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Topic: 'They' cannot see you now. (Read 44018 times)
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CrowZone
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Still, the point is valid. The Arilou didn't WANT to win the first war, they just wanted to make sure Earthlings didn't get slaughtered.
They probably knew about the Ur-quan slave shielding defeated races and therefore didn't really want to do all that much in the first wars - knowing (in their Arilou wisdom) that Humanity would choose to be slave shield.
The Arilou probably just joined with the Alliance to make sure things worked out the way they did.
Just because they didn't doesn't mean they can't.
REMEMBER, in SC2 -- The Commander of the starbase mentions that the ARilou just POPPED into space near the starbase with some ships for you
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lightman
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However Orz is probably a projection *finger* into our universe by some form of entity which resides in a dimension relatively beneath our native one. Remember, we do not *see* Orz bubbles, but we obviously percieve them.
I should think it's an established fact that the Orz are a projection of some entity's "fingers", since this is what TFB has said.
Now Orz watched the Androsynth and wants to help Androsynth. So, Orz does what it feels is best! It starts pulling Androsynth into Orz's dimension, or another dimension, safe from the *they*. Orz, not really having comprehension of Death (hence, combat is always *dancing* or something fun) pull every bit of Androsynth they can find, living, dead, decaying -- everything) After all, Orz wants to help every other *slider* it can find, it probably did so with the Taalo (more on that later).
So Orz pulls the Androsynth out of Realspace -- The Androsynth probably had no idea what was going on and reacted negatively -- And now Orz is hiding the Androsynth. To further protect them, Orz does not want to talk about the Androsynth incase *they* finds them again.
Unlikely. "Snagged" hardly gives the impression of someone trying to pull another from danger. Also, if they were trying to help, there would be little reason to get upset at the mention of the Androsynth. Orz did not help the Taalo. They found the Taalo "playground" which allows them to "slide" to "pretty space" where the Taalo hid themselves from the Dnyarri.
I think you misinterpret Orz. Orz seems mainly interested in "parties", not helping other races. Orz doesn't mind blowing up Vux or humans or anyone else that it does not get along with. If it has no concept of death, why would it care about "protecting" some race? Plus when you get into hostile relationships with Orz (and it is obviously hostile) then it attacks you. It knows what it's doing.
When asked, why the Arilou are in realspace again (outside of looking after us) they mention they are here catching *Nggn*. When pressed about the *Nggn* the Arilou brush humans off and don't really want to explain it. However, I get the impression that the *Nggn* and Orz's the They or Them are one and the same.
...
Arilou describe the *Nggn* is meant to make the captian not really think they're important. Arilou don't want us to even contemplate looking for the *Nggn* because if we do, then the *Nggn* will find us! Bad news.
You are mixing two different discussions. The Arilou talk about *Nnngn* in a completely different way than they do about the "parasites". They simply say that *Nnngn* are not relevant to humans. Humans can't trap them and the Arilou say "I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough." This is not a description or a warning about the harmful things that we do not know the names of.
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CrowZone
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I should think it's an established fact that the Orz are a projection of some entity's "fingers", since this is what TFB has said.
Unlikely. "Snagged" hardly gives the impression of someone trying to pull another from danger. Also, if they were trying to help, there would be little reason to get upset at the mention of the Androsynth. Orz did not help the Taalo. They found the Taalo "playground" which allows them to "slide" to "pretty space" where the Taalo hid themselves from the Dnyarri.
I think you misinterpret Orz. Orz seems mainly interested in "parties", not helping other races. Orz doesn't mind blowing up Vux or humans or anyone else that it does not get along with. If it has no concept of death, why would it care about "protecting" some race? Plus when you get into hostile relationships with Orz (and it is obviously hostile) then it attacks you. It knows what it's doing.
You are mixing two different discussions. The Arilou talk about *Nnngn* in a completely different way than they do about the "parasites". They simply say that *Nnngn* are not relevant to humans. Humans can't trap them and the Arilou say "I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough." This is not a description or a warning about the harmful things that we do not know the names of.
1st) The Orz might be protecting Androsynth from a fate worse then death. It doesn't need a concept of Death to fear something. The Arilou are similar, they don't want to protect humanity from death at all, but they do want to protect Humanity from SOME entity specifically.
2nd) When pressed about the Androsynth, Orz becomes angry. If they did help "HIDE" the Androsynth from this Entity, they might not want to let anyone find out about where they hid them! So yes, they do become more aggressive but it might be a protective measure. Like when someone is caught between a baby bear and its mother. That mother is gonna smack you down.
