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Topic: Official remix addon 3: The Ur-Quan Hierarchy (Read 31394 times)
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Mormont
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Well, I don't really like this pack that much. Umgah is better than the original, but merely good - not great. VUX is easily my favorite of the remixes. Thraddash is decent, but it feels a little more subtle/ominous and less in-your-face than the original. I'm not sure about the ur-quan. Ilwrath is excellent, Riku really cleaned up the old remix. The rest are pretty bad IMO. Maybe I'll post a full review of all the remix packs later.
EDIT: I must say, the ur-quan music in the bonus pack rocks. Much better than the other remix.
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« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 08:44:23 pm by JWJ »
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marcuslycus
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My opinion: I thought all the new songs are rather short... I was rather dissapointed my first listen through! The only one's that were pleasing to the ear are the VUX, Mycon, and Thraddash. Thraddash was my favorite, but I wish it was even MORE heavy metal sounding.
Of course, I must say that I do not remember much of how the originals sounded... Let me try to download the mods.
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marcuslycus
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Also must say, the Remixes didn't seem evil enough for me... These Ur-Quan, the green and the black, are enslaving alien races or killing them! You (the player) are the ONLY hope at stopping these bizarre alien creatures from destroying the galaxy, specifically the Earth will be obliterated! These are mal-aligned creatures with no good purposes, and are out to get EVERYONE!! No one is safe from their wrath!! Doesn't that justify an incredibly EVVVVVVvvviiiLLLLLLLLL soundtrack to go with their motives?
And about the length issue: When I used to play the game, I would sit there talking with the aliens for a good 10 minutes or more real time. So it got a little monotonous to hear the music looping 5 or more times during the conversation...
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TiLT
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Almost all the new remixes are longer than the originals. By a good margin too, I might add. Some of the originals were barely 1 1/2 minutes long!
You all should stop letting your nostalgia get the better of you. It's funny how much time can cloud memories. 
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meep-eep
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Also must say, the Remixes didn't seem evil enough for me... These Ur-Quan, the green and the black, are enslaving alien races or killing them! You (the player) are the ONLY hope at stopping these bizarre alien creatures from destroying the galaxy, specifically the Earth will be obliterated! These are mal-aligned creatures with no good purposes, and are out to get EVERYONE!! No one is safe from their wrath!! Doesn't that justify an incredibly EVVVVVVvvviiiLLLLLLLLL soundtrack to go with their motives?
You think so? Being forced to kill your friends and then in order to free yourself having a device implanted in your brain which would cause a continuous near-lethal pain? Their only goal is to remove any chance of that happening ever again. They may have gone a bit over the top, but they're not doing what they do for their own amusement.
So what I'd expect to hear in a theme is not evil, but
- determination
- relentlessness
- torment
Translated to music, I'd expect a slow but hard and regular beat to show an unstoppable progress, with some minor chords (but not too much; it isn't unhappiness that defines them).
The difference between the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za would be that the Kohr-Ah should evoke more fear and the Kzer-Za should show some more compassion.
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“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
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Smaug
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You all should stop letting your nostalgia get the better of you. It's funny how much time can cloud memories.
Actually, that's something I noticed about a few of the songs too. It isn't so much that they are short, but they just kind of end.
When a normal piece of music ends, you have a pretty good idea that it was wrapping up. But, when, say, the VUX remix ends, it almost sounds like somebody tore out the last few pages of sheet music. And, since it doesn't loop properly, the sudden end is kind of jarring. It makes the piece sound short even though it isn't.
You think so? Being forced to kill your friends and then in order to free yourself having a device implanted in your brain which would cause a continuous near-lethal pain? Their only goal is to remove any chance of that happening ever again. They may have gone a bit over the top, but they're not doing what they do for their own amusement.
So what I'd expect to hear in a theme is not evil, but
It is kind of a matter of perspective, but, regardless of how they justify their actions, they have become evil. A race of soul-less conqueres that have little respect for other lifeforms.
The Kzer-Za's idea of compassion is very different from that of most other species. Allowing a race to survive as a battle thrall or fallow species is their idea of compassion. To them, this is merely the "respectful" method of ensuring the survival of the Ur-Quan species. To everyone that they have subjugated, this is evil.
In any case, I think the most important thing that the Kzer-Za's music needs to convey is that sense of "Oh Crap!" that you get when you first get to Earth and encounter the probe. The Kzer-Za are the first species that the captain encounters, and that encounter needs to make the player fear. The music needs to pull this off.
As to the specifics of Kzer-Za music, remember that the Kzer-Za are neither subtle nor dubious. They are exactly what they say that they are. When you meet a Kzer-Za, you know that you have just encountered one of the most powerful and relentless beings in the galaxy, and you'd better be packing some huge weaponry if you expect to get out alive.
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 02:47:10 pm by Smaug »
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Chrispy
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Regarding the music length:
For each song the precursers have developed the tune, or they're version of the tune so that it can be longer without simply looping. Regarding the VUX tune, next time you listen to it listen to the drums. They develope and change through-out song. Youll hear some ride chimes get added.
About the ending, well thats wierd, cus I can sense it rapping up, and I like the ending. Try listening to it more so that you understand it, it will help you appreciate it more.
Regarding the Urquan and evilness:
Yes the Urquan are evil, and the song portrays this. But they have a lot more depth to them then just evilness. As meep-eep explained very nicely they dont enjoy enslaving races. Its a 'this hurts me more than it hurts you' type thing. The precursers remix has more depth than the original which was simple 2 string synths in counterpoint.
