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News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

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61  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / Starbase Café / Re: Episode 3 on: May 23, 2005, 07:35:43 pm
BTW, wasn't Jar Jar supposed to die?
62  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / Starbase Café / Re: Episode 3 on: May 23, 2005, 07:27:10 pm
Watched the movie yesterday, and it was better then I expected.

Since I didn't care too much for any of the 6 movies, especially episodes I & II, I wasn't even sure I'd watch this one. But then I got free tickets Smiley

At any case, for me Lucas finally figured out what people like and want to see in a Star Wars movie, and stuck to it for 90% of the movie.
What I'm talking about is, of course, flashy light saber and starship fights. Smiley

The rest, with the reason to Anakin turning to the dark side of the force in its head, is just lame, badly done and not convincing. But you already said that.


I'd partly agree with monkeydangs though and say that if these movies were done in the 70's people would've liked them more.
But of course back then most of the cliché's were new, and we were all little kids (if we were alive at all) so flashy lights would've had even greater impact on us then they do now.


So all in all, it is a fun movie to watch as long as you love sci-fi, and most importantly empty your mind before the movie and understand that nothing deep is going to be there, only cool CG and stunts.

(On which I do have some complaints actually, sometime you could see that it's CG and Palpatine fighting was BAD, especially the actor and sometimes the CG).
63  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 23, 2005, 03:59:20 am
Death_999 and Art - I've sent you emails about joining.

About fights - I guess we can have the Hyperspace fights in random environment, but I still think that empty space will be most common.

However I doubt that a fight will ever be boring, considering the large number of ships that will be plaguing the battlefield.

It'll be different though, that's for sure.
64  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 19, 2005, 10:49:57 pm
You can read what the engine will be like on our Wiki.

When I mentioned major changes I was mainly talking bout adding characters.
Adding characters means another graphic, another tune, and another dialog tree. Seems a bit extreme just to solve a minor problem, and giving them quests and stuff is defiantly even more dialogs.
Now if we were swimming in dialog writers and other personal then adding such things might have been easy. However we barley have any as it is...


Anyway, the objective might not be to keep the player inside the quadrant. What I mean is that people (including here) complained that such limits exist, and that they make the game seem more linear then it should be.
So I'm considering allowing the player to go to the New Arm when he's still framed. He still needs to clear his name in order to get the help of the NAFS races which are needed to finish the game, but it will a few more quests to advance in simultaneously (The Khar quest for example, can be completed before you even clear your name).
65  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 19, 2005, 04:15:21 am
Should I gather from the fact that everyone ignores my suggestion that it's not liked?
I was rather waiting to read Art's reply to it...

And Death_999 - we won't be making any major changes to the game like the ones you suggested.
66  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 17, 2005, 01:25:40 pm
Actually the purpose of the "framed" quest and its likely result is to keep the player in the Old Arm until it's solved.

The player is much more limited without the NAFS to back him up, which is why he must clear his name as fast as possible.

He can't get any NAFS captains besides Yehat and Pkunk captains (as opposed to having access to 7 races that he'll have after clearing his name, not including the Chmmr that he think he'll have before returning).

He can no longer approach new races as the representative of the NAFS so his abilities to ally with them are limited (they won't ally with a private person after all).

The player must clear his name to reinstate his mandate to make alliances and work in the name of the NAFS, and to be able to complete the quests that require things from NAFS races.


Anyway, that was more of an FYI Smiley
Back to the point:

I agree with what Art said here, so I won't repeat after him.

Seems to me that my last suggestion - The Chmmr was planning to assassinate the player + their strange actions that appear like preparations to war force him to escape arrest  - solve most of the problems here.
There will be no stun ship/module/improvement and the player just needs to escape battles.

Killing alliance ships instead of escaping will result in high crew prices and other annoyances (thanks Bekanor) later on, the loss of some optional quests (the Supox expedition for example) and the promise of a trial after the current problem is solved (after the game).
It'll be made clear that it's a bad idea to kill alliance ships, and sometimes you'll be able to avoid battles using dialogs.


