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Topic: Mars...the next Fontier? (Read 25095 times)
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Chrispy
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I think the point is that people dont do that.
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Chrispy
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I ment falcon's point
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Defender
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do microwaves origins, have something to do with a chocolate bar, i believe? hint, hint...
~DEFIANT
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 10:27:50 am by DEFIANT »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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But from mars, transmissions to earth will be cut off for something like 4 months
I presume this would be due to the sun being in the way? We would definitely want a relay at one of the relevant Lagrange points to keep contact.
and the transmission lag for the answer to your statement will be more than 8 hours!
Mars is on average 1.5 times as far away from the sun as Earth is. It takes 8 minutes for light to get from the Sun to the Earth. Neither of these orbits are highly elliptical, so we can assume the typical value for rough estimates. Assuming the worst case, that Mars and Earth are on opposite sides of the sun, and we have a relay satellite at one of Earth's Lagrange points, then we are looking at a distance of 25 and a half light-minutes (up from the 20 light minutes it would take if the path could go by the sun instead).
Since the signal also has to get back, there is a total delay of about 51 minutes. This would make a pretty slow IM conversation, that is for sure. But it's no 8 hours (that is the delay we'd expect if we were talking to someone sitting on Neptune)
Assuming the best case (Earth and Mars on same side of orbit) the delay would be 4 minutes, as you said.
What has me confused is that you differentiated between pulsed laser and whatever other form of communication would take 8 hours. What is this slower medium?
I wouldn't go out there in the spaceships humankind is currently able to build.
No surprises there. But if we work on it for ten years, maybe we can come up with something usable.
Oh, and I bet that exactly for the reasons you say, for such a long voyage we won't be sending two or three people -- we'll be sending enough to form a small community (8 or more). That alleviates the situation of the guy in Mir, who had no more than two companions for any stretch of time. If two people stop liking each other, they can realistically stop talking for a while without the entire place breaking down.
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NECRO-99
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First off, I don't think breaking glass is a "serious" modification. It can be replaced. Secondly, the point I'm trying to get across... What does a microwave do?
It cooks anything it hits.
Microwaves are a small, boxed and untracking version of shortwave RADAR. Sailors with ships that had radar, primarily those in Korea and Vietnam (very few in WWII) would cook hot dogs by taking a wooden stick, stabbing the hot dog, and holding it in front of the dish. It only took three seconds; any longer than that and the hot dog would either catch fire or explode.
Take a basic home microwave. You don't need the glass in the door for it to work, all you need is the door's latch to secure; the contact is made and the thing'll fire up. Next, put a piece of metal in the microwave. Not tinfoil it bends waaay too easy and wouldn't be able to focus the beam. An old metal plate or a spoon would do. (CD's are amusing, I might add.  ) When you turn the microwave on, the waves will hit the metal object and scatter. Hitting a spoon (an object with a definite concave shape) will slightly scatter the waves, but most will go to wherever the deepest point of the spoon is fixated upon.
My point? You can wear all the Kevlar you want; it won't matter when you're internal organs are all reaching 300 degrees. These things CAN be made into weapons. Microwaves came FROM military grade equipment, obviously a microwave as we know it wouldn't be too effective as a combat tool, but you take one of those shortwave RADAR dishes, amplify the signal, and aim it at soft, fleshy things, and you'll have a weapon plus some boiling human bodies lying about.
ADD: I did a little further research into the Korean/Vietnam era radar dishes. Most dishes were about eight feet wide, three feet tall, and had a spread ratio of 1 ft:2 ft, 1 foot out from the dish made the beam 2 feet wider/taller. It would only be effective at, oh, 100 yards, but I think that the ability to instantly boil a football field is quite a bit more dangerous than a gun or a knife.
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 08:06:05 pm by NECRO-99 »
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I love being a clone. Everything I do bad gets blamed on the real me!
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NECRO-99
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However have you lookd up how much power the model you are talking about uses? Let me tell you what - no battery the size of Texas is going to power that thing for long. (OK- a major exageration - but you get my point)
Actually, a diesel powered, 1960's technology battleship was able to power it with ease.
For instance, which would you rather have for a weapon, a radar dish or a daisy cutter?
Apples vs. Oranges. Both weapons, sure, but they have very different applications.
Also Radar waves can be block very easily with even powerful waves being blocked by less than a half inch of metal (with lead I think).
A: The metal still gets hot, and would cook the people wearing them, except it'd be like cooking a can.
B: Lead? Riiight. Like the military is going to get the infantry to wear lead suits. Not only is lead fuggin' heavy, it's toxic.
(Oh - My microwave detects when the glass is fractured - I don't know how - It is not fancy at all)
Oh good God, don't tell me you actually tried[/b] that?!
Something I might note is that you wouldn't be using a "microwave food cooker", you would be using a "microwave RADAR dish".
Specify. If you keep using broad terms like "microwave", I'll keep doing things like this.
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I love being a clone. Everything I do bad gets blamed on the real me!
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Ikidomari
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*Enjoy the Sauce*
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I was just reading throught this particular discussion and I would have to agree...with both of you. A standard comsumer-styled microwave oven can be used as a weapon...but only after minor modifications. Such modifications would be removing the glass as well as disabling the circutry that controls the cracked-glass detector. It would also require a wave guide to propperly direct the radiation output. This, of course, creates a problem, since wave guides generally run about $1000 per linear foot and are exceptionally fragile. This is, however, highly impracticle.
I believe this argument started with saying that there were several technological innovations that did not lead to the development of weapons or origionally come from weapon development. This is only partially true as most technological advancements came from people poking into advanced technology. Due to our races ingrained war-like tendencies, a good 90% of our technological advances are origionally plotted from military useage, but not necessarilly as weapons.
Also, just as an afterthought, the mention of needing a diesle-powered battleship to power a radar is, of course, talking about old-school technology. As our technology advances, we find ways to make things more powerful and smaller. It's called Micronization. Now, I'm not saying that we currently possess the ability to make a directed microwave cannon small enough to be man-portable, but I do recongnize that, in all likelyhood, we will be able to sometime in the next 15-25 years. That's not all that far away in the grand scheam of things.
Edit: Spelling corrections...
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 09:45:29 pm by Ikidomari »
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*BOOM!*
"...And another one bites the dust!" *starts dancing*
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Lukipela
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I have to say I find your debate quite amusing, its more fun to follow from the sideline.
If I was to venture into the debate, I'd skip the whole microwave thing and point out that Necro is correct insofar that most technological advances sem to come from warfare. A lot of things, from inflatable rafts to pocket knives were designed with military use in mind, and we all know why they wanted nuclear fission...
Interesting question on the microwave subject though (and I have done NO research into this, but since you have I figure two bright boys like you can answer this). If it as Necro states is that easy to construct a microwave weapon, why aren't they used? Sounds like they'd be a whole lot better than conventional firearms...
EDIT: just to be at least vaguely on topic, I'd like to point out another good reason for heading off to Mars. Excepting the fact that we are, as has been stated, quite capable of eradicating ourselves, there are other threats. D_999 mentioned asteroids, and how they can destroy cities. They might also be able to destroy worlds. Not in the explode sense, but you know, dustclouds, ice ages, "Armageddon" kind things. And if that happenms, we ahve all our eggs in one basket. We need to get a large portion of our species out there, if we wish to be ensured of the survival of said species.
Simple survival instinct. We need to get the hell out.
EDIT 2: And someone beat me to it. Fine, see if I ever talk in this topic again.
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« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 09:49:08 pm by Lukipela »
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What's up doc?
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