First, I just want to say that I'm a little upset that I missed out on this topic for so long.

Next, to ZeroArmy, you are without a doubt the most prolific writer on this forum.  That's not a criticism, just an observation, because I see you every where and you are all over this forum.

I knew someone would bring this up sooner or later. Not too long ago I realized I had over 50 posts and so I looked around and I saw that I had more then anyone else. After which, I decided to try and cut back, but there are some topics which I can't help but reply to. *Sigh* I've never ever had the most posts in a forum before, but I guess that SC is a more important topic, to me, then I thought it was.  :-/

What is killing me is that earlier you made a few points that I was going to argue against, like the Chmmr being the "rocks awakened" and the "Utwig bomb" destroyed the Sa-Matra, not the Ultron, but others beat me to it.

Well I said the Taalo were the rocks awakened, but it was really the Chmmr (it says shinny rocks are awaked my an explosion of light) and yeah I made a mistake with a Ultron (again sorry if I confused anyone). When I used to make replies in forums, which was a long time ago, I never replied so much so I guess I'm not used to it. Anyway, I know how you feel. I'm normally only on at night, since I work during the day, and so I find a lot of topics replied to with the things I wanted to say.

Anyway, I totally agree with you about keeping SCIII out of this topic field.  There are other topics that are specifically intended for discussions of that game.

Thank you for that (people were getting on my nerves).

While I'm on the topic of races from the Sentient Milieu.  We are told that the Yuli and Drall (and Taalo) were destroyed by the mind controlled Ur-Quan and that the Foz were slave shielded by the Kzer-Za, which means they could still exist, somewhere.  The Kohr-Ah cleansed the Yuptar, but the Mael-Num escaped after they used THE WORDS and the Kzer-Za showed up in time and provided a distraction for them.
Now, my point is ... is there any one out there that DOES NOT believe that the Melnorme ARE the old Mael-num race that escaped?!  Am I wrong, but were the Mael-num described to have one large eye? ... not that that's unique given the Spathi and VUX.
  Ah, I should take my own advice and discuss this somewhere else (that is if it doesn't already exist as a topic).

Yeah I think everyone thinks that the Mael-Num and the Melnorme are one in the same. Fred and Paul spent the entire game hinting that they were and, personally, I doubt they'd do all that as a sick joke to trick you. But then who knows.  

<rant>
All these explanations I have read seemed too contrived OR based too much on SCIII, which like I have said earlier, I am completely ignoring in this topic.
  Don't get me wrong, your ideas are interesting, but a lot have serious flaws in them.  You should admit when you are making a lot of speculation (like ZeroArmy admitting "this one is a little out there").
  All this arguing back and forth about what the Orz real intent seems to me like arguing over what God likes in his tea, that is if he even drinks tea, or even drinks, or even exists at all.  You can not prove it to me one way or the other through any thing other that pure speculation.  And that's no proof at all.

I completely agree. A few theories are one thing, but when you find someone saying you're wrong because their theory is better, you find yourself being forced to play the game, gather proof, and report back. It's become very time consuming.

I think I completely understand why ZeroArmy was getting so frustrated during the course of this topic, because reading through a lot of this, I felt the same way.  Not only because this topic should be free of SCIII discussion (I took it that this post was asked in terms of SC2 exclusively), but also because all this arguing over pure speculation is such nonsense.
  Doctuh_Jay, though your points are interesting, they have no place in this topic.  I think it would be best if you formed your own topic that specifically mentions that you'd like to discuss the overall plot of SC2 and SCIII combined, especially concerning the Orz and the Eternal1s.  Discussion of the Eternal1s is TOTALLY off topic here.
 The meanings of the Orz and Arilou in this discussion is concerning SC2, as if SCIII never existed ... so you must take all those ideas from SCIII and temporarily put them on hold.  You were backing up your arguments with plot from a story ZeroArmy and mage were ignoring for this topic.  And yet even after it was explained, you continued to bring it up.  Start a new topic and leave a message here that you invite people to discuss it there, if they are interested.

