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Topic: Official remix addon 3: The Ur-Quan Hierarchy (Read 31390 times)
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Regarding the music, ignoring the philosophical discussion of what defines "evil":
Regardless of whether the Ur-Quan music should be "evil"-sounding or not, I disagree with the poster who said the Ur-Quan should not sound desperate or passionate, merely cold and unstoppable.
The Ur-Quan aren't a cold, relentless force of nature. They may appear to the player as such at the very beginning, but throughout the game one should be getting hints as to how they aren't.
They're deeply passionate, tragic antiheroes. They do, in the end, become desperate -- they're very aware that the Kohr-Ah are quite probably stronger than they are, and that the slaves they've taken under their wing have everything to lose if they don't win the Doctrinal Conflict. Deep down they're deeply, heartbreakingly concerned about the fate of the lesser races. Their imperious tone changes almost to pleading as they try to get you to see the folly in your dangerous rebellion. They feel an enormous burden of responsibility for all sentient life, and that shows through in every action they take.
I think the new theme fits perfectly. It doesn't lack for any power; the slow, regular beat is if anything better than the original .MOD at conveying inexorable strength (the .MOD's blaring brass, to a modern gamer's ear, sound kind of schmaltzy, in my opinion). The new track says the Ur-Quan will win no matter what they have to do -- they are *confident*, completely confident, that they will win no matter what they have to do -- yet there is deep regret, longing, even grief at the horrors they've witnessed and inflicted in doing so. It fits perfectly the image of the honor-bound, steely-eyed warrior, who lost everything he loved to war and now lives only to do his duty.It encapsulates all the ambivalence, all the bloodstained glories, all the power and regret of the word "Empire". The grim father who *will* save his foolish, ungrateful children from themselves, even if he has to sacrifice many lives doing so.
In my mind the Ur-Quan theme is a great opposite number to the Starbase Commander remix from the first pack, "Corridor Nine", which was a great overall theme for the wayward children of the Alliance -- a groping, struggling theme asserting the wayward children's ignorant, desperate, suicidal yet undying fight for freedom; I picture it locked in bitter argument against "Now and Forever", the theme of the admonishing, unyielding Ur-Quan masters.
Sorry to gush so much about this piece of music, but anyway, that's my two cents.
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The difference between the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za would be that the Kohr-Ah should evoke more fear and the Kzer-Za should show some more compassion.
Interestingly enough, I disagree. I suppose the Kzer-Za theme should have more compassion in it, which it probably does, but Kohr-Ah music should not be directly threatening or scary. Or rather the scary thing about it is that it's not threatening or scary. Just utterly calm, purposeful, clean and pure and smooth as a scalpel.
This is why I strongly agree with the way the original Kohr-Ah music was done and prefer Jouni Airaksinen's composition "Eternal Doctrine" to the Kohr-Ah remix that made it into the official pack. Kohr-Ah are, unlike the half-insane Kzer-Za, totally insane. They don't see any need to bluster or threaten, any need to reason or persuade. Kzer-Za have an imperious, threatening theme because they need to command and to threaten, because they still believe other life forms are worth talking to. Kohr-Ah simply kill without a thought or a word.
I picture Kohr-Ah as a lot *less* emotionally and psychologically conflicted than Kzer-Za, because they don't need to interact with those they fight or consider their needs. They don't think of them as real people; they feel no guilt or remorse, only a calm satisfaction at a job well done. When I hear Jouni's excellent Kohr-Ah theme, I picture mushroom clouds blossoming and scouring planets of life in slow motion, shrouded in the silence of space. The Kohr-Ah see what they do as art, as a thing of beauty; they see resistance as a difficult but intriguing problem to solve. The menace should come from that -- that utter mad calmness, the same calm face as that of Hannibal Lecter or another serial killer who sees people as things.
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meep-eep
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Interestingly enough, I disagree. I suppose the Kzer-Za theme should have more compassion in it, which it probably does, but Kohr-Ah music should not be directly threatening or scary. Or rather the scary thing about it is that it's not threatening or scary. Just utterly calm, purposeful, clean and pure and smooth as a scalpel.
I did not mean scary in a horror movie way. The Kohr-Ah are Death, and they're coming for you. It's just their job. And it's a job they're proud of, judging by their trophy bone-pit. That's got to be pretty scary if you're standing before them. Especially their calm certainty that you will die.
Kzer-Za have an imperious, threatening theme because they need to command and to threaten, because they still believe other life forms are worth talking to.
As long as they've got a talking pet with them. 
I picture Kohr-Ah as a lot *less* emotionally and psychologically conflicted than Kzer-Za, because they don't need to interact with those they fight or consider their needs. They don't think of them as real people; they feel no guilt or remorse, only a calm satisfaction at a job well done.