Anyway, what I ask now is that you'll start telling me what's wrong with that idea and what can be improved about it. Smiley
67  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 16, 2005, 04:54:59 am
Quote
I was just suggesting (it's a minor point really) that it would be more natural, both in gameplay and story, and probably easier to program, if you just made having a drone in your fleet piloted by Wu'bi a requirement for the Druuge starbase part of the quest, rather than using the Drone image.


Yeah that'll work Smiley
The problem is the player side of the deal - when he need to take Wu'bi and his ship to the New Arm. Although it's not really an issue - Wu'bi can just get off the ship when the player docs at a starbase in the New Arm.

Quote
They seek hyperwave transmissions, so they just have to get within whatever their range is.  And a ring of influence wouldn't make sense with 2 opposing sides in 3D space, or with 2 sides eventually meeting.  Still, you're probably right about them not covering the entire galaxy, probably just the areas near this ring.  The main plot hole would be the Taalo.  If the Taalo are near Earth, then wouldn't the Ur-Quan have been in the SC2 area of space already?  Did the Dynyarri send them to the other side of the galaxy for no reason?


Actually that's not a problem. It is indeed possible and even likely that the Ur-quan original HW was somewhere in the area of SC2's starmap since the Taalo are the ones who met them, however it doesn't have to be that way since the milieu did span over most of the galaxy. At any case the Ur-quans did not start their paths in their HW - they did it in the area of the Maul-num HW, where the first doctrinal war begun.
Which means that the Maul-num HW is more or less in the opposite side of the galaxy then ours.

Quote
The Kzer-Za were repelled, though, yes, they kept at it after getting battle thralls and the Sa-Matra.  So the Kohr-Ah wouldn't go away for centuries as I was suggesting.  The Niko would have hidden somehow, like the ZoqFotPik and Druuge, for this plot point to work.  Either hiding completely, or tricking the Kohr-Ah.

The Gerzillion works, but why would he move them?

SC2 suggested that the Arilou didn't know about the Kohr-Ah.

They could hide by not using hyperwave broadcasts, perhaps due to some religious reason, but that's somewhat similar to the ZoqFotPik and Druuge.

Denrode or Alkory technology might hide the new arm races from Kohr-Ah detection.

A prophet of Ssssrila predicts doomsday and/or tells the followers to make a pilgrimage to some other planet before the Kohr-Ah show up, by pure luck or getting information from some other species (the reason should be embarassing).  The planet is in the area of the new arm where the Alkory, etc. are, which the Niko actually aren't native to (the new arm races in the game are a long way from the Kohr-Ah path).  "Unfaithful" Niko are destroyed by the Kohr-Ah.  So the Kohr-Ah are the origin of the bad guys of TW Light.  Niko leaders use them as a threat for species who aren't members, who have never heard of Kohr-Ah and of course think the Niko are crazy.  Then the captain shows up and Niko mythology is confirmed when he mentions the Kohr-Ah.



I like the last idea. We don't really have to answer who warned the Niko or why. The player will learn that it happened around 2,400 years ago, which is 100 years after the Gzerllion left the Ger, but that's the only thing he'll find.
Whoever saved the Niko did it while they were still fairly primitive, and instructed them to "spread the word, warn others and prepare themselves for the coming of the evil Kohr-ah."

Over the years the Niko developed into the theocracy they are now, with corrupted and power hungry "Church of Ssssirpa" as their leaders.
Their belief is now that anyone who follows the Church of Ssssirpa is protected from all harm, and that everyone must be converted into followers.
The player coming and claiming that the Kohr-ah are defeated will only cause them trouble and convince them that removing him from the picture is essential.



