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Author Topic: Question about the Chmmr  (Read 9325 times)
FalconMWC
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Question about the Chmmr
« on: December 01, 2003, 06:08:03 pm »

I think I am seeing a plot hole, but I want to double-check. Anyway here goes!!!          

When you reach the Chmmr star base you get this report

---- REPORT FROM ORBIT ----

WE HAVE EXPLORED THE INTERIOR OF
THE STARBASE AND FOUND IT
ABANDONED.

COMPUTER RECORDS SHOW THAT THE
UR-QUAN PUT THE STARBASE IN ORBIT
AROUND THIS WORLD AFTER DEFEATING
THE CHENJESU AND MMRNMHRM.
FROM WHAT WE CAN DETERMINE, THE
CHENJESU AND MMRNMHRM WHO WERE
ASSIGNED TO THIS BASE SET UP
MINDLESS ROBOTS TO RUN THE
STATION, AND THEN SOMEHOW RETURNED
TO THE SURFACE OF THEIR PLANET,
PENETRATING THE SLAVE SHIELD!

FURTHER ANALYSIS OF THE STARBASE'S
DATABANKS SHOW THAT THE CHENJESU
AND MMRNMHRM WERE EXPLORING
SYNTHESIS SCHEMES TO CREATE A
HYBRID RACE, HALF MMRNMHRM AND
HALF CHENJESU.

THE ROBOTS WHO RUN THIS STARBASE
ARE ARMED AND WILL NOT PERMIT US
TO SCAVENGE MATERIALS, SO WE ARE
RETURNING TO THE SHIP.

 ---- END OF TRANSMISSION ----

Now according to Commander Hayes the Star bases were to repair and refuel the Ur-Quan ships and Ur-quan allies. Now here is were I have the problem.  If an Ur-quan dreadnought or Ur-quan ally came to the star base (Which is very probable considering they had many “allies”) they would come to the same report as this one. (Apparently when the Chenjesu and Mmrnhrm they left many traces about would they were doing on the planet below.) The Ur-quan would find out about it and would probably stop the war temporarily because the Chmmr are now a threat. When you think about it the Chmmr are a VERY large threat, considering the fact that they are making a hybrid race AND can penetrate the slave shield. So it just seems weird that the Chenjesu and the Mmrnhrm would leave so much behind that would give hints to you. (And Ur-Quan dreadnoughts as well)

So is there a logical explanation for this all? If so then post away!    

(O-and-by-the-way) I think that this game is the best. It took be a while but I finally beat without the walkthroughs and now can beat it with my personal record of spring 2157.  
 
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2003, 09:09:50 pm »

I don't think the Kzer-Za would stop a Doctrinal Conflict with their genetic twins to deal with some slaves that all went to their planet. If they needed to refuel, the robots would do it.
If anything, they'd speed their war to finish off the Kohr-Ah, then deal with the problem.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2003, 09:21:26 pm »

The Ur-Quan should've known or suspected that the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were trying to make a hybrid. Why else would they have requested being slave-shielded together? To keep each other company? I think the Ur-Quan were not unaware of their schemes.

Penetrating the slave shield is a concern though, and I'm sure the Ur-Quan would be worried if they found out about it. However the war not only assured that the Ur-Quan wouldn't find out about it, but also meant that the Ur-Quan probably wouldn't care for the moment as they had bigger issues on their hand-equivalents. Even more so when it appears that the Chenjesu-Mmrnmhrm are more interested in staying on the planet then off it.

So in conclusion, I think the Ur-Quan might've done something about the slave-shield penetration if they had discovered it and not been fighting a war, but as it was they didn't know and didn't care.
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guesst
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2003, 09:39:40 pm »

The synthesis is not a problem for the Ur-Quan. Assuming they found out about it, and were aware of their intent, you're forgetting one thing. It was to take umpteen hundred years to complete the synthesis. The Ur-Quan just plain didn't feel threatened by a race that would re-emerge long after the current doctrinal wars were complete.

"Destroy the Chenjesu / Mmrnmhrm love child" was probably on their to-do list for AFTER the war.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2003, 09:54:32 pm »

You guys brought up some very valid points,but I personally think that that theory has holes in it.

1. How do the Ur-Quan know that the two races combining together will take that long - and how do they know that someone won't use a sun device?

2. How do the Ur-Quan know that the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm won't send a few of them OUT of the slave shield and gather info on the doctrinal war. Thus when the few scouts find out the result they free the Earthlings, Syreen and all the races that are shielded.  If you look at the 3do vidoe then you know that the earthings were ready to fight. Warships were taking off the second the shield was down and I am sure other races were like that. (ok maybe not the Spathi!!!)

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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2003, 10:35:33 pm »

The Chenjesu and MmrnMhrm didn't know that the Ur-Quan were going to be in a doctrinal conflict, so this needs to be taken into account to show their thought processes.

It's possible that the robots mimic MmrnMhrm to a high degree, and that they would do the work of refuelling.  Also, knowing that the Ur-Quan dislike talking with other sentient species, they wouldn't have to make the robots able to talk.  The biggest problems lie with the Ilwrath who were supposed to guard procyon.  The Ilwrath ended up leaving for the Pkunk sphere, but there was no gaurantee that they wouldn't check up on the starbase some day.  Maybe the Ilwrath also refrain from speaking with sentient species when they aren't allowed to murder them?