Well it wasn't really that they were talking about SCIII in general (although I do have issues with it so I tend to get annoyed when people act as if it's the holy grail). It was simply that it should be clear to anyone that the guy, who started this thread, wanted to talk about what TFB had in mind, yet the same couple of people kept explaining what SCIII said. Then they were told that we didn't want to know what SCIII said (like you explained above) and they kept it up. One of them even went so far as to say the Taalo weren't alive because of what was said in SCIII. Yet, just a few posts before, someone cut and pasted part of a chat log where Paul and Fred said they were really alive. After a few posts like that you feel like you want to rip your head off.  

I enjoyed SCIII, probably more than most, in spite of its failings in linear plot development due to poor coding, but I explained this in a seperate topic labeled "Star Control 3".  I understand that it was not made by the original creators and in this they were not completely happy with the end product.
</rant>

Since you brought up SCIII I want to clear something up for everyone who reads through this thread....I don't completely hate SCIII. The idea of the Eternal One's was nice, but they didn't back it up well enough and the ships were fun to play with, but they had no place in SCIII (the Crux probably could've beaten either of the Ur-Quan). In short, I think it's a fair game, but it doesn't deserve the name Star Control and I simply get a little annoyed when people treat the details from it as if they really happened. But, anyway, like you said, if people want to talk about it they should start a thread of their own.

So many theories! Thank you everyone for posting! I started this thread with hope that more than three or so people would give input, but now there are so many replies... it's just so interesting to see everyone's take on this topic!

I hope this doesn't shift the overall topic, but I think this ties in to it:

Is it just me, or do the Orz seem rather juvenile and advanced in their conversations at the same time? I mean, they get VERY angry if you simply mention the Androsynth... their lingual "best fits" sometimes seem rather purposefully humorous ("*Jumping Peppers*!! It is *smiley* time!!")... hell, they even try to make jokes with you sometimes!

I sometimes get the impression (regarding the latter example) that the Orz are trying to "fit in" as a "typical" alien race that inhabits what they call *heavy space*. Obviously, they are not "typical" in most senses, as reflected by their complex language and how they only speak in present tense. But the Orz go out of their way to make an alliance with you, supply you with plenty of ship plans, and attempt to make casual jokes ("Yes, we do! Hello! I am only joke. It is funny enough! Don't forget to *enjoy the sauce*!!") with you to lighten the situation of their strangeness.

This is just my take on it... if you have any concurrences or differences, please post away!

I always used to think it was a side-effect of the hive-mind theory (like they weren't quite right). The Mycon are good example of this. But, anyway, I like your idea better...They could be like the Supox (in a small way) where they are trying to act as normal as possible so that they don't draw attention to themselves.

And I must ask two more questions, one of which I asked earlier with no answer, but it is okay if you're too focused on the primary issue to answer them. Here they are:

1) If the Orz are projections of a different-dimensioned being/entity/species, why did they/it choose the physical form of fish-like creatures that breathe from a liquid ethanol solution?

2) On a lighter and perhaprs sillier note, what do you think the meaning of *enjoy the sauce* is?

Thank you so much everyone for contributing!

You always have the most interesting questions.   Anyway, as to question 1 I have two possible theories. The first is that they breathe that in their home dimension and they had no choice but for their *fingers* to breate it in this one. And the second is that they have some sort of master plan and being able to breathe that will protect them from what they are going to do (this one is a little out there). After all, if they could decide what they would breate, in this dimension, why wouldn't it be something that was common? At least that way they could fit in/colonize more worlds without having to change the enviroment.

As for question 2. I have no idea, so I won't even try answering. Hopefully, someone will be able to though (I'd really like to know).

so we can't do the money cheat anymore?  are there any cheats to use.  I just *HATE* resource collection.  I wish I could just start colonies that would mine for me!!  AHHHH for the days of SC1

Fill your ship up with fuel tanks and then go to hyperspace and use the Caster to summon the Melnorme. Then ask them to fill up your fuel tanks to the max and they will pay you 1 credit to do so. After you're done, you can sell the fuel at your starbase.

