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Author Topic: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas  (Read 18076 times)
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2003, 09:29:29 pm »

-- The thraddash afterburner hotspots should move, since they should be at rest compared to the ship the moment they were released. Since the ship is probably moving at that moment, the hotspots should be moving. Note that this is consistent with the behavior of other weapons.

-- As far as Nuke proximity fuses -- the nuke could go off if the dot product between its orientation vector and the displacement to the target has become zero or negative (i.e. it has just passed the target). This will get it as close as possible, while still making it hit the target directly if it can.

-- The gigantic planet idea would again be a huge change... However! Making the planet huge is a necessary counterbalance to giving the planet strong gravity. Otherwise it's like playing near a neutron star instead... which would be different and fun, but not balanced in the same way.
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2003, 09:54:12 pm »

Something that I find really odd, the only factor as too how much damage the planet does is how much crew you have.  How about making it something that makes sense, something like a combination of speed and shipmass?  Also it should really slow you down after you hit it, so its not like a ping-pong ball.
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2003, 10:22:28 pm »

I think you are wrong death. The thraddash was with his back toward me and he moved toward me. I didn't move and it shot it on me!!!! I wonder how the AI knew about this "change".
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2003, 12:53:47 am »

Well...

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-- The thraddash afterburner hotspots should move, since they should be at rest compared to the ship the moment they were released. Since the ship is probably moving at that moment, the hotspots should be moving. Note that this is consistent with the behavior of other weapons.


The thraddash puffballs DO attain a velocity relative to the ship's velocity. In fact, they're shot BACKWARDS at the same speed (relative to the ship) that the bullets are shot FORWARD; the rationale being that anything that imparts THAT much forward momentum to the ship must be moving quite quickly the other way. Because of the huge accelerations on both sides, though, it might be somewhat hard to tell.

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-- As far as Nuke proximity fuses -- the nuke could go off if the dot product between its orientation vector and the displacement to the target has become zero or negative (i.e. it has just passed the target). This will get it as close as possible, while still making it hit the target directly if it can.


That's more-or-less what I've tried to accomplish - you may notice, they already DO detonate on proximity, but it seems to only work about 30% of the time. I'm still debugging this.

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-- The gigantic planet idea would again be a huge change... However! Making the planet huge is a necessary counterbalance to giving the planet strong gravity. Otherwise it's like playing near a neutron star instead... which would be different and fun, but not balanced in the same way.


The planet's already been scaled up by a factor of 8; anything bigger REALLY thrashes the rendering engine. Gravity has been scaled up by a factor of 3, sort of - it's been changed from linear to an inverse square (which makes Keppler orbits possible]. I'm currently working on an 'atmosphere' band, which will slow any objects down that pass through it.

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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2003, 01:05:13 am »

Wow, its been a long time, but college is in the way as it were, and I haven't had time to check this too much. Just from reading, however, I have a few comments:

Armor ratings: This may just be me, but why is the Mmrnhrm armor higher than the much larger Chenjesu? Is it due to crystalline design compared to compacted metal?
Was the Yehat armor kept low due to it's natural ability to shred anything it aims at, or just because the Yehat didn't see a need for plating? (You'd think they'd want some, their ship is kinda pokey...) Also, would the Mycon GET an armor rating? Their ship is organic, which would yield some odd benefits and disadvantages...

 HentaiZoga, on his Aug 23rd post, forgot the Syreen, the Arilou, the ZoqFot, the Kohr-Ah, and probably some we both missed. I don't know if they've had these things added, but be I so bold to offer for the Syreen:
Front -Weapons, Spec.
Side- Crew, LSS, Turn control  
Back- Engines, Turn control, although less-so as side shots.
 I also noted that not all ships have LSS. Obviously, races like the Chmrr, Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm and Slylandro dont have it (vaccuum supported races, Slylandro doesn't technically HAVE crew) but shouldn't all other living races have such a chance at catastrophy? Looks like those poor ugly VUX are the only noted ones. Probably ease up on the Shofixti and the Arilou, though, as they die easy as is.

Easy idea for the increased turning vectors: Take the pictures of the ships at their 16 different angles, put 'em in Adobe Workshop or the like, then rotate it each time by 5.625 degrees to get 64 different facings, save and name. Simple.

