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Author Topic: Mars...the next Fontier?  (Read 20060 times)
Ivan Ivanov
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2004, 10:58:39 pm »

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warp drive is a working theory. and im not saying this as a star trek fan. but it requires 2 things to work: alot of energy to warp space/time, like say, a matter/anti-matter reaction. and a ship that can withstand the stress.

i agree on that we will not likely see such tech in 50 years let alone our lifetime. but i believe one day we will reach out to the stars.


HAR! HAR! HAR!
Sorry, but I don't think this will ever happen.
Like you said, warping time or space would require a lot of energy. Even if we find antimatter in our neighborhood, or find a way to produce antimatter, why should we use it for space-travel when there is much better appliance for it, namely blowing ourselves back to stone age (actually an anti-matter bomb would be enough to blow the whole planet to hell which is kind of like reaching out to the stars HAR! HAR! HAR!).

Yeah, maybe I am a bit pessimistic about mankind, but try to name one scientific breakthrough that didn't end up as some kind of weapon.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2004, 11:16:25 pm »

I see your point, but there are plenty of scientific breakthroughs that did not result in weapons
The clock, microwave, oven, shower, doors, paper, printers, phones, pencils, pens, erasers, rug, books, notebooks and vaccums. If you look, most of them are breakthroughs in history and I took about 15 seconds to name that list. I am not aware of any weapons that are using them.    

But a warp dive does seem far-fetched to me. I mean we have trouble getting to mars and we are talking about warp drives? I would have to see more information on this subject to make a decision though.  Smiley
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 11:18:01 pm by FalconMWC » Logged
Chrispy
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2004, 12:24:26 am »

the clock made timebombs
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Ivan Ivanov
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2004, 12:25:15 am »

Quote
I see your point, but there are plenty of scientific breakthroughs that did not result in weapons
The clock, microwave, oven, shower, doors, paper, printers, phones, pencils, pens, erasers, rug, books, notebooks and vaccums. If you look, most of them are breakthroughs in history and I took about 15 seconds to name that list. I am not aware of any weapons that are using them.

 
Well... Let's see... the microwave, and the oven can be easily used to kill someone.
Paper... dont you know how dangerous papercuts are?
Pencils, pens - well, the pen is mightier then the sword...

As for the rest there is a joke that goes something like:
Can a man be killed with a 12V battery?
It depends from how high it will fall...
HAR! HAR! HAR!

But seriously, by scientific breakthrough I meant something more general, not a specific invention.
Let's take the microwave for example. It actually wasn't a breakthrough, just a derivative of the radar, which was invented thanks to the progress in studies about electro-magnetic waves. So the microwave wasn't a breakthrough, nor was the radar, but the discovery of EM waves was.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2004, 12:48:20 am »

As to your post Chrispy and the first part of your post Ivan, none of those things have been turned into operational weapons. (Unless the military is hiding something Wink ) If you look at the Microwave for example, it cannot be used as a weapon without some serious modifying.  

Reagrding the second part of your post Ivan: I see you point loud and clear (radio Tongue). However my personal belief is that we will survive - I honestly don't belive that humans will destroy the world that we live on before we have a chance to go someplace else. Again that is my personal belief, but breakthroughs and iventions in science correspond with survival. In this day and age that is war, so more of the breakthroughs will come in the "aspect" of war. There will be spinoffs of course, (the microwave example is a exellent one)   but again the focus is on war. Sometimes we don't realize it, but I think it is still there. Earlier in time the focus was on food. Thus they had more breakthroughs on food, not war.  Anyway just my personal opinions about this subject.
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Ivan Ivanov
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2004, 01:39:02 am »

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As to your post Chrispy and the first part of your post Ivan, none of those things have been turned into operational weapons. (Unless the military is hiding something Wink ) If you look at the Microwave for example, it cannot be used as a weapon without some serious modifying.


Then you didn't see to many Steven Seagal movies. The man is my personal hero, in his movies there was not a single thing that wasn't used as some kind of weapon. During every movie I play a game with my brother: what will be used to kill the bad guys in the next fight scene?
Credit cards? Pickles? A towel? ... the possibilities are endless  Grin

Quote
Reagrding the second part of your post Ivan: I see you point loud and clear (radio Tongue). However my personal belief is that we will survive - I honestly don't belive that humans will destroy the world that we live on before we have a chance to go someplace else.


Our present nuclear arsenal is powerful enough to blow Earth up about 60 times, so we have a chance to blow ourselves all to hell but dont realy have a chance to move someplace else. But I think you're right, it seems unlikely that  we would all die in the result of even the most horrible war. But unless there is a fast and cheap way of moving around the galaxy, I think that our history will resemble Thraddash's...
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2004, 01:51:25 am »

I wonder how you calculate how many times the arsenal could blow up earth, though I dont doubt that it could.
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Death 999
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2004, 02:51:34 am »

If by "blow up Earth" you mean transform it into something resembling the asteroid belt, you are mistaken. We couldn't remove 1/100 of the Earth's mass with all the nuclear weapons we've ever built.

