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Author Topic: Earthling Nuke=Weak  (Read 7787 times)
thechortler
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Earthling Nuke=Weak
« on: August 04, 2003, 11:27:01 am »

Obviously, as anyone who's played the game will attest.  What's the deal with the Cruiser's paltry nuclear missiles?  They're nukes, yet they only do 4 crewman's worth of damage?  This is odd, when an acidic bubble does half as much.  This is in the future, so we can assume they're using thermonuclear, or hydrogen, bombs, pushing the yield well into the megatons.  How would enemy ships be damaged so little by such a godly weapon?  As far as I can tell, there are two possibilites.  One, the alien ships have awesome armor, and nukes just aren't that powerful compared to peer weapons.  The immediate problem I have with this theory is that it means each ship would need tons and tons of armor to withstand an attack, and would weigh hundreds of thousands of tons.  How do they move around so fast?  It requires a leap of the imagination--alien tech makes it possible--but I'm just a little too jaded and realisitc to go there.  I prefer the second take: The animation of a nuke hitting a ship is a graphig representation of the event happening, not a pixel-verbatim take.  I mean, the ships aren't really that big compared to the planet they're fighting around!  I believe that the nuke automatically goes off at a preset range, say 600 meters, to insure payload delivery and that it won't be shot down or dismantled or something by shipboard countermeasures.  At that range, in space, the damage threshold starts to make more sense.  But a graphic representation, not a verbatim one, opens the door to a whole host of other problems with the game--does each limpet now represent a cloud of them?  Is the Arilou ship...bah, never mind.

Just some random thoughts I had a moment ago.  I applaud SC and SC2 for not making humans the uber-force, and in fact making them on a rather inferior setting compared to the other races, but you still can't hide this discrepancy.  What is your take on this theory?
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2003, 02:02:03 pm »

Well there are plenty of factors to think about:
- They are most likly low yield weapons.
- Ships are most likly pretty armored.

Personally I always thought the ships were bigger then they say, with each dot being like a 100 crew members or so and the damage was a representation of the damage to the ship.  But then again this is just my opinion.

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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2003, 04:46:27 pm »

Once upon a time, on the old Accolade-homepage
i found an history of earth, prescribing old human history:

Sometime in (for us) near future, an atomic war in near-east (iraq, iran, ...) will nearly destroy earth. The indutrialized nations start to bring their armies under UN-control and thus starting to make the UN a real Earth-government to stop the war. After that, _ALL_ nuclear weapons are stored in huge underground peace-vaults. When the Chenjesu contact Earth to bring us into war, we open the vaults to have some weapons, since the development of weapons are strictly observed (and in most cases, like thermonuclear technology) forbidden. The only new weapons are defensive nature (laser-defence). Therefor we are fighting with several hundred year old design of  nuclear bombs.

I don't remember it too exactly, but maybe it was also in the manual of SCone. Mine is not at hand.

BTW: It's scaring how realistic this nuclear incident still is! FF&PRIII just made these games, in a hope that anyone might see this danger also and tries to prevent the war. Although humankind might not become one without this imminent danger just ahead.
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Chrispy
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2003, 07:14:57 pm »

the nukes arnt that powerful to balance the earthling, cus its nukes are prety awsome as it is. Thier are lots of things that dong make sence

why arnt the bigger ships (dreadnaught) faster than the onse with slow engeons

why are lasers (chmmr) as powerful as machine guns (yehat)

why dont the lasers go on forever, like light generally does

how does the androsynth turn into a comet

it fire cant exist in space cus of the lack of oxygen, whats with the illwraht and the thraddash

how come asteroids dont break in colitions, and why dont they damage ships

what makes the saws from a kohr-ah make a dead stop in space
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Death 999
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2003, 07:59:16 pm »

We get the gameplay justification for the nuke being weak... it's the physics of it that's confusing.
I agree -- there is no reason to arm the ships with low-yield nukes, since hydrogen bombs can destroy anything made of atoms. Game balance it is.

