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Author Topic: The Israeli situation  (Read 24562 times)
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2004, 10:43:49 pm »

DJ, I'm not condoning terror, I'm simply stating it's the easiest way to gain compliance with someone or a group of people. Hell, even countries. The U.S. uses scare tactics all the time, but you never hear about them because if anyone dared to make a report about it, these scares would probably become the living hell nightmares of whoever made the report.

Suicide bombers, "martyrs for the cause", have something screwed up in their heads. I believe in causes too, but I don't think there's ONE cause in the world that I'd die for. I'd only die for living, breathing people that can carry on their lives and do so affecting the world in a better way than I could, not for moralistic ideas or religious zealotry.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2004, 08:17:30 pm »

The most current example: Spain
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2004, 04:37:39 am »

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DJ, I'm not condoning terror, I'm simply stating it's the easiest way to gain compliance with someone or a group of people. Hell, even countries. The U.S. uses scare tactics all the time, but you never hear about them because if anyone dared to make a report about it, these scares would probably become the living hell nightmares of whoever made the report.

Suicide bombers, "martyrs for the cause", have something screwed up in their heads. I believe in causes too, but I don't think there's ONE cause in the world that I'd die for. I'd only die for living, breathing people that can carry on their lives and do so affecting the world in a better way than I could, not for moralistic ideas or religious zealotry.


Fear is used all the time as a way of controling the population making them conform.
"People afraid to commit crimes because they are afraid to go to prison,  People are afraid to "sin" out of fear of hell." George Carlin(not an exact quote but you get the basic idea.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2004, 06:20:50 pm »

I'm not so sure I agree with that. Sure, it's true for some people, but I've always felt that if the only reason you don't commit crimes is a fear of getting caught, then there must have been some serious gaps in your upbringing. If the only reason you don't "sin" is a fear of "hell", then aren't you a "sinner" anyway? just one who does not act out on your sins.

Let me elaborate. If you look around in any city today, you'll see untold opportunities to commit crimes, both for fun and for profit.

Vandalism for example. the chances of you getting caught for throwing a rock through a window in a larger suburban area, or smaller city centre is extremmyely low. In my hometown (pop 15.000) the closest police unit during the week can sometimes take up to 20 mins to arrive at the scene of the crime, and by then you'll be looong gone.

Shoplifting is a example of crime for profit. Most stores aren't that advanced, and smaller stores are generally very easy to steal from, as they have no electronicc alarms.

My point? even with these situations, where it is virtually guaranteed that you don't get caught, it still doesn't happen. Oh sure, there is some vandalism, some shoplifting, there are always bad seeds. But not to the extent there would be if what you wrote was really true. Most people simply don't do these things, because they've been taught that it's not right. where not especially religious over here either, so I doubt that vandalistic onslaught is being held at bay by fear of the devil.

So I believe what most people will do thins simply because they've been taught that it's right. Because deep down most of us has the urge to be good.

Now, you may think I'm just a wee bit off topic, so I'll be steering back on to it with a small comment.

Consider a suicide bomber. If he/she grows up in a place where it is viewed to be right and good to give your life to the cause, then why should it be any surprise that there are many people ready to do so? this isn't brainwashing in any sense, it's a cultural value instilled from to generation to rather rapid generation. and if we really want to get to the bottom of this problem, ever, we really need to figure out a way to influence this culture, to steer it gently away from its current course, and shatter the beliefs of martyrdom that powers this kind of thinking. And I doubt this can be achieved with guns. Nor that it will in any way be easy. It's gonna be ahrd as hell. But we have to try. Why? because we want to do the right thing.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2004, 06:21:58 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2004, 08:12:08 pm »

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.. and if we really want to get to the bottom of this problem, ever, we really need to figure out a way to influence this culture, to steer it gently away from its current course, and shatter the beliefs of martyrdom that powers this kind of thinking. And I doubt this can be achieved with guns. Nor that it will in any way be easy. It's gonna be ahrd as hell. But we have to try. Why? because we want to do the right thing.


Which brings up the question, did the Alliance try to steer the Shofixti out of their suicide missions, just for the moral of life?
As for the current topic, there's nothing much the Israelis can do against the incitement in Palestinian schools, aside, of course, from what already has been tried.

I personally believe all reasonable attempts have been exausted, and building a sophisticated physical border (the "fence") is in fact a good idea. Hey, it worked for China!
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2004, 03:42:23 pm »

See, this is why I like it when you drop in... An interesting mroal queestion. While the Shofixti see suicide strikes as a valid last resort, the rest of the alliance probably does not feel the same way, especially the wussier races such as hunams and Chenjesu. And yet, they do not seem to object to the massive waste of shofixti life. Now, there are a few different alternatives here that readily present themselves.

1. Desperate times call for desperate measures. The alliance was simply in too much of a bind for the Chenjesu faction to be able to stop this, as a loss of the Shofixti novas would have meant a great loss to the offensive AND defensive capability of the alliance. Possibly the others were going to put a stop to this after the war, but during hostilities it was just too much of a resource.

2. Free will and individual culture. While some elements in the alliance felt that the  way of the shofixti was harsh and primitive, alliance rules may still have stated that all alliance partners had to respect the quirks of the other cultures, in a Star Trekkish way. The Yehat clarly violated this when they uplifted the Shofixit, but I'm not sure if this was before or afetr the Yehat themselves entered the Alliance. Non-interference in cultural matters may well mean that the other races were powerless to stop the rodents from detonating at will.

3. Conformity. Seeing as it is not mentioned in any manual, it is quite possible that this kind of behaviour was routinely used and accepted by all members of the alliance. It may have been quite a common sight to see a crippled Earth Cruiser ram it's way into a Ilwrath, but due to game engine specifics we weren't able to do it.

