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Topic: The Orz, the Arilou and perhaps a New Idea. (Read 18238 times)
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Chrispy
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What if all the androsynth drowned???
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Chrispy
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I think I understand the liquid space. What is space in out dimention, is like the ocean in the orz dimention. Planates drift around in water. Stars would have to be made of liquid of solids to exist, since liquid is denser than gas (which is what stars are in out dimention... I think)
I incorectly dubed with fluidic space. Fluid is both liquid and gas. This space would be pure liquid.
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Death 999
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Well, it sounds like you're just saying that the universe in question is filled with a liquid. This is very different from saying that space itself is liquid.
In our space, the universe is homogeneous on length scales large enough to avoid quantum effects.
In a fluidic space, the universe would have to change nature, just by virtue of differing Reynolds number.
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Picowoof
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Indeed, good Sir Death, that is exactly what I am proposing and I'm aware of the implications. There is no evidence to the contrary that states that a dimensional breach woudln't wash else-physics into realspace, as this is fiction after all I thought it were fair to make a couple of safe estimates within my theories, that being one of them. This might not be true of our Universe but again, that is what seperates Science Fiction from Science Fact. The irony here of course is that it appears that verily, elsedimensional physics washing into our own Universe from other plains is accepted by some Scientific bodies as a valid theory. It's a funny old Universe, isn't it? And I say that in a most literary manner.
" - Orz are made of a form of matter which has coherent structures hundreds of times smaller than atoms"
Oh gosh, no! What I'm saying is that the Pre-Orz were made of a form of matter which has coherent structures hundreds of times smaller than atoms and what I shall henceforth call 'The Transition' involved them rebuilding themselves, in the process (because they are machines and have infinitely superiour intelligence capacities than biosacks and they learn... shall we say, much faster) they rebuilt themselves to the physics of our Universe as solid creatures. The Orz are now not the Androsynth, the Orz are not the Pre-Orz but the Orz are a symbiotic bonding of what the Androsynth were and what the Pre-Orz built with all the materials around them, considering probably only the brain of each Androsynth valuable enough to keep in its original state. After all, before the Orz could comprehend conscience or guilt, the Androsynth were just a 'resource', like any other and hence, they 'built' with them.
" - Their space is 'fluidic', whatever that means. Filled with a fluid? What would the assertion 'space itself is fluid' mean?"
One would imagine that this were purely logical and easy to grasp. Let us say you have a singularity which creates a gravity well in a spherical formation, similar to a gas giant but instead of gas, we fill it with fluid. Now let's say that the physics of pretty-space are different enough that instead of gasses, they have formed licquids. In this fluidic space, there are young wells which provide a gravitational center against the 'tidal waves' that might be evident in their Universe and that's where pockets of life would be found. I believe my theory is at least marginally valid because the Orz themselves refer to being overjoyed by the 'hard playgrounds' in our Universe. Now let's just assume that 'playgrounds' is a mistranslation of 'planets'. The Orz are overjoyed that indeed, our Universe has 'hard planets'. No I ask you, good Sir Death, utilizing a little conjecture and logic; what does this tell you about the home-dimension of the Pre-Orz? At the very least it tells you they have no hard planets, yes? Moreover, if they don't have hard planets, what do they have?
" - Androsynth experiments in IDF released the Orz into this dimension (few of us will debate that one)."
Almost a wholehearted 'Indeed!' can be issued here but I'd like to make a teensy-weensy minor correction, in my theories the Pre-Orz were released. A race that very quickly became the bewildered and new Orz, who were immediately wracked with grief over what they'd done but yet had the survival instinct of the Androsynth now, so they were unable to simply suicide over it, they had to get on with their lives and press out into space they did. I think it's this underlying guilt that leads them to be productive, which helps them in their efforts to be open and giving towards all strangers. They're trying to add a constructive presence in the place of what they took away, sort of a balancing of the Universe. If that makes sense to you at all? I would hope it does.
" - The Orz thought the Androsynth were something like things in their dimension (despite having a fundamentally different makeup), and tried to remake them into their familiar forms."
Afraid not, not in the least. You're quite a way off the mark with that one. Read what I'd said and enlightenment will come, or because I'm not lazy and I enjoy repetetive tasks, I will repeat myself again for your benefit! The Androsynth possess 'scannable intellect'. If these machines are capable of even partially translating our language, doesn't it stand to reason that they'd also be able to detect our intelligence patterns over an interdimensional rift? It makes sense to me. If they weren't able to translate us then indeed, I would have my doubts but since they are and in my theory, they're machines (which learn at an infinitely multiplied rate in comparison to us) then I think it's likely that they could 'smell' the Androsynth. As I said before, they were disappointed that the humans didn't 'smell' because that would mean that they weren't as intelligent as the Androsynth and unable to grasp things the Orz otherwise would've told them, yet they were relieved they didn't 'smell' because they knew their pre-Orz brothers back in fluidic space wouldn't be able to detect them. In essence, the Arilou altered the humans so their sentience patterns couldn't be read specifically by these pre-Orz.
" -- Why would the Androsynth begin seeing Poltergeists?"
"Look, minerals, let's break them down into their component parts. Dust-like on an atomic level where we can rebuild them as we wish." - Pre-Orz
"ACK! Strange moving clouds! They're the GHOSTS foretold of in our prophecies. Run away! No wait. We must DESTROY these ghosts!" - Androsynth
" -- Why would the Androsynth's KNOWLEDGE of this dimension be so dangerous? This was what the Arilou warned us against."
I shall repeat again for the sake of clarity! THEY can only see you when YOU can see them. As the game tells it. Here's how I tell it: They can only see you if you find a way to bust through to their Universe and scan them, so they can trace that back and scan (smell) you. The Science officer found a Dimensional-Breacher (which is why he was forced to blow up the building rather than simply delete the data files) and punched through, he scanned and THEY (the Pre-Orz) remembered the energy signatures of Androsynth scanners, they didn't bother to scan the human because they remembered they'd already done that and it would be inefficient and on some basic level, they were excited by the prospect. They came through and found that even though the humans didn't 'smell', they could still use them. This knowledge was a terrifying prospect, the Science Officer knew that they now KNEW this and so they could 'see' the humans even if they couldn't smell them. They knew they could be used even if they couldn't scan them. Yes?
