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News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

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1  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: The Taalo Project on: August 23, 2007, 12:19:28 am
No, no, dear. You are flaming by insulting others needlessly when they haven't done the same to you. Examples:

"But I would just like to say that, in all honesty, the concept sounds incredibly silly."

So? Even if it is, why did you feel the need to announce your opinion when they're already well on their way with this project? Just to get a rise out of them? Did you really think that they'd just give up after saying that you think the idea is silly? "Incredibly silly" is still an insult, by the way.

What was your purpose in posting, if not to start an argument?

Given that you're new here, you're really shooting yourself in the foot and not giving off a good first impression.

"Absolute ridiculousness. You are a complete moron if you intend to flame somebody just because of an honest concern and unbiased opinion."

Given that you just barged in here to call their work "silly", I don't think he's particularly moronic for taking offense.

Your first post sounded nothing like concern to me. It sounded more like an elaborate, watered down way of saying "Give it up, you're not talented enough to do a project like this." Claiming to have an "unbiased opinion" is just laughable as well.

"And just because you're a fan of Japanese RPG's."

What does that have to do with anything? How do you know this? What do you mean by that, anyway? Are Japanese RPGs stereotypically known for making enemies sound female? I've never noticed such a thing.

"Had you done any basic study as to the validity of the word "IF", say, in elementary school, you would realise that it signifies a condition."

Here, you outright insult someone. Thanks for implying that EP never learned from elementary school if he takes something you say the wrong way, which he hasn't. You even said that you implied that Davey was stupid yourself in the previous sentence!

You've trapped Davey, basically. He did say that he wanted to flame you, so you are saying that he's a moron for doing so. I can't see why he'd really deserve to be labeled so when you, some newbie, came in here and called his efforts "silly" and told him that he should "[keep] the work to the professionals"

"If you hated proper articulation, why didn't you instead spend your internet time on 4chan, for instance, rather than decide to pin the blame on me and demand the moderators remove any sign of dissidence? "

Wow. This reeks of "Go to some other lowly and unintelligent place, plebian." Nobody likes to be talked down to.

If you don't care for what they're doing, why don't you do what a lot of other people on the forum are doing and ignore this thread? Why did you have to proclaim your personal distaste for their project?

It's not that you have an opinion, it's that you announce it in a rude, unnecessary way.
2  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: The Taalo Project on: July 20, 2007, 12:40:40 am
Just got a little worried that noone was even taking a look at it, sorry. >.>

Well, there is a "Views" number for each thread, you know. Wink

Trust me, it's getting noticed. It's just that people are either too shy, have nothing to add, or don't really care. That's just the way things go sometimes.

Just because no one responds to a topic does not mean that it's not getting looked at.
3  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: The Villainy of the Ur-Quan on: June 21, 2007, 01:02:31 am
To bring you on the same level as the Yehat Royalists, you'd have to think that the upper class was doing a really good job. You believe in them, and they're the good guys to you.

Then how would you feel, if someone caused doubt in them enough to start a rebellion?

That's what I ment, anyway. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm working on that, really I am.
4  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: The Villainy of the Ur-Quan on: June 20, 2007, 11:14:58 pm
Also, CeeVee:
From what you're saying, it seems that you think evil is completely relative? It's not so. An evil act is whatever makes someone (including you, though if you have to choose between your suffering and another person's suffering, you should choose yours, of course) suffer.

Even if it is only temporary suffering, and even if it's good for them in the long run?

An evil person is a person who commits evil acts (while having other alternatives) knowing that they're evil. However, an evil person is not evil in the same degree as its act, and is always redeemable, and also you can't tell if (s)he is actually evil or not only by seeing his/her actions, so you indeed shouldn't label persons as "evil", as you don't know if you're right.

What if this person feels that they have to do such acts, even if they know deep down that the act itself is wrong? Are they still an evil person? The Ur-Quan feel that they have to go to such extreme lengths to keep themselves safe, even though they may not be sure their way is correct, thus the whole conflict between the two sub-races in the first place.

Certainly I don't think that either of their ideas were the way to go (although I'd much prefer the Kzer-Za's), but to paint them as completely evil for their choices even though they're most likely too psychologically (and possibly biochemically) damaged to make a proper decision seems...unfair at best.

What I'm trying to get across is that things don't just simply fall into "good" or "evil". There's a lot of gray area in between. Also, I don't think anyone thinks of themselves as being evil, except for the Ilwrath. Even they're quite confused on that front. Wink

Morally, he didn't deserve death. What the manual says is just a way of saying "he messed with dangerous creatures, his eventual death was certain" - think Steve Irwin. As to The Captain apologizing - his lines don't seem to sincere, indeed, especially that one with "reverse psychology".