The Urquan remix is harder to like than the VUX one, but if you listen to it enough you'll understand it.
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meep-eep
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Whether the Ur-Quan are evil or not depends on your definition of evil.
Some possibilities
- "evil is whatever goes against the will of your deity". If this is your definition, then it is rather useless for those who do not believe in any deity.
- "evil is enjoying other peoples misery"
- "evil is not caring about others, while you know what you are doing." I included the second half of this definition so that vegetables aren't evil. According to this definition, you could say that evilness means selfishness. But if killing humans to ensure your own survival is evil, doesn't that make humans evil too? Killing animals and plants for food, and killing bacteria and virusses that make or may make us sick? Maybe you don't consider them that important, like the Ur-Quan don't think humans are that important. Maybe you want to claim that a being must be self-aware to matter.
- "evil is not caring about other self-aware beings, while you know what you're doing". It's hard to prove that anything isn't self-aware, but lets assume that if it's able to express its desire to live, it's self-aware. Does this definition make the Ur-Quan evil? The Kohr-Ah possibly, but the Kzer-Za do seem to care about humans. They just care more about themselves.
- "evil is caring less about other self-aware beings than yourself, while you know what you're doing". Doesn't that make almost all humans evil?
So what definition do you use?
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“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
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Chrispy
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Evil is determined by your actions. It doesnt matter if you enjoy it, the fact that you are enslaving races makes you evil.
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VOiD
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Is it just me, or does a philosphical discussion on the nature of evil not really belong on this thread? 
Re the Kzer-Za music, however, we wanted to reflect the fact that they are not simply evil: they are doing what they feel must be done. So we tried to convey a feeling of determination and, yes, sadness.
Also, the songs in pack 3 ARE rather short, but that's mainly because there was less original material to work with. The original Kzer-Za theme, for instance, clocks in at a meager 33 seconds. (I know some will think this a poor excuse from someone who helped prolong the Starbase music from 1:01 to 5:51, but there you go.)
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Dinoli
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I was really excited about discussion on whether or not Kzer-Za was evil. Here's my thought about the subject.
First, a blurb about evilness : I consider it quite a safe assumption that evil is something that one does to harm other self-aware creatures with little or no benefit to oneself except satisfaction from said actions. So killing something intelligent in self defense is OK, but killings said intelligent creatures for 'fun' is 'evil'.
Now, let's evaluate Kzer-Za. They're enslaving whole known universe; no-one disagreeing here? The question now is WHY, that is what dictates whether or not their behavior is evil. What Kzer-Za thinks about the whole process is the key in defining them.
Now, does Kzer-Za want to harm other intelligent beings for the kicks of it? Definite no : in SC2, they almost beg the captain to surrender so no more casualties to _either_ side would be taken; they spend resources to safely "enslave" species to their homeworlds, instead of doing something Kohr-Ah:is; they PROTECT the universe from Kohr-Ah. The idea about the ideal state of universe might be faulty, but imaginate yourself going through all that hell Kzer-Za did and you'll have a rather fresh idea about Kzer-Za ideals.
From my point of view, Kzer-Za are one of the heroes, without them, cpt Zelnick would noting else than shreds in space after an Kohr-Ah fleet.
Thank you for reading! -Ano
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Dinoli
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I forgot to mention about the music, sorry!
Kzer-Za theme sounds good, I like it! But, it isn't what I imagine Kzer-Za to be, I'm afraid. The original Kzer-Za theme sounds like "We are Kzer-Za, you have disobeyed us, now you shall die"; and "we will dominate you no matter what, you shall be enslaved or eliminated, but you will not prevail.".
The released theme sounds like "We are Kzer-Za, we will fight you untill the end and we will not give up.". See the difference?
The Kzer-Za shouldn't sound desperate, they're going all out destroying all hinderance to their efforts and their doctrinal war. They're the goddamn bloody masters of the whole goddamn galaxy(excepting parts governed by Kohr-Ah). That's why I imagine their theme to be very powefull. They have hope, yet they have no choise, as the only way through is power.
-Ano
(edited a few typos)
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« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 06:07:28 am by Dinoli »
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Chrispy
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I suppose my definition of evil does need some tweaking but I still think the Kzer-za are evil, and I think that the remix made for them portrays evil very well.
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Dinoli
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How on earth can a race that protects all known sentience from utter eradication with all its known means be evil?
Alright, I know why people think otherwise, and here's why:
What Kzer-Za takes is not our resources nor intellectual property, but our freedom OR our will to govern ourselves. Either we stay on our planet or fight alongside our masters.
Now, lets focus on the 'Slaveshield' part. So humanity lost its chance to get to stars. 0.01% of human population couldn't get above strathosphere. Bohoo. The sky is red but we are goddamn alive. Is your (opposer of the Way of Now and Forever) life so cheap that the color of sky or the minimal chance of getting to space is what dictates whether or not you want to be alive?
Now, another point of view of the subject: let's say that Kzer-Za's strategy was fundamentally the only way of preventing Kohr-Ah's utter victory(which it very well might've been). Would Kzer-Za be 'differently evil' than what it is now? Would Chrispy think "we lived and we were free!" seconds before Kohr-Ah ensued their athmospheric bombardment?
Even if there were no Kohr-Ah, Kzer-Za acted rather benevolently, even after all they had gone through they protected races even from themselves (Thraddash), united everyone under one banner(Ur-Quan hierarchy) and/or prevented them from causing any trouble to anyone else (slave shields).
Liberation is over-rated, Kzer-Za know what they're doing.
-Ano
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