"why arnt the bigger ships (dreadnaught) faster than the onse with slow engeons"
Why aren't the bigger ships (dreadnaught) faster than the ones with slow engines?
Well, you could say that they ARE. The cruiser has weak engines, and the dreadnaught catches up with it. Perhaps you mean SMALL engines? Well, the big engine just makes up for the great mass of the ship, giving the dreadnaught the speed it DOES have.

"why are lasers (chmmr) as powerful as machine guns (yehat)"
Why not? Machine guns can't punch through armor. Some lasers can.

"why dont the lasers go on forever, like light generally does"
You cited game balance earlier -- now I do. If it went on forever, the screen would be filled with fire.
Also, lasers may have a reputation for being collimated (facing the same direction, not spreading), but this is an exaggeration. They do gradually spread out over distance. The limited range of the lasers is probably a representation of that (it doesn't make much sense otherwise), though the damage should ramp off if this were the case.

"how does the androsynth turn into a comet"
You might as well ask how the Mmrnmhrm ship transforms. It's one of the more blatantly nonphysical bits of star control physics.

"it fire cant exist in space cus of the lack of oxygen, whats with the illwraht and the thraddash"
What we see is glowing gas, not flame. We just call it flame. Also, the 'afterburner' might well have involved oxygen inside the reaction chamber.

"how come asteroids dont break in colitions, and why dont they damage ships"
The game is more fun that way. Same for ship-ship collisions.

"what makes the saws from a kohr-ah make a dead stop in space"
Precursor bungee technology.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 08:00:13 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2003, 09:16:03 pm »

There are so many things that the only real answer is "For the sake of gameplay," with and appendage to the story line later.

Here's a few more.

Q. Why are even the smallest spaceships as big as a planet?
A. For the sake of gameplay.

Q. Why do 2 ships coliding at incredable speeds do no damage to each other?
A. For the sake of gameplay. The manual says something abou all ships having structural integrety shields for this very reason, but the Chmmr pounding your ships with a crystal does do damage.

Q. Why do hits only kill crew, so that a ship pounded to h-e-double hockey sticks still function the same as a new ship?
A. For the sake of gameplay.

Q. Why does an androsynth ship which looks like it has 4 captians still function when it's crew is 3 or less?
A. For the sake of gameplay.
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2003, 09:34:45 pm »

You see, the nukes aren't actually really nukes but tactical nukes. Extreamly tactical nukes come to think of it. The Guidence system is also very tactical. That is, if tactical means pathetic. Smiley
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2003, 10:24:26 pm »

maybe the nuclear bomb is VERy VERY small? lets say as a size of a very small apple pie
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Chrispy
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2003, 11:04:50 pm »

ya i only pointed those out to state that lots of things like the weak nukes dont make sence
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2003, 11:58:46 pm »

Nah, you all misunderstood; these are just missiles with a conventional payload but a nuclear propulsion Wink
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2003, 12:21:03 am »

no i think thier actually nukes. in the little story of what happened before the game takes place, it says that they took nukes and put then in 'peace vaults' and are now using them in the crusers
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Death 999
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2003, 12:35:27 am »

No, they're electrostatic repulsion bombs! Why else do you think it takes battery to fire?
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Chrispy
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2003, 01:56:34 am »

it takes battery power to launch them
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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2003, 11:52:07 am »

Why to use low grade nukes, and not big honking ones -

EMP

Big nuke goes off, big EMP.  It's all very well and nice that your foe is now superhot plasma, but it's not so nice that the EMP released from that bomb has fried every piece of electronics on your ship, leaving you to die a cold, dark death in space.


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Re: Earthling Nuke=Weak
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2003, 12:25:27 pm »

Not really. Ships are so far from each other in space combat that EMP doesn't reach to your ship. Makes you think... space combat would look like a blotch in the distance jumping around really fast while it fires things at you that rapidly increase in size.

"Hey computer, what's that cute little green speck over there?"
"An Ur-Quan Dreadnought."
"Oh shit!!"

Good topic, by the way.

Edit: I'm wrong. Every ship must be loaded with advanced equipment that can zoom in really far so you can see what's going on.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2003, 12:27:40 pm by Shiver » Logged
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