That's how I usually choose to interpret it, but I dunno. The word "deserves" just doesn't sit right with me.

The Captain went overboard when he found himself in the place of Dogar and Kazon. He is somewhat forgivable. As I've said, it's not how grave the evil deeds are, but how deep their effects on the evil doer are.

Why is he forgivable, but none the Hierarchy races are? This is the kind of question I'm asking towards those who see the Ur-Quan and battle thralls as nothing but pure evil. What is evil to those posters?

I'm not sure that I understand your last sentence.

There are also good parts to the Yehat Rebellion - unity between the Yehat and the Pkunk and the overthrowing of the tyrant Queen and her cronies from the High Perch. Sometimes you have to fight for your ideals.

Of course! It's just that the Royalists don't view it that way. The Captain is horrible to them because he just came barging in and filled the Rebels' heads with a bunch of nonsense and lead them into a war.

What would you guys think if the Yehat did the same thing to us? They would obviously be in the wrong, wouldn't they?

Err... the VUX started. We are merely replying in kind. We behave much more polite with Admiral ZEX... though it may be just for acquiring the Shofixti Maidens.

Heh! "The VUX started it!" That sounds like such a childish thing to say. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but I laughed nevertheless.

But seriously, is it really mature, advanced, or right of us to do the exact same thing towards them?
"You're ugly as all hell!"
"NO U!"

You HAVE to. It's, anyway, better than letting everybody die, isn't it?

Certainly! Cheesy I like living. Living is good. The Ur-Quan are still going to hate you forever for letting the Dnyarri loose on them, though.

I guess what I'm trying to do is get people to see the other side of the conflict, and to think about why certain acts are wrong beyond "We're the protagonists of the game", "Well, we're humans and humans are always right in sci-fi", and "It's evil because I've always been taught that it is". That, and maybe help them see that these things can be a little more complicated than they seem to be at first.

Yes, even in a computer game from the early 90s.

Edit: Also, I love this previous thread on the nature of evil in SC2. Love it forever. It goes into much more depth than I ever could.
5  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: The Villainy of the Ur-Quan on: June 20, 2007, 08:04:46 pm
Heh. I had a feeling that the topic would go this way. These type of things always do.

Is it really so easy to pin down what is "evil" and what is "good"? I, for one, don't think so. It's a matter of perspective most of the time.

For example, are humans to be considered evil for what we did to the Androsynth? From the sounds of it, we did some horrible things to them, forcing them to flee Earth. Are we not villains, then, in their eyes?

How about siccing the Ilwrath and Thraddash on one another? It may be somewhat unintentional ("Seek new prey!" doesn't tell them specifically who to go after, but it does tell them to go after someone else), but we still caused the near annihilation of two entire sentient species. Genocide is an evil act regardless of who it's towards, isn't it?

To the Yehat Royalists, we've done something completely atrocious: we've started a huge civil war for them after they've had 2000 years of peace.

The VUX...we're not exactly kind to them, either. Sure, they hate us merely for our appearance, and seek to destroy us because of it. We find out that, insult or no, they still would've hated us. And yet...from as far as I can tell, humans are disgusted by the sight of the VUX as well, even though we should have gotten over such silly appearance-based prejudice long ago. Isn't prejudice evil?

How do we even know that the Captain was sincere when apologizing to them? Maybe he just liked bugging the ever-loving hell out of them. What about ZEX, who even the manual says "got what he deserved" through his violent death at the hands of the Beauty? Did he really deserve death?

Even near the end of the game, you have to do something morally questionable, but arguably needed. You have to have the Dnyarri invade the minds of the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za. The Dnyarri, who enslaved the Ur-Quan and forced them to kill friends and strangers alike. The Ur-Quan had to go through pain the likes of which you or I will never experience just to get away from them, and here you are, making them relive the nightmare.

This is all not even mentioning what we've done to our own people over the course of history.

Some of this behaviour is necessary or unavoidable, of course. But just because it is necessary, does that cancel out its “evilness”? After all, I’m sure the other races think the same thing about the way they act towards others.

Whose morality is right? Is it acceptable to force your views onto others who don’t understand them?

I am, of course, thinking too much about this. SC2 is only a game. Yet…can’t the same kind of questions be put to use in the real world?

For me, it’s dangerous to label people as “evil”. And even though SC2 is just a game, I can’t hate any of the aliens for what they do. I understand where they’re coming from, even though I don’t think they went about it in the right way.

