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Author Topic: Question about the Chmmr  (Read 9398 times)
AnonomouSpathi
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2003, 07:37:15 am »

In all probability, the ilwrath would've noticed the whole 'hey, look, they're aren't any chenjesu or mrmnhrmn on this starbase!'.  They do, afterall, seem to be quite capable of sensing you when you fly in.

But lets assume they went to the starbase, and found it deserted.  What can they do?  It's not like they know how to get through a slaveshield, so going down there isn't happening.  Blowing up an abandoned starbase isn't going to impress anyone.  So, they could go and tell the ur-quan.  But if that happens, the ur-quan might go and look around, and have no very not nice things to say about how the ilwrath have been handling their duties.  The whole 'we were off murdering birdies instead of guarding these starbases like you told us to' likely won't go over to well.  So why disturb the status quo?


As for the ur-quan themselves - well, even if they knew, they aren't going to drop everything and go blow up the planet.  If anything, the ur-quan show clearly that everything else is second priority to the doctrinal wars.  The thraddash attack, and instead of going to the thraddash homeworld, which is practically next door, they just shoot any of them who interfere.  None of the thralls seem to have any supervision whatsoever.  Heck, even when a human shows up, outside the slave shield in direct violation of the oath of fealty, in a precursor battleship no less, often with a fleet of support vessels, and then begins to blow up every 'quan he find, they STILL don't take time off to go check on the humans.  Heck, they don't move even if the human has a dynarri on the ship, which is like the ur-quan equivalent of satan himself.

To be blunt, if repeated, vicious attacks by a human commanding a fleet of ships built by their own slaves, on board a precursor ship outfitted for combat, and carrying the greatest evil the universe has ever known isn't enough to make the ur-quan take a day off, an abandoned starbase probably ain't gonna make their to do list.

Quick edit:

Just got to remember, it's a question of priorities.  If you've ever spoke with a kzer-za after the doctrinal wars end, you know that they really, really don't want to see every race in the universe slaughtered.  Letting the chmmr merge and break the shield would be a failure of their place as great stewards of the universe.  Letting every race get slaughtered by the kohr-ah because they lost the war would be a much, much greater failure.  Risking a smaller failure to focus on preventing the greatest failure possible isn't such bad tactical thinking.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 07:47:07 am by AnonomouSpathi » Logged
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2003, 01:35:36 pm »

Quote
You guys brought up some very valid points,but I personally think that that theory has holes in it.

1. How do the Ur-Quan know that the two races combining together will take that long - and how do they know that someone won't use a sun device?

2. How do the Ur-Quan know that the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm won't send a few of them OUT of the slave shield and gather info on the doctrinal war. Thus when the few scouts find out the result they free the Earthlings, Syreen and all the races that are shielded.  If you look at the 3do vidoe then you know that the earthings were ready to fight. Warships were taking off the second the shield was down and I am sure other races were like that. (ok maybe not the Spathi!!!)



Consider this:

1. The Ur-Quan were too powerful to be stopped when they had the Sa-Matra. That is reason enough for them not to care.

2. They were busy with the Doctrinal Conflict (which also might mean they did not check the starbase regularly).

3. The Ur-Quan would unlikely care that some race went from a starbase to their planet. That doesn't necessarily mean they can come out again.

4. There is little reason for the Ur-Quan to be interested in the Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm experiment to make a hybrid race.

What makes you think the Ur-Quan knew of the Sun Device or even could have imagined it could be used in fusing two races together?
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2003, 04:08:31 pm »

Third term in the slave agreement was that the enslaved race is not allowed to have spaceships. The Ilwrath captain that enters Sol once you've investigated the moonbase says that this is 'in direct violation of the Oath of Fealty', I think.

Quote
They were busy with the Doctrinal Conflict (which also might mean they did not check the starbase regularly).

They probably negletted the mainteinance of all starbases, judging by the condition of Earth's, and there's nothing to suggest that they would have bothered to check on them otherwise (on a second thought, did they maintain the Syreen starbase? That is near enought to them that they could have done that, as opposed to the Earthling and Chenjesu/Mrhrwhatever starbases that were on the other side of the quadrand).

Quote
The Ur-Quan would unlikely care that some race went from a starbase to their planet. That doesn't necessarily mean they can come out again.

Not necessarily, but if I were the Ur-Quan, I'd check to make sure. The slave shields were supposed to be unpenetratable without Ur-Quan level tech (then again, the Spathi managed to slave shield themselves, so...).

