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Topic: Ideas for "Ur-quan masters 2" engine (Read 20363 times)
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Dangerous
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Hiya
I think that the current engine would be perfect for continuing the story. I have serious doubts that the game would be improved if it was turned into something else, we all love it and the chief reasons are the playability and the immersive story.
We already know that the story isn't a problem, as Culture20 says, there are so many people with ideas for a plot, a group could easily be created to manage the story.
If the current engine is used there are obvious benefits; there is little investment needed (a new engine is going to cost) it will also take less time to create the next installment.
I think a "donation" system should also be put in place, this may be open source but the people involved with the project could do with some thanks!
Dave
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Smaug
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
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Using UQM as an engine for a sequel to SC2/UQM is an interesting idea.
However, as a programmer, I would like to point some things out.
I haven't looked at the UQM codebase, so I can't say anything for certain. That being said, I do not imagine that the UQM codebase is anything approaching what modern C/C++ programmers would consider "good code". Back when it was written, writing good code was far less important than performance or code size. As such, code was not written with the level of extensibility that modern code would expect.
The point I'm trying to make is that bending the UQM engine to fit a new game design, even if it is quite similar to UQM in gameplay, is a potentially difficult prospect.
Indeed, it is precisely that prospect that would lead me away from relying on the UQM codebase and instead turn to the Timewarp codebase. I know a lot of you do not like the state of TW, but it does have one significantly redeeming quality that UQM doesn't have: good coding practices. I'm not terribly familiar with TW's codebase, but I am aware of the ease of adding new ship types, or even game types.
Sure, there are some negatives with TW, primarily centering around the fact that it doesn't emulate SC2 well enough. However, now that we have the UQM codebase, we can study the physics system and port that code into TW. Since TW is a well-designed system, it is much easier to modify this physics code than it is to bend UQM into something else. Other discrepencies between TW and UQM can likewise be repaired.
Note that relying on the TW codebase does not require the use of any of their non-SC2 ships or game types. They can be removed just as easily as added.
I'm just suggesting that, given the avaliability of the UQM source, it would be easier to fix the problems in TW's code than it would to fix the programming difficulties of the UQM code.
As to questions of what ideas would be good for the UQM-2 engine, here are a few. Note that these mostly stem from gameplay ideas I had for a sequel.
One of the fundamental problems with a sequel to an adventure game is the potential lack of adventure. We've seen this part of the galaxy before; exploring it just isn't that interesting. As such, I would propose starting the game in an unknown region of space. This could be due to some Hyperspace malfunction with new Precurser-tech engines, or because the player is an alien that lives in this new region or whatever. Regardless of how it happens, the player starts in a new region of space.
Eventually, perhaps the player can traverse the distance to the UQM region of space, and start interacting with more familiar elements using new knowledge from the new region of space. This clearly requires imcreasing the map range.
Another gameplay enhancement would be to enhance the meaning of resource gathering. This also helps with plots. If the player is part of a government that isn't under a slave shield, resources for building his/her fleet should be quite plentiful. The idea of having RU doesn't make sense in this case.
However, what does make sense is for this government to not have a small fleet that is almost completely independent of the rest of the military. As such, your mission of exploration/diplomacy/etc must be "funded". That is, you must provide your government with a useful service. So, when you go out and explore systems, you collect valuable data on mineral-rich worlds, or possible worlds for colonization (life worlds with non-dangerous inhabitants). You "sell" this data back at your starbase(s), and by doing so, your CO can allocate additional resources to your venture. Essentially, you're providing an service to your government and getting a reward.
Also, as you tell your government about mineral-rich worlds, and as they begin to exploit them, your government/alliance's area of influence (AoI) begins to increase. So, the better you do, the more powerful your people become.
SC2 had a definate shift in focus as you played the game. At some point, you had "enough" minerals. Enough that you weren't concerned with adding modules to your ship. At which time, the impetus of exploration is now inter-species intercourse (in more ways than one  ) and finding life-words/rainbow worlds for Melnorme Credits. I found the later issue to be a problem. If you don't know where the rainbow worlds are, or what the pattern is, then you have no choice but to contine mining worlds, only this time for Biodata instead of minerals. If you do know where the rainbow worlds are, then this isn't a concern, as you can easily get all the credits you can handle.
Mining credits is much more annoying than mining minerals. That's because virtually every world has minerals; not every world has credits.
So, here's how I intend to correct this. Even with the ability to sell planet locations back to HQ in exchange for resources/goodwill/expanding the empire, the player should still be able to descend to a planet and gather minerals (I'm not sure if the whole biodata thing is a good idea in any case, but maybe it is. Maybe it can now be used to determine the suitability for colonization of a world). Gathering minerals himself helps add much needed funds to the player's coffers, even without finding a mineral-rich planet.
However, by the time the player has "enough" minerals, the player may still need to expand the empire or fund a war or two. So, I would like to institute a "system scan" that can be performed anywhere in-system.
A system scan can determine the following about each planet:
* Whether or not life is there.
* Whether or not some energy reading is there.
* What kind of world (Treasure, Pelucid, etc) it is.