They're not immune to the emotions of their victims though. If you speak the correct words, they will feel compelled to explain their motives before killing you.
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“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
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Smaug
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They're deeply passionate, tragic antiheroes.
The Kzer-Za are not antiheroes. At one point in their past, they could have helped resurrect a Sentient Milieu; they chose the Path of Now and Forever instead. And they have been following that path ever sense.
More importantly, they found the Sa-Matra. With it, they were able to subjugate the Kohr-Ah fleet. However, instead of destroying them, or forcing them to abide by the Path of Now and Forever, they let them go. They let the Kohr-Ah go to perpetrate their Eternal Doctrin upon half the galaxy.
If the Kzer-Za really wanted the Kohr-Ah stopped, they would have stopped them themselves.
They do, in the end, become desperate -- they're very aware that the Kohr-Ah are quite probably stronger than they are, and that the slaves they've taken under their wing have everything to lose if they don't win the Doctrinal Conflict.
How desperate can they possibly be? If they really wanted to win the war, they could have just deployed the Sa-Matra. Screw the "rules"; if they wanted to win, if they truly cared about other species, then they would have done so.
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Art
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The Kzer-Za are not antiheroes. At one point in their past, they could have helped resurrect a Sentient Milieu; they chose the Path of Now and Forever instead. And they have been following that path ever sense.
More importantly, they found the Sa-Matra. With it, they were able to subjugate the Kohr-Ah fleet. However, instead of destroying them, or forcing them to abide by the Path of Now and Forever, they let them go. They let the Kohr-Ah go to perpetrate their Eternal Doctrin upon half the galaxy.
If the Kzer-Za really wanted the Kohr-Ah stopped, they would have stopped them themselves.
Well, they're not *heroes*, in the human sense, but that doesn't make them villains in the human sense either. They're antiheroes, figures who take the role of hero in their own story despite their lack of conformity to normal conventions of a hero.
The Kzer-Za do want the Kohr-Ah stopped, but they don't think the way you or I do. They're crippled by the Ur-Quan's deepest cultural flaw, their inability to empathize with other races or see non-Ur-Quan as fully "human". Deep down they don't feel they have the moral right to slaughter or enslave fellow Ur-Quan. Pure force is the rule among non-Ur-Quan, but they *have* to respect the rights of their fellow Ur-Quan. It's the same logic among humans that makes all but the most psychotically pro-animal-rights human respect the right of other humans to use animals as they wish, and allow other humans to torture and slaughter animals rather than raise their hand against their fellow humans in force. As much as we love our inferiors, it doesn't give us the right to infringe on the rights of our equals.[/quote]
How desperate can they possibly be? If they really wanted to win the war, they could have just deployed the Sa-Matra. Screw the "rules"; if they wanted to win, if they truly cared about other species, then they would have done so.
You're thinking like a human. The Kzer-Za care a lot about their slave races, but they do *not* think of them as equals. They may disagree with, resent and hate the Kohr-Ah, but the Kohr-Ah *are* their equals. It's built into their psychology, remember? Deep xenophobia that only shuts off for mating behaviors, that's only allowed to make exceptions for members of the same species.
Sure, it's a cultural presupposition we would like to think we lack, but it's still there, and just because the Kzer-Za are deeply bound by it doesn't mean that they care about their slaves as much as their nature and their culture will allow. Humans have always exhibited similar behavior -- there were plenty of Europeans who opposed slavery of Africans, but for most of history they were unwilling to go to war against their fellow Europeans to stop slavery outside their own borders, preferring to take legal and diplomatic action (that probably translates to the Doctrinal Conflict of the SC2 universe); the American Civil War was a rare exception. And the Ur-Quan have much deeper instinctive and cultural reasons to be xenophobic than humans ever did.
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Chrispy
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Random question. I know Jouni used Orion Platinum, but you other guys didn't share what software you used. What did you use?
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Chrispy
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Awsome, thanks a bundle.
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VOiD
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Let me also remind y'all that you can add comments to the tracks that you intensely like/dislike on the Precursors' website (www.medievalfuture.com/precursors). Any feedback is welcome!
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Dehumanizer
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Hope nobody is offended by this.
General opinion: most of the new music is kind of "chill out", relaxing, electronic music. While it's certainly of very good quality, I think that sometimes it can lack some intensity or passion, and it may not be the best for the game. Some tracks, like the new Hyperspace one, is great to listen to when doing something else or just needing to relax, but I think it's greatly misplaced in the game.
Also, and related to the uniformity of genre, I think some of the tunes really beg for a different genre, less electronic. The Thraddash is an exception, but I don't think it goes far enough.