A note on the Harika/Yorn ship, Zeroarmy.

This ship has one Harika and a bunch of Yorn.  Now the Harkia breed slowly, yes, but the Yorn?  They breed like Tribbles!

I mean, the guy eats about 5 of them every conversation!

So do I believe that the Yorn could increase their numbers every 20 seconds?  Yes, espescially if they have some sort of metabolic stimulant they use in battle.  Remember that we are talking about more Yorn, not more Harika.

As for the Doof, well, I basically think that the bums who made 3 screwed up, and didn't want to bother with different colored bars.  If it makes more sense to you, think of it as a grey bar.

Yes I get that it's the Yorn (remember I said; "Yes I know the Yorn breed quickly, but 20 seconds, come on!"). The thing is that they would not only have to be able to learn quickly, but they would have to grow at a rapid rate. Such is not possible for any animal known in SC or in real life. I would get if their crew would regenerate after a battle, (like the Mycon in the full game version of SCI) but 20 seconds just seems way too little time for someone like the Yorn. I don't know if it's SCIII's lack of explainning it or it really is stupid, but I just don't like the way it was done. And having them thrown into a furnace, or whatever they use, to get a speed burst doesn't seem like them either. The Druuge or insane and that's why they do it, but even the Harika are not mean enough to do that (SCIII said they respected the Yorn, but they eat them because they had to do so to live and the Yorn understood that without the Harika they would kill themselfs via overpopulation).

As for the Doog, it's not that simple, but oh well. I was just trying to make a point, that TFB would never do something like that.

On the Arilou:

FACT: The Arilou altered humanity's *smell*.
FACT: Humanity cannot detect these changes.
FACT: Humans made EXACT copies when creating the Androsynth.
INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION: The Androsynth DNA had to include the modifications, because our scientists wouldn't be ABLE to leave them out, even if they wanted to!

The Androsynth were just poking their heads into the Lovecraftian.  They paid the price, one way or another.

You know the more I think about the Arilou, the stranger things get. The Arilou said they knew the first Human, but they also said they made changes to us to protect us. Then they say that there are those out there who wish to harm us, yet they say that they will harm us if they didn't change our *smell* and if we "let ourselves be known" to them. To go on with this they say that the Androsynth let themselves be known and now there are only Orz. So, that, alone, lead me to believe that the Orz are those creatures the Arilou say they are trying to protect us from. Ah well. I've been thinking that it may have just been that the Androsynth showed themselves to the Orz, but I can't get over the fact that the Orz said we were different. So, I have to keep going back to my different DNA theory. I don't know much about making a clone, but I'm pretty sure they use a mix of blood samples and their eyes (microscopes) to make one. Now, if the Arilou did something that was so advanced maybe we couldn't copy it with just a blood sample. Again, this is advanced technology, so who knows what they could've done. Or maybe when we messed with their DNA, to make it so that they couldn't reproduce that part was taken out (again who knowns what the Arilou did with their advanced technology). *Sigh*It seems that every theory I come up with leads to another.  :-/ But then again, that's part of what made SCII great.  

[ADVANCED]

Is there any connection between the *Nggn* and the Orzine cry of anger *Nnnnggaaahhhhh!*?

I was thinking about that when I first played, but I think it's because they have interacted a lot in the past and so their language has similar roots.

Common sense dictates totally opposite.

If you make changes to information (whether it is a computer program, biological program aka. DNA or anything else), and after that make copy of that, the copy WILL include the changes made.

Nah. The androsyn did have arilou's *smell* modifications on them just as much as the humans, but their IDF experimentations somehow nullified the effect.

