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Author Topic: Eeeevil!  (Read 10838 times)
Fsi-Dib
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Eeeevil!
« on: July 22, 2003, 11:29:59 pm »

Mainly continueing (wtf?) the "who is evil" conversation on "Melnorme Exposed", where it doesn't fit. So we can continue it here. Simple! Yay!

Mainly I first start to think of the EVIL in Earthlings. Greed, oh yes, the greed. If earthlings wouldn't be greedy there wouldn't be an option to name the league as "The Empire of MEEE!". Well, compared to Ur-Quans, humans ain't so bad ... not counting some individuals that live.
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2003, 01:52:10 am »

Quote
...

Hmm, good pretty much has an overkill...


Argh!
I cannot belive this!
How can you bring Starcontrol down to Good vs Evil?!?
The point of the whole game, it's massege, is that there is no good or evil. I think that the story of the Ur-Quan and Spathi's fear of The Ultimate Evil (tm) makes it quite clear. Besides who in the hell are we to say what is good and what is evil, the definition of good and evil is different among cultures on Earth, so how can you relate it to inter-species relations?
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Death 999
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2003, 03:23:35 am »

I am amused that you can quite completely form warring factions out of the 'good' side. I guess you're setting the bar a little low?

Of course, this is because it is silly. Ivan is right. International and inter-species relationships cannot be easily categorized into good and evil, since they tend to be thorough mixtures of the two.
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2003, 12:27:49 am »

Hey folks,have I remind you that the game was created by hunams?
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2003, 12:36:20 am »

EXCUSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE ME? HUMANS? PRIII AND FF? They are at least SEMI-DEVINE, and even that title doesn't do them justice!  Grin
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Death 999
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2003, 01:27:33 am »

Quote
Hey folks,have I remind you that the game was created by hunams?


Hunams who did an unusually good job of making the antagonists not wholly evil.
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2003, 02:59:21 am »

What are you guys talking about?! The Dnyarri are evil incarnate! The Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah, Ilwrath, Druuge, Mycon, Orz, VUX and Thraddash all tend to lean towards evil, but aren't really.

What was I thinking? The Druuge are also evil. The only thing stopping them from being absolutely evil is their general dislike for battle.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2003, 03:02:14 am by Shiver » Logged
Death 999
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2003, 03:08:55 am »

The Druuge may be evil, but they are evil in a realistic self-interested way rather than the evil-for-evil's sake that tends to run rampant in video games.

That does seem to pop up in the Dnyarri, but it's OK because
A) they are mind-controllers, why would they have any idea of social law?
B) they are not our enemies in the story.
C) as the chmmr say, "If there is such a thing as pure evil, this is it." IF. It is not taken for granted. We may find that SC2 was a few parts of a Rashomon-like pastiche, in which Greenish and the 'Quan and the Dnyarri all have skewed views of the actual events.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2003, 07:29:44 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2003, 10:58:42 am »

You cant label things "good" and "evil"

Thats the entire point and idea behind Starcontrol 2.

The world is not black and white.

When you start labeling things good and evil, you sound like George W. Bush. The lowest IQ president of the US ever. And thats not an exaggeration. He has an IQ of 89
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2003, 01:55:17 pm »

Quote
What are you guys talking about?! The Dnyarri are evil incarnate! The Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah, Ilwrath, Druuge, Mycon, Orz, VUX and Thraddash all tend to lean towards evil, but aren't really.


The Dnyarii dont have to be evil. Maybe mind cotroling is just their way of surving. Look at them they look like someone crossed a cows brain and a frog, they have no claws teeth or anything, the only way of defending themselves from sabertooth tigers and such was - I guess - mind cotrol

As for the both Ur-Quan races - no they are not evil, they are just... affraid. And because of that fear they kinda lost their contact with reality... but then again, who's to say that for example the Syreen wont evolve into mind-controling enslavers...

