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Author Topic: Mars...the next Fontier?  (Read 19785 times)
NECRO-99
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2004, 09:44:28 pm »

Quote
I suppose you could get one and bring it with you considering the system only weighs about 8 tons (That is how much they really weigh)..  

8 tons is nothing. Sherman tanks weigh about three times that. Remove the turret, replace it with a RADAR dish, all the mechanisms for reloading/shell storage could be used to contain the power system.

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I disagree - This was about microwaves and its applications with weapons - I was putting forth a example.

Well, A microwave weapon would simply kill all life wherever it was pointed. A Daisy Cutter would kill all life wherever it was pointed and leave a huge crater, making the land unuseable, at least until the Army Engineers put all the dirt/tar/whatever back in the gaping hole...

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No, a certain type of metal can take radar - and absorb it without turning hot.

What metal is that?

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We do that with Kevlar  - not to mention there would not need to be that much lead if we were to use it.  Also Kevlar is fairly heavy.


You don't need "much" lead. 1 ppm in blood is all you need for low level lead posioning. High level is only 10 ppm. Symptoms of low level lead poisoning include:
Fatigue, Depression, Abdominal Pain, High Blood Pressure
Sypmtoms of high level lead poisoning include:
Joint Weakness, Gout, Kidney Failure and, finally, Heart Failure.

Taken from the DuPont website, the first company to produce Kevlar armor vests/helmets/gloves...
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The power and protection comes packed at an extremely light weight, which provides both comfort and freedom of movement to those that wear KEVLARョ.

Where are you getting your information?

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What really happened was a baseball connected to the glass and cracked it. We called the company and lo and behold the thing did not work because it sensed the glass was fractured. (That is what he told us - We never tried it)

Just duct tape the hell out of it. It's safe...honest... Wink
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2004, 09:55:39 pm »

Getting back to the subject at hand, I can definately agree with you, Lukipela.  It is dangerous to have the entirity of a species in one small location (one planet being small as opposed to a galaxy).  It would be a wise, and very likely even a necessary step in our advancement for humanity to take to the stars.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2004, 10:06:39 pm »

To continue this needless, but fun conversation here is what I have to say:

Quote

8 tons is nothing. Sherman tanks weigh about three times that. Remove the turret, replace it with a RADAR dish, all the mechanisms for reloading/shell storage could be used to contain the power system.

If you removed all the parts the gunnery parts from the sherman tank you would not have enough ROOM (and maybe weight too, I am not sure) to put in a power system powerful enough to work for the type of powerful Radar you are talking about.

Quote

Well, A microwave weapon would simply kill all life wherever it was pointed. A Daisy Cutter would kill all life wherever it was pointed and leave a huge crater, making the land unuseable, at least until the Army Engineers put all the dirt/tar/whatever back in the gaping hole...

A radar that powerful will also destry more than life. Think about it. A microwave heats up your food by making WATER molecules move. Now lots of things have water in them - not just living things. (Including what was my head Wink )




Quote

What metal is that?

You don't need "much" lead. 1 ppm in blood is all you need for low level lead posioning. High level is only 10 ppm. Symptoms of low level lead poisoning include:
Fatigue, Depression, Abdominal Pain, High Blood Pressure
Sypmtoms of high level lead poisoning include:
Joint Weakness, Gout, Kidney Failure and, finally, Heart Failure.

A answer to both those questions. In the USA Airplane category there are planes that are made and "painted" of stuff that repels and absorbs radar and radar waves with out heating up.

Quote

Taken from the DuPont website, the first company to produce Kevlar armor vests/helmets/gloves...
Where are you getting your information?

From personal experience - Have you ever been fully decked out in that stuff?



« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 10:40:10 pm by FalconMWC » Logged
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2004, 11:25:41 pm »

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You don't need "much" lead. 1 ppm in blood is all you need for low level lead posioning.


Metallic lead is not sufficiently bioavailable to be very toxic. Cut it up into little tiny pieces and becomes a lot more toxic.

However, I don't believe in a metal which can absorb microwaves without getting hot. It's that conservation of energy thing. I DO believe in a metal which can reflect microwaves with great efficiency. BUT...

1) you would need to cover every little portion of the body. If the microwave attack is an area attack, then protection for your body alone is pointless if your head is unprotected.
2) the ground and other materials will absorb some energy, and get very hot. Cookage ensues anyway.

On the other hand, I haven't seen any signs that such high power output can be created by a small source (on the scale of a tank). Maybe on the scale of an artillery piece, but an artillery piece with a range of 100 meters is to be laughed at.
In general, if you would use such a short-ranged microwave weapon, use an incendiary spray (large flamethrower) instead.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2004, 11:29:43 pm »

Allright, my last crank before I get shot for Off Topic Violations.

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If you removed all the parts the gunnery parts from the sherman tank you would not have enough ROOM (and maybe weight too, I am not sure) to put in a power system powerful enough to work for the type of powerful Radar you are talking about.


