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Author Topic: Same Sex Marriage  (Read 27126 times)
Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2004, 05:04:55 pm »

For some reason I don't think that the metric system is going to
be responsible for people sitting around at home wondering what to
do next.
The lack of a sequal to UQM, now that will cause some stagnation.
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guesst
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2004, 07:57:29 pm »

Hmmm, oddly enough I haven't chimed in on this one yet. Let me correct that now.

Some of what follows may echo what has already been said, so you'll have to forgive me. But let me start by giving you my bio so you know where I'm coming from. First off, I'm straight. I'm also married with a child. Next, I'm Christian, Mormon to be exact, but I pride myself on being in a religion that I can justify morally without falling back on the condescending "It's wrong in Gods eyes" argument that seems to pervade this question so often. Every point in my faith starts with a spiritual confermation that I can go back to if I need to, but I rarely do because everything just makes sense. That's my stand.

I do no support homosexual marrage. This is nothing personal against homosexuals. If I were to argue this point I would take a financial standpoint. Yes financial. As a father and husband I am at a economical disadvantage from an unmarried man with no children of my age. I am the primary support for my family. As such I feel I need the economical tax breaks that America gives to married people, and further to parents.

When a homosexual marrage takes place, are you telling me that one partner will choose to stay at home and be a "domestic engineer" to build a home for their growing family? I doubt it. Even if some homosexual couples choose to adopt, which is an entirely different can of worms, the majority of homosexual couples will esentally be two incomes with all the financial privlages of marrage. It creates an economic inequality, and that's not what the constitution of America was written for. Infact it was written with the opposite in mind and has succeeded so well that it has even overcome the prejedices (sp?) of it's writters.

With this in mind, I feel that marrage needs to be defined as more than "A union between one man and one woman," but should be expanded and re-written to become, "A contractual union between one man and one woman to the end of producing a household that will foster an environment for the rearing of children." Children, in this wording are mentioned, but not required, and it leaves plenty of room for intrepretation. However, I feel it would only better society if we were to define marrage in this way. This does not address the issue of children born out of wedlock and I feel that would need to be addressed, but does not pertain to the issue at hand.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
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Death 999
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2004, 09:22:15 pm »

Quote
With this in mind, I feel that marrage needs to be defined as more than "A union between one man and one woman," but should be expanded and re-written to become, "A contractual union between one man and one woman to the end of producing a household that will foster an environment for the rearing of children."


So what about marriages between heterosexuals who are infertile?

I don't see why they would more inclined to adopt (an implicit assumption in the inclusion of the gender issue) than homosexuals.

What about two 70-year-olds getting married? They typically don't have the strength to raise a child. Ban elderly marriages?

Heck, even parents will at the end find that they are unable to raise children. Are their marriages nullified on this account?
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2004, 12:06:03 am »

Or what about straight people that don't want kids? Or what if the gay
couple does adopt. Then should they be allowed to marry. Your agument against gay marriage is as flawed as Mormon  dogma.

Furthermore, the rights granted to you by your government states that
people are equal. Each person has the same rights (in theory) to life,
liberty and happiness. No where in there does it say that one person should
lower their household income to be equal with another family. That, old
boy, is socialism. Which, I'd like to point out, your country is very much against.

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Chrispy
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2004, 01:53:06 am »

Gays shouldnt have to concern themselves with the economy. I see in a way that everyone should have the same rights, and if the economy takes a hit, it has no right to blame gay couples. Heterosexual marriage 'jumped on the boat' first, but that doesnt mean that homosexual marriage should be left behind for the sake of taxes.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2004, 01:59:46 am »

But what he is saying is the homosexuals are "better fitted" to make money. Therefore, to keep it even, they should not get goverment money.
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Chrispy
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2004, 02:03:43 am »

It may seem like more married couples have kids than gay couples addopt, but that is something that cannot be assumed. The right still has to be there.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2004, 03:00:53 am »

Unless I am misunderstanding your message Chrispy, I think that your are misinterpreting my message. I will try again.