As for the entire discussion about the player being framed, knock-out ships and such:

Giving the player a device to teleport crew out of the enemy ship is essentially identical to the original idea of equipping all ships with knockout weapons that'll only be used against NAFS ships.
And It's still an easy way out Smiley

GameMusic's idea of giving the player control on another character for the time being is probably the cleanest and completely not cheesy-looking way to solve the problem.
However it does mean that we loose some things:

1) The player is now defiantly limited to finishing this quest before he can continue to advance in any other quest (since we don't want the game solved by Nir instead of the "player".
This is in contrast to our recent intention of removing the limitations mentioned in the .doc and allowing the player to travel anywhere on the map (including the new arm) before solving this quest. (So we're increasing limitations instead of decreasing them).

2) The player won't be facing the moral dilemma that he'll otherwise face.
And I think that forcing the player to face moral dilemmas is rather fun Smiley

(He'll get to fight alliance ship at any case BTW, since the AI's can take over them, but that was done to make the AI a serious threat).

So I'd like to keep the dilemma if possible.

First problem is why indeed should he escape?
While it's clear that something is wrong at the time, the player doesn't know the full scale of the problem yet. In fact no race has yet to convert to the Niko religion when he left the New Arm.

As Art said, the player needs a good reason as to why he should escape.
Perhaps a good way is this:
By intercepting and decoding Chmmr transmissions Talana and Nir learn that the Chmmr plan to arrange the player's murder while he's still awaiting trial.
They're also amassing their forces, undoubtedly preparing something that no one will like.
Thus, they are forced to help the player escape before he's being murdered, and to help in finding what's wrong with the Chmmr.

As for the player killing alliance officers and crew - The option to escape should and will be open to the player. Should he choose to fight, the Pkunk Queen will use her influence to pros pone the player's trial to after the current problems are solved.
Since it was proved that he was framed, and since after proving his innocence the Chmmr will go haywire and become hostile, it's clear that something is going on and no one have time to deal with his trial anyway.

However it'll be clear that once things will relax (after the game is over) he'll need to answer for his actions.
68  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 16, 2005, 01:23:54 am
Strange_Will  - The full game is not ready yet, when you press New Game you get into work in progress thingy, which is pretty much GOB with some extra stuff thrown on it just to see if they work...

Anyway this thread is not the place to discuss it, feel free to start a new one though.

As to defeating a scout with a blade I'll refer you to Art's post.
69  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 14, 2005, 07:45:22 pm
About the Kzer-za and Kohr-ah paths:

I never imagined the Ur-quans actually conquering and entire galaxy with the SC2 area as the last free place. In SC2 it was said that they circled the galaxy each in a different direction until they met at the other side, which is open to interpretations I guess but I always saw it as creating some kind of "ring" of Ur-quan influence with free areas inside, outside, above and below it.

It's not that the Ur-quans are ignoring these areas, they just didn't get to them yet. 20,000 years might be a long time but it's a huge galaxy we're talking about here, and pretty much swarming with sentient life (15 sentient races natural and native in SC2's 500 stars area. How many stars are there in the galaxy?).
Seems logical that the path that I described will take them about 20,000 years. To actually finish the rest of the galaxy would've probably take millions of years if it's a possible task at all.

The way I see it the Ur-quan plan was simple - each sub-species get 20,000 years to think about its doctrine and test it, afterwards the side which is correct wins the war (thus proving that it's the righteous side) and then both sub-species will cooperate in enslaving or cleansing the rest of the galaxy.


Niko/Kohr-ah relations -
An interesting idea, but even if something saved the Niko what saved the other races in the area?
Also while it's possible and likely that the Kohr-ah have been stalled, it's impossible that they were completely repelled. They are not the type to decide that this enemy is too strong now and they'll deal with it later. In fact this is completely against the reason for their doctrine.

What can be done is that the Kohr-ah were stalled while this Ssssrila creature transported the Niko to safety and away from the Kohr-ah. Maybe not the entire race but just selected individuals.
Could be either the Gzerllion or the Arilou (both should be powerful enough to pull such a stunt).
Any thoughts?


Quote
I really must protest. It's annoying when stories ignore potential moral dilemmas (like being able to gun down 200 cops with no remorse because you were framed) but it's *more* annoying to take a cheap route to *circumvent* moral dilemmas (like magically gaining the ability to fight off the cops without injuring or killing them).

