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Author Topic: The Israeli situation  (Read 21917 times)
Death 999
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2004, 09:23:09 pm »

Well, I know a jew who lives in the US. He visited Israel in 1955 or so. His main reaction was, "The treatment of the Palestineans is horrible. This cannot last."

We have been seeing how right he was.

If you have a proud people, and you have taken their land, you're already pretty screwed, because they will want it back.

But if you have displaced them into the desert from the arable regions, and economically strangle them and disrupt their governmental services and provide no replacement, do not expect them to get over the loss, as they otherwise might.

And if you then execute decapitating strikes against their resistance movement, and then you try to form up a truce, don't be surprised when they break the truce, because there is no command structure anymore (you destroyed it, remember?).

And if you are killing three times as many of their people as they kill yours, don't expect the moral high ground argument to work on them.

Just 2˘...
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2004, 09:38:21 pm »

You made me laugh! "We" kill them 3 times more than they kill "us"? Maybe the opposite is true...
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2004, 10:26:31 pm »

I'd be interested in seeing some statistics on that... It seems that the numbers vary with whoever publishes the news. Israeli usually fall prey to terror attacks, or soldiers are ambusehd. Palestinians get their houses bulldozed, get bombed, and if I'm not mistaken some of them starve in refugee camps? Is there any place where one can get reliable statistics on this subject?

On a side track, two of the Israeli settlements were torn down by Israelis, so we may be a little bit closer to getting somewhere. ALthough I doubt that the Palestinians will be staisfied with anything less than the removal of all the illegal settlements...
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2004, 10:28:55 pm »

They will be satisfied by "throwing all to the sea".
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2004, 10:39:44 pm »

Whereas you simply wish to throw them all out of the country they once inhabited, and place them in great camps on the Syrian side of the border? The difference is not so great.

Seriously DJ, that phrase is one for the religious loonies, not something to confuse with people in everyday life. I'm fairly sure that most palestinian boys your age, though they may resent you like you resent them, daydream about throwing all jews into the sea just as much as you daydream of  packing the rest of the into refugee camps...

Not even the PLO calls for the destruction of the state of Israel nowadays....
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2004, 11:04:46 pm »

I want to leave in silence, thats all. Had enough of this political shit. You can blame only 1 man for the situation today: Igal Amir.
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2004, 11:39:14 pm »

Very seldom is one single person responsible for any greater situation. To play the blame game in itself is useless, and to narrow the entire vicious circle of destruction that is present day Israel down to one man is quite frankly, foolish. No offense meant DJ, but there is always more than one reason, more to things than what floats at the top.

I mean, take Finland for example. It is pretty much accepted today that the reason for our entering the second world war was a false accusation that the Soviets used as a reason to invade. However, the reasons for them to make this accusation are many, varying from the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to their profound worry that the aalandic islands would be taken by either the allies or the axis.

There are always many reasons. always hidden agendas. And very rarely is one side to blame for everything that happens.

EDIT: As for wanting to live in silence and peace, that's whjat most people want. Problem is, there are small groups of fanatics on both sides who don't want peace.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2004, 11:40:51 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2004, 01:25:41 am »

Quote

And if you are killing three times as many of their people as they kill yours, don't expect the moral high ground argument to work on them..


you forget an important diffrence, they kill innocent civilians intentionally, israel doesn't
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Death 999
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2004, 02:15:29 am »

Quote
You made me laugh! "We" kill them 3 times more than they kill "us"? Maybe the opposite is true...


Here is an Israeli site, to kick things off...
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities.asp

a quick glance over their stats reveals a fairly consistent 1:3 casualty ratio (Palestineans dying more). You do have to be careful, especially with their monthly tables, because the Israelis are split up by location of death.

A neutral source:
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html

Al-Jazeera is not exactly unbiased, but here's their take on it:
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Human%20price%20of%20the%20occupation/2003%20human%20price/March%202003%20casualties.htm

here is another site with ties to Al-jazeera.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Here is another arab source
http://www.caabu.org/press/factsheets/casualty_stats.html

For another source which can't seriously be considered to have ties to islamist movements:
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/summit/text2003/0224rkr.htm

and another...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1098353,00.html

In this last article in particular:
"At its core, the letter questions the legality of the "targeted assassinations" that have claimed the lives of more civilian bystanders than their Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade targets."

And more generally:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/379379.html

On the other hand...
http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/PalestinianCosmeticCasualties
But coming from a user whose name is 'palestineansarelies' I can't exactly endorse this either. Especially if they can't even spell 'liars'.


Slylendro said:
"you forget an important diffrence, they kill innocent civilians intentionally, israel doesn't"

Israel has persistently used methods of assassination of militants which are very very likely to cause massive civilian casualties. Like bombing the home of a militant with a bomb which destroyed the entire city block, killing 14 people.
Like rocket attacks, which routinely hit innocents.

Anyway, all I was saying is that if you are killing that many people, you can't expect THEM to understand your good intentions.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2004, 02:18:23 am by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2004, 02:23:52 am »

Quote
I want to leave in silence, thats all. Had enough of this political shit. You can blame only 1 man for the situation today: Igal Amir.