3rd) Of course the Arilou aren't going to tell you what the *Nggn* are! They don't want you to even become interested in trying to find them. The recurring theme in almost all Arilou talk is that they can't tell you too much because you might start to think and explore concepts which will attract the attention of some entity that they fear. So, they mention they're here catching *Nggn* which we shouldn't be concerned with. Why would TFB bring it up at all if not to make is go "Hmmmm"
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lightman
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1st) The Orz might be protecting Androsynth from a fate worse then death. It doesn't need a concept of Death to fear something. The Arilou are similar, they don't want to protect humanity from death at all, but they do want to protect Humanity from SOME entity specifically.
2nd) When pressed about the Androsynth, Orz becomes angry. If they did help "HIDE" the Androsynth from this Entity, they might not want to let anyone find out about where they hid them! So yes, they do become more aggressive but it might be a protective measure. Like when someone is caught between a baby bear and its mother. That mother is gonna smack you down.
3rd) Of course the Arilou aren't going to tell you what the *Nggn* are! They don't want you to even become interested in trying to find them. The recurring theme in almost all Arilou talk is that they can't tell you too much because you might start to think and explore concepts which will attract the attention of some entity that they fear. So, they mention they're here catching *Nggn* which we shouldn't be concerned with. Why would TFB bring it up at all if not to make is go "Hmmmm"
1st> And Orz might not. What would it fear if it has no concept of death? Why would it "pull" the Androsynth into a dimension it doesn't want to be in? The fact that it attacks anyone that talks about them gives little support to the idea of Orz protecting anyone. What are you basing your comments about the Arilou on? It is clear that they want to protect humans. When do they say they don't want to protect humans from death?
2nd> As before, there is nothing to suggest that Orz is protecting anyone and more evidence that it doesn't care what happens to other races. Orz clearly knows that "dissolving" is not good, but you suggest that it does this instead of just saying it can't talk about the Androsynth because it's trying to protect them? And Orz calls the Androsynth "silly" which is obviously bad. It also says that it is "...happiest days to not care about Androsynth..." It looks more like whatever happened to the Androsynth was bad and Orz wants to forget about it.
3rd> I did not say anything about the Arilou telling humans what *Nnngn* are. I said you were mixing two different ideas/conversations. The Arilou say that *Nnngn* are irrelevant, not dangerous. That would still make people go "hmmm". Just like the Black Spathi Squadron which does not exist in the game, among other mysteries they leave open. And then there is the matter of the ominous inferences in the conversations with Orz...
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CrowZone
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1st> And Orz might not. What would it fear if it has no concept of death? Why would it "pull" the Androsynth into a dimension it doesn't want to be in? The fact that it attacks anyone that talks about them gives little support to the idea of Orz protecting anyone. What are you basing your comments about the Arilou on? It is clear that they want to protect humans. When do they say they don't want to protect humans from death?
2nd> As before, there is nothing to suggest that Orz is protecting anyone and more evidence that it doesn't care what happens to other races. Orz clearly knows that "dissolving" is not good, but you suggest that it does this instead of just saying it can't talk about the Androsynth because it's trying to protect them? And Orz calls the Androsynth "silly" which is obviously bad. It also says that it is "...happiest days to not care about Androsynth..." It looks more like whatever happened to the Androsynth was bad and Orz wants to forget about it.
3rd> I did not say anything about the Arilou telling humans what *Nnngn* are. I said you were mixing two different ideas/conversations. The Arilou say that *Nnngn* are irrelevant, not dangerous. That would still make people go "hmmm". Just like the Black Spathi Squadron which does not exist in the game, among other mysteries they leave open. And then there is the matter of the ominous inferences in the conversations with Orz...
You gotta remember everything we're doing here is speculating and interpreting.
1) You, me, most mortal beings can't contemplate fear without death, but that doesn't mean immortal things aren't fearful. Arilou mention on numerous occasions they are changing our *smell* to protect us from some entity. They don't implicitly imply this entity will kill us, just that us Meeting this entity would be bad.
2) Silly doesn't have to have a 'bad' connotation. It can mean, well SILLY, like they act in a peculiar manner. That is more telling in my opinoin. If Orz is trying to help the Androsynth, and the Androsynth misinterpret this, then Orz might think the Androsynth are Silly for making things so difficult!