" -- Why would the Orz, as described, be upset with the Arilou?"
As I'd said, I believe the Arilou might have been their creators. If you'd been created, then broken and abandoned and then left to prey on other races because your creator couldn't clean up their messes, wouldn't you be upset? On some level they might blame the Arilou for what had happened. That's one theory. The more likely theory is that the Arilou found fluidic space before the Pre-Orz existed and struck up formal relations with the people there. It's obvious the Arilou happily share whatever they believe you're capable of understanding and the Orz know that the Arilou can't be blamed for being generous but in the end, this generousity makes them 'more trouble' than they're worth. I believe, although roughly (due to translation), this is how the Orz described them. Far too troublesome -- because they butt in, interfere and then share. Perhaps if not for the Arilou, they wouldn't have been created and they'd have naught to feel guilty over. They can't really BLAME the Arilou but still... they are trouble.
" -- more to come."
Oh the humanity! <giggly> My apologies, I couldn't resist.
-- Edit --
Oh and before you ask, since this has just occurred to me (and an interesting thought it is, too); yes. I believe the Arilou have physics actuators. What are physics actuators? Well let's say the Arilou had cracked quantum physics, they were so far beyond us that they could rightfully patronize us like canines, "You opened the door, good Dog, good Dog! Have a biscuit." If that were the case then it's likely that they knew how to 'bottle' physics so they could safely travel into other dimensions. So their ships would have a 'physics bubble' in them which would prevent the physics of another dimension from affecting them, they created this on scans and observations of physics from other Universes washing into our own.
So the humans jump-system has physics actuators too which prevent the physics of other Universes affecting them. The Arilou also point out that they might've altered themselves to suit other sets of physics because they claimed humans weren't (solid enough) or perhaps 'cohesive enough to bear more than one set of physics'. If they allowed them to their homeworld unengineered, they might blow up in a fantastic display of "Oh my, THAT shouldn't exist here."
Furthermore, just to be utterly pedantic, it stands to reason that if entry into another dimensional set of physics would be dangerous, the Arilou wanting to pretect their humans so much probably would've left 'actuator drones' near the only natural entryway to protect the ship as long as it was in their dimension. It all just stands to reason really that if they have the capability of doing one, they also by default have the capability of doing the other which is not dissimilar in its nature.
-- Edit 2 --
An amusing side ponderance occurs (random thought encounter!). A friend of mine introduced me to the Daktaklakpak. Now don't consider this as part of my theory and also, I'm aware that SC3 is non-canon but it all ties in in a slightly amusing way. For example, if fluidic space were a testing grounds for the original Mother Ark, then these pieces might've been the original idea for the drones; hence their latent need for biology to function. It's just a passing idea that amuses me, that the Precursors might've been using another area of space-time as a sandbox to test ideas, which of course probably went horribly wrong and I'm still not suggesting this horribly wrong thing is what the Precursors might've been running from. No... of course not. That would be silly.
-- Edit 3 --
Hopefully this will be the Final Edit <perk>. I just wished to say that I by no means consider any questioning or picking-apart-thereof of my dreamy theorems to be confrontationalist, nor do I wish to be actively so towards why comrades here at the forums. Actually, I think you're all really quite neat. My reasoning behind this is that all theories and ideas grow from friendly interpersonal gestalts, much like sentience works in the brain. You cannot evolve with someone sitting around who likes to constantly enquire, "Are you sure? Are you sure?" There's no real evolution as a species without that and things become mired and stagnant.
So even if my responses aren't all 'yes, you're right' and 'indeed, of course, I agree' or perhaps 'my eyes have opened, why didn't I see that?' it doesn't mean that I would choose to fight your opinions (per se) or do anything of the sort! Keep them coming! I like having my theories picked at and I won't get all annoyed over it or anything, it's fun! Anyway, I just wished to say that because indeed, over the next few days my theories might get picked apart by the best of minds. Which makes me glad that's all they are; happy, pointless, irrelevant, meandering, dreamy theories.
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 11:38:42 pm by Picowoof »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Wow, your scatterbrainedness seems to have evaporated 100%. Also, 'sir' is unnecessary  ... D999 is fine as an abbreviation.
I get how sensible it is that different rules could apply in different universes and how rules from one universe could leak into another one. I read my Arthur C. Clarke.
The whole bit with the scale issue was just making sure we were on the same page, making sure you weren't thinking that this wasn't just ordinary matter. You now clearly don't, but you had not made that clear before.
So, to attempt to re-summarize:
- there was a pre-orz substance in a fluid space contacted by the Androsynth via IDF.
- upon contact, the pre-orz substance made havoc in Androsynth land because of its superior self-assembly abilities and its unseemly attraction to (Androsynth) sentience.
- This took the final form of creating the Orz out of the Androsynth (the Transition).
- after the Transition, the pre-Orz vanished? Else, how are the Orz not made of the pre-orz?
- after the Transition, the Orz had the knowledge of the pre-Orz: Taalo, Arilou, dimensions, etc.
side-points:
- the pre-orz came from a fluid space
Afraid not, not in the least. You're quite a way off the mark with that one. Read what I'd said and enlightenment will come
OK. how about this:
Upon opening the dimensional doorway, the 'pieces' sniffed out sentience, that which it needed to simply BE (after all, the Orz are suits, suits... I believe the Captain said something to this effect, like Combat-Vac suits). Yet it couldn't see the sentience without the sentience first seeing it. The scans penetrate the interdimensional barrier. 'We know this pattern.' think the pieces, in their own basic way. This is a sign of sentience, we see this sign of sentience. We understand this particular pattern. We are drawn!
The Orz are born from the bonding. The reason everyone went nuts is because the pieces are picotech swarms, designed to take their sentience and then build atop it. When the Science officer on the surface utilized the computer, he unwittingly activated one of the last remaining IDF holepunchers. In seeped the swarm, not enough for a conversion but yet enough at the same time to cause him harm, harm which continued because these pieces had neither enough to fix the original form, nor to form that which they so desired.
Therein, the Orz were born from the Androsynth.
they then build things which they bond with the sentience in order to be 'whole' again.
