (i'm so disgraceful) and Chenjesu  NOT building an armada of ships large enough to whipe out a whole quadrant. Though they do have pretty nifty plans...

The CRUISER?!

wow. You must have spent a LOT of time experimenting with SuperMelee to get that figured out, dude...

Besides. They shouldn't have anything more than 5% larger than the original Chenjesu sphere. Probably about a little less than the Ilwrath sphere, and far more into the "quadrant" <centered around Procyon>. And while they DO have only one planet and it is after a long hibernation, their planet is a ball of solid resources. Besides, they already have a ton of industrial capacity because they have BOTH the existing chenjesu and mrnmrhrm pop on the surface of Procyon. So, while they shouldn't ZAP pop up to about Ilwrath size of influence, I think they should start with a sphere like the Pkunk and then expand constantly over about six months to Ilwrath size. And honestly, after the "Two Week" sleep period where you get Da Bomb strapped to your beautiful, sexy, sleek, gorgeous battlecruiser <that was the most tragic part of the game, losing that ship> you won't wait around six months. I think the effect intended would just be showing the slow yet inexorable advance of the fleets of the Chmmr beginning to battle the Quan as you do the Covert Sabotage mission that cripples the Quan fleets.

Two more issues:

-Why didn't the Dnyarri know about the Slylandro during the Sentient Mileu dynasty?  The Dnyarri tend to kill "useless races."  They would have compelled the Ur-Quan to tell them where all the sentient beings were that the UQ knew of.  The Dnyarri's reach certainly extended into this part of the galaxy (they made the Ur-Quan attack the Taalo homeworld).  I can't think of a viable answer to this one.

-Why didn't the Ur-Quan remember the Slylandro and either Slave-Shield them or Kill them?  This one has more of an explanation; after years of slavery, the Ur-Quan didn't pass down any memories or records of the Slylandro.

Maybe the few Ur-Quan who met the Slylandro saw what was happening to their brethren and made sure that the secret of existence of the Slylandro died with them.

I'm not sure that killing the Slylandro would be easy.  I mean, they live in a gas giant.  They could hide pretty far down in it.  Also, the weapons would have to directly hit a Slylandro to kill it because there's nothing for projectiles to detonate upon.    You also have to consider that perhaps the particular gaseous mix of the planet would destroy any projectiles that penetrate too far.  As for the Kzer-Za not slave shielding them, what would be the point?  Since they can't leave the planet anyway, the Kzer-Za would probably consider slave shielding them to be a waste of resources.

The slylandro have indicated that they have a height range, and if they go too low then bad bad things happen.



Detonation does not require collision. Ever heard of depth charges? They are bombs launched from ships that fall through the water and explode after a given period of time. If they are near enough to a submarine, they will damage it, perhaps enough to destroy it. No collisions (unless you consider the pressure wave to be a bunch of water molecule collisions).



"Any" projectile?
A) there is no chemical that destroys everything (though you can come up with combinations that come pretty close, they also react with each other -- e.g. strong acid, strong base)
B) you can always make the projectile fatter and fatter, thus giving the atmosphere  matter to eat away while leaving matter in the middle undisturbed. Take a couple 10 Km asteroids and dump them -- instant hydrogen bomb strength detonation along a column!
C) You can also put things inside the asteroid, in nested pressure vessels. Things such as hydrogen bombs or poisons.



And slave-shielding Vela wasn't a waste of resources?

No. Why should they destroy the precursder factory?

Ask them. They did it.

EDIT: oops, no they didn't. My bad.

I know you will be mad again BUT....

How you got another precurder ship in SC3 if the factory was destroyed?!?!? Hmmmmmmm? Answer that!!!

Deep_Jiffa:  Wow.  Argumentative, uninformed AND illiterate.  That, my friend, is what we call a hat trick!  Colour me impressed; without people like you we might actually have to put up with intelligent discourse around here!  That would be a crying shame.  If someone isn't calling a person they disagree with an "asshat", it's just not a good day, am I right?