Paul Reiche III was interviewed once and had an interesting take on the Ur-Quan and such. Let me see if I can find it again… Ah! Here, buried in this PDF! :

The always jovial head of TFB, Paul Reiche III, kindly took time out from his Christmas holidays to talk. “We intended for the alien races to exemplify human personal and cultural foibles in a focused and exaggerated manner,” humbly understating that he did what we think all good science fiction should do. He also revealed a human side to the ominous Ur-Quan: “My own take on [them] came from my relationships with people who had experienced significant childhood abuse and how those traumas produced distinctly odd behaviors in adults. [Their] doctrines were the overtly crazy but internally reasonable responses to their treatment by the Dynarri, and the pain they had to endure to win their freedom from slavery.” Further running themes examined cultural intolerances (racial, religious, gay etc.), as seen in the Androsynth’s oppression by “normal” humans.
6  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: ATTN Starship Captains: What ship would you captain as part of its race? on: June 14, 2007, 09:47:54 pm
In part. Maybe you are reincarnated as an infant destined to be a starship captain, and have time to get used to your new body? Or maybe, because you used to be a Pkunk, you automatically attain that mastery?

Or possible you're doing a very Valaggar-y thing and overthinking a simple premise. Now that would be amusing.

Ergh, you think so? Embarrassed Sorry for the annoyance, I'm that. I have a tendency to put details into otherwise minor things.

But then again, if what you're saying is true, I don't see how this topic is any different from the one Valaggar himself posted a few months ago. I guess I just assumed that we were supposed to go more in-depth with this one. Undecided
7  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: ATTN Starship Captains: What ship would you captain as part of its race? on: June 14, 2007, 09:13:14 pm
Hmm? But that doesn't...

Are you so sure that simply being in a body and having all the neural connections there means that you know how to use them? After all, when people are born as a baby they don't automatically know how to talk, walk, or efficiently use fine motor functions, right? I imagine that if your consciousness/soul/whatever is just plunked into a body you wouldn't know how to use it right away.

I mean, geez, most of these aliens are so different physically that it would be a total shock to have such a body switch.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my answer would depend a lot on what the circumstances of this reincarnation or whatever are.

If I have no memory of my life as a human, I don't think it would really matter which I was. I, personally, won't gain any knowledge from the experience because I, as I am right now, cease to exist the moment that I become something else. I'm not "CeeVee" anymore, I'm now, for example, Reep-Yeep the Yehat and as far as Reep-Yeep knows, they've always been a Yehat.

So it would be kinda pointless to me if I get to pick which alien species I want to be if I'm, personally, never going to get the experience. Kinda depressing too.

However, that all changes if I remember who I was.

Am I making any sense here?
8  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: IRC chat with Toys for Bob on 2007-06-13 on: June 14, 2007, 06:26:14 pm
Many thanks to all those who made this possible! I don't think I've been so giddy to get a chance to talk to people I admire in years.

Quote from: From the chat (and spellchecked because I'm ashamed of making a typo)
23:51 <@fOSSiL> <CeeVee> Juffo-Wup always did sound like a food topping to me...

...And apparently I started a Mycon Holy War against me. Oops. Embarrassed
9  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: ATTN Starship Captains: What ship would you captain as part of its race? on: June 14, 2007, 06:18:16 pm
Question! Do you remember your past life?

For example: After your mysterious reincarnation, do you just kind of "wake up" inside a different body with your old memories intact and no idea how to control your new body?

I dunno about you guys, but that would entirely freak me out. Oh, I'd get over it eventually, but I don't think I'd be fit to captain anything for a while.

Quote from: Lukipela
I don't know why, but this thread seems to have turned a lot of people illiterate. Maybe it's just human nature though, we automatically assume that we will reincarnate as ourselves. I know I did. I suppose that would make for an interesting psychological experiment.

I automatically assumed that I'd be a member of another race, even before Valaggar made the post more clear on the whole thing. I wonder what that says about me? Undecided
10  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: Qualms about voice acting on: April 28, 2007, 06:10:44 am
Valaggar, did you make this topic (at least partially) in the hopes that I would finally answer you as to what I think of all the SC2 the voices? Heh. Maybe I'll post my opinion on each tomorrow when it isn't after midnight.

I tend to not take anything Valaggar says about the voice acting seriously. He hates ALL of them. He seems to miss the dramatic purposes of all these races. They aren't supposed to sound ultra-realistic, they are supposed to convey the mood you're supposed to be feeling.