In any case, there is a theoretical warp field concept, but it relies on negative energy.

Negative energy has been observed.

HOWEVER:

If you want to create negative energy, you need to sharply reduce the amount of energy in an area.. A reduction so sharp that the energy keeps dropping past the classically sensible level, just on inertia (metaphorically speaking). However, the universe doesn't like to have negative energy, so to have negative energy you have to remove about 1000 times more energy.

And it will disappear pretty darn quick, too.

Basically, the in-principle limitations rule out applications for space travel. Even if you have a couple megatons*c^2 of energy lying around.
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2004, 05:05:00 am »

Quote


HAR! HAR! HAR!
Sorry, but I don't think this will ever happen.
Like you said, warping time or space would require a lot of energy. Even if we find antimatter in our neighborhood, or find a way to produce antimatter, why should we use it for space-travel when there is much better appliance for it, namely blowing ourselves back to stone age (actually an anti-matter bomb would be enough to blow the whole planet to hell which is kind of like reaching out to the stars HAR! HAR! HAR!).

Yeah, maybe I am a bit pessimistic about mankind, but try to name one scientific breakthrough that didn't end up as some kind of weapon.


yes, perhaps a weapon might be made from the use of antimatter. but i look at it like this: if we destroy ourselves, then its for the better. it only means mankind wasnt ready for such power. antimatter, like nuclear, needs to be held in responsibe hands. hopefully in the many years to come, things will be different. we, as a human race, have over come many things. but we still have a long way to go. time will only tell when and if we are truly ready for the great unknown...space.

~DEFIANT

ps: i see the glass full. 50% content/50% air
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 05:07:22 am by DEFIANT » Logged
Ivan Ivanov
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2004, 11:53:07 am »

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If by "blow up Earth" you mean transform it into something resembling the asteroid belt, you are mistaken. We couldn't remove 1/100 of the Earth's mass with all the nuclear weapons we've ever built.


To be honest I'm not sure what I meant. It's something I heard on my *** class (I'll be damned if I find the english/american equivalent of it. Basicly it's a class led by a retired military officer who tells us about ABC warfare, all sorts of natural disasters and what to do when they happen) But come to think of it, the teacher told us things that would qualify as fairy tales. Maybe "blow up Earth" means "render it inhabitbale" or maybe it's just one of those fairy tales. If so, then I'm sorry for spreading disinformation.


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In any case, there is a theoretical warp field concept, but it relies on negative energy.

Negative energy has been observed.


Negative energy? That sounds interesting...
So if I "heated up" water with negative energy, it would not only freaze but become so cold that it would anti-boil?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 11:54:07 am by Ivan_Ivanov » Logged

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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2004, 04:20:26 pm »

Back to the Mars mission:

My greater concerns are not the sun radiation but what mans brain will do to himself if he losses contact to others (but the few who acompany him). It's not only the trip, but he has also to wait for around one year (!) on surface of mars before he can return to earth (due to the planetary constellation).

So the people will be gone for around 2 years. How long will they take to get used to gravity (first mars' gravtiy before they can start researching it), then earths (which is quite a lot higher). How will they feel after ground contact? How long will it take them to start leading their own lifes again?

That are question which should be solved before we send someone out there!

Just my two cents.

Edit: corrected some spelling-errors
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 04:25:10 pm by Krulle » Logged
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Re: Mars...the next Frontier?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2004, 07:22:29 pm »

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We have to wait quite a long time to get any progress with the possible manned Mars trip. Problem is that darned 'money'. I guess Bill Gates could set up his own space armada though.

Earth is already a subsidiary of Microsoft.  If they get Mars, they might be close to a monopoly.
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Death 999
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2004, 07:25:43 pm »

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Maybe "blow up Earth" means "render it inhabitbale" or maybe it's just one of those fairy tales. If so, then I'm sorry for spreading disinformation.


Well, we do have about six times more than enough to render the Earth uninhabitable to humans. So in that sense it's no fairy tale.



Quote
Negative energy? That sounds interesting...
So if I "heated up" water with negative energy, it would not only freaze but become so cold that it would anti-boil?


Well, hmm. Well, I can answer at least part of that: there is no such thing as anti-boiling, so that's not right.
Look, here's an article... it doesn't look too technical.

http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormhole.html
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2004, 07:34:26 pm »

Sending convicts:  Worked for Australia

Psychological studies of people in enclosed spaces & long periods?  Look at Atomic Submerine crews and Antarctic Scientists.

No anti-boiling?  What pray-tell is condensation?  Grin
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Death 999
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Re: Mars...the next Fontier?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2004, 01:14:01 am »

He spoke of it as a step colder than freezing. Nice try.
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