As for the Ilwrath - well it may be hard to say that a species that pins down other aliens to altars and eats their internal organs isn't entirely evil, but what's wrong with being religious!

And all the other species... I cant understand why did you call them evil.

The Druuge are just selfish capitalist cowards - nothing evil about that.

The Mycons are... hell I never could understand why anyone would call them evil they didn't do anything  wrong.  The destruction of Syra was just a classic of Mother Nature In Action: two species fighting for survival - both needed the planet as a place to live, the strongest one took it. Well yeah they're are both sentient so technicaly they could get along but every other race says that Mycons are like stuck in the 60'.
The Kohr-Ah lost their contact with reality because they went to the other room for a second and they just cant hear it. But the Mycons... the Mycons they pluged their ears and started screaming "LALALALAALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!!!!" But it definitely doesn't mean they're evil

Orz - We know nothing about them. While it seems that they may pose a threat to us/the galaxy/the universe in some time it does not mean that they are evil.

The Vux are just xenophobes and the Thraddash like to start fights. It's not nice but it is far from being Eeeeevil! Like I said Eeeevil does not exist. It's just a simplification made up by the hunams. The hunams obsereved their world and saw a few nice things and some bad things, they added up all the nice thigs and called it Good, and added up all the bad things and called it Eeeeeevil. Of course the one who desided what is nice and what is not was a hunam.
Do you think it would be nice to get your head cut off by a butcher?
Do you eat hamburgers?
Do you get the point?
It's all relative.
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2003, 10:59:54 pm »

Plus, in order to turn this into a black and white state of affairs, you need to actually define evil. What is it by your definition? The state of being under which one commits acts that inconveniences others? That harms others? What do you define as that fine line between 'okay' and 'not okay'? Killing? Enslaving? Torturing? Manipulating others for personal gain?

In each of those cases 'evil' is completely different.
The Kohr-Ah don't believe in torture, don't believe in manipulating others, don't believe in humiliating other races nor do they act out of profit at the expense of others. Yet most would define them as evil.

The Syreen however do enslave others, do manipulate others for personal gain, and do kill the Mycons in the name of vengeance. However, most people would define them as 'good' as well as perfectly justified.

So, yes. You can't really define any race as evil in terms of black and white, because none of them really fit the paradigm. Though I have to agree with Shiver; if any race comes close to completely 'evil', in my opinion it would have to be the Druuge and the Dnyarri.
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2003, 11:31:48 pm »

You can try me. I'm evil....
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2003, 02:52:56 am »

And feeding the debate, I'll quote/misquote a book by Terry Pratchett.

There is a debate between a priset of the tolerant Omnian faith and an old witch. The priest holds that it is not a question of black and white anymore, there are just so many shades of grey.

To which the witch replies : No there aint. there's just white that has gotten grubby. And it all begins with thinking of people as things."

"Surely there it is more complicated than that. There are many crimes worse than thinking that way."

"Yes, but they all begin when you start thinking of people as things"

Now what has this got to do with the debate? Simply that when you debate good'n evil, you should always keep in mind that if you believe in the concept of good or evil, shades of grey aren't really an option. There's good, and there's bad. Period. Otherwise you may as well argue, that from the point of the torturer, torture is a just thing.

And if you don't believe in good and evil, merley in actions and reactions, then all of this is moot. In that case, all of these things are simply consequences of choices made long ago. As to the intentions of those who made the choices, well they are moot as well.

Just to give you a starting point Primat, "People as things". That fits both the Dnyarri and the Druuge neatly into the fold, and several other races/members of races as well.
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2003, 03:25:16 am »

nice story... please do a summary, i didn't read it it was too long....almost fell asleep
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Re: Eeeevil!
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2003, 06:32:17 pm »

Well... Maybe you could start practicing your reading? You know, start reading the paper every day, and after a month or two, progress to actual books. When you've gotten that far, most of the stuff on these boards should be no problem.

Either that, or drink more coffee.
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