The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Shiver on June 22, 2003, 08:31:18 am



Title: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Shiver on June 22, 2003, 08:31:18 am
What brought this to my attention is the Androsynth Guardian. That ship is WAY better than 15 points and almost anyone who flys against it will agree. It needs to cost more. Conversely, the Mycon Podship may have incredible firepower but it is so easily avoided that it can't be worth the 21 points it's been given. I was thinking these two ships should have their values reversed, or at least altered. Since you can't buy them in the story mode, it won't affect a thing in that.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Death 999 on June 22, 2003, 11:29:58 pm
They're supposed to indicate a quality of the teams... so that you can identify two teams as balanced. As such, they should take into account non-quantifiable characteristics. Like ability to get away, ability to get close, ability to do damage rapidly, having a shot that isn't readily blockable... These are very important and not easily counted.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Shiver on June 23, 2003, 01:58:25 am
Alright, look at it this way: what would the single player be like if the Mycon were replaced by Androsynth? Would getting the Sun Device be any easier? Have you ever fought 8 Guardians in a row?


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Krogoth255 on June 23, 2003, 08:38:03 am
Well, I guess TOB left out the syths because, for future plot reasons, not enough time or disk space requirements set up by Accolode and their Blazers were probably were too diificult to kill with the ships you go to bulit in single game including your flagship even if you maxed out on technology


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Death 999 on June 23, 2003, 08:27:52 pm
We're not talking about "Why were the androsynth not in SC2?". We were talking about "why is the mycon point value so high and the 'synth point value so low?".


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Krogoth255 on June 23, 2003, 10:36:17 pm
I was just repileing to Shiver, but I think the Mycon point value is a bit too high the whole reason is the ship's potentally powerful plasma bolt and ablility to regenerate crew but unfonutrely, the Podship's lack of speed, mauvaraiblity, slow rate of fire, plasma shots are too slow to catch fastships and which can easly turn it's own fire against the ship make the Mycon just a an overrated version of the Earthing Cruiser really worth 13-15ish melee points
on the other hand, the Androsynth Guardian should on pair with the tier three of big, bad ships like Utwig, Un-Quan with the ablitly to turn a potent fastship rammer  ether to plume any hapless big ship or run any from danger and Guardian's acid bubbles are the quite effective defensive weapon and unprecidtible nature of wabbling around makes it difficult for fastship to approech the Guardian without getting hit by the bubbles the only real weakness of the Guardian is the lack of a long range attack making it somewhat vunriaible to Pillboxers although, the captain can ram the the enemy ship into pieces or try to before biting the cosmic dust
IHMO the Guardian's melee point vaule should be 21-23ish


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Captain Smith on June 24, 2003, 03:59:08 am
It depends on how you pilot the ships I guess.  I do much better with the Mycon usually than the Androsynth.  I can do major damage with both, and have surprised myself especially with the Mycon on the ships I can take out.

The major catch with the Androsynth is it's very vulnerable against some ships in the comet form and is a literal sitting duck in the regular form.

We could make arguments like this until the cows come home about every ship in the whole game.  I even almost considered posting a message like this regarding the ZoqFot.  After all, I can take down the Chmmr, Kohr-Ah, Ur-Quan (if I'm patient), Utwig, Yehat (sometimes), and Mycon (the top 7) if I'm on skills-wise.  So shouldn't it be ranked higher?  

I could say the same thing with the Supox.  In fact, I played the Supox against 2 groups of each of the ships I listed and wiped the board (meaning all ships in my set survived) with my Supox ship at least 6 times in my recent memory.  So shouldn't it be ranked higher?

Just some thoughts.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Shiver on June 24, 2003, 05:48:10 am
That's lovely, but the computer is a well known pushover. By your (Smith's) terms, the Thraddash Torch should be worth around 50 points and Spathi Eluders in the single player should cost at least 60,000 RU's. The point values are intended for players of comparable skill.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Captain Smith on June 24, 2003, 09:45:13 am
You kind of see my point.  You can't base point values based on the skill or lack of skill you might have in playing and going against certain ships, because it's not a solid argument that could be made.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Death 999 on June 24, 2003, 08:24:49 pm
No, point values should be valid for players of equal skill. AI vs AI is one fair test; two roughly balanced players against each other, swapping sides, would be a better metric.

Just because skill makes a big difference doesn't mean that you can't define point values meaningfully. Skill is SUPPOSED to make the difference; point values are just there to make the game fair.

Do you propose abandoning point values altogether? If not, what metric do you propose for them?


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Culture20 on June 24, 2003, 11:31:25 pm
I'm curious what calculus P&F used to assign the starbuck prices to the ships in SC1.  If it was a simple mathematical formula based on ship stats, then questions of skill are moot.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: Death 999 on June 25, 2003, 03:33:07 am
If they did, we should probably abandon that method anyway.


Title: Re: Ship point values are in need of adjustment.
Post by: guesst on June 25, 2003, 05:34:01 am
Okay, chiming in with my 2 bits here, but I'd wager that FF & PR3 just kinda guessed on the whole point thing.

And while in a skilled pilot's hands a androsynth ship is vastly powerful, in an unskilled pilot's hands it's unweildy and difficult to use. You end up missing more than hitting and wiping out your battery doing little to no damage.

I say keep the points as they are.