* A "threat assessment". The likelyhood of losing crew down on the surface. Not an average of the temperature, weather and tectonics. As the player gets better drop pods, the threat assessment takes this into account.
This is enough to sell mineral world locations back to HQ, but not enough for colony world locations (must make sure that life is relatively tame). This lets the player get an overview of the system to make sure that there is even something worth his or her time there. Also, if the player just wants to beef up his government, then he doesn't need to actually go to each planet; a simple system scan is enough to deal with mineral worlds. So, when the player has reached the point where mineral gathering is a non-issue (or a mineral-shy sitation can be taken care of by dropping in on a super-giant star or two), he can use system scans to search for particular types of things (biodata, potential mines or colony worlds, etc) without wasting too much time. Also, energy readings can alert a player to a pre-space flight civilization that might be passed over.
It would be interesting for your people to go to war without moving their entire AoI. That is, they can split their AoI and send large fleets (represented by AoI's of their own) against an adversary. The difficulty, of course, is supply lines. How to make supply lines work... I have no idea. But a fleet AoI should be limitted in how far it can go.
As such, I think that combat simulation AI needs to be beefed up. For example, a fleet of 50 Androsynth can take on maybe 200 Earthlings. These kinds of stats should be representative of how these matchups work together. Since your government may be an alliance of worlds (and/or going up against an alliance), this battle simulation may need to take into account how heterogenous fleets could work together.
I also want to, somehow, bring the idea of "fortresses" or reinforced defenses back from SC1. I don't want the player building them, but I like the idea that fighting in a fortified enemy system puts you at a disadvantage. Maybe asteroids have point-defense lasers or something when you fight in an enemy fortified system. Fortresses should automatically exist in important systems in a species's main AoI (as opposed to fleet AoI's, which don't get fortresses). Say, important mining and possibly colony systems.
Note that all of this additional gameplay is exactly that: additional. It is not a replacement for exploration/diplomacy/etc. It is an augmentation. It lets you solve problems in different ways. Instead of convincing the Ilwrath to kill of the Thraddash, you can instead make an appeal to your government to send a task force to do it. It gives the player more choices. It, also, gives you something interesting to do in the mid-game (getting involved in wars, building up your government, etc) as you're starting to switch from resource collecting to other persuits.
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Jameson Conors
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Personally as far as anything goes with this...
I think that a UQM 2 should entail something regarding a plot for a Star Control IV to continue the story after the captain outsmarted the all omnipotent eternal ones.
Something with a good and gripping plot such as was existant in Star Control II, and at least a bit better than the at least acceptable story of Star Control III.
I found that the greatest aspects of SC2 was its story line, that it was so profound and well written. The gameplay was flawless which only added icing to the cake. It was a game that i was never bored with playing.
My suggestion would be to for gameplay to combine the best aspects that made Star Control II. Navigating between countless stars, and planets. But this time since you are not a renegade surrounded with enemies, make it something as well along the lines with SC3, where you can instead of using planet landers also place installations and command more fleets than just your command ships fleet.
An interface with a cross comination of SC2 and SC3 as well.. with expertly flowing and enjoyable music... Star Maps that not only display stars, but what is on them, provided they have been explored. The game could begin with the home systems of the New Alliance Races already established.
As far as a story could go... Imagine this hypothesis.
It has been 20 years since the climactic battle for survival at the galactic core. The League of Sentient Races now spanned both the Alpha Quadrant and the Kessari Quadrant.
Aside from occasional strife or criminal agents rising the known galaxy was at peace. Hyperspace was restored by the cleansed rainbow worlds and once again ships of all kinds careened through knwon space for all sorts of business.
The troubles began on unzervault the home world of "your father - The legendary captain" the ortogs living there began to be restless. even violent. Soon and strangely enough on many other worlds around the galaxy reports of these creatures becoming increasingly territorial and even violent towards the inhabitants of the worlds they inhabited.
There was no explanation for their behavior, (premise being, is that - the father that being the human captain had just died, perhaps a clip of a funeral service would be shown in the games introduction) until one day.
A league initiative was instated across its worlds that ortogs be exterminated as they had killed several people on several of their worlds. A division of League Troops was out hunting them on unzervault, their squad leader brought his weapon to bear, aimed... and the Ortog let out a whail... Mooo....ai... I.. am a precursor..
General Storyline Premise is that The Precursors have awaken from their long slumber as mindless cows. They had expected everyone else in the galaxy to be long dead from the eternal ones, however instead discovering that had not happened that a human discovered what eluded even them. It no longer meant that they were the masters of their home galaxy any longer. But more importantly their fear of anihilation was no abated forever.
To wind it up short, which i could elaborate on alot, in fact i could write the whole plot to this game which is entirely theoretical right now i believe.
The precursors return, in time they came to the conclusion that they must remaster their galaxy. The more they regained the memories of their ancestors, the more powerful they would become. The game would become a race against time to bring the precursors to their six knees, and humble them to function in this new galaxy. This game would entail prospects on a much wider scale than has been in any previous SC game. As the whole galaxy would become involved in this..