Deep_jiffa: The Slylandro ship works correctly: It depends on which direction you're going. If you press thrust, you know it reverses direction: a full 360. This means that the entire ship is going backwards. Ever steered a car going in reverse? Same concept, which is why no one likes to play the Slylandro.

Weapons/Spec: Is the Kzer-Za fusion blast going to have a radius as well? Something of that power and being unhindered by a shell like a missle, should, I think.
Another idea; possibly weapons such as the Mycon plasmoid, the Androsynth Fireball, and even Kohr-Ah FRIED should have 'tracer' damage. They're all potentially high damage, high energy weapons. The Mycon plasmoid decays as it flies: does the plasma just disappear? I think it would be left behind in space as the different layers expand out and break the outer shell of the plasmoid. The Blazer is like a comet, and comets have trails. Kinda like engine wash on steroids. FRIED...well, I guess it's powerful enough, but that stuff must practically burn a hole in space. The tracer damage wouldn't deal TOO terrible damage, but it would make ships like the Pkunk, Shofixti, Arilou, and all the other chaser ships a little more wary of following these tugs.
Another thing about the Androsynth Guardian (I love this ship, but it's more of a downside) and the X-Form too, I guess. There should be a delay inbetween Guardian/Blazer and Xform/Yform. Watch the Blazer collapse into a ball, watch the Transformer's wings move. Also for the Guardian, coming out of the Blazer mode would probably leave the ship going at it's last speed (top, I'd wager) and would leave the ship's hull VERY hot, so it'd do damage if touched as well, but the metal would be more flexible, either temporarily weakening the armor or simply making damage scored in systems rather than armor easier. Just seems realistic.
Chenjesu: Do the Crystal Shards travel until they reach the edge of the map, or do they go indefinitely? I'd wager edge-of-map, as that'd get a little laggy and would be too easy for a Chenjesu to score a win.
Druuge: Someone mentioned that the ship would repair quicker when it used it's special ability. Why? You're torching a crewmember, that would make it LESS useful, not more (unless the slaves are thinking "not me next!").
More comments once I test the thing, I'm @ the college computers right now and I can't. They'd kill me if I DLed something like this.

Shoot, forgot something: Projectiles, if they already aren't, should be pulled by the force of gravity, except powered ones like Nukes, which could fight it off. As for laser weapons, they'd bend in the atmosphere, but gravity wouldn't have any effect.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 01:07:47 am by NECRO-99 » Logged

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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2003, 04:34:57 am »

Quote
Armor ratings: This may just be me, but why is the Mmrnhrm armor higher than the much larger Chenjesu? Is it due to crystalline design compared to compacted metal?


Yes, precisely. The Chenjesu will have lower armor because their hull is more brittle, but will repair faster.

Quote
Was the Yehat armor kept low due to it's natural ability to shred anything it aims at, or just because the Yehat didn't see a need for plating? (You'd think they'd want some, their ship is kinda pokey...)


The Yehat armor was kept low out of the idea that it's a fast, maneuverable ship, and weighing it down with tons of diamond-impregnated alloy would slow it down, a LOT.

Quote
Also, would the Mycon GET an armor rating? Their ship is organic, which would yield some odd benefits and disadvantages...


Indeed. And I feel they would get armor, since their genetic engineering allows them to create egg pods that can survive reentry and impact forces of over 6,000 G's.

Quote
for the Syreen:  
Front -Weapons, Spec.  
Side- Crew, LSS, Turn control  
Back- Engines, Turn control, although less-so as side shots.


I think that turn control should be managed primarily by the back fins, which are more back than side. The side should be primarily crew, LSS, and special ability; the front should be almost entirely weapon and battery.

Quote
 I also noted that not all ships have LSS. Obviously, races like the Chmrr, Chenjesu, Mmrnhrm and Slylandro dont have it (vaccuum supported races, Slylandro doesn't technically HAVE crew) but shouldn't all other living races have such a chance at catastrophy? Looks like those poor ugly VUX are the only noted ones.


Pretty much all of them will have potential LSS hits, except for the non-organics. Some will just have more LSS than others [the Mycon, for example, will have LSS crits as a high probability from ANY angle].

Quote
Probably ease up on the Shofixti and the Arilou, though, as they die easy as is.


Perhaps. I'm thinking that 'special' crits to the Shofixti will prematurely detonate their 'glory device', whereas 'special' hits to the Arilou will disable their warp device, but also instantly activate it one last time (getting them out of any further damage from this impact).