What I am saying is that mostly males are the provider of the family. (I don't mean to offend a woman that is, but I think the majority is men) Thus having two men allows the fmaily to make more money than a family of a man and a woman. But they still enjoy the same benifits. So that encourages gay because you can make a lot more money, especally if you do not have a kid and still get the taxes and stuff off from the goverment. This puts "regular" marriges at a disadvantage.

EDIT: I apoligize if I seem one-sided. I am trying ot be enven handed, but as some of you know, I have had some trouble with that in the past.
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Chrispy
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2004, 03:06:15 am »

Sorry for the confusion.
I did in fact understand your post. I was trying to say that though your post is correct, it should not be a factor. We cannot assume that gay couples will make more money. That should not deprive gays of the right to marry.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2004, 03:16:42 am »

We can check to see if gay couple make more money. Just average them and compare.  Now true, their are not NEAR the amount of gay couples as "traditional" couples, but it is a start.

In my mind, That ALONE should not deprive gays the rights to marry. However there are otehr issues.
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Chrispy
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2004, 03:26:07 am »

The issues are more like assumptions though. Even if they are true, its just a statistic. It shouldnt affect peoples rights.
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2004, 05:55:02 am »

Quote
Or what about straight people that don't want kids? Or what if the gay
couple does adopt. Then should they be allowed to marry. Your agument against gay marriage is as flawed as Mormon  dogma.


I don't think that was necessary.  As I recall this topic was for discussing people's views on gay marriage, not attacking people's religions.

While I'm at it I guess I should say that I think that this is a moral issue, and I don't really know that the government should be able to make moral decisions for people.  But then, something like a constitutional amendment would really have to be aproved by the people, so I don't know if I'd agree with that or not.
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2004, 07:50:00 am »

Technically no, I've never heard of the state acknowledgeing a marriage on it's own behalf maybe at a city hall or a courthouse, or Las Vegas but let me get back to the point at hand most religions regard marriage as a sacred or holy bond between a man and a woman.  The way I see noone can be objective in this matter everyone here already has predetermined opinions on this one of three ideas
1: appalled by the idea
2: sympathize the idea
3: Could care less
actually anyone agreeing with point #3 proably would not post here anyway.  It's one of those situations that labels u. 1 labels u homophobic or closed minded. While point 2 labels u as a "bleeding heart liberal", or homosexual yourself. Please note I am trying to put this as delicatly as possible If u feel insulted it is unintentional.
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2004, 05:59:38 pm »

Whether the government should be able to make moral decisions for the People is a moot point. They do. Actually, that's sort of the point of
having a government; to make sure people follow the "rules" and to protect them from outside forces. That's why we have stupid rules like minimum drinking age, age restrictions on pornography and taobacco products.
If North American governments wok up to the idea that education is far more effective than censorship and "the war on drugs" we might be able to solve a lot of our problems.

As far as gays making more or less money than their straight counter parts, I fail to see how that should matter. A lot of straight people make a lot more money than the average Joe and there are no marriage restrictions on them.
Mr. Black, Billy Gates, George Bush all come to mind. No one has told them to get out of their marriages because it's bad for the economy.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Same Sex Marriage
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2004, 06:41:14 pm »

Quote
I fail to see how that should matter. A lot of straight people make a lot more money than the average Joe and there are no marriage restrictions on them.
Mr. Black, Billy Gates, George Bush all come to mind. No one has told them to get out of their marriages because it's bad for the economy.



Sure Bill Gates, George Bush and many others make A LOT more money thatn the average joe. HOWEVER, there is a big difference. We are looking at the average of straights. So there are many people that make less money thatn the average joe. See, average joe is,  as its name implies, average. Thus Bill Gates and the President as well as other "rich" people, have people to average them off. Homosexual, however have no such thing. There average will be higher than "straight" marriages. Thus it hurst the encomny.
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