I feel that points 1 and 4 are valid, and that the Ur-Quan most likely didn't know about the sun device.

I find myself agreeing also with AnonomouSpathi's points.

Also, I haven't talked to the Chmmr myself (got bored of the normal game mode before getting to that point, and I know most of the plot anyways since I've done a lot of reading in the forums), but did they indeed know of the Doctrinal Conflict?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 04:17:23 pm by JSB » Logged
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2003, 04:20:13 pm »

Hey! Spathi are smart! They got from bronze age to "today" only in 3 centuries! (or something like that...), bad example to deny the shield point.
Other than that, did you forget something? The ur-quan don't want to anihilate other races unless nessecery to do so. When they will think that the chmmr will be a threat, they will. The only race they would fear of, is the Utwig. They have the bomb. Hmm wait, the bomb wasn't strong enough to destroy the sa-matra until the chmmr put some crystal-tech there. But what are the odds that the bomb from one side of the quardent will get to the other?
(sorry for my bad english, I am kind of sleepy right now)
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2003, 04:45:23 pm »

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Hey! Spathi are smart! They got from bronze age to "today" only in 3 centuries! (or something like that...), bad example to deny the shield point.

I don't deny the spathi are smart. I just don't think they are advanced enought to understand really complex Ur-Quan tech. And they figure out how to create slave shields in a couple of years by studying the Earth's shield, and the Chenjesu/Mrhrhwhatever could penetrate them after a similar amount of time (presumably). Now that I think of it, the shields must be low-tech by Ur-Quan standards. With their hundreds of thousands of years of spacefaring, they should be able to make something that is harder to figure out...

As for your other point, I don't think the Kzer-Za thought anyone in the quadrand as a much of a threath expect the Kohr-Ah, to which they were hopelessly outnumbered after the costly Alliance-Hierarchy war (and did the Kzer-Za know of the Utwig/Supox? I remember that they had encountered only Kohr-Ah vessels, not the Kzer-Za).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 05:00:25 pm by JSB » Logged
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2003, 07:29:49 pm »

Well, the Spathi are clearly smart enough to duplicate a slave shield, because they DO duplicate one.

Arguing to the contrary is like saying, "There is no conceivable power source strong enough that it could power the Death Star's superlaser, therefore the Death Star's superlaser can't fire." despite that we see such a thing happen in the movie (note, someone I know in a different forum made this argument).

As far as space ships and the slave shield agreement:
Suppose it was just being off-planet that was a violation. Not having a space ship.

It does seem that the Ur-Quan confiscated the syreen ships, but confiscating the military hardware is not exactly the same as saying you aren't allowed to have vehicles capable of traversing space... as long as you don't actually use them to traverse space.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2003, 09:13:11 pm »

IT does seem that slave shielded races are not allowed to have ships except for maybe small shuttles ( Landers ) that cant go from planet to planet. otherwise earths starbase would not have needed radioactives.  

Now here is a few other possible plot holes.
If they are not allowed to have ships why are the star bases able to make them?
and why can earths starbase be able to make ships when the syreens apparently cant?
and why didnt the earths starbase make a ship to go get the radioactives themselves?
and why would anyone be willing to join into alliance with a group named the empire of BioSlayer?
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2003, 09:33:47 pm »

Quote
As for the ur-quan themselves - well, even if they knew, they aren't going to drop everything and go blow up the planet.  If anything, the ur-quan show clearly that everything else is second priority to the doctrinal wars.  The thraddash attack, and instead of going to the thraddash homeworld, which is practically next door, they just shoot any of them who interfere.  None of the thralls seem to have any supervision whatsoever.  Heck, even when a human shows up, outside the slave shield in direct violation of the oath of fealty, in a precursor battleship no less, often with a fleet of support vessels, and then begins to blow up every 'quan he find, they STILL don't take time off to go check on the humans.  Heck, they don't move even if the human has a dynarri on the ship, which is like the ur-quan equivalent of satan himself.

To be blunt, if repeated, vicious attacks by a human commanding a fleet of ships built by their own slaves, on board a precursor ship outfitted for combat, and carrying the greatest evil the universe has ever known isn't enough to make the ur-quan take a day off, an abandoned starbase probably ain't gonna make their to do list.