So, build a slightly larger, less mobile treaded vehicle that can accomodate it. The Sherman was a flimsy example, I'll admit that.

Quote
A radar that powerful will also destry more than life. Think about it. A microwave heats up your food by making WATER molecules move. Now lots of things have water in them - not just living things. (Including what was my head)

Think of it this way. What do you think will take less time: Letting water molecules cool down, or filling in a huge earthen scar left by a Daisy Maker? Also, water boils, true,  but other substances probably have a higher heat resistance than humans/other fleshy things. I know all fauna, not to mention flora, would be toast, but the basic ground structure would stay intact. I bet you don't need to boil a human for long to kill it.  Tongue

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A answer to both those questions. In the USA Airplane category there are planes that are made and "painted" of stuff that repels and absorbs radar and radar waves with out heating up.

A: Stealth fighters/bombers employ RADAR Absorbent Material (RAM), true, but the main reason they cannot be detected is due to their angular shape. The RADAR cannot bounce back enough of it's beams to it's reciever, therefore gleaning no signal. (The whole angular thing is why I said NOT to use tinfoil, its really good at sending microwaves all alstray.
B: At that range, RADAR waves don't heat things up. You want to paint all the infantry with RAM? Read http://[Allright, my last crank before I get shot for Off Topic Violations.

[quote]If you removed all the parts the gunnery parts from the sherman tank you would not have enough ROOM (and maybe weight too, I am not sure) to put in a power system powerful enough to work for the type of powerful Radar you are talking about.[/quote]

So, build a slightly larger, less mobile treaded vehicle that can accomodate it. The Sherman was a flimsy example, I'll admit that.

[quote]A radar that powerful will also destry more than life. Think about it. A microwave heats up your food by making WATER molecules move. Now lots of things have water in them - not just living things. (Including what was my head)[/quote]
Think of it this way. What do you think will take less time: Letting water molecules cool down, or filling in a huge earthen scar left by a Daisy Maker? Also, water boils, true,  but other substances probably have a higher heat resistance than humans/other fleshy things. I know all fauna, not to mention flora, would be toast, but the basic ground structure would stay intact. I bet you don't need to boil a human for long to kill it.  :P

[quote]A answer to both those questions. In the USA Airplane category there are planes that are made and "painted" of stuff that repels and absorbs radar and radar waves with out heating up. [/quote]
A: Stealth fighters/bombers employ slight RADAR dispersal paint, true, but the main reason they cannot be detected is due to their angular shape. The RADAR cannot bounce back enough of it's beams to it's reciever, therefore gleaning no signal. (The whole angular thing is why I said NOT to use tinfoil, its really good at sending microwaves all alstray.
B: At that range, RADAR waves don't heat things up. You want to paint all the infantry with microwave-resistant paint? Taken from the Argos Press, [url]http://www.argospress.com/Resources/radar/radarabsorbmateri.htm

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The disadvantages of radar absorbent material include additional weight, expense, heating problems and aerodynamic drag (if applicable).

It's heavier than Kevlar would ever be, costly, and the soldiers will die from heat stroke before they'd ever even encounter one of my theoretical RADAR Tanks.

Quote
From personal experience - Have you ever been fully decked out in that stuff?

From "fully decked out", I'll take it you mean a helmet, a vest, leggings, and I'll assume forearm bracers and boots as well.
(Take a wild guess if I have been.) It's not that heavy, but it gets hot when you're running around and sweating.

OK, no more arguing here, or we're both liable to get pillow'd to hell and back.

Yes, explore space. Space is good. Too many hunams for this little rock. Colonize the moon. Then Mars. Then Alpha Centauri. Oh wait, we'd roast there. Nevermind.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2004, 11:40:39 pm »

As fun as this conversation/argument has been - I think your right. One more post and then we will be sent to mars by pillows.

As for your futuristic RADAR tank - Welll its got some major problems, but if you correct them and send it to the military you might be rich! Roll Eyes  .

As for the real topic of this thread it will be interesting to see if NASA will agree to it and if the program will get enough funding.  
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 11:41:19 pm by FalconMWC » Logged
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2004, 11:52:39 pm »

We should build a gigantic mother ship on Earth. Somewhere that's got a TON of room...hey, lets do it in Russia! There's tons of space there. We build up a massive mothership that has built in factories/fabrication centers that allow us to create/synthesize whatever is humanly possible right now. Give it ionic drive for space travel (nuclear for takeoff/auxillary), and a handful of mining craft, plus a bucket of raw resources.

Sign me up!

ADD: Sorry I ignored your stuff D999 Sad Perhaps one of our larger aircraft could carry it?
Oops.
*blasted to Mars via pillowrocket*
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 11:55:02 pm by NECRO-99 » Logged

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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2004, 09:10:02 pm »

Quote
do microwaves origins, have something to do with a chocolate bar, i believe? hint, hint...