3) My whole point about the Arilou and the *Nggn* is that the Arilou dismiss them as irrelevant. If you think something is irrelevant you'd be less inclined to investigate it further. The Arilou would never tell a human if the *Nggn* were dangerous! Humans are curious and would therefore investigate further. So, the Arilou say (And I paraphrase here) "oh, the Nggn? Don't worry about them, they're not important -- besides you couldn't even see them or touch them anyways -- forget I mentioned it."
I understand that this interpretation goes against the grain of what is commonly thought about the Orz and Arilou equation, but if anything else I've learned from SC2, is that TFB went into great detail with their stories, and just because something SEEMS the way it does, doesn't make it true.
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« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 10:25:53 pm by CrowZone »
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lightman
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You gotta remember everything we're doing here is speculating and interpreting.
1) You, me, most mortal beings can't contemplate fear without death, but that doesn't mean immortal things aren't fearful. Arilou mention on numerous occasions they are changing our *smell* to protect us from some entity. They don't implicitly imply this entity will kill us, just that us Meeting this entity would be bad.
2) Silly doesn't have to have a 'bad' connotation. It can mean, well SILLY, like they act in a peculiar manner. That is more telling in my opinoin. If Orz is trying to help the Androsynth, and the Androsynth misinterpret this, then Orz might think the Androsynth are Silly for making things so difficult!
3) My whole point about the Arilou and the *Nggn* is that the Arilou dismiss them as irrelevant. If you think something is irrelevant you'd be less inclined to investigate it further. The Arilou would never tell a human if the *Nggn* were dangerous! Humans are curious and would therefore investigate further. So, the Arilou say (And I paraphrase here) "oh, the Nggn? Don't worry about them, they're not important -- besides you couldn't even see them or touch them anyways -- forget I mentioned it."
I understand that this interpretation goes against the grain of what is commonly thought about the Orz and Arilou equation, but if anything else I've learned from SC2, is that TFB went into great detail with their stories, and just because something SEEMS the way it does, doesn't make it true.
Yes but there is a difference between speculation based on something and pure speculation.
1. They don't blow us up to stop us.
2. It's *silly* and the Vux are also *silly* when Orz decided to blow them up until the Arilou came in and stopped it. Humans are also *silly* when Orz gets mad and attacks.
3. Of course they would tells humans if they were dangerous! They tell humans about the "parasites"! "Them"!
What are you basing this "common grain" on? I've seen arguments both ways, and I am not sure I can say one is more dominant than the other. Yes, TFB worked hard on the story, and that story suggests something other than the Orz just being a nice, helpful race. They wanted a creepy, ominous race and they succeeded.
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CrowZone
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1) no, the Arilou don't blow us up to stop us, But remember they've been studying Humanity for a long time and have a great understanding of us. Orz on the other hand, might not really understand that humans are individual beings, or it might on an intellectual level believe this, but figure that when it blows up a ship, its merely smacking the hands of a greater entity. So blowing up a ship, to Orz isn't really a big deal, its just like a smack on the bottom. Of course, if you press TOO much, then Orz realizes there's nothing that can be done and will just "smack" at any human it finds because it figures we can't learn from its form of discipline.
Vux are Silly and Humans are Silly? Of course Orz thinks anyone trying to interfere with them are silly! (Though I'm not sure where the Vux being silly is mentioned)
Thats the point, The * * translations are best fit, and are often more literal then interpretive. Its not that *Silly* means something else to an Orz, its just the best word to fit what Orz is trying to say.
If you don't understand WHY someone is doing something, and it goes contrary to what your trying to do, its quite possible that you would say they're acting 'silly'
As for the Arilou telling us if something was dangerous? What makes you th8ink that? If you believe Arilou are 100% trustworthy, well, then you believe that -- I personally don't Remember, these are supposed to be the Aliens goin around anal probing Humans in the 1900's  They pretty much always act vague and mysterious regarding everything, and all we have is their word that whatever they're doing is in our best interest. The Orz and the Arilou BOTH seem to have hidden purposes. Neither race really likes one another much, though Orz seems to take it in a more playfull manner then the Arilou.
Yes the Orz are creepy in the way things are comming off -- Creepy in a Childlike way -- kinda like the kid in pet cemetary. But at the same token, wouldn't it be CREEPIER story wise if Orz ISNT inherently evil? I think so. People have all these pre-concieved notions, with little in the way of evidence (other then circumstantial and missunderstandings) that Orz is evil - wouldn't it blow your mind if they're not?
