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Author Topic: 'They' cannot see you now.  (Read 37352 times)
Death 999
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2004, 10:06:22 pm »

You missed MY point, which was that (EDIT: is is quite possible that) either Earth is one of these easy places, or they have mapped out the hard route to Earth by long practice. So even if Earth isn't an easy place, then while technically they could jump anywhere in space, they don't know most places in space well enough to actually DO it.

I was initially skeptical of the rainbow worlds idea: I thought of it and discarded it when thinking about the quasispace exits. When you mentioned it,  I realized that the Precursors may have used the easy places and the rainbow worlds would be related.

However, while there is a rainbow world kind of near Arilou space, it's a solid 5 days of hyperspace at max speed from the periodic quasispace portal. Its distance from Arilou space is roughly equal to Arilou space's diameter. This is kind of far to be considered the same place.


As for SC1, if you read the manual, it is supposed to be a tactical and strategic simulator used at Star Control (the C&C operation of Earth) to train their commanders. As such, I figured the ships' abilities represented in at least some vague sense the abilities of the ships. Even if we toss that out, it still stands to reason that the hierarchy could not adequately defend every single mine all the time.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 07:04:52 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2004, 10:47:32 pm »

Quote
edit: Oh, by the way - from the quote I mentioned and the quote about Arilou popping out of nowhere you actually could conclude that they CAN pick an arbitraty destination
But remember; that's truespace, not HS.  they can make a short-range TS jump through HS, but QS doesn't touch TS.  So, unless further evidence presents itself (about ariliou TS<->QS tech, Falayalaralfali not withstanding), one can't conclude that they can make arbitrary jumps.  It's easier to say that they use HS to make these showy 'ports (esp. since it _is_ in the SC1 manual).

To get to earth: or by-pass fortifications:  The Arilou use QS to get close to Sol (the regular portal we choose), HS closer to Sol, then they spend a couple seconds time on the calculations (something they can't do in combat; they just randomly 'port) then they HS-jump into place for "effect".  Note that the VUX do something similar at the start of combat (regarding the calculations, they can't do a short-range HS-jump).

Edit: Imagine an Arilou ship with a VUX mathematician aboard:
The skiff could 'port in combat immediately next to the opponent if the special button is pressed long enough, then 'port out at random when dodging
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 10:53:33 pm by Culture20 » Logged
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2004, 05:55:46 pm »

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You missed MY point, which was that either Earth is one of these easy places, or they have mapped out the hard route to Earth by long practice. So even if Earth isn't an easy place, then while technically they could jump anywhere in space, they don't know most places in space well enough to actually DO it.


I'm sorry but, how do you know, that they don't know them well enough. They are an ancient race. They had a lot of time for exploring. The fact that we didn't see them jump out of nowhere anywhere else is not an argument.

Quote
I was initially skeptical of the rainbow worlds idea: I thought of it and discarded it when thinking about the quasispace exits. When you mentioned it,  I realized that the Precursors may have used the easy places and the rainbow worlds would be related.


Hmm.. I always thought that the rainbow worlds were just waste dumps and the *easy places* around and many other things were just side effects (but then again the rainbow worlds form a pattern, hmmm)

Quote
However, while there is a rainbow world kind of near Arilou space, it's a solid 5 days of hyperspace at max speed from the periodic quasispace portal. Its distance from Arilou space is roughly equal to Arilou space's diameter. This is kind of far to be considered the same place.


Far? If it was Ur-Quan's space diameter I would agree, I would even agree if it anybode else's space diameter, but Arilou have the smallest sphere of influence while the raibow world's event horrison might be quite big.

Quote
As for SC1, if you read the manual, it is supposed to be a tactical and strategic simulator used at Star Control (the C&C operation of Earth) to train their commanders. As such, I figured the ships' abilities represented in at least some vague sense the abilities of the ships. Even if we toss that out, it still stands to reason that the hierarchy could not adequately defend every single mine all the time.


Again it is just a game and it needs balnce to be fun. And in my opinion Arilou beeing able to pass fortification is a some vague representation of them beeing able to go where they want.

Quote
But remember; that's truespace, not HS.  they can make a short-range TS jump through HS, but QS doesn't touch TS.  So, unless further evidence presents itself (about ariliou TS<->QS tech, Falayalaralfali not withstanding)


Hold on there! Why not?
If they can make a TrueSpace pocket in QuasiSpace the size of a planet, then why couldn't they make a straight QS->TS jump. Such a jump in a small ship would need far less energy then keeping a planet-sized hole in a dimension.

Quote
Edit: Imagine an Arilou ship with a VUX mathematician aboard:
The skiff could 'port in combat immediately next to the opponent if the special button is pressed long enough, then 'port out at random when dodging


Mathematician?
Don't you think that an ancient race of inter-stellar and inter-dimensional travellers are smart enough to invent a PC?
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2004, 07:04:20 pm »

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I'm sorry but, how do you know, that they don't know them well enough. They are an ancient race. They had a lot of time for exploring. The fact that we didn't see them jump out of nowhere anywhere else is not an argument.


The point of my argument (which I did lose track of for a moment, now corrected) is that the mere fact that they can do it at Earth is not a proof that they can do it anywhere. I was COUNTER-arguing.