~DEFIANT


i was rereading my post, and i was trying to be cryptic because i didnt want to spoil Necro's upcoming post of microwave origins. but anyways, i was told that a person in 1950's, was working with a radar dish instillation. he had a chocolate bar in his pocket, and come to find out it melted. more so then what ordinary body heat would do. so thats how microwaves were discovered. at least from what i remember from school.

i just wanted to clear that up.

~DEFIANT

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Re: Too early yet.
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2004, 11:37:48 pm »

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I presume this would be due to the sun being in the way? We would definitely want a relay at one of the relevant Lagrange points to keep contact.
[/quote]What has me confused is that  you differentiated between pulsed laser and whatever other form of communication would take 8 hours. What is this slower medium?[/quote]
Currently we are using radiowaves to talk fwith our astronauts.
These radiowaves are travelling slower than light. (Beat me if i am wrong - pillow prefered)  If we'd use a pulsed laser (digital signal), the signal could be transmitted a lot faster, but we also need direct (or relayed) contact.
But i am wrong nontheless. It wouldn't be eight hours. I just got that out of my head. But nontheless it is difficult to have a discussion with someone if the delay is bigger than 10 minutes.

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Oh, and I bet that exactly for the reasons you say, for such a long voyage we won't be sending two or three people -- we'll be sending enough to form a small community (8 or more). That alleviates the situation of the guy in Mir, who had no more than two companions for any stretch of time. If two people stop liking each other, they can realistically stop talking for a while without the entire place breaking down.
The more we send - the bigger the ships needs to be, the higher the costs get.
And the poor Kosmonaut on the mir was alone (the other 2 were token down, the sojus-capsule was meant to be sent back up there within 1 week and 2 replacements. But the money got scraped, the capsule got damaged and it took the russions about 4 months to send 2 newones up there, and this sojus capsule was meant for 1 to go back to earth (designed differetly, couldn't take 2 down due to weight problems). And he had to send one of the two newcomers back, due to a severe illness the chinese (?) kosmonaut developed up there.

Nontheless - i am a SciFi Fan, and thus i hope that humankind will construct a (permanent) moonbase during my lifetime (at least start the construction).

Enjoy!
Krulle
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Hubble
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2004, 11:42:43 pm »

NASA stops the repairs and support missions to the hubble-telescope. It will burn in our atmosphere between 2006 and 2007. Damned!
The official declaration says, they need the shuttles for the construction of the ISS (i do believe them, but why not start an additional mission?).
That's what i hate: the Hubble brings far more knwoledge about space to us than interplanetary travel (at least at this point of knowledge). Maybe i have to revise this when some Vulcan-kind of people contact us after they find out that we are able to fly to another planet.

Enjoy!
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« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 11:43:17 pm by Krulle » Logged
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Re: Too early yet.
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2004, 12:33:05 am »

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Currently we are using radiowaves to talk fwith our astronauts.
These radiowaves are travelling slower than light. (Beat me if i am wrong - pillow prefered)


*slaps Krulle with The Tactical Nuclear Powered Ballistic Pillow With Cool Lights Flashing In Nice Patterns

The radiowaves and the light have one thing in common: they are both electro-magnetic waves.
And there is one thing that separates them: frequency.

The speed of electro-magnetic waves in vacuum is the same for all frequencies and is known as The Speed Of Light.

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The more we send - the bigger the ships needs to be, the higher the costs get.


one of the reasons I don't understand sending people to Mars.
Wouldn't it be better to invest the money in making a bit more mobile robots that could collect rocks from Mars and return home?
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2004, 05:47:33 pm »

Dammit, that hit with the pillow was necessary.
Now i remember my fault: i messed up with the speed of sound.
Dammit.

I'll just stand here for 5 minutes. Just slap me with yer pillows.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2004, 07:57:28 pm »

As the Hubble ages, its quality is diminishing. Also, it has looked at many of the things we would want to look at with the resolution it offers. To go further, it would be nicer to look at some of the more interesting things we've already looked at with a better telescope, than to look at more different things with the same resolution.

Such a better telescope is due to be lifted in 2012.

Of course, not having a six year gap between Hubble and the next telescope would be really nice.

btw: pillow slap to the chest.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2004, 07:57:45 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2004, 11:20:48 pm »

Here's an interesting thought...
The US controls and owns the telescope. It's been taking pictures of space for a good amount of time now, but the newer version will be more crisp and have better pictures. Say the Hubble isn't brought down. On a clandestine mission, the U.S. sends up Astronauts that fix the Hubble's course, attach rockets to it, and remove the rear paneling and replace it with a better lens.

Ever cooked an ant with a magnifying glass?

I'll let someone else put together what I'm thinking, for reaction's sake. Wink
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2004, 11:49:36 pm »

The lens in the hubble is designed to focus onto the back of the hubble, meaning that the focus would never reach earth;  in fact, light from the lens would be less intense than real sunlight; nothing like our vast mirror array on the moon.  That can fry a city in 12 minutes (only on a full moon though).   Roll Eyes
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