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« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 11:31:40 pm by CrowZone »
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Culture20
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This:
Part of what we do on Earth is for your own protection.
There are parasites. Creatures who dwell Beyond.
They have names, but you do not know them. They would like to find you
but they are blind to your presence... unless you show yourselves.
The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.
This sounds creepy. Please go on.
No. In a way, ignorance is your armor, your best protection.
They cannot see you now. They cannot smell you.
Much of our work with your people involved making you invisible... changing your smell.
If I tell you more, you will look where you could never look before
and while you are looking you can and will be seen.
You do not want to be seen.
sounds starkly different from this:
What are you exploring for in these `easy places'?
We seek to trap *Nnngn*, but they dart and leap.
YOU cannot trap *Nnngn*... do not even try.
I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough.
Okay, you trap these nungy things. Then what?
Why we let them go, of course! *Nnngn* do not like to be confined!
Captain, these things we talk about... they are unimportant to you... they are as dreams.
Our words should address your universe... not ours.
The nungy things are _not_ the parasites, because the Arilou talk to us about them. The Arilou wouldn't have said as much as they did about the nungy unless they considered them harmless to us. They know how curious we are, and they also know that we are grown-up enough to listen to a warning. If we were told about a magical *phlarr*, but we couldn't touch the *phlarr*, we'd try and find a way to touch it. If they told us that the *phlarr* would kill us, they know that we wouldn't try to touch it. This is what they did with the Parasites (which they mention in the same paragraph as the Orz).
They also let the nungies go after they have been caught. The best explanation is that they are the interdimenional equivilant to a Butterfly.
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lightman
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1) no, the Arilou don't blow us up to stop us, But remember they've been studying Humanity for a long time and have a great understanding of us. Orz on the other hand, might not really understand...
Orz might not understand the full impact of what it does, but that does not reflect its intentions. Its intentions are clearly negative. At one point it says more or less, "if you ask about the Androsynth again, it will be bad and I will attack and destroy you."
If you are say the question another time it is *frumple* too much and Orz are *dancing* for *dissolving* the *campers*.
Vux are Silly and Humans are Silly? Of course Orz thinks anyone trying to interfere with them are silly! (Though I'm not sure where the Vux being silly is mentioned)
First the VUX, but they are such *silly cows* they ask so much about the Androsynth we must *dance* with them. Then we can *smell* the Arilou. Again they are *jumping in front*. It is always! Nnnnggaaahhhhh!
Thats the point, The * * translations are best fit, and are often more literal then interpretive. Its not that *Silly* means something else to an Orz, its just the best word to fit what Orz is trying to say.
* * indicates that the translation is questionable. The point is not the precise meaning of *silly* but that the Orz calls beings *silly* that it blows up.
As for the Arilou telling us if something was dangerous? What makes you th8ink that?
Are you just ignoring what they say in the game and what I write here? They do tell humans about the "parasites"! That is what makes me think they would tell humans. They actually do it! What more do you need?
They also warn the player about the Dnyarri. Plus, look at this quote:
Do not trust the Orz, my Human Captain. They are dangerous.
Another warning. The Arilou even use the very word! "Dangerous"!
Yes the Orz are creepy in the way things are comming off -- Creepy in a Childlike way -- kinda like the kid in pet cemetary. But at the same token, wouldn't it be CREEPIER story wise if Orz ISNT inherently evil? I think so. People have all these pre-concieved notions, with little in the way of evidence (other then circumstantial and missunderstandings) that Orz is evil - wouldn't it blow your mind if they're not?
No. What are these "pre-conceived notions"? You seem to ignore what evidence there is, anyway, prefering to speculate without any at all.
Again, where are you getting this from? Who said that Orz is inherently evil? I certainly did not. TFB wanted to make the player unsure of Orz - whether to trust it or not. But Orz is responsible for the Androsynth disappearing. That is indisputable. What the game seems to suggest is that this happened in a bad way, and that Orz understands that and wants to forget it. Orz never wants to go back to that dimension.
To Culture20:
Exactly! There is a big difference in how they talk about the two.
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« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 05:35:23 am by lightman »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Remember, the portal spawner could pick you UP from anywhere, but could only drop you off in one of 16 locations.
REMEMBER, in SC2 -- The Commander of the starbase mentions that the ARilou just POPPED into space near the starbase with some ships for you
Well, let's look at it another way.