Now, a few comments - not about all of the songs, since I don't have them here - I'm writing this from work.
Hyperspace: as I said, great music, but *not* for SC2, and especially not for hyperspace. Riku's original version gave a sense of adventure, exploration, "let's see what's out there"; the new one doesn't, at all.
Ur-Quan: wonderful! Grows a lot on you. But I still don't like the "knife" sound, like most people here. Normal, non-electronic drums (like an orchestra or a metal band) would be great, IMHO.
Kohr-Ah: very, very good. To those who didn't like it: have you listened to a long conversation with a Kohr-Ah with the new music? Like when you tell them "Hold! What you're doing is wrong!"? Gives exactly the right feeling. Only one problem: the beat. As someone else said in this thread, "you should NEVER be able to dance to the Kohr-Ah music".
Thraddash: wonderful, but, as I said before, I wish it was more "metal-like". Heavier guitars, heavier drums.
VUX: same as the Thraddash. Very good guitar, but I wish it was heavier.
Starbase: ooh, a new one! Very, very good, but unfortunately, it's on a screen where no player stays for more than 3 seconds (unless he's intentionally listening to all the music)...
Battle: sorry, the 3DO version sounds better...
Druuge: another great one. Again, wish it was a bit heavier (you can see I like metal ), more intense, and with a lot more screams... but I also don't much like the drums near the end - looks like you're trying out the music software.
Mycon: should, IMHO, sound more "mysterious", and maybe less "relaxing". The .MOD version was better in those respects.
Wish list:
1- more "metallic" versions of the Thraddash, VUX and Druuge tracks
2- the Ur-Quan song with different drums
3- the Kohr-Ah song without the beats.
And for the future... please, please, please do something great with the Yehat song! I always imagine it like an epic metal ballad - powerful, sad, intense. An electronic version would, IMHO, ruin it.
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VOiD
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Hope nobody is offended by this.
Nobody should be offended by well-argued criticism.
General opinion: most of the new music is kind of "chill out", relaxing, electronic music. While it's certainly of very good quality, I think that sometimes it can lack some intensity or passion, and it may not be the best for the game.
[snip]
Also, and related to the uniformity of genre, I think some of the tunes really beg for a different genre, less electronic. The Thraddash is an exception, but I don't think it goes far enough.
The genres employed in the remixing reflects the fact that we are but four remixers: we're limited to the musical styles that we can handle, composition-wise. Also, since the game is set in the far future, a mostly electronic score seems a little fitting. One should also consider the fact that much of the music is made to be background music, played behind the dialogue. The music cannot be too intrusive. Try the music in the game instead of only listening to the pieces by themselves.
Ur-Quan: wonderful! Grows a lot on you. But I still don't like the "knife" sound, like most people here. Normal, non-electronic drums (like an orchestra or a metal band) would be great, IMHO.
This was one of the most difficult remixes we've done (me and TiLT); what you hear is the third version of the track... We're aware of the criticism of... certain elements of the percussion  , we'll see if we can do something about that after pack 4 comes out.
Kohr-Ah: very, very good. To those who didn't like it: have you listened to a long conversation with a Kohr-Ah with the new music? Like when you tell them "Hold! What you're doing is wrong!"? Gives exactly the right feeling. Only one problem: the beat. As someone else said in this thread, "you should NEVER be able to dance to the Kohr-Ah music".
Notice that another, more calm and menacing remix is available as a bonus track.
Thraddash: wonderful, but, as I said before, I wish it was more "metal-like". Heavier guitars, heavier drums.
I'm aware of this problem in the track. We are considering composing an extended version of it in the future, and one of the things I'd add in, is double-tracked guitars, which would definitely make the track heavier. In my view, the drums are not the problem.
VUX: same as the Thraddash. Very good guitar, but I wish it was heavier.
You're quite fond of the ol' metal, aren't you?
Starbase: ooh, a new one! Very, very good, but unfortunately, it's on a screen where no player stays for more than 3 seconds (unless he's intentionally listening to all the music)...
Yeah, well, sorry about that. Feel free to look at it as a bonus for the ones who actually bother to listen to it ("Does it ever end? No wait, there's more!!"). Also, I think the background image works as a nice, very low-tech music video...
Druuge: another great one. Again, wish it was a bit heavier (you can see I like metal ), more intense, and with a lot more screams... but I also don't much like the drums near the end - looks like you're trying out the music software.
Mark Vera did this one; I've mentioned sending him guitar samples for the main melody, and he was positive of the idea. After pack 4, though...
Wish list:
1- more "metallic" versions of the Thraddash, VUX and Druuge tracks
2- the Ur-Quan song with different drums
3- the Kohr-Ah song without the beats.