Whoa now! Just because you don't agree with what he says, doesn't mean that his opinion is invalid. Besides, I'm the one who hates almost all of the voices, not him. He actually likes most of them. If you stone anyone, it should be me. Tongue

I'm not sure that I agree with your last sentence. If it was true, then (for example) that means that I'm supposed to feel outraged and disgusted when talking to the Utwig, completely ashamed for the Spathi, Pkunk, and Shofixti, and feel unwanted when I meet the Slylandro.

I think you'll agree with me that that's probably not the way that it's supposed to be.

-No voice would not be best. When I was listening to their idea of the Path of Now and Forever, the voice is what grabbed me in. WIthout that enunciation that the actor maintains, most people are going to be lost. As entertaining as staring at a cartoon bonepit must be, you need to always look at it although you were seeing it for the first time. Foreign Films get their own category in the Oscars for the specific reason that the quality goes down if we only get subtitles, and can't feel raw emotion in the voice.

I don't have nearly as much of a nostalgic love for SC2 that most of you have, because I only heard about this game a year ago. I first played it with no voices, and even my music was all buggy, but I still loved it at first sight (play?). I wasn't "lost". It was, and still is, the best sci-fi game that I've ever played in my entire life, and my feelings and theories resonate and are shared by everyone on here who has loved SC2 for much longer than I have. Knowing this, I don't think that the lack of voices would kill interest in SC2 as much as you seem to be implying.

It kept me wanting more, and that's high praise coming from someone who had previously given up on all things sci-fi.

I got curious and listened to the 3DO voices about...oh...a week or two after going through the end of the game, so it wasn't as cemented in my mind as it would be for those of you who have played it millions of times. And wow was I totally, unpleasantly surprised. If I had started out with the 3DO version of the game, I can say without any uncertainty that I would've run away screaming. Many of the voices just...didn't fit to me.

For example: With just text, the Slylandro came off as very excited about alien visitors and eager to learn everything that they could about their physiology, culture, and that sort of thing. With the voice added, however, Content to Hover sounded painfully bored with the Captain's presence and insincere when he asked to know more about humans. It obliterated what I considered to be a defining character trait.

Of course, after saying all this I must also say that I have no problem with the Ur-Quan Masters project at all. Hell, I wouldn't be here if I did.  Wink I understand that you want to make it as close to the 3DO version as possible, and have no qualms with putting the voices in there if that is your goal. Likewise, I have no problem with those who may vehemently disagree this me about all this. It's cool that you like what you do. I'm not hear to convert anyone.

However, I'm not going to let the notion that you can't really "get" this game without the help of voice acting go unchallenged, especially when I've personally experienced evidence to the contrary.

Nothing personal, Grakelin. Really. Wink
11  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: Poll: The Utwig voice on: April 05, 2007, 07:39:32 pm
Yes, please! Upload 'em!

Okay, I've uploaded a few of them here. They're in a .zip file. If you open them in Windows Media Player you'll see a little blurb on the side that will give you an idea of what they're saying.

Hmm... that voice is too high. And where's all the solemnity and the ceremony?! I'd rate it on the same place as the 3DO voice.

Oh man, if that voice is too high for you, then you'll probably hate the Japanese voice. Not that it's toddleresque or anything, but the SC2 alien voices are... Well, you know, standard Japanese voice acting high. Except for the Kohr-Ah, which is piss-your-pants low and scary. Lips Sealed

I think the SC3 one has a decent amout of solemn ceremony to it. Different strokes and all that, I guess.

Huh? The other voices are very good. Even the Slylandro gasbag voice is good, though it seems a bit strange at first.

Er... Well... I think I've already been a little offensive during my little rant about the 3DO Utwig, so I'll refrain from going on and on about the others. I don't want to start any big arguements when I'm so new to this place.
12  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: Poll: The Utwig voice on: April 05, 2007, 06:41:55 pm
Rant time!

As a disclaimer: What is written below is only my opinion, nothing more. If you like the 3DO voices, that's fine. You can enjoy whatever you wish.


I love the Utwig very, very much. However, whenever I hear the 3DO voice I want to find the voice actor who did it and punch him in the face.

I first played SC2 without voices. The Utwig never, ever came off as being that obnoxiously whiny. Sad? Yes. Morose? Yes. Suicidal? Yes. But never like a whiny, spoiled brat preteen who didn't get what he wanted for his birthday. The 3DO voice makes dealing with the Utwig entirely unbearable. That, my friends, is a true tragedy.

To this day, I refuse to play the game with voices. Not just because of the Utwig voice, but that was "the straw that broke the camel's back", as it were.