I agree,

that bitch changed the history.

If it wasn't him - then both Israel and Palastine would have been living happily now- for 8 years.

And as for the fight over the land: DJ said it generally but it's much more complicated then you think.
Some of the lands belong to Syria- we captured them after they attacked us (and that's the only thing that proctects us from them).

The rest of the land was given to us when Israel was born.
In the begining it was divided between us and the Arabes - but they wanted the entire land, (might sound weird, but it's true, check the history books), and after they began a war against us, we captured their land, and some other lands (It was Israel VS 7 countries.. ).
Up till now they tried like 5-6 more times to capture us, and failed.

It was our parents who fought those wars.
In the last decade, we signed for peace with Egypt and Jordan, and were about to sign with Arafat too when our PM was murdered by Igal-Amir.

Since then, we're suffering.



Now- enough with the history, I don't like it very much..
If you find what I just said hard to belive, you're free to check anywhere you want.
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2004, 02:26:22 am »

And once again D_999 beats me to the point, and with a bundle of good links as well.

Just try and remember, noone is saying that this is solely the Israelis fault. We're just pointing out that all of the blame can't be laid at the feet of the Palestinians. In my eyes, both sides have tarnished themselves in this conflict, and noone can really claim moral high ground. And the only real chance for peace is that both sides can stand down from this, and really TRY for peace.
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Re: Israel, the home of DJ
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2004, 05:30:02 pm »

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And once again D_999 beats me to the point, and with a bundle of good links as well.

Just try and remember, noone is saying that this is solely the Israelis fault. We're just pointing out that all of the blame can't be laid at the feet of the Palestinians. In my eyes, both sides have tarnished themselves in this conflict, and noone can really claim moral high ground. And the only real chance for peace is that both sides can stand down from this, and really TRY for peace.



Nobody is justifying our goverment,

but remember this:

* Israeli soldiers are kids who just finished school.
THEY HAVE TO go to the army- in 2 years I'll have to go as well.
If you refuse to your order, you'll go to jail.

And belive me- I really don't feel like going around in all those refugee camps shooting and threating people.


* When Israel hurts civilians, it doesn't do it on purpuse, we do it because the terrorists hide behind the women and children.

The terrorists on the other hand- are now planning to bomb an entire high-school, knowing that everybody there are only kids.



Sure- both sides are hurt, but the Palastiniens are blood-lusted (most of them support the terror organizations), just like our PM and Arafat, both of them feel they have nothing to lose.


And again- it's us, the kids- who have to get it on their head..  Angry
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Lukipela
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2004, 06:16:35 pm »

I am well aware of the make of the Israeli army, a good friend of mine did his army service there in order to become a citizen, so I've heard quite a few stories. A few points though, if I may.

Most Palestinians support the terror organisations? Maybe. The State of Palestine that they are trying to set up doesn't though. Again, it's easy to put all Palestinians in the same basket, but feeling resentment and anger isn't necessarily the same as condoning terrorist attacks.

And viewing it from the other side, don't most Israeli support their army? The Israeli army, whilst not officially targetting civilians do tend to leave a trail of dead bodies behind them, especially during their "legal assasinations". It is debatable wether this almost equals killing civilians on purpose, as these attacks always have civilian casualties, something the army surely knows. This does not win goodwill, and I'm not surprised that some people compare that to the suicide bombers.

Please note that I'm not comparing the official army to suicide bombers, but then again, most terror organisations aren't offical are they? I seem to recall several incidents where Israelis (especially settlers) have opened fire upon arabs, and one infamous occasion where an Israeli actually murdered the prime minister. These are the people you could be likening to the suicide bombers. Is there any evidence of the "Palestinian Security Forces" conducting strikes like these against Israel? Doubtful.

You say you don't look forward to joining the army, having to patrol the camps? Well, I doubt that youngsters in the camp look forward to being raided by Israeli Army forces either. Right no, noone is happy.

On a side note I can only add that I'm taking this stance in part because very few people here seem to be seeing the Palestinians view of things. I just dislike seeing a story entirely from one angle. I've had this same conversation in other forums where people have been racking down on "the infernal jewish state", where my arguments (though the same arguments) have come out sounding much more pro-Israeli.

Bottom line, everybody suffers, and both sides pay for it. Just don't think any side is too much in the right.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2004, 08:47:50 pm »

First, the guy who killed the PM : Igal - Amir.
Second, if they won't terror attack us then do you think we will have a reason to stay there? No. If they will stop the terror attack then no one will be murdered(maybe from time to time fire on towns next to them...) just before the Intifada.(Hope I spelled it right...). The point is, that we are there just to stop them from killing us! Every day we stop them from trying to enter our cities and mass-kill by a suicider. Sometimes we can't...
I don't blame ALL of them. I blame those who do that, but the point is that they reflect bad image about everyone. Same with Israel.
Herrrr, like I said before, I didn't come here to enter this issue but to run away from it and forget it!
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2004, 08:49:48 am »

I like the wall.
Its a good idea.

but it needs to be completed. or is it?

I dont have anything else to add to this subject that would be constructive.
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