Quote
Easy idea for the increased turning vectors: Take the pictures of the ships at their 16 different angles, put 'em in Adobe Workshop or the like, then rotate it each time by 5.625 degrees to get 64 different facings, save and name. Simple.

As it is, I'm just using the current 16 facings, but having 256 actual turning angles. It's very difficult adjusting EVERYTHING that needs rework moving from 16 facing directions (projectiles, explosions, etc.), and it doesn't look TOO bad to just 'approximate' the actual angle when rendering.

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Deep_jiffa: The Slylandro ship works correctly: It depends on which direction you're going. If you press thrust, you know it reverses direction: a full 360. This means that the entire ship is going backwards. Ever steered a car going in reverse? Same concept, which is why no one likes to play the Slylandro.


I THOUGHT that was the case, but I wasn't quite sure. I now have equal weight and both sides. Would a third party care to verify?

Quote
Weapons/Spec: Is the Kzer-Za fusion blast going to have a radius as well? Something of that power and being unhindered by a shell like a missle, should, I think.


I think the fusion blasts should be point-hits, and not have a blast radius. The whole reason they do so much damage is that all the energy burns straight INTO the hull instead of dissipating in an explosion.

Quote
Another idea; possibly weapons such as the Mycon plasmoid, the Androsynth Fireball, and even Kohr-Ah FRIED should have 'tracer' damage. They're all potentially high damage, high energy weapons. The Mycon plasmoid decays as it flies: does the plasma just disappear? I think it would be left behind in space as the different layers expand out and break the outer shell of the plasmoid. The Blazer is like a comet, and comets have trails. Kinda like engine wash on steroids. FRIED...well, I guess it's powerful enough, but that stuff must practically burn a hole in space. The tracer damage wouldn't deal TOO terrible damage, but it would make ships like the Pkunk, Shofixti, Arilou, and all the other chaser ships a little more wary of following these tugs.


A neat idea, but somewhat difficult to implement without totally bogging down the system. There's potential approximations that can be made, however - but it might overpower these ships a touch.

Quote
Another thing about the Androsynth Guardian (I love this ship, but it's more of a downside) and the X-Form too, I guess. There should be a delay inbetween Guardian/Blazer and Xform/Yform. Watch the Blazer collapse into a ball, watch the Transformer's wings move.


Heh. I have a fun idea for the Transformer, actually - I was hoping on adjusting the graphics for the X-wing mode, so that instead of just shifting the wings back and forth, it actually transformed into a stylish 80's cartoon robot, with the laser cannon on the sides of its arms. Slap a modified 'autobot' symbol on the side and camp it up.

Quote
Also for the Guardian, coming out of the Blazer mode would probably leave the ship going at it's last speed (top, I'd wager) and would leave the ship's hull VERY hot, so it'd do damage if touched as well, but the metal would be more flexible, either temporarily weakening the armor or simply making damage scored in systems rather than armor easier. Just seems realistic.


I DO like this idea, but I don't know how difficult this will make them to play.

Quote
Chenjesu: Do the Crystal Shards travel until they reach the edge of the map, or do they go indefinitely? I'd wager edge-of-map, as that'd get a little laggy and would be too easy for a Chenjesu to score a win.

The little chunks die out after 0.5 seconds; the actual main 'bullet' keeps going until you let go of the button.

Quote
Druuge: Someone mentioned that the ship would repair quicker when it used it's special ability. Why? You're torching a crewmember, that would make it LESS useful, not more (unless the slaves are thinking "not me next!").


I mostly figured that the sudden boost of power would let the crew manage repairs more effectively.

Quote
Projectiles, if they already aren't, should be pulled by the force of gravity, except powered ones like Nukes, which could fight it off. As for laser weapons, they'd bend in the atmosphere, but gravity wouldn't have any effect.


Yes, I'm working on this, but in some cases having gravity work on them creates a few odd secondary effects.
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2003, 09:50:29 am »

In reply to the Chenjesu bit, I guess I should've specified: In Frenzy, how does the shard operate?