That explains why the Ur-Quan don't notice or care, but it's not the most important issue.  Unless the Ur-Quan told the Chenjesu that they should remain on the planet "because our genocidal bretheren are coming, and we won't be able to watch you for about 24 years.", then they should have expected the Ur-Quan to make regular checkups.  
That reminds me: the 2nd Doctrinal war must have started sometime between 3 and 8 years before the start of SC2 (the Earth station had been getting regular resupplies until 8 years ago).  That means that the Chenjesu somehow fooled the Ur-Quan for at least 12 years before the Kohr-Ah showed up.  Anyone willing to make an SC2 timeline so we can sort things like this out?
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2003, 09:46:06 pm »

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If they are not allowed to have ships why are the star bases able to make them?
Hayes: Ur-Quan slave law requires that we maintain an orbital space platform
to assist Hierarchy vessels which are in need of repairs or fuel.

Quote
and why can earths starbase be able to make ships when the syreens apparently cant?
<sexist pig>Chicks can't build starships</sexist pig> Roll Eyes  Really?  Umm  Maybe every races' oath of fealty is different, and the Ur-Quan were willing to let the Syreen have a Spacestation just for fun, but it didn't have to do any refueling or repairing of hierarchy ships.  More likely:  It can, but Earth is a better strategic point to amass a force.  Beatlgeuse is a little too close to the Ur-Quan sphere.

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and why didnt the earths starbase make a ship to go get the radioactives themselves?
They thought that the moonbase was still inhabited, and didn't want to violate the slave laws ("Submit or Die").

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and why would anyone be willing to join into alliance with a group named the empire of BioSlayer?

Ulp! Well... you're the one with the big starship.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2003, 12:33:53 am »

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and why can earths starbase be able to make ships when the syreens apparently cant?

Well, first off, the Earth starbase is the center of operations for your empire, and all allies send their captains there, not the Gaia starbase. Having all your allies send their captains to every friendly starbase you discover could cause them to spread their captains thin. Hence their inability to build non-Syreen ships.

Second, the Syreens may not have the crew to recrew your ship (and even if they do, their crew may be too much of a ... distraction). Hence their conceivable inability to recrew you.

Third, the Syreens have presumably been as neglected as Earth's starbase and may not have the resources to produce fuel or upgrades for your ship (or to build any of their ships) anyway. And since you don't offload minerals to them, they can't do much for you.

It would be neat though, if you could offload minerals at their base and then have them refuel you, upgrade your ship, or build Penetrators.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2003, 12:46:15 am »

No, the real reason only the earth starbase can build stuff is because you brought only one set of precursor fabrication tech with you from Vela.

Remember the beginning of the game where Hayes takes a couple-week break to incorporate the precursor tech into the starbase?

Yeah, now you remember.

But you should still be able to refuel (though not recrew) at Betelgeuse.
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2003, 01:03:28 am »

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Remember the beginning of the game where Hayes takes a couple-week break to incorporate the precursor tech into the starbase?

Ah, just reread it. I was under the impression that the engineers modified the ship to comply with the station's specs, not vice versa (I think the added warp-escape is what made me think that).
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2003, 05:21:59 am »

I think i know how the chmmr knew they would be safe for the amount of years they needed.

They spoke the words.

and the ur-quan answered
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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2003, 06:28:42 am »

Bioslayer wins a gold star!  The more I read through the Chmmr dialog on PNF, the more I think that's correct.  Unfortunately, they don't tell you to say the words like the Pkunk and Melnorme do, but the Chmmr do know about the Kohr-Ah (possibly even if you haven't met the Kohr-Ah yet).  So, they knew the Kohr-Ah were coming, but didn't know that it would be so soon.  They deduced that the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za would stay in the area for a while, but would eventually continue on their Path of Now and Forever, leaving the Chenjesu and MmrnMhrm to do whatever they pleased.

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Re: Question about the Chmmr
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2003, 10:42:15 am »

what intrests me, is that the hybrid race had to be planned out, before they went under the shield. if i remember correctly, commander hayes says he has no way to contact the earths surface. so what ever plans the m-bots and crystal dudes made, had to have been planned out before they got shielded. maybe they thought of this as as a backup plan, in case we lost. wich we did. so when do you think they came to the conclusion that combining races, would benefit the stagnet m-bots, and also unleash the avatar, to match in battle, the ur-quan? makes me wonder why they felt it neccesary to keep us humans out of the loop. what else are they hiding?


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« Last Edit: December 04, 2003, 07:24:25 am by DEFIANT » Logged
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