SO... when I said that the pre-orz thought the androsynth were like something they knew about, I meant, they recognized the sentience and then began tinkering (because they were broken?).
If these machines are capable of even partially translating our language, doesn't it stand to reason that they'd also be able to detect our intelligence patterns over an interdimensional rift?
the first does not contradict the second, but it does not imply it.
As for the poltergeists part, sorry: I missed your brief reference to that effect. There was a LOT of text going down there.
I shall repeat again for the sake of clarity! THEY can only see you when YOU can see them.
While you did literally say this earlier, I figured you meant it poetically.
How is its perceptions literally and actually limited by others perceptions of it? It is not carried out by picotech super abilities, unless the picotech has been elaborately programmed to be willfully blind. The only explanation I can think of is a form of telepathy that can only detect sympathetic thoughts (i.e. thoughts about the one sensing). That seems awfully specific an ability to be built into picotech devices.
Also, the rest of that paragraph is denser than the average Kant epigraph. Try using fewer pronouns.
Physics actuators make sense.
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Picowoof
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Yay! These are good points, I like good points and you seem to be wholly on the same wavelength (though hopefully not 44, we could do without the DOOM) now on all but one aspect. This one aspect I shall explain below and I believe it can be explained away with relative ease in a way that will be at least relatively pleasing to you. There is the other matter in fact but I'm not sure on that one but because I like plugging plot-holes, I'll try!
" - after the Transition, the pre-Orz vanished? Else, how are the Orz not made of the pre-orz?"
You've undoubtedly heard the phrase 'Nature abhors a vacuum?' Well, the way I see it is that the dimension breacher was much like a Stargate, it washed outwards, carrying the physics of itself into our Universe then it washed inwards, closing in on itself and filling its own gap because whenever the Universe has a gap, it seems to do its best to fill it. This left the Pre-Orz with a limited amount of resources to work with but because they possess radio-telapathy (in my theory, of course) it made it easy for them to split themselves up into groups of resource gatherers which would create 'The Final Product', so to speak. So only so many Pre-Orz rode the wave in, only so many could and in the resultant clash of physics, even on a picotech level, a great percentage of them were probably destroyed.
" - after the Transition, the Orz had the knowledge of the pre-Orz: Taalo, Arilou, dimensions, etc."
Let's split this up into three happy little bite-size pieces so it'll all make sense and everyone can be happy, rather than highly confused by my mixed up mental-state.
Arilou: They obviously had some idea of their creators, maybe BITS of transmissions they'd picked up that were left floating around (they were radio-telepathic, after all) and they pieced together their history once they were sentient enough to do so. And they were displeased, upset and generally ill-karma ridden by what they'd found out. Poor Orz.
Taalo: The Taalo planet wasn't far from Androsynth, now I'm wagering that the Orz have the same scanning abilities as the Pre-Orz so it would've taken them all of ten minutes to learn everything that could possibly be learned about that artefact from every possible angle. If there were carvings, inscriptions or even some form of hard-drive there, they would've read it and learned of the Taalo. What I find fascinating is that when they say "The Taalo are playing a time joke on us, it is funny." I think by 'funny' they might mean 'enlightening and entertaining' and I think by 'time joke' they might mean 'lessons of the past'. However, everything comes out of the translator with a jubilant slant because the Orz are highly jubilant and child-like creatures themselves.
Etcetera: Radio telepathy explains the rest, they still have it and they've probably adapted it to their new Universe, they can probably snatch any kind of transmission that passes even marginally by their space and have it decrypted in a mere matter of seconds.
" SO... when I said that the pre-orz thought the androsynth were like something they knew about, I meant, they recognized the sentience and then began tinkering (because they were broken?)."
I see! I see! Then the fault was wholly mine. I apologize. Yes, you are correct in all assumptions there except for broken, they are broken but I'm guessing being broken is the intent of their creators. The creators were going to give them bio-aspects until they found out how eager the mechanical aspects of the Pre-Orz were by themselves and decided against it, in fact because the Pre-Orz were seeing them as lunch (as resources they could rebuild and nothing more) they thought it would be a good idea to run away and leave the Pre-Orz there in this state instead.
"There was a LOT of text going down there."
This describes my mind on an everyday basis, it's just as confusing to be me as it is to listen to me and it takes a while for things to solidify into a state that could be wholly understandable by more 'default' means. I believe I should quote Sam and claim that my mind is a "Swirling neosma of scintillating thought and turgid ideas." Verily. I'm crazy.
" While you did literally say this earlier, I figured you meant it poetically."
Oh, this old chestnut. The whole 'Emotion and intent are not carried through the internet's text relays, beware!'. I really should be more wary and explain my emotion and intent more often. Though usually my intent is factual whereas my emotion is just silly. So er... I don't really know! Make of it what you will.
Oh and don't take my capitalizations as shouting or being ired, this occurs to me too. It's just that the game uses the 'THEY/THEM' upper-cased-namings and I wanted to carry on the spirit of that.
" How is its perceptions literally and actually limited by others perceptions of it? It is not carried out by picotech super abilities, unless the picotech has been elaborately programmed to be willfully blind. The only explanation I can think of is a form of telepathy that can only detect sympathetic thoughts (i.e. thoughts about the one sensing). That seems awfully specific an ability to be built into picotech devices."
In all honesty, by reading your paragraph you can divine your own answer. Yet for the sake of it we shall give this answer a name. Let us call this answer 'A failsafe'. Why? We'd have to ask the creators <perk>! It's a sly and albeit crafty dodge I'm aware, I shall try to dream up a better excuse and therein, reason.
A better answer might be that the failsafe was coded shoddily, after all, both Star Control 2 and the non-canon Star Control 3 show us that bad coding is prevalent within the SC Universe, especially where the Precursors are involved. Therein, it might be theorized that the creators threw in protective code-loops and such but the Pre-Orz singled out the most important aspect they were searching for (sentience), probed the code thouroughly with their machine intelligence and instead of recoding themselves (which at that point they couldn't do), they found loopholes.
" Also, the rest of that paragraph is denser than the average Kant epigraph. Try using fewer pronouns."