I know it might tax your meager skills to do so, but go read some of the older posts on this forum to see what most of the contributors to this forum think of SC3.  We've discussed it to death already, and I don't think it's a topic worth resurrecting simply because you could not be bothered to read about what has come before you.

Too bad p&f did not expend the game about the arilou\orz relations I know the game is focused about interferring with the docotirnal war and destroying the Sa-Matra but it could be more then nice if they just worked on the other *times* too, like entering the taalo\orz realm, maybe Paul and Fred will create a new Star Control someday

ALL RIGHT A PETITION

*ALL, WRITE A PETITION

Slyandro aren't worth slave-shielding they are pracaticly, trapped on a gas giant no physical means to develop any sort of technology and it's likely the Un-Quan have forgotten their existance after millelia of enslavement and traveling throught space pratacing their doctrines

pie, P&F already know that lots of people want to play a new SC game:
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~starcontrol/petition/

Not entirely relevant to this thread, but I'd like to bring to your attention the thread ATTN Fred: Groombridge dialog.

It involves the director's cut(!!!!) of SC2, and everybody is more than welcome to reply to it, after reading meep-eeps very enlightening comments on the subject.

This involves more than just fixing ideas, it is about putting in all the ideas meant to be there in the first place. Any contributions you guys can make will be great

It would be great if it's added an optional subplot of getting Aqua Helix without destruction of Thraddash by Illwarth.

In my opinion, it was the biggest downer in SC2 plot.
I mean, you finnaly make peace with these guys.
They almost worship you as good.

And then, you must become biggest bastard, by sending Illwarth on them and taking thier beloved Aqua Helix.


P.S.
It could be something related to help fighting Illwarth.
You help them in some way, they get not destroyed, and you get the Helix because some ancient Thardash text prediced this happening.

Perhaps you can tell the Ilwrath to go steal the Aqua Helix for you, then you counter-steal it from them. The Thraddash never find out that you did it.

It's very easy to keep an alliance with the Thraddash. Just follow these simple steps:

1) Befriend the Thraddash.
2) Go get the Aqua Helix.
3) Never ever encounter another Thraddash ship again.
4) Don't send the Ilwrath to kill them.

As long as you don't encounter another Thraddash ship, they won't break thier alliance with you and you're still able to build thier ships. I know it's not really a bug per se, but it is a bit odd. I suppose this could be popped into the list of story inconsistancies.

EDIT: Neither the Ilwrath nor the Thraddash know who really made the order for their (near?) eradication. The Ilwrath think Dogar and Kazon made the order, and the Thraddash likely won't care since they'd be too busy defending thier space.

But you can't have them as your ALLIES then... Just not your sworn enemy.

We're talking about conventional weapons here, not depth charges or "fat" bombs.  I mean, at least TRY to apply your brain here for a second.  Do you really think the Ur-Quan carry around such weapons?  Do you think they would develop such weapons just to destroy a race that can't ever leave its home planet anyway?  Yes, it would be a huge waste of resources.
No, it wasn't.  The humans on Vela would be capable of leaving if someone were to give them a ride.  This is something that the Slylandro CANNOT do under any circumstances.

As far as the new Precursor ship goes, one *is* shown during the ending sequence of the 3DO version of SC2, but the game deliberately refuses to tell us where it came from.  TFB needs to hurry up with a new SC game to explain this to us.  ;D

We are? Oh, why? A fat bomb is really quite simple. All you need is a regular old fission nuke (which should be fairly standard technology among the technologically advanced Ur-Quan), surround it with a few thousand tons of deuterium and tritium, implant this into an asteroid, and nudge into gas giant. Note that hydrogen, including deuterium and tritium are plentiful in the neighborhood of a gas giant, and so are lots of large asteroids. The material cost is thus basically provided-for. It will just take some time.

So, either branch of Ur-Quan can provide the death threat. The Kzer-Za would probably throw up a slave shield just to be on the safe side; the Kohr-Ah would carry it out.