Your wishes have been duly noted. We'll see what can be done...
And for the future... please, please, please do something great with the Yehat song! I always imagine it like an epic metal ballad - powerful, sad, intense. An electronic version would, IMHO, ruin it.
Well, the remix is being done by Mark Vera, and you pretty well know his style from the previous releases... not to worry, though, I'm sure he'll do admirably.
Finally, let me point out that we DO listen to criticism. It's easy for us to get so involved in our own work that we really don't consider the possibility that people may not be entirely happy with everything. And after all, we're not doing these remixes to satisfy our own egos, we're trying to make tracks that are both fitting to the races they represent (and, let's be fair: some of the original music is not quite fitting. Some of it is not even good music) and work well as pieces of music in their own right. And we also have to try not to piss off the die-hard fans of the original music, which, believe me, is not the easiest task. 
Hmm. This turned out to be a much longer post than I had planned. Thanks for the comments!
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Art
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Did you try the alternate Kohr-Ah remix, by Jouni Airaksinen ("Eternal Doctrine")? It wasn't as edgy as the Kohr-Ah mix in the main package, but it kept a lot of what I thought of as the feel of the original and wasn't dancey at all.
Also, did you really think the remixed Mycon is more relaxing than the original Mycon? The original was very lullaby-ish... the soft beeps almost did put me to sleep a couple of times, especially while obsessively listening to the Mycon's endless meaningless monologues looking for clues. (They really are a race suffering from a collective form of full-blown Alzheimer's, and the original music reflects this well.) The new version seems very... well... dramatic. Very flames-shooting-out-of-spouts and simmering-lava and mindless-organic-plague. Nice, but without the contrast I felt in the first one. The Mycon's menace comes from the calm, almost friendly demeanor they have while discussing their plans to kill all non-Mycon life and spread themselves across the universe.
Do listen to the alternate Battle tracks if you haven't. It's the sort of song that can't be remixed enough, like Hyperspace, and the Mortal Melee version is a lot closer to the 3DO in feel.
It's a good thing none of us has absolute control over the remixers, because I think they've struck a good balance here: I think there's almost too much metal and not enough electronica where I want it. The Druuge stretches my tolerance, and while the VUX mix is insanely cool I miss the old beepy .MOD version (and the alternate acid version doesn't have the same punch).
For me '80s-style electronica would provide the sense of strangeness and alienness that made the grandeur of the original Yehat theme so compelling; their story is being told in a language that stirs our passions but that we still don't quite understand. I always thought of their theme as the opposite number of the Ilwrath theme; both themes say things that are very human (proud and tragic, cruel and cunning) but do it in a not-quite-human language. I liked the style behind the Ilwrath remix and think the Yehat should have the same ethos. Doing it with drums and guitars humanizes it too much, would make it too raw, not ethereal enough. At least that's my opinion (and I think Jouni Airaksinen agrees with me, since he's said he's doing Yehat '80s-style like the original).
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Dehumanizer
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Thanks for the reply!
The genres employed in the remixing reflects the fact that we are but four remixers: we're limited to the musical styles that we can handle, composition-wise. Also, since the game is set in the far future, a mostly electronic score seems a little fitting. One should also consider the fact that much of the music is made to be background music, played behind the dialogue. The music cannot be too intrusive. Try the music in the game instead of only listening to the pieces by themselves.
I understand that point, and, yes, I agree, it can't be too intrusive. Note that I didn't say that the music, or the music genres, are wrong - I just have some personal wishes about a few.
You're quite fond of the ol' metal, aren't you?
Quite. But, no, I don't expect or even want the game to have a metal soundtrack - the only game with one that I can remember, BTW, is Doom. It wouldn't work in UQM, except for a few races like the Thraddash. Hmm, I wonder how a metal version of the Ilwrath music would sound... 
Yeah, well, sorry about that. Feel free to look at it as a bonus for the ones who actually bother to listen to it ("Does it ever end? No wait, there's more!!"). Also, I think the background image works as a nice, very low-tech music video...
I almost wonder if the game shouldn't be slightly altered so that there is more stuff to do at that screen...
Finally, let me point out that we DO listen to criticism. It's easy for us to get so involved in our own work that we really don't consider the possibility that people may not be entirely happy with everything. And after all, we're not doing these remixes to satisfy our own egos, we're trying to make tracks that are both fitting to the races they represent (and, let's be fair: some of the original music is not quite fitting. Some of it is not even good music) and work well as pieces of music in their own right. And we also have to try not to piss off the die-hard fans of the original music, which, believe me, is not the easiest task.
Again, thanks for everything, you're doing a great job.
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