I'd say 'You're no fun.' but that wouldn't be the truth because actually you're lots of fun to tangle with in the realms of theory and idea. Yet I can't help but call upon my own nature to explain things and my own nature tends to itself lean to caliginous prolixity! I do try to tone things down but often it's hard, things become grey and dull and then I lose the meaning in the ideas I'd originally had and wished to convey, removing the character adds an equal degree of militation, I find.
"Physics actuators make sense."
I find them fascinating and it's the nature of a great many species to bottle things, it's what they're used to. Their ships bottle them and even their ships are often in a bottle so bottling a piece of Universe to sit inside doesn't seem outside of the general culture.
-- Edit --
Added a little to the failsafe thing.
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 01:16:51 am by Picowoof »
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Culture20
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*smelling* might be a more general type of telepathic sonar, allowing the Orz or pre-orz to sense objects by sending out psychic waves. It might stand to reason that if something else has this ability (other sentient beings who can send out the wave, but not *hear* them bounce back), that Orz can *smell* them. The more the Androsynth thought about those reality aberations, the *brighter* they appeared to the pre-orz in contrast to all other matter in TS.
Perhaps the thing that allowed the pre-orz to "escape" wasn't a technological feat on the part of the Androsynth, but instead some Androsynth Scientist thought about the physical laws of the pre-orz universe, making slightly brighter than the rest of the universe. If the pre-orz perceptions extend beyond planar boundaries, the pre-orz might have *smelled* the way to our universe merely because of a stray academic thought. Say, what's that ghostly thing over ther....
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 01:21:53 am by Culture20 »
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Picowoof
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So they're actually looking for esper potential and preying on that? Then that would mean their loophole was to try and rework their hardware a little to 'ping' sentience that might respond. Yes, yes I could see this... especially if they already somehow had the capability. The Taalo playing a time joke might've been more amusing to them because the Taalo device was a 'reverse-ping', the opposite of what the Orz had figured out how to do (but never pursued out of lack of need).
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Shiver
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Picowoof wrote:
Indeed, good Sir Death, that is exactly what I am proposing and I'm aware of the implications. There is no evidence to the contrary that states that a dimensional breach woudln't wash else-physics into realspace, as this is fiction after all I thought it were fair to make a couple of safe estimates within my theories, that being one of them. This might not be true of our Universe but again, that is what seperates Science Fiction from Science Fact. The irony here of course is that it appears that verily, elsedimensional physics washing into our own Universe from other plains is accepted by some Scientific bodies as a valid theory. It's a funny old Universe, isn't it? And I say that in a most literary manner. " - Orz are made of a form of matter which has coherent structures hundreds of times smaller than atoms" Oh gosh, no! What I'm saying is that the Pre-Orz were made of a form of matter which has coherent structures hundreds of times smaller than atoms and what I shall henceforth call 'The Transition' involved them rebuilding themselves, in the process (because they are machines and have infinitely superiour intelligence capacities than biosacks and they learn... shall we say, much faster) they rebuilt themselves to the physics of our Universe as solid creatures. The Orz are now not the Androsynth, the Orz are not the Pre-Orz but the Orz are a symbiotic bonding of what the Androsynth were and what the Pre-Orz built with all the materials around them, considering probably only the brain of each Androsynth valuable enough to keep in its original state. After all, before the Orz could comprehend conscience or guilt, the Androsynth were just a 'resource', like any other and hence, they 'built' with them. " - Their space is 'fluidic', whatever that means. Filled with a fluid? What would the assertion 'space itself is fluid' mean?" One would imagine that this were purely logical and easy to grasp. Let us say you have a singularity which creates a gravity well in a spherical formation, similar to a gas giant but instead of gas, we fill it with fluid. Now let's say that the physics of pretty-space are different enough that instead of gasses, they have formed licquids. In this fluidic space, there are young wells which provide a gravitational center against the 'tidal waves' that might be evident in their Universe and that's where pockets of life would be found. I believe my theory is at least marginally valid because the Orz themselves refer to being overjoyed by the 'hard playgrounds' in our Universe. Now let's just assume that 'playgrounds' is a mistranslation of 'planets'. The Orz are overjoyed that indeed, our Universe has 'hard planets'. No I ask you, good Sir Death, utilizing a little conjecture and logic; what does this tell you about the home-dimension of the Pre-Orz? At the very least it tells you they have no hard planets, yes? Moreover, if they don't have hard planets, what do they have? " - Androsynth experiments in IDF released the Orz into this dimension (few of us will debate that one)." Almost a wholehearted 'Indeed!' can be issued here but I'd like to make a teensy-weensy minor correction, in my theories the Pre-Orz were released. A race that very quickly became the bewildered and new Orz, who were immediately wracked with grief over what they'd done but yet had the survival instinct of the Androsynth now, so they were unable to simply suicide over it, they had to get on with their lives and press out into space they did. I think it's this underlying guilt that leads them to be productive, which helps them in their efforts to be open and giving towards all strangers. They're trying to add a constructive presence in the place of what they took away, sort of a balancing of the Universe. If that makes sense to you at all? I would hope it does. " - The Orz thought the Androsynth were something like things in their dimension (despite having a fundamentally different makeup), and tried to remake them into their familiar forms." Afraid not, not in the least. You're quite a way off the mark with that one. Read what I'd said and enlightenment will come, or because I'm not lazy and I enjoy repetetive tasks, I will repeat myself again for your benefit! The Androsynth possess 'scannable intellect'. If these machines are capable of even partially translating our language, doesn't it stand to reason that they'd also be able to detect