As for 'not ever being able to leave': I don't see it as that iron-clad. They may not have the ability to build their own spacefaring vessels, but a fairly concerted effort could, I am sure, produce pressure vessels strong enough for them. Then they would be all over the place! OMG! Freedom! Can't have that.



...
:P
I'll let that one fall on its own demerits.

I am personally fond of the notion that slave shields don't "scale" up to the size of a gas giant for whatever reason.  This means that it would be impossible to imprison them, pointless to enslave them (since they were not spacefaring), and meaningless to destroy them (since they have zero prospects of becoming spacefaring, as and as such pose no threat) so they simply ignored them.

The slave shield at Vela was different in this regard because 1) it was a small, rocky world (if you assume that my original assertion is true) and 2) there was hyperspace activity detected in the system, meaning the inhabitants were technologically advanced enough to travel through space.

Well, I am not that hardcore on SC2 yet, I am actually finally getting to play it all the way through thanks to this conversion project.

Most of you hardcore people probably dont ever have reason to talk to the starbase commander about galactic history any more, being so into the game and all, which is why someone hasent noticed a plothole the commander mentions.  While telling you about the Precursors, the commander mentions some of the artifacts they have found, inculding "a starbase in alpha centuri".

Plot Hole: What starbase at alpha centuri?  As far as i could see, there wasnt one there.

Now, there could be a couple ways of fixing this.
1) Just leave it alone and figure nobody really cares.  Not the exciting option but clearly the least work.
2) Actually implement a starbase at alpha centuri.  I think, if this were to be done, that it would require a new graphic, because I doubt the precursor's would look like the only existing starbase graphic (the earth one).  As far as whats at the starbase, it could be as simple as a little text message saying "hey, yeah its a precursor starbase..... and its really empty, and really useless.  The Xeno guys will love it though".  Allthough the text should be easy to put in, I dont know how hard doing some sort of incounter in space of that nature would be (seeing as incounters with just text happen on surfaces traditionally).
3) Implement some other explanation.  The commander could say something about how the humans towed it somewhere for further study, or declared it scrap and decided to take it apart, both to learn anything they could and for the free recources it represented.  For that matter, most players encounter the trademasters at alpha centari first, so having the trader (but only that one trader) say something in passing about how "why, at this very star there used to be an amazing Precursor space station, before its orbit decayed and it fell into the sun" would work.  But, this option would take more work because it would require voice acting or some other form of plot tweak.

Its not like this is a big deal or anything, but it strikes me as an atmosphere thing that adds to the game in a small way.  It seems to me the Precursors would have left more than a few shiney convienent devices, and if enountered early would give a new player the impression that space is littered with precursor junk, making the acceptance of some of the other highly convient objects a bit easyer to swallow.

Then again, for a game this good my suspension of disbelief factor is so high I dont really mind that space is littered with a collection of artifacts which happen to perfectly conincide with what I need.


I sure hope that this wasnt covered elsewhere in the game, or that there wasnt actually a starbase there and I missed it, cause then I'd look stupid, which is never good for your first post.    :)

well, yeah... I guess thats just doing my first option then.

But, it dosent seem that the Ur-Quan had anything against Precursor junk, so I dont think that'd be the _best_ explanation.

The thread asked for plot holes, and when the commander goes to the trouble of telling me about a starbase at Alpha Centuri I did kind of expect one to be there.  Furthermore, just going with my option 2 dosent sound like it would be that much work and it would add to the feel of the game, in a small way.  Just a sugestion.

Maybe they planned a starbase there and ran out of time implementing it?

TFB meant to to do a lot of things but had a deadline from accolade...

another plot hole, though, is that people actually found the platform, meaning they were in Alpha Cantauri before, but never met the Melnrome, that always hover around the area.

Thats good thinking about the Melnrome, except that when you first meet them the guy says something to the effect of "we have just arived in your reagon of space and are looking forward to establishing profitable trading relations", so thats takes care of it.

