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Author Topic: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future  (Read 7368 times)
Lukipela
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Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« on: November 10, 2003, 11:14:59 pm »

 Ok, I'm going to give this place an injection if nothing else, to stop people from complaining that it's dying rather than simply sleeping. This will be achieved through the creation of a few new topics, all more or less connected to the SC universe. I expect every member of this Forum to post in my new and shiny forums. If you do not, then I will hunt you down with my shiny Synth ship and bubble you. Some of these topics have been discussed before on this board, however, some may not have been. anyone who feels that i'm simply resurrecting a dead topic is free to say so, but this is for new people as well as old, and we haven't all been here since the beginning you know : Now then, on to the topics:

Ur-Quan : The future

What will become of our favourite caterpillars? We all know they aren't native to our region of space, but do we know if they have a homeworrld? Are they just a roving fleet, leaving slaveshields or death in their wake? Or have they got a huge imperium behind them, that will now either fall to internal strife, or break the Alliance back once and for all? Will the greenies and blackies stay and make their peace here, or will they leave to start iover? Will they be allowed to leave? Will they be allowed to live? Or will the Alliance first act in victory be the Xenocide of it's most hated enemy?
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Gill_Bates
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2003, 11:44:07 pm »

The greens, seeing their greatest weapon destroyed would help the New Alliance to remove the threat of the blacks.
The blacks (Kohr Ah) who are stronger will be a menace in the region for a long time after the destruction of the Sa-Matra.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2003, 11:50:45 pm »

Yes, I agree. The ur-quan will find another way to survive and not being slaved again. They won't stick with their way "no we are right there is no other way!" like the koar-ah will, who are crazy and will just start "kill frenzy!"("chop until you drop" is more accurate.. Grin).
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Lukipela
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2003, 11:57:52 pm »

But neither race is stupid, even though they are obsessed with their mission. Might they not simply withdraw and regroup?
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2003, 12:37:24 am »

The Kzer-Za are the practical ones. They have better social skills and seem to understand what is right or wrong (sort of). They might accept their defeat and help restrain their unruly brothers.
The Kohr-Ah seem more ritualistic and militaristic and will not stand down so easily.
I think the war will rage on uuntil the Kohr-Ah are either obliterated or suffer such defeat that they cannot deny their losing of the war. Then, they are not above commiting some mass suicide to avoid becoming slaves again.
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Lukipela
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2003, 12:44:14 am »

Perhaps. But even though the Kohr-Ah are ritualistic and militaristic, they won a very large amount of battles during the last 20 millenia. I'd say they are pretty sound military thinkers. So what is to stop them from retreating back the way they came? Lots of worlds that have already been cleansed, meaning no resistance and possibly some leftover minerals to rebuild their fleet...And sooner or later they could return once more.

Going for more practical Kzer-Za, if they feel that they need retreat, what's to stop them from throwing a thousand fallow races at us, to keep themselves covered during retreat. the end of SC2 never states that any fleet was destroyed, only that they wetre mopped up by the Alliance. Not necessarily completely defeated.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2003, 12:52:40 am »

This depends on how you view SC3, I suspect... personally, I'd prefer not to, because if it is, the implication is that the Ur-Quan will all pick the "Path of Now and Forever" even though they're doomed to failure.  On the other hand, the Kohr-Ah fleet, according to SC3, was already handled by alliance forces by the time hyperspace broke down.  

Now, if SC3 isn't canon...

The alliance would undoubtedly help the Ur-Quan take out the Kohr-Ah, whether the Ur-Quan liked it or not.  Once that was done, the alliance would then deal with a much weaker Ur-Quan Hierarchy (no more Spathi, no more Androsynth, weakened Mycon, VUX without Admiral Zex, recovering Umgah, no more Ilwrath, no more Thraddash, and a large portion of the Ur-Quan fleet destroyed by Kohr-Ah forces) with a lot more friends and allies than before.  Since the alliance and the Hierarchy were pretty evenly matched originally, it's safe to say the new alliance would make short work of what's left of the Ur-Quan Hierarchy (though it could be argued that, even with all the new friends, most of them are rebuilding, which might buy the Ur-Quan some time... Chmmr just getting out of Procyon, Humans just leaving Earth, Shofixti just starting to breed again, the Yehat having just finished a brutal civil war, Syreen just beginning to rebuild their fleet, ZoqFot rebuilding, Utwig & Supox rebuilding their fleets, etc.).  

Assuming an eventual NAFS victory over the remains of the Hierarchy forces, the NAFS probably wouldn't exterminate them or enslave them, which would lead to a philosophical problem for the Kzer-Za.  If foreign life won't hurt them, and the Kzer-Za don't have the capability to hurt the foreign life, what do they do?  I think, in time, the Ur-Quan would be welcomed back in and it'd be something of a Sentient Mileu Redux, with the Ur-Quan sort of heading off in their own direction with NAFS guidance and observation.  