We're not talking about real life common sense, we're talking about game common sense. Real common sense would say that it's impossible that so many sentient life forms could exist, especially when they're so close to each other. But, here we are playing this game. Anyway, my point was that the Arilou, with their ADVANCED technology had done something to our DNA to change our *smell.* Now do we know what *smell* is or even how it interacts with our DNA? No of course not. So, when our scientists, with their newly invented technology used their small microscopes and other things, to look at our DNA and make a copy of it, they were not able to see what the Arilou did. Remember, back in the day, we didn't even know that germs existed because we didn't have the technology to prove it. Anyway, my point is that it's possible that it was an idea that TFB came up with, but without any game proof we'll never know for sure.

First of all, the Orz didn't want to wipe out humans, just kill you because they got worried. How else do you explain them attacking you at such a time? Also, I could be dead wrong, but perhaps TFB had basic plot idea involving the eternal1s and even if they didn't the game was decent. It's just looked at poorly because it had so much to live up to and was only good instead of great. I have a somewhat unique perspective in this because with the exception of some hazy memories of time long gone, I played SCIII first. If TFB makes another sequel it should not ignore SCIII. They should just make the next one as good as the second and leave the third one be because it was still worth playing and finishing, and I've played through it about as many times as I have with SCII (I've lost count).

You know I'm getting sick of this; "They had so much to live up with," crap. It would be one thing if TFB made the game and it didn't match up to SCII (they would never ruin the plot though). But, it's another thing when someone, who knows very little about SC, takes their ideas, that took them a total of 3 seconds to come up with, and burns down a great game. What you ask? Well there are many reasons, but to save time I'll only talk about the problems that bugged me the most. Firstly, ships...

Ok as we all know there are 2 new ships that will give you back your crew. First, is the Harika/Yorn. Whenever you use your secondary weapon they lose some crew and it slowly builds back it's crew. Now I can understand that the Yorn breed quickly, but there's no way that they can have sex, give birth, and raise their child to adulthood all in 20 seconds. Especially when you're supposed to be in the middle of a battle! Second, is the Doog. Now I played SCI for years, before I even heard of SCII, so I would play with every single ship and because of that I got to know them all very well. In the beginning I would have to make up my own little stories for them, because all I had was the game (I think someone copied the game for my brother). Then I bought the Sega game and read through the Manuel. One of the first things I read was why the Mycon were able to regenerate their crew and I was very happy with this explanation. Well, time passes and I buy SCIII, only to read the manful and see that the Doog can repair their hull! Well I played the game and realized it's not something like the Slylandro probe of SCII where they take damage points (that's why the crew bar is grey). Instead the crew bar is completely green and every time you repair your hull you get a crew member back (it's the stupidest thing ever done to SC). Anyway, I could go on about other ships, but let's move on to the plot, since that's what this topic is about...

As I've said the Arilou, Taalo, Human, and Syreen plots are written by 5 year Olds. The others are bad too, but I'm going to complain about the flagship today. According to SCII the Captain went back to Vela II and built another flagship. Come on, that's just like those guys at the Timewarp forums. There was a whole thread about how you should go back to Vela and build another. What I found funny was that nobody tried to go back to Vela in the game. According to the story, that you read when you first start the game, you are supposed to return to Earth and send a ship for them. So, that the first thing I tried to do in my very first game. I found it a bit well hidden, (probably done on purpose) but halfway through I was able to find it. Well when I got to my beloved home I found an Ur-Quan Dreadnought guarding a slave-shielded world. When you talk to him he'll say that he saw my hyperspace single and was able to track it back to here. And now the baby has returned to the nest to die, or something like that. Well anyway, since when do the Ur-Quan allow their slaves to have Precursor technology to free themselves with? And don't give me that; "They couldn't find it" nonsense. The Ur-Quan used to find Precursor technology for a living and in SCIII they said that when they blew up something far below the Arctic surface and something else that was far below the ocean's floor, it was Precursor technology. So, finding all the technology should've been easy for them. Especially after the original factory was blown up by the colonists (remember they place nukes in the cave in case the hierarcy found them). Now instead of going on to rant about what they did to the Pkunk and Supox, let's move on to graphics...