our intelligence patterns over an interdimensional rift? It makes sense to me. If they weren't able to translate us then indeed, I would have my doubts but since they are and in my theory, they're machines (which learn at an infinitely multiplied rate in comparison to us) then I think it's likely that they could 'smell' the Androsynth. As I said before, they were disappointed that the humans didn't 'smell' because that would mean that they weren't as intelligent as the Androsynth and unable to grasp things the Orz otherwise would've told them, yet they were relieved they didn't 'smell' because they knew their pre-Orz brothers back in fluidic space wouldn't be able to detect them. In essence, the Arilou altered the humans so their sentience patterns couldn't be read specifically by these pre-Orz. " -- Why would the Androsynth begin seeing Poltergeists?" "Look, minerals, let's break them down into their component parts. Dust-like on an atomic level where we can rebuild them as we wish." - Pre-Orz "ACK! Strange moving clouds! They're the GHOSTS foretold of in our prophecies. Run away! No wait. We must DESTROY these ghosts!" - Androsynth " -- Why would the Androsynth's KNOWLEDGE of this dimension be so dangerous? This was what the Arilou warned us against." I shall repeat again for the sake of clarity! THEY can only see you when YOU can see them. As the game tells it. Here's how I tell it: They can only see you if you find a way to bust through to their Universe and scan them, so they can trace that back and scan (smell) you. The Science officer found a Dimensional-Breacher (which is why he was forced to blow up the building rather than simply delete the data files) and punched through, he scanned and THEY (the Pre-Orz) remembered the energy signatures of Androsynth scanners, they didn't bother to scan the human because they remembered they'd already done that and it would be inefficient and on some basic level, they were excited by the prospect. They came through and found that even though the humans didn't 'smell', they could still use them. This knowledge was a terrifying prospect, the Science Officer knew that they now KNEW this and so they could 'see' the humans even if they couldn't smell them. They knew they could be used even if they couldn't scan them. Yes? " -- Why would the Orz, as described, be upset with the Arilou?" As I'd said, I believe the Arilou might have been their creators. If you'd been created, then broken and abandoned and then left to prey on other races because your creator couldn't clean up their messes, wouldn't you be upset? On some level they might blame the Arilou for what had happened. That's one theory. The more likely theory is that the Arilou found fluidic space before the Pre-Orz existed and struck up formal relations with the people there. It's obvious the Arilou happily share whatever they believe you're capable of understanding and the Orz know that the Arilou can't be blamed for being generous but in the end, this generousity makes them 'more trouble' than they're worth. I believe, although roughly (due to translation), this is how the Orz described them. Far too troublesome -- because they butt in, interfere and then share. Perhaps if not for the Arilou, they wouldn't have been created and they'd have naught to feel guilty over. They can't really BLAME the Arilou but still... they are trouble. " -- more to come." Oh the humanity! <giggly> My apologies, I couldn't resist. -- Edit -- Oh and before you ask, since this has just occurred to me (and an interesting thought it is, too); yes. I believe the Arilou have physics actuators. What are physics actuators? Well let's say the Arilou had cracked quantum physics, they were so far beyond us that they could rightfully patronize us like canines, "You opened the door, good Dog, good Dog! Have a biscuit." If that were the case then it's likely that they knew how to 'bottle' physics so they could safely travel into other dimensions. So their ships would have a 'physics bubble' in them which would prevent the physics of another dimension from affecting them, they created this on scans and observations of physics from other Universes washing into our own. So the humans jump-system has physics actuators too which prevent the physics of other Universes affecting them. The Arilou also point out that they might've altered themselves to suit other sets of physics because they claimed humans weren't (solid enough) or perhaps 'cohesive enough to bear more than one set of physics'. If they allowed them to their homeworld unengineered, they might blow up in a fantastic display of "Oh my, THAT shouldn't exist here." Furthermore, just to be utterly pedantic, it stands to reason that if entry into another dimensional set of physics would be dangerous, the Arilou wanting to pretect their humans so much probably would've left 'actuator drones' near the only natural entryway to protect the ship as long as it was in their dimension. It all just stands to reason really that if they have the capability of doing one, they also by default have the capability of doing the other which is not dissimilar in its nature. -- Edit 2 -- An amusing side ponderance occurs (random thought encounter!). A friend of mine introduced me to the Daktaklakpak. Now don't consider this as part of my theory and also, I'm aware that SC3 is non-canon but it all ties in in a slightly amusing way. For example, if fluidic space were a testing grounds for the original Mother Ark, then these pieces might've been the original idea for the drones; hence their latent need for biology to function. It's just a passing idea that amuses me, that the Precursors might've been using another area of space-time as a sandbox to test ideas, which of course probably went horribly wrong and I'm still not suggesting this horribly wrong thing is what the Precursors might've been running from. No... of course not. That would be silly. -- Edit 3 -- Hopefully this will be the Final Edit <perk>. I just wished to say that I by no means consider any questioning or picking-apart-thereof of my dreamy theorems to be confrontationalist, nor do I wish to be actively so towards why comrades here at the forums. Actually, I think you're all really quite neat. My reasoning behind this is that all theories and ideas grow from friendly interpersonal gestalts, much like sentience works in the brain. You cannot evolve with someone sitting around who likes to constantly enquire, "Are you sure? Are you sure?" There's no real evolution as a species without that and things become mired and stagnant. So even if my responses aren't all 'yes, you're right' and 'indeed, of course, I agree' or perhaps 'my eyes have opened, why didn't I see that?' it doesn't mean that I would choose to fight your opinions (per se) or do anything of the sort! Keep them coming! I like having my theories picked at and I won't get all annoyed over it or anything, it's fun! Anyway, I just wished to say that because indeed, over the next few days my theories might get picked apart by the best of minds. Which makes me glad that's all they are; happy, pointless, irrelevant, meandering, dreamy theories.