That been said...

Because of the nature of the NAFS and the remains of the Hierarchy, SC3 (Version 2) could very easily be a remake of SC1 with a different twist.  On the one hand, you'd have the remains of the Hierarchy, with a sizeable portion of its fleet intact.  The Mycon are still probably better off than they used to be.  The VUX weren't really phased by SC2, except with the death of Zex, and I'm sure the VUX were studying his moves (like everyone else) for quite some time.  The Umgah are still around.  The Spathi could be compelled to fight for the Hierarchy again.  

Meanwhile, the NAFS is a different story.  Though there are an abundance of races in the NAFS, there isn't an abundance of ships initially.  The Chmmr are just getting off the ground.  The Yehat just got through a civil war, etc. etc. etc.  Not only that, but two allies with some serious strength left in them (the Utwig and the Supox) are clear across the galaxy from the rest of Ur-Quan space and are severly weakened from their efforts against the Kohr-Ah.  Also, most NAFS forces would be dedicated towards dealing with the Kohr-Ah forces first and then turning their attention towards the Kzer-Za.  Therefore, the position of the NAFS by the end of the Kohr-Ah menace would be very dependent on time.  If they defeat the Kohr-Ah quickly, they won't have the time to set up much logistical support for the kind of long-term military operations still required against the Kzer-Za.  On the other hand, if they don't defeat the Kohr-Ah quickly, the Kohr-Ah will finish the Kzer-Za and basically force the NAFS hand.  This would actually lead to some excellent strategy; how fast can you build up the NAFS, and can you get it done before the Kohr-Ah kill all sentient life or before the Hierarchy finishes you?  Heck, after the destruction of the Sa-Matra, the Ur-Quan might order their battle thralls to take out the races of the NAFS, which would leave the Yehat in the interesting position of facing VUX and Mycon forces almost single-handedly while aiding the NAFS against the Kohr-Ah.

Of course, there's always the Orz, who might help against the VUX, but who knows how many resources the Orz have, much less how many they can commit?  Also, with the disappearance of the Androsynth, it's entirely possible that the NAFS in SC3 (Version 2) might have as dim of a view of the Orz as they did in the real SC3.  

Either way, the Ur-Quan do have a chance... but they'd have to be very quick about it.  If any of you have ever played Axis & Allies before, that'd pretty much be the style of game that would develop (i.e. a militarily superior Axis vs. a logistically superior Allied group who could play a game of attrition if they can hold on that long).  

Just some food for thought.
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Lukipela
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2003, 01:05:53 am »

Excellent. Absolutely excellent. this was actually what I was hoping for posting thiese threads. People who write long answers, examining the different alternatives available, and presenting different solutions. Thank you Oatworm, you have very much made my day!

Now, to replying...

Firstly, I disagree with you on the situation at the end of the war. You seem to indicate that you believe that the Kohr-Ah would continue to battle the Kzer-Za, meaning that NAFS would have to intervene quickly to stop them, or risk the extermination of the Kzer-Za. Two problems with this.

1. The Kohr-Ah  were never going to exterminate the Kzer-Za, just defeat them in battle. If you lose the game, the Ur-Quan will still be around, they will only have given over the Sa-Matra, which leads me to

2. The Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za were fighting a ritual battle, trying to determine which doctrine was better. the prize was the Sa-Matra. With the Sa-Matra being blown to pices by filth, I doubt the Kohr-Ah would continue their ritual battle. More likely they would turn their focus to the filth that had now become a threat.

So the Kohr-Ah would prrobably charge head on. After the Initial confusion, their fleet is still the strongest in the Quadrant. This would give the Kzer-Za plenty of time to retreat, and regroup. they might even have time to reconquer a few old Thralls. Or they might fall back to outside the Quadrant and pick up a few of their other Thralls (assuming they have such), or just rebuild.

Any way you turn it, the both Quans have way more firepower than the NAFS. Both would probably be able to blast their way out of the Quadrant taking only superficial losses. As you say, NAFS doesn't really have that much firepower, and after the initial confusion they may well find themselves outgunned.

The largest threat would be the Quans uniting, to take out the sacrilegous Ba****** who blew up their trophy, cleansing the Quadrant, and then moving on in different directions.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 01:07:03 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Death 999
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2003, 01:08:52 am »

What do you mean about the Kohr-Ah finishing the Ur-Quan?? The Kzer-Za have stepped aside, their policy defeated. The Kohr-Ah have no reason to fight them.
After the destruction of the Sa-Matra, well, there are several possibilities as to the new Kohr-Ah Kzer-Za relationship. I do not think that 'finishing them off' is one of them.