The worst part of the Chenjesu/MmrnMhrm plan was that the Ur-Quan restocked the Earth station with new crewmembers when they resupplied it (every five years).  If the Ur-Quan do this on a cycle based upon the life expectancy of the fallow race, then it _might_ have been longer than the 55 or 35 years needed for the process, but not likely.

So, the Chenjesu/MmrnMhrm were either poor tactical planners, they knew that they wouldn't be discovered, or it's a bonafied plot-hole.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2003, 11:05:52 pm »

Regarding the Ilwrath, I think it might be likely that the Chenjesu thought they weren't a threat. I mean, the Ilwrath only interact with other races to destroy them, they are hardly going to drop in on a social call. Look at how poorly they fared in our solar system. It is possible that some particulary bright Chenjesu pscychologist profiled the Ilwrath, classing them as non-threatening to the plan.

As for the refueling, as C-20 mentioned the Quan stocked the human base every five years, presumably removing the oldest people, and sending up freshmen (I doubt they emptied the whole bloody thing every five years...). But the M:bots don't, as far as we know, age, and the Chenjesu are chrystalline and may age veeery slowly. So it is plausible that they wouldn't have to restock the place for a long time.

Or there could have been a group of volunteers, who travelled back up to the base every time they knew the Quan were scheduled to arrive. I doubt the Quan woudl pay much attention if the Chenjesu or M:bots changed a bit in appearance over the years..

Of course, this relies on the Chhmr actually being able to move when halfway through the process...
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2003, 12:01:27 am »

Considering the motion of that elevator thingy when you broadcast through the shield, it is quite plausible that they can move.

I do support the idea that they would rely on the robots for refueling the dreads -- UQ would probably send in a fuel requisition code, robots would reply, perhaps with a mmrnmhrm face on the comm signal, and send out the fuel pods. UQ leave.

If they wanted to talk to someone different, they would probably do it via comm. In that case, the name of the game is digital signal processing. Make up a simulation of a Chenjesu or Mmrnmhrm for the visual. For robots and crystals it's probably a lot easier than for humans, what with our soft parts and textures.

The chances that the UQ would actually board seem very small indeed.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2003, 12:14:59 am »

It could be that the chmmr looked for loop holes in the slave agreement. Correct me if I am wrong but they could have decided to fulfill the agreement only adhering to the agreement.
The slave agreement is VERY simple.

Stay in the slave shield.
Keep the star base operational.

I have not seen any rule against going back to the slave shielded planet or making a hybrid species. So, the species that make up the chmmr, with their logic most likely thought it was acceptable. They also kept the base running with the "mindless" robots. Also since they knew the Ur-Quan did not want to wipe them out they could say it would kill them if they try to put them back on the starbase.

BTW
The chmmr aren’t all that powerful.  I have been able to kill 2 chmmr avatars with a pkunk fury. It is rather difficult but it is doable. You haft to do a whole lot of strafing runs to kill off the butterflies then the ship is a sitting duck. The avatars point defense goes for the closest object and if you do that right it will always be the bullets you fire.  Grin

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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2003, 04:55:31 am »

Quote
It could be that the chmmr looked for loop holes in the slave agreement. Correct me if I am wrong but they could have decided to fulfill the agreement only adhering to the agreement.
The slave agreement is VERY simple.

Stay in the slave shield.
Keep the star base operational.

I have not seen any rule against going back to the slave shielded planet or making a hybrid species. So, the species that make up the chmmr, with their logic most likely thought it was acceptable. They also kept the base running with the "mindless" robots. Also since they knew the Ur-Quan did not want to wipe them out they could say it would kill them if they try to put them back on the starbase.



So where did you find that simple slave agreement? I'll agree that I haven't seen any rules against making a hybrid species under the shield, but then again I don't think that means very much as I have not seen ANY rules at all. If perchance you are in possession of a document entitled "Ur-Quan slave laws - A binding contract" please feel free to post it Wink
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 04:59:04 am »

I got it from the hours i spent playing the game.

basicly i got the "keep the starbase in shape" from the first conversations you have with the starbase commander. And the "stay under the slave shield" I got from the many conversations i had with ur-qaun ships before i killed them.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 04:59:41 am by BioSlayer » Logged

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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 05:05:05 am »

I found it. it was in the "limited release" verson  of the original game. a very rare version only one in existance and i have it.
here are the slave laws from that version.


-------------------------------------------------------

Ur-Quan slave laws - A binding contract

Stay in the slave shield.
Keep the star base operational.

Ur-Quan Lord ______________

SlaveRace Name____________
SlaveRace Leader___________
SlaveRace E-mail___________

« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 05:05:27 am by BioSlayer » Logged

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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2003, 05:15:18 am »

Touche.  Grin
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2003, 05:27:23 am »

Kings to you Lukipela

(reference to "count of monty cristo")
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2003, 06:56:17 am »

Even if they are obeying the slave laws through a technicality, I think the fact that they were capable of breaching the shield would be enough for the Ur-Quan to be worried.  The Chenjesu will have realized this.  

Here's what bioslayer was talking about:
Quote
To begin with, what is the purpose of this starbase?
Ur-Quan slave law requires that we maintain an orbital space platform
to assist Hierarchy vessels which are in need of repairs or fuel.
Since the shield around Earth cuts us off completely from the planet
we are dependent on Ur-Quan resupply ships for our non-renewable resources.
The resupply vessels are supposed to arrive every five years
at which time the Ur-Quan somehow penetrate the shield and exchange those of us up here
with replacement personnel from the surface.
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