Here's something about the story that I've always wondered about: What the heck is at the Trianguli star system? Or is it the Arae star system? While I can on some level appreciate a QS portal that exits to nowhere significant, I keep wondering if I'm missing something.

see
http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1059054995

Pardon my deteriorating memory, but...

IIRC, in the original PC version, even after the Thraddash find out you are a thief, you can still continue to build their ships. Kinda like the Umgah gives you some of their ships for *fun*. From what I'm reading here, UQM has them actually break off the alliance and stop sending you ships?

-=PakoPako=-

You mean the "Mark II"? (also in the PC ver.)

Your character said it best.. that's another story altogether..
For another game of course  ::)

-=PakoPako=-

Something I would like to see in the game would be an explanation why the Ur-Quan did not find the Taalo Device before me.

They were exploreres, had thousands of scout ships, fought the Dnyarri for a long time wearing stuff like in Sado-Maso-Hell so that they *REALLY* had any incentive to search for a solution.

And after thousands of years some human captain buys info from a Melnorme Trader that the Taalo were manufacturing a device to protect others from the psychic Dnyarrri powers and it might still exist on their homeworld, takes a walk on it´s surface and voila! it is still there...

The ur-quan arrives, and they began to enslave races and beating the alliance. Then after it they keep searching for other races to en-slave them and to organize their battle thralls. The time passes and the koar-ah arrives! So what is more important, to stop the koar-ah from slaying this region or finding new devices?

Also, the Ur-Quan were all being compelled by the Dnyarri when they "killed" the Taalo.  They wouldn't have known about the device.  It's assumed that the heart of the Sentient Milleu (and thus, the Dnyarri Empire) wasn't in this area of the galaxy, and that the Ur-Quan's first doctrinal war occured on the opposite side of the galaxy.  The Dnyarri had been sub-sentient for so long, they didn't need to look for relics to protect themselves.

One semi-major thing that needs to be fixed is the Vela inconsistency. The manual says Vela 2 is Unzervalt, yet the Ur-quans slave shield Vela 1. I don't think that was intentional. How about moving the slaveshield to Vela 2?

I meant the time between Kzer-Za (the person, not the race) finding out that pain frees the mind for a short time and the years it took until the Dynarri finally were defeated. This was not a fast war, as the stories in the game mention special devices like "excruciators" to be worn by the Ur-Quan which were specifically developed to give them constant agony and waves of pain to remain mentally free. In that time, knowing that the Taalo were immune to the Dynarris powers and constantly suffering from *MAJOR PAIN* why did they never come to the thought to find out why the Taalo were immune and how they could achieve that power as well (even if they did not know about the device one of the first things I would have made would be to thouroughly search the Taalo homeworld).

Remember, the Taalo homeworld was on the opposite side of the galaxy from the revolt.  Also consider that it's hard to think clearly when you're in extreme pain.  It's much easier to just lash out instinctually at the enemy (especially when the enemy is small, soft, and squishy and you are a giant carnivorous catepillar).

Was the revolt on the opposite side?
I understood that the Dynarri controlled ALL races of the Sentient Milieu, thus nearly all the Galaxy and that the Ur-Quan as their favourite slaves would then be found everywhere in the galaxy at the time of the revolt.
bye
Michael

Another problem with the Taalo device is that it is exactly one device, and its range is probably not that great. It has problems shielding a single ship's crew from one Dnyarri (who has spent most of his life translating "Submit or die!" into dozens of languages). The Excruciators were apparently easy to manufacture, while the Taalo device may have been too complicated to mass produce.

I get the impression that this Dnyarri is more powerful than the originals, due to the umgah enhancements beyond the repair.

You are right:


This is from the Star Conrtol 2 Resrouce file that came with the Star Control 3 package with SC1 and SC2 on one CD-ROM.
So a Dnyarri able to control alone an entire species and it´s entire fleet within the species sphere of influence is certainly stronger than the original "1 Dnyarri controls 1 planet".
bye
Michael