Other temporary stat change ideas:
-Kohr-Ah FRIED. If it annihilates things from the outside of the nova, imagine the CENTER of it.  Shocked Probably do the same thing as the Blazer-mode exit, but potentially longer, and it would affect the entire hull.
-Syreen Call: Ports would need to open along the length of the ship as long as crew were out in space, thus lowering their side armor.
-Orz Marine: Temporarly lower rear armor to allow ingress/egress of Marines.
-Kzer-Za Fighters: Temporarly lower dorsal armor to allow ingress/egress of fighters.
-Chenjesu DOGI's: Same as Fighters and Marines.
-Ilwrath Hellblast: Anyone ever notice on the little spec screen that it said "Poor tactical positioning" right next to the Hellblaster? Perhaps it has a bit of curlback and would temporarily weaken the frontal armor.
(Poor bastards are weak as-is, though...)
-Thraddash Afterburners: Prolonged use (50% or more of total fuel reserves) would weaken rear armor.

Personally, I think it would make it a bit more of a challenge to have these bits implemented, it makes captains think more about using special powers rather than causing liberal overuse of special weapons. I know there's nothing I hate worse than Dread pilots that spill their guts into fighters. Those little buzzers piss me off. Marines too. I hate Orz. Angry
« Last Edit: September 04, 2003, 10:03:41 am by NECRO-99 » Logged

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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2003, 02:29:35 pm »

Quote
Was the Yehat armor kept low due to it's natural ability to shred anything it aims at, or just because the Yehat didn't see a need for plating?
They have shields, why would they need armor?
Quote
Deep_jiffa: The Slylandro ship works correctly: It depends on which direction you're going. If you press thrust, you know it reverses direction: a full 360. This means that the entire ship is going backwards.
Backwards is a 180 degree turn. (360 brings you forward again.)

Quote
Another idea; possibly weapons such as the Mycon plasmoid, the Androsynth Fireball, and even Kohr-Ah FRIED should have 'tracer' damage. They're all potentially high damage, high energy weapons. The Mycon plasmoid decays as it flies: does the plasma just disappear?
But it gets cold and stops burning. then it's just gas and not plasma. And the proximity the dissolving plasma would have towards the plasmoid makes it unnecessary to have "tracer"remnants left (the plasmoid would hit you the saem time as the tracer).

Quote
The Blazer is like a comet, and comets have trails.
No, the Blazer is not a comet. It has a comet shape. BTW: comets leave a trail because the ice is metling near the sun and the solarwind pushes the trail away. That's why the comets' trail always points away from the sun.) With the guardian there's nothing melting - thus no trail.

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FRIED...well, I guess it's powerful enough, but that stuff must practically burn a hole in space. The tracer damage wouldn't deal TOO terrible damage,
When the fire is out, the remaining ashes/gases would in worst case jam your engine for half a second. Nothing more (except maybe putting some dirt on the optics of a lasercannon, thus making it unuseable or less effective until the optics are cleaned again.). BTW: Why does the laserlight stop at the FRIED? Light should be able to pass fire, making it even hotter (and thus longerliving or inflicting more damage) but still hitting the Kohr-Ah.

Quote
Another thing about the Androsynth Guardian (I love this ship, but it's more of a downside) and the X-Form too, I guess. There should be a delay inbetween Guardian/Blazer and Xform/Yform. Watch the Blazer collapse into a ball, watch the Transformer's wings move.
first things first. This project is quite a lot for one man, inserting more graphics or even more (IF (...) THEN (...)) to calculate inflicted damages is a huge project. I'm apllauding at HentaiZonga for doing this. Before we start adding even more and more cases of reality damage I'd like to see a version of UQM Frenzy working. Another thing: SC became so beloved because the physics and damage is easy to count. If you have armor, this and that influencing, then I'd never continued playing SC, because I'm not able to say why my guns not working, why my ship got slower, why my left engine is not working and I'm always turning to the left side, why I got killed although I haven't touched the Planet (but the atmosphere). I never took the sizes as for what they are (come on, the nukes cannot be THAT huge). I just took it al for playability. If you shange too much, the playability might get lost.

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Also for the Guardian, coming out of the Blazer mode would probably leave the ship going at it's last speed (top, I'd wager)
That would not be balanced anymore. You can use the cometform to escape, but the downside is, if your energy is low, then you will stop early and be toasted. Part of the comet tactic is to come, hit and run. That's what the ships been designed for. You have to run while still in comet-mode. Otherwise the batterycapacity would have to be a third smaller.

Quote
and would leave the ship's hull VERY hot, so it'd do damage if touched as well, but the metal would be more flexible, either temporarily weakening the armor or simply making damage scored in systems rather than armor easier.
Very hot, inflicting self-damage? The form has been changes, the hot hull has cooled down and thus the blazermode is stopped.