Quote
Far? If it was Ur-Quan's space diameter I would agree, I would even agree if it anybode else's space diameter, but Arilou have the smallest sphere of influence while the raibow world's event horrison might be quite big.


Yes, but if you are in a location because of something, then you think you would actually be AT it instead of congregating at such a range that your mean distance to it is twice as much as your mean distance from each other, right? Considering that Arilou space IS centered on the recurring quasispace portal, it seems overwhelmingly likely that that is the easy place, not the vaguely nearby rainbow world.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2004, 07:05:13 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2004, 12:49:59 am »

Ivan, I think he meant attaching the VUX Intruder's Thrust Nacelles to a Skiff to allow it to teleport next to an opponent, zappify, and 'port away again quickly.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2004, 01:11:32 am »

I think he meant that the VUX used advanced mathematics to make more detailed hyperspace calculations, rather than using better hardware.

I'd be inclined toward a combination of the two.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2004, 01:48:24 am »

Maybe they use mathematics to make better hardware Grin
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2004, 01:59:32 am »

From the SC1 manual (SC2 manual does not mention how the Intruder does this):
Quote
The Intruders are capable of appearing in Truespace
adjacent to any enemy vessel; the crews' navigational abil-
ities make the sneak attack a favorite tactic of these bipedal
nasties.

Suppose I should have said navigator instead of mathematician.
That quote also answers a question I had in another thread; VUX are bipeds.


QS<->TS:  the reason I said "Falayalaralfali not withstanding" is because we don't know whether the Truespace eddy is a natural phenomenon or Arilou-created.  It was an SC3 plot that made the Arilou move from TS to QS;  SC2 Arilou might naturally be from QS.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2004, 09:35:37 am »

Though this may not solve the problem of what happened to the Androsynth at home, consider this. If people really want to see some more Androsynth, then why can't they ask the Ur-Quan for some? Think about it: Dreadnaughts are crewed by members of all thrall races, right? So it stands to reason that some Androsynth are still alive somewhere.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2004, 10:36:30 am »

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Though this may not solve the problem of what happened to the Androsynth at home, consider this. If people really want to see some more Androsynth, then why can't they ask the Ur-Quan for some? Think about it: Dreadnaughts are crewed by members of all thrall races, right? So it stands to reason that some Androsynth are still alive somewhere.


Because no matter what you will say to them or even if you will tell them dramaticly about the Androsynth that will make the Utwig suicide, they will attack you and then you have two options:
1. Die.
2. Kill everyone who is onboard the Dreadnaught. Might result in killing the last of the Synths. Bad idea.

For conclusion, don't fight the Ur-quan if you don't want to kill any Synths. Kill the black ones instead.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2004, 12:11:20 pm »

You could use a fleet of Penetrators to steal back the 'synths off the dreadnaughts if they were onboard, but the Arilou mention that there are no more Androsynth, only Orz.  That could mean no Androsynth anywhere in TS.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2004, 07:31:59 pm »

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Because no matter what you will say to them or even if you will tell them dramaticly about the Androsynth that will make the Utwig suicide...


What the hell do the Utwig have anything to do about it?

Quote
You could use a fleet of Penetrators to steal back the 'synths off the dreadnaughts if they were onboard, but the Arilou mention that there are no more Androsynth, only Orz.  That could mean no Androsynth anywhere in TS.


Facts:
1.) The Androsynth were *seen* by Orz after the 'synth opened their first IDF portal.
2.) The Orz didn't even know that this plane of existance, well, existed.
3.) The Orz *pull* Androsynth, making their planet a deserted wasteland.

This we all know. Now, think of it this way.
1.) The Orz can only *smell* Androsynth. No other races. They see *light reflections* of us, but not our *smell* (our material bodies, yes, but not our link to this existance [spirits, souls, whatever you prefer to call them]).
2.) All Androsynth are clones. One genetic strain, one *smell*.
3.) The Orz now have access to our reality, anytime, anywhere. They just have to *smell* someone to get to them.
4.) Any Androsynth on a Dreadnought would be able to be *smelled* by Orz, and therefore would be *pulled*.

Imagine how creepy it would be, sitting on a Dreadnought, and all of the sudden, all of the Androsynth start to scream and cuts begin appearing on their bodies. They get more and more of them until they suddenly fade out of existance. The Spathi would all probably have heart attacks on the spot. Tongue
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2004, 07:40:16 pm »

It was just an example, it is known that the Utwig are about to kill themself (if something bad happens) so I used them.
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2004, 03:25:12 pm »

If only one Androsynth vanished from a single Drednaught, but nobody actually saw it happen, the Ur-Quan could simply assume that he jumped ship and is probably dead*. However, if every Androsynth on all Drednaughts vanished (simultaneously or no), there's sure to be at least one other crewmember that saw it happen (and report the phenomenon). Even with the Doctrinal Conflict going on, I would think that the Ur-Quan would be prudent enough to send one ship to check up on the Androsynth (perhaps to see if their missing crew came back there).

Since the Ur-Quan never checked, that must mean that either only a few Androsynth vanished from their ships (not enough to warrant searching for them), or none of them did.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2004, 03:32:03 pm by sageallen » Logged
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Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2004, 11:11:25 pm »

Either that or the Ur-Quan stopped using Androsynth as Dreadnaught crew.
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