Of course, this all really depends on what we accept in our canon as to the timing of the destruction of the Sa-matra... was it after the war was ended? Was it in the last days of the war? Was it when the Kzer-Za still seemed to have a chance?

(edit for clarity)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 01:09:13 am by Death_999 » Logged
Lukipela
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2003, 01:47:21 am »

I'd go with canon being right before the Kzer-Za lose, but that's just my opinion. soemhow i feel that afetr they lose would defeat the story of the next game...
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2003, 03:03:45 am »

Death_999's a little biased in his timeline.   Wink
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2003, 07:43:49 am »

Well, the kzer-za are going to be in bad shape, any way you tally it up.  Socially, their doctrine is now a proven failure - slave shielding all those races failed to stop those races from being a very real and tangible threat, as is evidenced by those races rising up from under the slave shields and blowing up the sa-matra.  Depending on the timeline you use, it's quite possibly got another swift kick from being defeated in ritual combat.

Their fleet won't be in much better shape either, having lost 1/3 of it when the showfixti pulled their ultimate blaze of glory, and likely having suffered even more ravages between the ritual combat and the attack of the chmmr after the destruction of the sa-matra.  Retreat seems reasonable, but which way to retreat? Most of their thralls are either just flat out in rebellion, or in shape almost as bad as they are.

What's worse, is that I can definitely see an Kzer-za civil war breaking out in the aftermath.  The Kzer-za would seem to have no choice but to acknowledge their doctrine's defeat.  Some will likely see this as proof of the truth of the eternal doctrine, and will desire to join the Kohr-Ah, while other's will likely just see it as a failure of both doctrines.  I imagine negotiation isn't their strong point, and it will become an issue.

As for the Kohr-ah...well, they're not in quite so chaotic shape.  The destruction of the sa-matra by kzer-za thrall's proves the flaw in the Kzer-za's doctrine, and possibly ritual conflict has proven this also.  They aren't likely to just give up, but after suffering sufficient wounds, a temporary retreat may be in order.  Likely the way they came from, which, iirc, would be from the general direction of Druuge space.  I would expect you guys can figure out what happens when a weakened, retreating kohr-ah fleet tries to pass through Druuge space.



At the very least, it gives you an interesting possible set up for a sequel.  The Kzer-za rememnants, likely driven back into the vacuum where the thraddash/ilwrath war used to be, the remnenants of their fleet in a civil war over what doctrine to take.  And the Kohr-Ah retreating through Druuge space, only to find the oppurtunistic Druuge attacking them at any chance, hoping to get something out of it.  
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2003, 09:37:28 pm »

As callously as the Druuge throw away the lives of their slaves, perhaps they would take up the Khor-Ah offer of killing all other sentient beings, including themselves?  They'd be lying of course, but since they throw their own people into furnaces, the Kohr-Ah might believe them.
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2003, 10:14:28 pm »

I suspect that the Kohr-Ah would fall back exactly the way they vame, passing over the Burvix homeworld again. The Chmmr would probably try to herd them away from the Utwig.

I suspect that the Ur-Quan would WISH to retreat together as a unit but be unable to achieve this due to political differences between them and NAFS strategy. This could be an aspect of the disarray which was referred-to in the epilogue.

This would mean that the philosophical quandaries would not be discussable between the two halves. They might come to very different conclusions.

What might be most interesting is if the split is not so much Kzer-Za vs. Kohr-Ah but just who happened to be caught on the northwest side of the galaxy versus who happened to be caught on the southeast side -- and both are evenly split by type.
Then the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah on the northwest and southeast quadrants might independently reach two pairs of conclusions as to what the proper course of action would be.
Not TWO conclusions, but FOUR.
Now THAT's confusion.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2003, 10:15:10 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2003, 03:58:21 am »

I'd say the Kzer-za are more reasonable and social then Kohr-Ah. There is a distinct sub-special difference that was caused by the trauma of their slavery. The Kohr-Ah would be unable to accept defeat, they would either deny the possibility outright or not care and die in their attempt to cleanse the overwhleming opposition. Personally I don't think Kohr-Ah are stupid and would expect them to remain a sort of permanant threat at the edge of NAFS terrirtory, using guerilla tactics on the other races. The Kzer-za would accept defeat and join the NAFS because they do not have the same kill or be killed mentatlity of the Kohr-ah, it would be difficult for them but they would see that they had no choice.

Of course if the rest of the Kzer-za's fleet is fine and still has a hoard of Thralls they may send them from elsewhere in the Galaxy to save their defeated forces near the Sa-Matra. This puts the NAFS in an interesting posistion of having many recovering races in a three way war against the Kohr-ah's weakened but still dangerous fleet and the newely reinforced Hierarchy fleet. I don't think the Sa-Matra's destruction will end the war between them. What was ritual combat may become outright war as each side blames the other for the Sa-Matra's loss and their defeat and the hands of lesser races.
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