The remnants of the Hegemonic Crux, still upset from their dramatic defeat fighting the precursors on one end of the galaxy. The League fighting them on the other. The crux seek to beat them into being their subordinates, and are making headway to it. The league seek only to show them that there is another way. But the unfortunate part is, the first "empire" that first unlocks the secret location of the precursors ancient homeworld.. Victory will have been achieved by them.. It is a race to beat the crux there. If they beat you there... You cant stand against them and the precursors... together they would make a fleet so powerful none could stand against them. Winning the game = beating the precursors at their homeworld and when their leader speaks to you. If the right things are said... you win.
And no, the chmrr would not be bifurcated again, but you may have to deal with kohr-ah mauraders again.. and cowardly spathi blowing in whatever direction the wind goes..
This game would include ALL races of every game.
That means Every one of those Juicy Ships duking it out.
Now whats everyones Opinion about that???
Email me at Ancient_Hawk@msn.com if you seriously think it is a good idea.
Just an idea, i have written three novellas over the last 4 years. Sadly none of them were published =(
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Culture20
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You might try posting your plot ideas in the "plot ideas for a sequal" thread:http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1072856834, but I bet it will meet resistance there; many people here are not too appreciative of SC3 (I personally consider it heresy). One change I'd make before posting it there though: The Captain appears as an old man (well past the time you place as his death) at the end of SC2.
Plot should only rear its ugly head in this thread if it affects the nature of the engine.
As far as the engine ideas you posted: How would the player control multiple fleets? Would he give orders over via hyperspace broadcast, and not visibly see the results, or would it be more of a RTS type format?
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KarmaComa
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Here are my humble ideas...
Keep the melee engine, but have cartoony 3-d models... cel shading is a good idea.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but you know what would be REALLY COOL? Multi-team melee battles! Maybe it would be Risk-style with 2 dice, like, if you had at least two ships you could use two, otherwise you might face 2-on-1... in mission mode, you could battle the computer with a friend or with a computer drone. If you limit the total number of ships to 4, you don't run into any rendering problems, you can actually control your whole team with one friend, you get to fight side-by-side, and people will get into figuring out kick-ass teams!
Phew. Ok, I'm really into that idea. I don't know anything about the AI, but it probably wouldn't be TOO bad to go to 2v2.
Onto something else: mouse support. Do we really need to wait for UQM2? Other than smoothing out the turning so you're not limited to 16 angles, melee should stay very similar to its current form.
I also think that there should be a bigger economic market system, black markets, special items that you can only buy in certain areas, and MORE SHIP UPGRADES! I think the key to having a good game that's so simple, engine-wise, is to have a really really good story and lots of deep details.
I think a few more ships would be good, too, but not a ton. OTOH, there could be lots of races interacting in different ways. I like the idea of having to start a rebel faction against an Alliance that's out of control.
2d maps should stay, basically. A constant-zoom thing would be good for traversing solar systems, or even a manual zoom.
Comments?
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Chrispy
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the ship upgrades should be made by the race to which the ship applies. Not by the precursers.
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Culture20
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Then that race would apply those upgrades to every ship like in SC3 (a bad idea in my opinion). Having the upgrades be of Precursor origin (as in SC1) makes them 1-use items that seem special.
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Chrispy
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maybe you have to do special mining quests to get them or something. I dont like the idea of being able to impletement technology from god knows how far back.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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You're not implementing it; you're ripping off a working instance.
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FalconMWC
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I think that if you are " you're ripping off a working instance." then it should apply for all ships. For instance in SC3 you could get a upgrade for spathi ships. To me it seems like the precursors were to busy trying to save themselves to make a arifact for a race that will come much later in time. If the game were to have upgrades, my personal .02 is that you should have two kinds. One for the precursor vessel. One for all axiliary ships. To me it makes more sense. anyway just my .02
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Chrispy
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something kinda strange is that human technology, can link directly with the vindicater.
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FalconMWC
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Maybe the Vinacator is made up of two separte systems (with the exception of the power plant) one precursor and one human? - I don't know - but that is my best guess.
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Culture20
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Falcon, "ripping off a working instance" does not mean copying as in "ripping a CD". He means you literall remove the unique, non-reproducable tech from a mostly destroyed ship's hull (or in most cases, find it in a Precursor Storage Cubby) and install it in your ship. This sounds strange until you realize that Precursor Tech was all designed with this modularity in mind.
Examples:
* All of the precursor modules from SC1 which would bond with any races' ships. The artifacts themselves did the merging with the (in their view) outdated technology (backwards compatability).
* The Precursor tech that was merged with the starbases' fabricator systems. (I suspect that the Starbase staff did very little; the tech merged itself)
* Earthling, Arilou, and Melnorme/other technologies (emergency warp escape device, portal spawner, many modules - none of which the melnorme said were of precursor origin) which worked perfectly with the Mark I. In this case, the Mark I did the actual merging.
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FalconMWC
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So what you and Death_999 are saying is that the precursor tech adapted to the human/Arilou/Melnorme tech. Also that the Precursors did that so their OWN tech would work, however it proved a added benifit to us. Ok - I think I see what you mean.
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« Last Edit: January 23, 2004, 07:26:13 pm by FalconMWC »
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Deep Jiffa Owns j00!