You can make this story path a lot more interesting by giving the player dialogue options that make it clear it's an unpleasant, morally wrenching decision for him to have to fight past loyal Alliance members and kill innocent crewmen but he has to do it for the sake of saving the galaxy. And play with the irony that he's being forced to sacrifice for the greater good because people are accusing him of sacrificing for the greater good. ("Captain, you know I can't let you leave this place." "Don't make me do this, friend. I don't want to open fire but I will if I have to." And, you know, other stuff you can steal from the *good* cop shows.) SC2 did it when you were forced to fight Starship Clan Yehat, after all.



I agree it'll be a great thing to have, but why isn't the player arrested and punished for killing these allies?
"I did it to save the galaxy" isn't likely to be accepted in the court, especially since the prosecutor is likely to claim that since the accusations against the player were faked he would've been found innocent.

(In other words let's find a good explanation and we'll use it in the game).
70  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 13, 2005, 03:52:57 pm
Deus: Ship art is defiantly not complete, in fact most races don't even have a ship for them.
Some ships are very likely to be used for some of the races (Estion Gunner, Khar Boomerang) with few or no modifications but for most races there isn't even an idea of the type of ship they should have.

I'll make another thread about it later asking for help and explaining what we do have.

GameMusic -

Framed questions:
The Umgah don't know about the Druuge evidence. The player knows that he's innocent, and therefore the evidence presented by the Chmmr is obviously fabricated. He makes a deal with the Umgah according to which their agent Wu'bi will break into the Druuge starbase (because the Druuge were the ones who created this fake evidence) and bring proof that it's all set up to frame the captain for something he did not do.

The Druuge would frame the captain because they were paid to do so by the Chmmr and Mrn (You're going to ask why the Chmmr and Mrn did that aren't you? Smiley ).

The evidence is records of the deal the Druuge made with the Chmmr and Mrn and the like.

The player will probably won't be forced to stay in that part of the galaxy, we're working on it.

Wu'bi's ship taking a ship slot - Hmmm... At first I thought it'll be a problem otherwise but battles aren't played like in SC2 anyway so I guess it'll be fine if the player get Wu'bi's ship as a "free" ship in fights considering that it's an Umgah Drone...


Knockouts weapons - Seems like either that cheap explanation (yes I know it's cheap) or ignoring the problem altogether and having the player killing allies without answering for it.
Since I always get annoyed when the "good hero" kill the cops without being punished I've preferred the cheap explanation way.

As for your idea there - while having a ship type that always use knockout weapons will explain things better it'll force the player to use only that kind of ship in battles. I think it'll be much more annoying then being forced to stay in one Arm here or there (which is already annoying enough for people to complain about).


Salvation and MK2 -
The Salvation is weaker then the MK1, and won't be able to use the better modules that the MK2 will be able to use.
It was build with the MK1 as inspiration (and using the information acquired on it from analysis) and for plot reasons can't be a joined alliance effort (as if they're going to listen to invest so much resources based on a vision from that deluded Pkunk queen). However the Queen can mention that they used quite a lot of their Precursor artifacts producing it.

The MK2 is also a deep space exploration vessel according to another conversation or email record from TfB that I've seen somewhere.
Actually whatever we'll make it doesn't really matter. You want a Cruiser - fine Smiley .
Point is - customizable flagship is something that should be kept (Things You Missed In SC3...). It will be more battle oriented and it'll be obvious.
How are we going to stop the player from constantly blowing away the enemy with it? Well he can try but TWL is using a different battle system then SC2.

No more 1on1 battles, this time entire fleets are thrown into the fray! Especially deadly in enemy solar systems that will be swarming with enemy ships, even the mighty MK2 will have trouble surviving.
No more killing VUX for money I'm afraid Wink

Hyper Caster - Make sense, will be done.