Yay! These are good points, I like good points and you seem to be wholly on the same wavelength (though hopefully not 44, we could do without the DOOM) now on all but one aspect. This one aspect I shall explain below and I believe it can be explained away with relative ease in a way that will be at least relatively pleasing to you. There is the other matter in fact but I'm not sure on that one but because I like plugging plot-holes, I'll try! " - after the Transition, the pre-Orz vanished? Else, how are the Orz not made of the pre-orz?" You've undoubtedly heard the phrase 'Nature abhors a vacuum?' Well, the way I see it is that the dimension breacher was much like a Stargate, it washed outwards, carrying the physics of itself into our Universe then it washed inwards, closing in on itself and filling its own gap because whenever the Universe has a gap, it seems to do its best to fill it. This left the Pre-Orz with a limited amount of resources to work with but because they possess radio-telapathy (in my theory, of course) it made it easy for them to split themselves up into groups of resource gatherers which would create 'The Final Product', so to speak. So only so many Pre-Orz rode the wave in, only so many could and in the resultant clash of physics, even on a picotech level, a great percentage of them were probably destroyed. " - after the Transition, the Orz had the knowledge of the pre-Orz: Taalo, Arilou, dimensions, etc." Let's split this up into three happy little bite-size pieces so it'll all make sense and everyone can be happy, rather than highly confused by my mixed up mental-state. Arilou: They obviously had some idea of their creators, maybe BITS of transmissions they'd picked up that were left floating around (they were radio-telepathic, after all) and they pieced together their history once they were sentient enough to do so. And they were displeased, upset and generally ill-karma ridden by what they'd found out. Poor Orz. Taalo: The Taalo planet wasn't far from Androsynth, now I'm wagering that the Orz have the same scanning abilities as the Pre-Orz so it would've taken them all of ten minutes to learn everything that could possibly be learned about that artefact from every possible angle. If there were carvings, inscriptions or even some form of hard-drive there, they would've read it and learned of the Taalo. What I find fascinating is that when they say "The Taalo are playing a time joke on us, it is funny." I think by 'funny' they might mean 'enlightening and entertaining' and I think by 'time joke' they might mean 'lessons of the past'. However, everything comes out of the translator with a jubilant slant because the Orz are highly jubilant and child-like creatures themselves. Etcetera: Radio telepathy explains the rest, they still have it and they've probably adapted it to their new Universe, they can probably snatch any kind of transmission that passes even marginally by their space and have it decrypted in a mere matter of seconds. " SO... when I said that the pre-orz thought the androsynth were like something they knew about, I meant, they recognized the sentience and then began tinkering (because they were broken?)." I see! I see! Then the fault was wholly mine. I apologize. Yes, you are correct in all assumptions there except for broken, they are broken but I'm guessing being broken is the intent of their creators. The creators were going to give them bio-aspects until they found out how eager the mechanical aspects of the Pre-Orz were by themselves and decided against it, in fact because the Pre-Orz were seeing them as lunch (as resources they could rebuild and nothing more) they thought it would be a good idea to run away and leave the Pre-Orz there in this state instead. "There was a LOT of text going down there." This describes my mind on an everyday basis, it's just as confusing to be me as it is to listen to me and it takes a while for things to solidify into a state that could be wholly understandable by more 'default' means. I believe I should quote Sam and claim that my mind is a "Swirling neosma of scintillating thought and turgid ideas." Verily. I'm crazy. " While you did literally say this earlier, I figured you meant it poetically." Oh, this old chestnut. The whole 'Emotion and intent are not carried through the internet's text relays, beware!'. I really should be more wary and explain my emotion and intent more often. Though usually my intent is factual whereas my emotion is just silly. So er... I don't really know! Make of it what you will. Oh and don't take my capitalizations as shouting or being ired, this occurs to me too. It's just that the game uses the 'THEY/THEM' upper-cased-namings and I wanted to carry on the spirit of that. " How is its perceptions literally and actually limited by others perceptions of it? It is not carried out by picotech super abilities, unless the picotech has been elaborately programmed to be willfully blind. The only explanation I can think of is a form of telepathy that can only detect sympathetic thoughts (i.e. thoughts about the one sensing). That seems awfully specific an ability to be built into picotech devices." In all honesty, by reading your paragraph you can divine your own answer. Yet for the sake of it we shall give this answer a name. Let us call this answer 'A failsafe'. Why? We'd have to ask the creators <perk>! It's a sly and albeit crafty dodge I'm aware, I shall try to dream up a better excuse and therein, reason. A better answer might be that the failsafe was coded shoddily, after all, both Star Control 2 and the non-canon Star Control 3 show us that bad coding is prevalent within the SC Universe, especially where the Precursors are involved. Therein, it might be theorized that the creators threw in protective code-loops and such but the Pre-Orz singled out the most important aspect they were searching for (sentience), probed the code thouroughly with their machine intelligence and instead of recoding themselves (which at that point they couldn't do), they found loopholes. " Also, the rest of that paragraph is denser than the average Kant epigraph. Try using fewer pronouns." I'd say 'You're no fun.' but that wouldn't be the truth because actually you're lots of fun to tangle with in the realms of theory and idea. Yet I can't help but call upon my own nature to explain things and my own nature tends to itself lean to caliginous prolixity! I do try to tone things down but often it's hard, things become grey and dull and then I lose the meaning in the ideas I'd originally had and wished to convey, removing the character adds an equal degree of militation, I find. "Physics actuators make sense." I find them fascinating and it's the nature of a great many species to bottle things, it's what they're used to. Their ships bottle them and even their ships are often in a bottle so bottling a piece of Universe to sit inside doesn't seem outside of the general culture. -- Edit -- Added a little to the failsafe thing.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!! I mean, uh, Picowoof, your avatar isn't working. Why don't you take your hands off the keyboard for a sec and fix it? I have a new theory: Picowoof is not a human being (proof: no human would have the free time to write that), but rather a living manifestation of pure hatred. I think he already has myself and possibly even Lukipela beat in pure text mass.
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Picowoof
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Pkunk Monk
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To Shiver I say with earnest near-acquiescence...
"HOLY *SPICY SAUCE* [Translation Glitch]!!"
A desired effect, how utterly pleasing <claps>! This is always something I like to see, I aim for three things in my posts; A) no small amount of humour, wit and perhaps even a little friendly snyde, B) to be wholly entertaining to myself and collectively the 'Others' around me, whomever they might be, C) to rearrange minds in fascinating ways (it's all part of some subliminal plot, probably!).
"I mean, uh, Picowoof, your avatar isn't working."
Really? I thought the Gods of karma were against me and that avatars weren't allowed for people under a certain post-count, I shall look into it post-haste and I think you for your informational statement which will allow me to project even more selfness into this forum.
"but rather a living manifestation of pure hatred."
It cannot be! For alas if it were, all my attempts to be passive and simply 'An Artefact Of Nature Or Random Construction Which People Point And Ooh At In Passing But One That Leaves No Lingering Effect On Their Culture' have failed! Oh the effort I've expended in being kind and giving when I could just be Sharkey or Toastyfrog-like and claim to hate you all. But I can't do that because I genuinely LIKE you all and there's the conflict at the crux of the matter! I can only conclude that you must be incorrect, a fact of which I am greatful.