Ok now this is going to short rant, but you can't honestly tell me you liked the way the game looked? The ships looked dark and grey, while the aliens looked like dried up fruit. For example: The Syreen looked like old women (they didn't even have hair) and Humans looked like Starship troopers (what the hell! is it that hard to stick with the uniform from SCI?). Lastly, we move on to SCIII as a whole...

*Sigh*I'm normally not one who rants about SCIII, but then again this is the first SC forums I've posted in, but anyway  what I can't understand is why people can't bring it up when it's clear the guy wants to know what would've happened if TFB made SCIII. You're basically asking to get flamed for your ideas. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again. SCIII wasn't made by TFB as such there are many mistakes and problems with it. It's fine if you like that, but you can't honestly tell me that the things, which I've brought up thus far, make sense with the rest of SC. Like the Arilou, Orz, (yes they were supposed to be creepy but they're not stupid enough to work for the Eternal One's when they can simply hide in other dimensions to escape from them) Taalo, Precursors, etc. Instead of listing things, I'm asking you to just sit down and think about it. Play SCII and then SCIII and see if it really makes sense to you.

Hey Zeroarmy,

that Pkunk vision is about when you finish the Process!

on the other hand, I'm not saying its impossible for them to be alive.  I'm just saying its not as likely as some think.

Oh yeah you're right. I just checked it again and it says it's an explosion of light. Too many things about SC too keep strait.  

When did they hint that the Arilou created the Syreen? Maybe they did, but if so, then they must have decided that because 99% of thier race was dead, there was no point in protecting the rest. Also, they DID lie about modifying us to protect us. That was their excuse but the real reason was for the DNA. And the reason they didn't evolve was because of Quasi-Space, and that's what I meant. Quasi-Space apparently is diffirent from True-Space enough so that they couldn't evolve properly.

Don't you get it? TFB didn't come up with all of that dialog from SCII just to throw us off. SCIII changed the entire plot and they used their little understanding of SCII to make up lame excuses (ie: "We lied").

And to those who think the Taalo were alive, they aren't. They were supposed to watch all the other races up to the point that the galaxy had reached its zenith in sentience, and then summon the Eternal1s to come and harvest them all. The taalo were killed, so the Orz took thier place. The *nggh* are likely the Orz, and they trap them to learn about them to find a way to defeat the Eternal1s but let them go, probably before they call the Eternal1s for help or something. It's not hard to piece together. The Orz join you so quick because they want to stop the Kohr-Ah from killing all the sentients and thus wasting the Eternal1s food.

Ok you people are driving me nuts. People in this board don't want to hear about what happened in SCIII. It's not real for post of them. They want to know what TFB (the creators of SCI and SCII) had in mind for their version of SCIII (what would've been if they made it). Now I doubt TFB will go around answering our questions, so it's up to us to use the little bit of information, that we have, to come up with theories. Like I said before, SCIII took alot of plots and ruined them...Mstr already posted few lines from a chat where Fred and Paul said the Taalo are alive. So, again, whatever SCIII said did not really happen. It's like a someone taking information, from a fanfic, and saying that all that information is what will really happened in SCIV (see how silly that sounds?).

Depends on how you define "this area of space".

Well I define it as the Circini cluster, a.k.a the Arilou's sphere of influnce. I know the Arilou may talk in riddles, but I don't think they're stupid enough to confuse area where we are and sector where we are (remember they have spent many thousands of years getting to know us).

There isn't any proof. That's why these all are just theories. I always thought that Arilou are actually far more creepy than Orz.

Oh hey I didn't mean that your idea had no proof, I meant that all of ours didn't. To be honest, I wanted to reply to your whole thread and I didn't have anything to respond to 2 with except, "I disagree with your theory, because I like mine better." So, I decided to add so random nonsense to fill to void.  