Alliance credits and private credits - nitpicking that will make the player scream. Would you like to use two "bank accounts" in the game?
The prices of these items will be small and insignificant in the big picture, plus the player did "earn" these credits by selling things to the Melnorme on his own.
So what you're saying is basically true, but will complicate matters more then we want.

Estion Gunner and Archon - Interesting points. I was intending to give the Archon to the Denrode (it is based on the Warlock design for the Denrode ship, although the only resemblance between Warlock's Denrode and TWL's is the name).
Maybe just moving the freezing affect from the Archon to the Gunner? Need more thought.

Relations between races (and not only new or old races) - will be done by dialog writers as it bear no real effect on the game. Anyway it will happen.
71  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 11, 2005, 03:26:11 am
Lukipela - thanks, and you can either wait for Halleck to finish converting the plot to HTML files, which will also include some minor changes and should get rid of all the horrible and abundant grammar, spelling and other mistakes I put there.

OR you can download OpenOffice (there's a link somewhere at the beginning of the thread) and read the PowerPoint file.


About languages - As the only(?) Hebrew speaker in this thread I'll actually come to Deus defense and say that I did not find his remark about Hebrew disturbing. I know that some other languages sound weird to me.

And BTW Hebrew give Gender to every object too. Sometimes people here aren't sure what it should be so we give it some adjective and see if it's male or female.

As for the perfect language having only one word for every object - now how would you make funny word games in such language? How would you make your feelings more intense, strong, powerful, if you can't use several words with the same/similar meanings.
You loose lots of fun with such a language.

P.S - I hate the word language and can't believe I actually managed to repeatedly write it correctly in this post.
72  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 09, 2005, 09:37:13 pm
I did apologize for that... Sad
You know, not everyone are native english speakers *points at himself*

This is why Halleck is going over all of the docs fixing all of these mistakes, and this is also why I won't be writing any dialogs Wink

Did you know that Hebrew only have 3 tenses? Past, present and future.
Do you have any idea how much more simple matters are that way?
73  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 09, 2005, 04:21:16 am
Paul and Fred worked full time on SC2, and with the full intention of making money from it.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, it's not the money that allow great games to be made (shall we say more easily then fan projects like this) it's the people.
BUT those people work for MONEY. Now, as you probably know the company "buy" someone skill and time and make him work.
We don't have this money, nor do we have the promise that in the future people will make money from this game.
In fact, the best thing that someone will be able to make with TWL once it's completed is add it to his resume.
Paul and Fred, courageous as they were to work as renegades for 6 months still worked on SC2 as their REAL LIFE WORK.
TWL will never ever be someone's real work.
Also, it took Paul and Fred more then 6 months to make SC2, for the other months they got paid. Then Accolade wanted to publish the game when it was, in fact, CRAP.
Going into hiding and working these 6 months was for the intention of making it a good game, with the clear knowledge that good games sell better, thus increasing the profit that they'll make from the game.


Quote
The game is supposed to be open ended. Forced modes of playing for 'story purposes' doesn't make sense. SC 2 told a damn good story and it never took control away from you.

You are confusing plot and design, thinking the two are the same. These 'mini-games' are added fat. You could focus on...

-Expanding conversation trees...
-Expanding the resource element of the game, of what you can do on the planets...
-Expand the 'module' style design of the Mark 2 to be superior to the options we had in SC 2.


I'm getting the impression that you misunderstood something here.
We have design docs that explain the game mechanics and such, and you can look at them in our Wiki
http://openfacts.berlios.de/index-en.phtml?title=Engine

You'll find that the Melee aspect of the game will undergo a big change, there will be expansions to the resource collection aspects (building mines, bigger map).
Let me also assure you that we'll have many new modules for the MK2 and Salvation.

BTW, suggestions here are welcomed, more then to the plot Wink

You mentioned expanding conversation trees - I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here. There will be completely new dialogs in the game, and they will include some new options (like "popup" windows where the characters with you can add their opinion on matters).
Perhaps you meant something else?