To Necro I say with mild discomfiture...
"Methinks that this is getting far too in-depth. "
One would wonder, aren't we bringing relativity into the affair here? By this; I mean that the words 'in-depth' are irrelevant when used on their own standing, they only have meaning when in relevance or measured by some other standard. I never was capable of comprehending how things could be 'too simple' or 'too complex' by no standards. 'More complex than I'd care to deal with.' would be understood but 'More in-depth than [?]' leaves me in a state of perplexed incognizance.
I personally believe that each item can be as in-depth or as simple as the person that wants them to be and that anything else is casting a person's own perceptions on them. So I ask for your forgiveness in advance for I forsee naught but further depth in the immediate future. Depth to me is fun, it's an opposite to shallow and equates to diversity. So I gravitate around it, as most things in the Universe seem to do, curiously enough. So um... I'm sorry?
I could try to summarize every now and then I suppose but that might end up looking like those hopeless recaps in webcomics which even the characters themselves end up poking fun at and travestying.
Your takes on seen and smell are valid as the other forum-posters here, as valid; not more or less so and in that, I am sure that they are welcomed by everyone here. If I see something you've theorized that truly perks my dreamstate-theorytrigger or whatever it is, then I shall eagerly comment on it in my merry little way. Equity is Good and Fun after all and I wholly support its existance in day to day life.
" The Orz don't find "hard" *playground*"
Are you sure? It doesn't matter much however as heavy equates to density, does it not? It is gravity that causes weight and the more dense something is, the heavier it is. Singularities are superdense so they have WOOOSHBangEvil (tm) levels of gravitational pull. At least, that's how I remember it and I'm sure I'll be hastily corrected by Death if I am incorrect and I would welcome such a correction. So heavy == hard and your point... was... ? I'm afraid I got kind of lost. It happens.
"I don't understand all this 'fluidspace' rattle."
This seems to happen a lot, it might have something to do however with this being such a wholly alien concept but since Star Control deals with flying around and dealing with aliens in a fiction setting, I don't believe it's so inconceivable. Especially since the theories are mostly sound-ish...ish... mostly. I'm sure a Science boffin could turn up and make them sound if he so truly desired anyway. It appears that physics are a most malleable and claylike thing. And fun to play with! Like clay.
"I'm simply failing to see how our 'logical' science can be put into play on this strange, often illogical topic."
I have stared at this sentence from many angles, I have prodded it with the many lingual centers of my brain and it took me a few minutes to truly grasp the levity of its meaning. I shall try to answer; it all has to do with perception and the way each of us understands all which is around us. I call it the 'Perception Wall', each of us is going to use our own tools to even begin to understand any Universe, fictional or real. My tools happen to be logic and abstract-creativity which often somehow seem to work as one. Not everyone will use such a system of perception but to each their own, difference breeds adaption and life. Yay difference!
So ends this particular jaunt into forum-postery.
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 04:26:56 am by Picowoof »
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NECRO-99
*Smell* controller
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Androsynth Combat Tactics Specialist
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'More in-depth than [?]'
...than any of us really seek to delve? I think your use of eruditely crafted words and, well, seemingly ostentatious terminology, as well as your sheer mass of text ebbs at the lucidity of your meaning. Its well thought out, and eloquently written, but a bit thick.
(I'm sure you hate to read this, but you're probably going to have to laymenize it down a notch, you may be Blinding Some With Science, and just scaring the rest.  )
As for the hard/=heavy...
Quoth the Orz:
My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles*...
I know it's some screwy liquid-ethanol breathing creature's words being badly translated through the computer, but it's what they say. They don't mention *hard* at all.
Liquidspace:
I get what you're saying about it, but would the Androsynth have left a *splash* (some of aforementioned liquid) when they were *pulled*? Would the *under space* have leaked onto Realspace when IDF holes were ripped? Or would there be some sort of universal cohesion to hold it all together, even when faced with a wormhole?
My tools happen to be logic and abstract-creativity...
You're either quite gifted, or you're terminally insane.
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I love being a clone. Everything I do bad gets blamed on the real me!
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Orz Brain
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We are the Orz. You will be *joining our party*.
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Brain:
Quote:You leave the area before the orz notice
Uh, I thought Buwolski was "noticed" due to the immense amounts of cuts and his inherent screaming about ghosts and "them".
Quote:Because earthlings are all different they don't all smell alike and the orz detirmine that the infection will not spread because the guy will die first and won't have a chance to pass along the dangerous information.
The Orz aren't that stupid. If this theory was true, they would've killed him because they'd know from fighting off the Androsynth that humans are a wee-bit more resilient than to just be slashed up a few times and die.
Quote:The parisites have learned to mask their *smell* from the orz so the orz don't notice.
Then the Orz would probably realize that and try to find a new way to detect this "infection".
Quote:The orz do notice and kill him later.
Why wouldn't they kill him right away? You notice your crew never drops either. Don't try to blame combat deaths for his, either
Quote:He dies before the orz notice.
He doesn't. Crew doesn't drop.
Quote:One infection is not enough for the orz to notice.
If the Orz were so "universally minded" as you portray them as, they'd try to wipe out all cases of this 'infection' ASAP. It's like saying, "Oh, one case of the Black Plague isn't anything to worry about." You're eating your own words here.
Quote:And any number of other possibilities I haven't thought of yet...
You keep 'em comin', I'll keep on gunnin'.
Lets take this one at a time... Brain:
Quote:You leave the area before the orz notice
Uh, I thought Buwolski was "noticed" due to the immense amounts of cuts and his inherent screaming about ghosts and "them".
He was noticed by the Orz? How do you know? Were they looking in and saw and heard him?
Because earthlings are all different they don't all smell alike and the orz determine that the infection will not spread because the guy will die first and won't have a chance to pass along the dangerous information.
The Orz aren't that stupid. If this theory was true, they would've killed him because they'd know from fighting off the Androsynth that humans are a wee-bit more resilient than to just be slashed up a few times and die.
Uh in my theory the Orz didn't fight off the Androsynth... They wiped em out because the Sinth were all infected... I guess you missed that bit.
The parasites have learned to mask their *smell* from the Orz so the Orz don't notice.