As to what I pictured them sounding like: One of the few things that SC(not)3 did right, to me, was their interpretation of the Utwig's voice. It's pretty much how I pictured it. Not perfect, but very close. I'm sure you can find clips of them on YouTube if you've never played the game.

The Japanese Utwig voice is also a thing of beauty, but in a bit of a different way. It's definitely much more pleasant to listen to than the english 3DO version. They sound like they're in mourning and about to burst into tears at any moment. They stop being as weepy after they get their Ultron back, but there's still some sadness in the voice. I could upload a few voice clips, if you like.
13  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: Poll: describe the Zoq on: April 05, 2007, 05:22:11 pm
I...I still don't get it. The only thing that's similar between the frog and the Zoq is the colour of both the skin and the eyes.

If you want something that looks a bit like a frog or a toad, try the Dnyarri.
14  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: Poll: describe the Zoq on: April 03, 2007, 08:17:46 pm
Plant-like, definitely. It was even my initial catagorization of the Zoq when I first saw them. Plus, there was that whole arguement where the Zoq theatened to "blow a cloud of spores" at the Pik, so I think that pretty much cements it.

To be completely honest (and without meaning to sound insulting), I'm not sure where this "frog-like" description is coming from. Huh
15  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: Terms of surrender. on: April 01, 2007, 06:05:39 am
Look like I'm a little late for the party. Oops.

...Well, this is an easy question for me to answer, so I think I'll just go through all the other options too and share with you why I didn't pick them. You know, just to make it interesting.

"I would fight to the death!" : I'm not very comfortable with death. Oh sure, this might be the "brave and heroic martyr" thing to do, but I value my life just a liiiiiiittle too much to go this route. Plus, the Kzer-Za's idea of slavery is pretty darn cushy, all things considered.

The Androsynth: This wouldn't end well.

"I've talked it over with my crew. We've decided to surrender to you, Androsynth captain."
"Yeah, about that... Remember that time that your grandparents used us as slaves, genetically castrated us, persecuted us, and basically treated us as lesser-than-second-class citizens?"
"We kinda thought you'd have, uh, forgiven us for that and let bygones be bygones by now."
"Does it help if we say that we're really, really sorry?"

The Ilwrath: The only people who would surrender to the Ilwrath would be the clinically insane. I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of being strung up by web-fluid, scalded, and slowly cut open while conscious and then messily eviscerated until my intestines are all strewn about the room and I've been drained of all blood. Or worse.

The Ilwrath don't take prisoners, they take sacrifices.

The Mycon: The best case scenario is that you are Voided for being Non. The worst case scenario is that they find you useful in some way and force you to become part of Juffo-Wup. I have a really scary and horrible mental image of this. Living, yet not...

The VUX: Taking prisoners is not an option. Handing you over to the Kzer-Za is not an option. They will kill you, but at least it'll be a quick death. After all, they don't want to have to look at you longer than they need to, right?

Of course, you could always surrender to ZEX. I'm sure he'd treat humans very, VERY well. Wink

The Spathi: Surrendering to a Spathi seemed like a tempting idea to me at first, but unless you handled the situation carefully there's a strong chance that it'll all go wrong. What if you made them nervous and they accidentally hit the weapons button? What if they didn't trust you enough and fired upon you to defend themselves? What if they called for help from another, more hostile Hierarchy race? What if you scared them so much that they went into a panic long enough for renforcements to arrive?

I love those little guys, and they might mean well, but they're not the most reliable people when it comes to stuff like this. Look at what happened to the poor Algolites, for example.

The Umgah: Even if you surrendered to them, what makes you think that it's going to go entirely in your favor? The Umgah love making trouble and spreading chaos. Humans, I'm sure, aren't an exception from this. They may take you in now in order to pull a hilarious joke on the Kzer-Za, but what's to stop them afterwards from...oh, I dunno...genetically modifying you into a human/VUX hybrid and setting you loose on the VUX homeworld? "Har! Har! Har! Funny joke!"

The Kzer-Za: This is the option I chose in the end. They're true to their word ("Human. We Ur-Quan never lie. NEVER! It is a weakness to lie and, as you have noticed, the Ur-Quan are not weak!") and quite fair, really. They'll take you prisoner and, when they win the first war, will ship you off back to Earth and slave shield the place. As long as we don't try to kill ourselves, escape the shield, or form a resistance, they basically leave us alone.

It's much nicer than being dead.

Edit: Oh man, this looked so much shorter when I was typing it up. Sorry, guys.
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