We are many places, at many *times*. This place is an easy place... one of the ten easy places.
Note that 10 is not vaguely close to the number of quasispace exits (15 normal ones, plus the unstable one and their homeworld). This suggests that their easy places are different. Since they have been investigating Earth for a LOONG time, it seems likely that Earth is an easy place. Furthermore, the only other time the story has them popping up out of nowhere completely, that was also in Earth orbit (immediately upon Earth signing the alliance with the Chenjesu).
Alternately, even if Earth is not an easy place, they sure have a lot of practice with navigating to it even if it is not such an easy place.
******
As for the Orz, the protective idea is plausible, but relies on the Orz' difficulty with social behavior.
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« Last Edit: February 17, 2004, 08:20:39 pm by Death_999 »
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Praetor
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Remember, the portal spawner could pick you UP from anywhere, but could only drop you off in one of 16 locations.
True, but remember, the portal spawner wasn't truly Arliou technology. It was a hybrid of their tech and Ur-Quan technology for use with the Precursor vessel. It had a limited power supply. The spawner wasn't made to the specifications of 'pure' Arliou spawners, hence its limits.
As for the first war, yes, Arliou could teleport behind enemy lines. Did they do this often? No. Virtually any defensive installation would pick them off with defensive weapons or their shielding would be too strong for the lasers of the Arliou Skiffs. Remember, the Skiffs are science and exploration vessels, not full scale warships. They go boom pretty fast.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Virtually any defensive installation would pick them off with defensive weapons or their shielding would be too strong for the lasers of the Arliou Skiffs.
Gee, I remember them blowing up mines, colonies, and fortifications pretty handily in SC1. And since that was one of the main things Skiffs were good for (bypassing fortifications to blow up mines and colonies), you'd think it would be a pretty lousy tactical simulator if it got that wrong.
The issue is, they had to do it the 'hard' way, flying through space with little teleport hops -- not just materialize anywhere at whim.
Remember, the Skiffs are science and exploration vessels, not full scale warships.
I try not to remember that which is false. The number of ways the Arilou kick ass in a fight is larger than one. Anyway, I am not sure that the Arilou really have science anymore, though I am sure they have exploration.
They go boom pretty fast.
Or was that their teleport wake?
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 08:07:11 pm by Death_999 »
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Ivan Ivanov
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Note that 10 is not vaguely close to the number of quasispace exits (15 normal ones, plus the unstable one and their homeworld). This suggests that their easy places are different.
The 10 easy places might be the rainbow worlds. I think there was a rainbow world near the Arilou.
Since they have been investigating Earth for a LOONG time, it seems likely that Earth is an easy place. Furthermore, the only other time the story has them popping up out of nowhere completely, that was also in Earth orbit (immediately upon Earth signing the alliance with the Chenjesu).
I think that this little quote kind of proves that Arilou CAN move all around the galaxy through quasispace:
COMMANDER HAYES:
They possess some technique for moving REALLY fast through HyperSpace.
They never let us know what it was, but it sure beat the pants off our fastest ships
Gee, I remember them blowing up mines, colonies, and fortifications pretty handily in SC1. And since that was one of the main things Skiffs were good for (bypassing fortifications to blow up mines and colonies), you'd think it would be a pretty lousy tactical simulator if it got that wrong.
I'm affraid that SC1 is no simulator of any kind so P&F didn't have to worry about realism (no wonder, it's a comic-like space shoot'em-up), they even didn't have to worry about plot inconsistencies because SC1 hardly has a plot.
I think that the reason why Arilou couldn't go anywhere thay wanted in SC1 is very simple - game balance. It would be *silly* if P&F had to limit the plot of SC2 because of a game balance issue of SC1
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Culture20
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Also, the Arilou teleports in combat are short-range hyperspace jumps (physically impossible for other ships), not quasi-jumps (no access to quasispace from truespace & vice versa). Hyperjumps are the explanation that the SC1 manual gives for the teleports; and works better with the sc-psuedo-physics we know.
Just saw Ivan's post:
No rainbow world in the Arliou's sphere.
All Hayes' statement means is that they know a way to get around HS quickly (doesn't mean _everywhere_ in HS). The only observed behaviour could have been traveling "instantly" into Chenjesu/Ilwrath space after just having been in Earth-space, or something just as miraculous. It offers no extra proof that they can choose an arbitrary destination.
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 09:03:22 pm by Culture20 »
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