Then the Orz would probably realize that and try to find a new way to detect this "infection".
Wow. That was the most stunningly logical refutation of a point I have ever seen. I mean really... "Then the Orz would PROBABLY realize that".... How do you know? Did the Orz tell you? How do you know that they succeeded? How do you know that the Orz know that the parasites have "adapted"?... Since you appear to be completely unable to offer a coherent refutation of this suggestion I take it that you agree with me... Right?
The Orz do notice and kill him later.
Why wouldn't they kill him right away? You notice your crew never drops either. Don't try to blame combat deaths for his, either
Pray tell WHAT do you think happens to him afterwards? He takes a quick trip to sickbay and then it's back to active duty? No one questions him about what happens? None of the cuts also have internal counterparts? He suffers from aminisia afterwards? Please... I want to know... according to you what happens to him afterwards?
One infection is not enough for the Orz to notice.
If the Orz were so "universally minded" as you portray them as, they'd try to wipe out all cases of this 'infection' ASAP. It's like saying, "Oh, one case of the Black Plague isn't anything to worry about." You're eating your own words here. [
I gather that you don't fully understand the English language.... Keeping that in mind I will attempt to rephrase: Perhaps one infection is not a strong enough *smell* for the Orz to *smell* it. Perhaps their sensory apparatus isn't that sensitive.
And any number of other possibilities I haven't thought of yet...
You keep 'em comin', I'll keep on gunnin'.
Oh PLEASE do! I can't wait for another display of your ahem... "Reasoning" abilities.
And in that vane I will share another idea I have had. It Is possible to PROVE logically that the Orz were not responsible for what happened to Bukowski on the planet. First of all lets make a list of the things we do agree on. (1) Bukowski was attacked by something unseen on the planets surface. (2) He was attacked because something he saw in the computers memory banks made it possible for *something* to *smell him. Assuming we agree on those points it is possible to prove with the data provided by the game that the Orz were not responsible accept in one possible circumstance... That the Orz were forcible removing the infecting organism from Bukowski and that the damage was caused by the organism "holding on".
OK what could the data that he saw in the Sinth computer be? It can't be about the existence of the Orz... He already knew. It can't be about the hostile intent of the Orz because even if you question the Orz about the Androsynth enough to make them hostile to you and then go back and land on the planet nothing happens. I rather doubt it was technical specifications on the IDF device. I would welcome any other suggestions so I can disprove them. Anyway it seems to me that the only possibility is that the computer contained data about something else... As in another IDF organism. Something that no one on the ship knows about or imagined or THEY would have been attacked....
I think we need to make a kiddie table like the SC Forum has, and Terminator and Orz Brain need to go sit at it. At least get your arguments into such a position that they do not contradict themselves or seem generally stupid. Until this time, remain at the kiddie table. Thank you.
I rather doubt a "kiddie table" would be effective due to the fact that morons like you would probably not confine themselves to posting there.
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 05:26:44 am by Orz_Brain »
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We are the Orz. You will be *joining our party*. Resistance is *very sad*.
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Picowoof
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"...than any of us really seek to delve?"
You can speak for the collective all? You must be more in touch with the true nature of One than I am, that is for certain. I know my humble woofian self could certainly never even begin to assume the cranial goings on of my fellows without even a passing enquiry, I must be unenlightened and thus I bow down to your knowledge. Summaries it shall be then. Despite strong urges to the contrary which cry out that simplicity isn't any means to an end, I shall try!
"My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles*..."
Yes I am aware the Orz said this but I do not believe we are on the same page here, allow me to help but fingering through your proverbial book to the place you need to be; which if I remember with correctness is the Androsynth homeworld, I'm not entirely sure (as I never am) but I believe they stated at least once 'hard playground'. Now unless my age is robbing me of my sight along with my sanity and perspicacity, there's no mention of playground in your quote yet every time I mentioned this, I did indeed mention playground, I am also wholly certain I am not in err about that. You may feel free to check.
"...a *splash* (some of aforementioned liquid)..."
Here's where we get to apply household physics! And these are always fun but even though I'm going to describe this, I still feel compelled to add; 'Don't try this at home, kids!' as the Melnorme inside me yells for me to do. After all, I don't wish to be sued and I really wouldn't be able to deal with the sheer guilt of someone harming themselves. ButthisisALLbesidethepiont... take a glass of water and apply a flat surface to it, then make a large hole in that surface and apply an absolute vaccuum. Since we don't have an absolute vaccuum a vaccuum cleaner will have to do. What happens? SSHH-LOOOOP! All the licquid finds itself returning from whence it came. The Pre-Orz possessing some level of cleverness managed to avoid being sucked back in after the wave blew outwards, and was then sucked back in as the Universe apparently hates 'gaps' and fills them with anything as quickly as it's able, even with surrounding space!
And I never claimed the Androsynth were pulled anywhere, I just realized this sentence at the back of my mind, at some remote region which picks up on these little things and in a small voice points me to them with a "Hey, look, oddity..." So I must assume you're talking about someone else in that sentence? I hope my assumption is correct and if it isn't, my apologies and could you explain?
"Or would there be some sort of universal cohesion to hold it all together, even when faced with a wormhole?"
The cohesion would exist in part as it were happening and wholly as it were fixed. I think of the Universe as not like paper but more like clingfilm. Have you ever seen this strange material? It's amazing! It stretches like gum for a while before it eventually breaks but with the merest of shakes it sticks back to itself, closing its own gaps. Admittedly it sticks to you and wraps around just about anything but the 'fabric' of the Universe might just be like that. This is an absolute guess, a theory one would certainly say, on my part but that's what this all is and it doesn't hurt to help explain one theory with another; after all, Scientists have been doing it for years and remarkably well. I couldn't hope for that kind of professionalism but I can aspire.
" You're either quite gifted, or you're terminally insane."
I wouldn't like to assume I were either or both. Yet in being insane I might have an edge on understanding what the Orz are actually saying! Either that or all those years of reading Babelfish-translated pages paid off, I'm not entirely sure...
-- Edit --
No, I believe I am incorrect. I believe it was the World where the Taalo thingumapsychicdevice was.
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 05:29:48 am by Picowoof »
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