Quote
As for laser weapons, they'd bend in the atmosphere, but gravity wouldn't have any effect.
And disperse the laserbeam (thus loosing damagecapacity)....

So HentaiZonga, you got some work to do....
Whatever you do, be happy! Whatever you change, if it hurts playability undo it. The game has become famous for its' playability. That's what needs to be preserved. For the rest: I love seeing someone trying to implement more realistic damagesystems. Keep your good work and enthusiasm up!

Grretings,
Martin
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2003, 04:24:45 pm »

Brent, don't you have the original uqm.exe file? If not tell me and I will send you the file. If you don't trust me that I will give you the original file just reinstall (not all files, minimal install) and then you will see that the slylandro isn't reversed.

Or you could ask other people who doesn't use common sense like necro but use knowledge.
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2003, 08:25:26 pm »

Jiffa, it's no wonder you're not liked too much here if you make remarks like that about people. Some of my ideas are odd and possibly dont work, but they're just that: ideas. No one said they have to implement them, did they?

And what does "common sense" have to do with the Slylandro turning? I think its common sense to realize that, when in reverse, your turning changes. It's always worked this way in the uqm I've had, and I suspect since the downloads are identical, it should be the same for all.

Just like Ivan, Zoga, and Death_999 all have said, I guess I'll add to the list. Don't be a jerk.
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2003, 10:33:59 pm »

No It isn't. I have the original uqm and it isn't reversed. Funny huh?
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2003, 12:06:39 am »

Well I've never touched my control settings, and it's backwards for me. Guess I'm used to it, but it's no big deal.
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2003, 01:54:04 am »

Krulle:
-About the Yehat: They've got shields, but they can't keep them up constantly. They might be birds of valor, but they're no idiots.
-The 360 bit: Damn, not enough sleep on this end of the keyboard. Tongue
-About FRIED and the plasmoid: I guess I should specify. Instead of being balls/spherical in nature, they'd have tails of the energy that's burning off of them. Guess it'd just be a graphic touch.
-About Blazer form:Do you think that the ship uses energy to cool itself back down to a stable temperature before it disengages Blazer? It'd have to. Even though it disengages, a hull doesn't go from 18 thousand degrees back to it's normal temperature instantly. That's not physically possible, it'd warp the hull something terrible. I also know that the insta-stop thing is meant as balance for hit and run, but then the ship would also need to consume energy for inertial brakes to achieve a full stop. Doesn't seem like the Androsynth way to me, they're pretty straightforward about "just break stuff". That and if this were to be implemented, a proposed counterbalance to this would be that it would take a little while for the Blazer to reach top speed.
-About playability and the proposed delay between Guardian/Blazer and X/Yform: What's that got to do with playability? It'd take like half a second, and it'd be some eye candy. Sheesh.
-About Blazer being a comet: I never said it _was_ a comet. Besides which, I don't know of any type of fire that doesn't produce extremely hot gasses after it's burned in/through an area. It wouldn't be much for damage, but it's real. A vapor trail, if you will. Wink
About laser weapons in the atmosphere: Yeah, I forgot to add that part. Thanks for sticking it in. Smiley Like I said before, not enough sleep behind the keyboard last time.

Well, that's my defense. Glad this bit was constructive rather than Deep_structive-er-destructive. Angry
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2003, 03:13:48 am »

Jiffa: Necro is right. Sylandro controls don't turn the ship left and right, they turn it counterclockwise and clockwise, respectively. That's how its always been.

I too shall add to the list. Don't be a jerk. Or a worm, or a baby, or a loser. Check your sources before you go opening your mouth (technically: typing a post) and making a fool of yourself.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2003, 08:49:06 am by sageallen » Logged
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Re: UQM 'Frenzy' Fork: Melee ideas
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2003, 08:34:23 am »

Thank you, Sage, for that clarification.

OK, now it's my turn to be an idiot.

I downloaded the Frenzy mod and extracted it directly to UQM (I figured this was the right thing to do as it has all the shipfiles, etc as well as adding the new ones.) My problem is it loads, mentions something about a fatal error (I can't ever catch the whole thing, the screen pops up and out too fast) and doesn't work. I don't know if there has been some explanation of repairs somewhere else, and if there has, please direct me to it.
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