There are many places of *slow time*. Arilou and Orz may have met in another dimension already. "Jumping in front" may suggest that they have interfered with each other's plans. IMO either of them are up to no good.

Well I do think that *jumping in front* has to do with interfering with their plans, like you said now. But, the thing I disagreed with you about was that the Orz were the *Nggn* and *jumping in front* meant catching them. Also, I agree with you, to a point, that they're both up to something, but, personally,  I think the Arilou are generally nice, although they can be creepy (remember that thing where he said he touched your face while you were sleeping).

Exactly! It's from an irclog, and fwiffo is Paul + Fred, not a fictional character.

Oh! I read some chat logs that were on The Pages of Now and Forever, but I don't keep up with this stuff on everyday, so I often forget the less important facts (like what their chat names are). The thing was your post looked like a copy from a chat, but you didn't explain, so I was thinking that it might be what Fwiffo said in the game (silly me ). Anyway, thanks for posting that. I always assumed that the Taalo were alive, like the Orz said, (I believe most of what the game characters tell me as I doubt TFB came up with hours of dialog that was meant to trick us) until Erek posted his theory (it forced me to think a little, which, as we all know is hard work ).

No one has suggested this yet AFAIK, but I think *Nggn* means the Orz.

Can you explain why you think this? When you ask the Arilou why they are in this area of space (the Circini cluster) they say that they are here to catch *Nggn.* So that means that the *Nggn* live/pass through that area of space and the Orz half the sector from there.

Maybe they tried to help androsynth to the same place as Taalo, but Androsynth weren't "solid enough".

It's a good theory, but like most of our theories it has little proof to back it up.  :-/ Personally I think the Orz aren't as nice as the Arilou, like some believe, but whatever.

Same as catching the *Nggn*, but from Orz's point of view.

Again can you explain? While it is possible that *jumping in front* could mean to *jump in front* to catch them. I doubt the Orz would stand by and allow this (they're not really pushovers). Plus the Orz make it seem like this is a long term thing. So, do you think the Arilou were looking for *Nggn* in the Orz's home dimension? Again I find it hard to believe, but it's an original idea.

They looked up the information, when things started going wrong.

Yeah we got that, but I think the guy wanted to know what went wrong, which later caused them to look up information.

I'll add here, that I speak as if SC3 never existed:

In my opinion Taalo slided to another dimension.
"<Fwiffo> The Taalo LIVE!"

"<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)"

Wait, is that what Fwiffo, the Spathi said in SCII or what someone, who calls themself Fwiffo, said in a forum/chat? If that happened in SCII I don't remember reading it...The only two times, that I remember, which talks about the Taalo was when the Pkunk said rocks will come alive by an explosion and the Orz, of course.

Hm, i forgot that the Orz said we were *different*... I wonder what they would think of the syreen.  Even Talaana said it was "more than coincidence" that humans/syreen were so genetically compatible... I think they were some offshoot of a common ancenstor, but relocated by the Arilou during early , early BC history in order to allow 'pure' humans to develop w/out genetic pollution...sort of explains the arilou's lack of interest in them...

I agree that we are related with the Syreen, but somehow it seems like the Arilou didn't have anything to do with it. This maybe an anti-SCIII statement or could even be the fact that the Arilou are my favorite race. But, from SCII it seemed that the Arilou were very kind when they wanted to. In SCII their kindness revolved around Humans because they saw us as their children. So, if the Syreen were really the "children" of the Arilou I'm almost certain they would care for them as much as they do for us. To prove this think about a real parent. They may hide things/lie to you (the Arilou not wanting to tell us about those who seek to harm us) but in the end they're doing it because they care for their children and would never want to see harm come to them (remember when the Arilou said how touched he was when he put his hand on your face and you smiled while sleeping).

heh why am i bothering to speculate so much, they'll never make another star control (or at least one addressing these ideas)

Oh well, you could be right, speculation is probably pointless. But, this could be our last chance to do it. Once the UQM is out for awhile, less and less people will come here and the forum will be taken down. After which, if we still wish to keep talking about SC (which I won't be doing after there is no more UQM news) we'll have to go to one of the fan boards where you post something and a week later you'll get a reply. Then in a month you'll get another one and a good 3 months later you'll responded to every one of your 5 total replies.