Hmm, anyone else come up with any other theory?

Going back on the original topic, while I intensly dislike the thought of that fence,  it may well be the only possibility at the moment.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2004, 05:35:43 pm »

Well, when I think about it the shofixti and the humans/chenjesu were in a very different situation. See, as you migh remember the quotes, the chenjesu got their finest ships destroyed at ten times their own weapons range. By what else but the (If you have beat the game you know) (I don't want to spoil it for anyone). Therefore, it was pointless to charge against a ship that will kill everyone without getting close and at least damaging it.

However one the Shofixti side, they were attacked by dreadnoughts. The dreadnoughts were obviously not invincible and were just asking for the bomb when they entered the star system.


Now the question is, would the humans/chenjesu blew up the bomb as the shofixti did. I think probaly, but they would have tried to get most of there troops out and than have them volenteer. Now the Ur-quan might not have fallen for it, but that is another discussion.
 
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2004, 09:43:40 pm »

Eh? You're talking bout the end of the war there sonny boy, at which stage the Quan had brought out the Big GunsTM to wipe out the troublesome Chenjesu. The war started long before that, and for quite a while there was a unified alliance front, hence the game SC1 where you can use all alliance ships versus all Hierarchy ships. That's the situation I'm thinking about. Byt the end, when the Chenjesu got cornered with the M:bots, and the Alliance fell apart, all these moral concepts must already have been worked out.

To clarify even more, I'm not talking about the Shofixti system going nova as you seem to think, but about the standard procedure of incorporating a glory device in your combat vessel, something done by the Shofixti all through the war.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2004, 10:23:13 pm »

Oh - Sorry, I have not played nor heard much storyline of SC1.

On option number 3 - That just does not seem possible. Of course there would be exeptions, but compared to the Shofixti, humans and chenjesu as well as others were cowardly.

I would say the 2 option would be the best bet.

You have to wonder though about what the yehat who uplifted the shofixti thought about the glory device....
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2004, 10:29:37 pm »

The Yehat probably thought it was a great idea. Rememebr, they have a culture based on pretty much the same sort of honour code, valour, bravery, facing death and the likes. While they might not take it to the extrenmes that the Shofixti did, it probably lies very close to the mentality they themselves employ. I wouldn't be at all surprised if yehat ships every now and then crashed into Quans, shields and guns blazing.

As for option 3 being unliikely, who is to say? We know very little abouth the Chenjesu, but possibly a philosophical race like theirs might view death as the next big adventure, the next step on the journey if you will. Also, while annoyingly moral the Chenjesu seem to be very focused on completing their tasks and planning far ahead, no matter the costs. Just look at their entire merging process plan, that kind of stuff takes guts.

Humans on the other hand, might have had more of a selfperservance instinct. However, if you know your cruiser is much too criticalyl damaged to ever make it back, who is to say they didn't just do a little crashing of their own? while not as common as in Shofixti culture, it's not impossible that it was a common procedure among other races as well.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2004, 10:34:47 pm »

Well, seeing that different humans have different mentalities, whos to say that chenjesu shofiti and yehat dont. We already had this conversation about the spathi and the black spathi squadron. We can only talk to very few of each race. Whos to say that a couple Utwig wern't partying at the loss of the ultron, or that some druuge live outside the crimson corperation.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2004, 10:38:23 pm »

If humans are for self-preservation, then what are the spathi for?  Grin

As far as we know for our culture, did the Shofixti just have glory devices on their ships or on their bodies as well.

*Watchs a Shofixti hunting show

"Right now, we are in the deepest of forests, hunting the dreaded beasts. Our veteran guide has just spotted the prey. Look how he carefully sneaks up on it and.....   (A loud Scream oof Kyieeeee) Yes, it would appear as if we have steaks tonight!"

Now it would not be that bad, but it is something to think about.







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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2004, 10:42:48 pm »

Yes, but while different humans are very different, we do have certain general things in common that allow for very few exceptions. Especially if we are considering a more homogenous culture (as I assume the Shofixti are), you'd still have misfits, but almost everyone would bow to the cultural norm.

Think of any specific human culture, and you'll see that while there are certain outsiders, most people will follow the norm even though they may not completely agree with it (Simple example, China. Extreme example, Nazi-Germany). The same ought to be true for any culture. And the further back you go in history (and remember, the Shofixti were uplifted, they have the technology but not neccessarily the cultural background) the more mainstream cultures become, as folks going against the stream would be cast out, stoned or burned.

And simple evidence that this carries in the SC universe. Every Scout caries a glory device. therefore you can logically conclude that every captain and crew are prepared to use one. Therefore, blazes of glory is somethign accepted in general culture, therefore the same culture applies to a broad spectrum of the Shofixti culture.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2004, 10:46:46 pm »

Earth contains many countries and they all act in different ways. Who's to say that other alien worlds don't have devisions within.
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Re: The Israeli situation
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2004, 10:50:37 pm »

None is to say, but as I stated above, at least for the Shofixti I think their culture may have been more homogenous, as they were uplifted at an earlier stage. And even if they weren't, I'm guessing the Shofixti that impressed the Yehat and were given technology probably took control over all other Shofixti tribes fairly quick. No matter how tough you are, blaster rifles beat sticks any day. Also, once more, they DO have glory devices on every ship. Of course, it is possible that they have some select group that believes in detonating and that only people from that group are recruited into the military, but that still make sthat group very influential in Shofixti culture.

As for the Chenjesu, I dunno. I always figured that any very philosophically advanced race such as they would already have smoothed out the differences between whatever cultures they had to begin with. while they may still debate wether truth is beauty or beauty is truth, they probably pretty much agree on how their civilisation ought to be run, and according to what values.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2004, 10:51:17 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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