Also, while the plot documents are written in a way of 'player does A then B then C' the actual game is not like that.
Limitations are rare (limited to one Arm or the other at some points and some cases of forced autopilot) and we're actually trying to see how we can remove these as well.
Some quests are opened after certain actions are taken, but most of the time the player have several quests going on at the same time, allowing him many options.

This game is not going to be UQM with new dialogs, ships and graphics. There will be changes.

Two more things:

1) You must understand that the people working on TWL are doing it FOR FUN. We don't get paid, nor would we ever make money from this game.
I'll repeat it - FOR FUN. No fun - not working.
So Frank got paid while making a story, the story was dumped, and they he got paid making another. See the difference?
Even if he didn't get paid for the first story BTW, he HAD to make another in order to make a living.
I like this game as it is, I want to play it, I profit in any way if Mr. Pik from the UQM forums will play it or not...

2) Why did we make the plot public?
Mainly to get people to help TWL by writing dialogs, making graphics, composing music and programming it.
And maybe, MAYBE, some minor changes to the plot. Smiley
74  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 09, 2005, 12:26:11 am
It's impossible to keep changing the plot, at some point you must declare that it's done.

Frank said that anything that still don't have graphics made for it can be discarded, but then graphics can only be made for things that have been decided upon.
It's a magic circle, one which I saw at work.

I don't know how real game companies make games, but for one they have MONEY.
All work on TWL is voluntarily, and the people doing it still have their real life to consider, and would like to spend their free time doing other things besides working on TWL. This means that the number of work hours invested on the project in a week is much smaller then what a professional game made by a company get.

Now the situation is simple - I like the plot, there are other people who like the plot. This DOES include programmers and people who make graphics.
Starting over does not only means throwing away things that I actually like, it's also A LOT of work to do.
And while it's easy for you to say 'then do it' it's not you (and I'm not talking only to Deus_Siddis here) who are going to work.

So, I'm just settling for getting help from the people who do like the plot, which there are.
If you dislike it so much that you don't want to do anything with it - fine, stay away and have a nice life.

If you like it and want to help - welcome aboard!

If you'd like to suggest changes - well it'll require you to work and actually make real suggestions that can fit into the game and not some 'scrap this' or 'hey lets make a big Mycon Druuge war' idea or the like of these.

At any case, small suggestions and changes are what is likely to be accepted and not big changes.
I tell the same things to those who join the project and want to help, and they seem fine with it.
If they don't, then unfortunately they'll have to either concede or leave.

Also, as Bekanor pointed out the Niko for example have a very short description. Most races aren't detailed in depth.
This is where dialog writers and anyone else on the team DOES have creative license and are even EXPECTED to use it.
Similar to the structure Frank has mentioned writers each have their race to make where besides the lead writer (which will be me I guess) they "rule supreme".
And I try to let them be as creative and free as they want to.

The Niko (whom are a good example since they are one of the game villains) are NOT finished yet. Their dialog writer will have a lot of work with them, flushing out their history, society and reasons for acting as they do. And Suggestions you'll make for them now will both help and will have a nice chance of being used.

I find that I'm repeating things I have said already so I'll stop here.

Points are:

1) This is the plot. Only little changes are possible, LIVE WITH IT. Suggest such changes if you want to. Shut up if you don't.

2) Help wanted. Smiley
If you liked it and want to help - please do.

3) We don't need advices on how to do things. We need people to actually do things. If you're not going to be the one doing whatever your advice is going to be, then I insist that you'll spare us that advice.

4) None of this is open for discussion.


Have a nice day, and I hope that even the most skeptic of you will like the game once it'll be ready.
75  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release / General UQM Discussion / Re: TW-ligt plot on: May 07, 2005, 01:13:37 am
This is pathetic.

I've taken Death_999 and Art seriously, but your reaction is simply pathetic.

You don't like it? Make your own sequel.
The Majority of people who saw the plot liked it, a lot.
Death_999 and Art are in a minority group even with their complains.

So again - make your own game instead of stomping and destroying the projects of others.
No one is forcing you to help or to play it.
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