About the Human thing I found this on The Pages of Now and Forever:

"Fuchsia also found this in the Dec 2000 EGM issue number 137 page 156...... Apparently Accolade was making Starcon, a starcontrol game for the playstation, it was to be true 3d with climb and roll controls and you could play as any 1 of 3 alliances each with their own ending, many of the missions were actually the same mission with different objectives depending on which side you were (aka alliance one capture alliance 2 destroy alliance 3 defend) although much of the work was completed starcon for the playstation was permanently put on hold.... why? Accolade wasn't sure it would sell the kind of numbers it wanted.. and even though it was most of the way done it was put on a back burner and forgotten...."

Notice the line that I glowed. Being as you can play as different alliances I doubt Humans would've been in it (I bet they took the humor out of it then) as they can't be in all 3 alliances. Also read this other quote (the part that glows explains something that you might find interesting):

"Overall Captain, I am glad they decided to cancel this game. It did not look very good and seemed that it would not have been "worthy" of the name "Star Control". Many complained of the "Wing Commander" combat, however I found it an intriguing idea, only if all the original ships were able to be flown. This was not going to be the case, probably because of character property rights, so I am happy they did not release the game."

If you go and read the Starcon page you will see some screenshots and other things (I saw something having to do with an Ur-Quan, but I passed it by, for the moment, to post this). It's worth reading, if you haven't already, and worth re-reading if you have (I noticed things that I missed the first 2 times I read it). Incase you don't know where The Pages of Now and Forever are or can't find the link to the Star ControlIV page here's the direct link: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/starcon/

EDIT: I checked on that Ur-Quan thing and it seems that the Hyperium alliance has the Ur-Quan in it. They have 6 eyes (3 big, 3 small) and arms that come out of their heads (check the races page). The only thing is that they're yellow, instead of black, green, or even brown (trust me it's yellow). The name of the thing is Vice Marshall Ra-Gar (Ra-Gar sounds like an Ur-Quan name) and below it are two links to hear them speak (sounds nothing like them, but it says "Hear Ur-Quan speak"). If that picture really is the Ur-Quan I bet they messed up more then just their skin color (ships, history, why they're members/founders of a whole new alliance). Oh well, like I said before, I guess it's good that the game was dropped years ago.

BTW: If anyone cares the Pkunk are in the races section too, so I think they were allowed to have to orginal races in, just not the ships. Either way, it's doubtfull we'll ever know for sure.

I believe the big question is: if TFB wouldn't let them use any of the races from the SC series, would there be humans in SC4?

Wow good point. When I first bought SCII I was annoyed to read that Humans are the ones who will win the war for the alliance (one reason I liked SCI was because Humans weren't the main race like in other games/tv shows). Then, after playing, I realized they had to do it so the dialog would be easier to understand and funnier (imagine if a Syreen said those things to a Chenjesu  ). So, if they weren't going to be in SCIV they'd have to re-work many ideas and make the race, you play, similar to Humans. However, it is most likely that they just took Humans and changed their ship/made them more advanced and didn't include their past according to SCI and SCII(you can't own rights to real life things). Either way it makes for a bad game, so I guess it's a good thing they scrapped the project.  :-/

I don't think it likely that the Taalo still exist.

look at every Orz converstation, EVER.  They never speak in any tense but present tense.  I think that *below* has no time, at least not as we know it.  Thus, the concept of past or future has no meaning, and the Orz speak only in present tense.  But in TrueSpace, time does exist, and so while to the Orz the Taalo are here, to us they WERE here.

One can expand this progression, and speculate that Quasispace has "more" time than TrueSpace.  The
Arilou talk about *time* rather than time, this indicates a different notion of time than we have.

Well see that's where I think you're wrong. The Pkunk say that they had a vision where large rocks will come to life by an explosion. The only explosion we know of is when we use the Ultron to destroy the Sa-Matra. So, by that statement, I think TFB was setting up something for SCIII and if it were not the fact that SCIII was made by someone else, they would've been in it (it would've been a good way to get the Ur-Quan to stop their madness). Also, be aware that the Androsynth were able to open a window, to the Orz, not too far from the Taalo's homeworld. So, if they did *slide* into another dimension perhaps there was a window near by that allowed them to do so and that window was also the reason why they were able to let the Orz in with their modifications of the Precursor device (maybe if they tried it somewhere else it wouldn't have worked). If not so be it, but I it seems to be a pretty big coincidence that the Orz say that the Taalo *slid* into another dimension at the same general area where they entered True-space.

Oh and just for the record, the Taalo had to have some way of traveling quickly through hyperspace, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to help the Milieu very much. So, personally I believe they were able to enter Quasi-Space and they allowed the Ur-Quan to know this. Which would be why their Warp Pod was able to be modified to enter Quasi-Space (it had some technology taught to them by the Taalo, but the Taalo disappeared before they were willing to completely share all the details with them). Now if this is true, then it's very possible that they had the ability to go into another dimension when the Ur-Quan attacked them.

I found some nice theories and explanations at http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/scsaga/races.htm .  What I've taken from it, is that there are multiple dimensions/planes of reality in the universe, and the Orz are from one w/ the same kind of creatures the Arilou want to keep the humans hidden from (though those creatures populate multiple dimensions/planes).  The Androsynth were basically just clones of humans, so it's not like they were "un-hidden", they just revealed themselves by experimenting with interdimensional fatigue, and that as a result of it, the Orz were able to take advantage of whatever they did, take their place, and stick them all in that dimension instead.  How exactly would Orz eat humans anyways?  They have a glass bowl on their head.   But, the Orz aren't even in the regular universe entirely... they said that the forms that you (the captain) see are like "fingers" or whatever...

That's a good link if you want information about SC in general, but it adds some theories from SCIII and there are some mistakes (it's not the author's fault, he just missed a few lines of dialog from SCII which semi-important issues). Anyway, the Orz say that they *smelled* True-space because of the Androsynth's experiments and by that you could be right. However, I think there's something more then meets the eye. Like the Orz said we're not in for the same fate as the Androsynth because we are "different" (different how? if we are the same as the Androsynth why did the landing party's leader get hurt and not disappear like the Androsynth?) and the Arilou saying they changed our DNA, so certain beings wouldn't be able to *smell* us and in doing so be able to harm us (sound like anyone we know?). Now the Orz said that what the Androsynth did allowed them to *smell* True-Space, but they don't say anything about *smelling* the Androsynth (then again they refuse to tell us what they did to them). What I think they mean is that the Androsynth allowed the Orz to find a way into our space other then the main route (remember the Orz say that the Arilou *jump in front* of them, so if that really means they're stopping them from entering this space, it means that there is a more common way to get here). Once here they *smelled* the Androsynth and wished to harm them because what the Arilou did to humans was added to our clones. After reading all this I see that, although most people believe this, it has little proof to back it up.  :-/

You think SC3 was bad, good thing SC4 or Starcon never made it out of the gate!

I mean, it looked cool, and got the community salivating again, at first, but can your really preserve TLF and gameplay of Starcontrol in 3d space?

SC3 wasn't a total waste of hard drive space, and melee was fun once i found out how to change from the horrible oblique perspective..

Ha, good point. SCIV wasn't even supposed to have any of the original races in it (probably because TFB wouldn't let them do it this time) and so it's doubtful that any of the information of SCI or SCII would've been included. By doing something like that you're basically trying to create a while new fan base.  :-/