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Topic: Official remix addon 3: The Ur-Quan Hierarchy (Read 33351 times)
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taleden
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I'm writing this from work, so I'm going to comment just on the Ur-Quan theme, which I have listened to a lot and am pretty familiar with; I'll save commentary on the rest until I'm home and can listen to them more. A disclaimer: I'm going to comment on this piece as if it's not finished and suggest ways to improve it; I realize that this is meant to be an official release and that the track has already passed the 'beta' stage, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't expect you guys to go back and redo it based just on what I say. 
There's been some discussion about whether the Ur-Quan's theme should be 'scary' or not - the Ur-Quan, after all, are the slightly more compassionate ones who sorta care about us lil' guys, in a weird, patronizing kind of way. In that sense, I agree that their music should have some of that compassion/menace ambiguity. On the other hand, that interpretation of the Ur-Quan only makes sense after you've played the game through - for someone who's currently playing it through, having a noticably compassionate-sounding theme for the Ur-Quan would just be confusing. When a new player runs into that probe right off the bat, they should hear something to tell them, right off the bat, that THESE are the guys they should be afraid of. So if you put some compassion into that theme, make sure it's subtle enough that you only notice it after you've played through the game and understand the Ur-Quan better; at first listen, I really think it should sound menacing and imperial. Better yet, it should sound like it belongs to someone so menacing and imperial and powerful that they're not even really paying attention to you while they talk to you, and that's a good thing, becuase if they were, you'd just be dead instantly. I'm thinking, Sauron-type menacing.
That said, I think it does sound menacing and imperial, and I like that. In fact, I think it should sound more menacing and imperial, both by making the main violin line louder and maybe adding some more depth and orchestra-hall-style-reverberation - really make it dominate the piece. In any other imperial-sounding track, the drums would be leading, but in this one it should be that violin - always there, leading a legion of soldiers as they march to battle and a sure, unavoidable victory. I would almost compare this track to the Star Wars Imperial March - in that one it was the horns that led, but they led so commandingly that every time you heard that song, you immediately envisioned thousands of armed stormtroopers marching in lock-step, with some AT-ATs behind them and maybe a Star Destroyer just visible in the sky, and it scared the hell out of you.
I don't like the voices. As a stand-alone song, that chorus in the middle is kinda nice - it's a little chilling, and a chorus usually does a pretty good job of adding that little extra kick to an already commanding piece of music. But in this case I think it's out of place, and by 'this case', I mean background dialogue music for SC2 in general: I don't like the 'we come in peace' in the Slylandro theme, either (but I'll comment on other tracks later). I just think it's out of place when there's already spoken dialogue being played on top of the music; as one of the remixers already commented, this is supposed to be playing behind the dialogue, so it shouldn't be too intrusive - I think having human voices in theme music is intrusive when combined with other voices reading dialogue. Not a lot, but enough for me to wish it wasn't there.
Finally, I'll add my $.02 about the 'knife drum' or whatever we're calling it now. When I first heard this track I played it over and over because I love it (in fact, my ultimate frisbee team has entered our tournament season and I listen to that track 2 or 3 times on full blast before every game, because it really pumps me up) - and at first, I didn't notice the knife drum. But once I came here and read people's reaction to it, I listened again and now that I hear it, I don't like it either, but I'll tell you why, and maybe this will be a little more illuminating: I don't accept it as a conscious choice by the composer. When I listen to old game music (of the MIDI-game-music era, before even the original SC2), my ear has the following internal monologue:
Hmm.. this music is very low-quality. I think that sound is supposed to be a piano, but since this is an old game and they couldn't really synthesize good-sounding piano music at that point, it sounds like a stopwatch gone mad. But I know it's supposed to be a piano, so I'm just going to fill in the missing sample depth and quality before I pass it along to the brain.
My ear has the same reaction to that knife sound. It doesn't sound like a sample that was chosen willingly - it sounds like a sample that was chosen because the composer wanted to use something else, but couldn't. The problem is, I'm not exactly sure what that something else should be; people have suggested using a real snare drum, and that might work. People have also suggested dropping it entirely, but I don't think that would work - the section near the end that doesn't have that noise sounds empty.. there definitely needs to be something higher-frequency to alternate with and counterbalance the timpani drumbeat. Well, I take that back - there needs to be a balance in the track on the whole, but the one section near the end that currently has just the timpani is fine.. it sounds pretty good to drop the balance and then reintroduce it. Have you tried a slightly higher-tone timpani? Like, still in the bass realm, but a few steps higher? I think that might be enough to still maintain balance - the violin line is fairly high, and as long as there was a second drum to balance the low timpani beat-wise, the violin might do a decent job balancing it tone-wise.
More when I get home
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VOiD
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At least that's my opinion (and I think Jouni Airaksinen agrees with me, since he's said he's doing Yehat '80s-style like the original).
As he's also doing with the Syreen music.
That said, I think it does sound menacing and imperial, and I like that. In fact, I think it should sound more menacing and imperial, both by making the main violin line louder and maybe adding some more depth and orchestra-hall-style-reverberation - really make it dominate the piece. In any other imperial-sounding track, the drums would be leading, but in this one it should be that violin -
Our first attempt at remixing the 'Quan theme was actually a full-blown orchestral version, but that one stranded because we simply don't have access to full orchestra instruments of proper quality. The strings we took from that one and into version 3, the final release, are actually string quartet samples. When used standing alone, it sounded somewhat like an intimate, four-piece concert, which simply doesn't sound overwhelming enough. We might post a snippet from the original attempt at some point, which would probably give you a good idea as to why we decided to scrap it.
I don't like the voices. As a stand-alone song, that chorus in the middle is kinda nice - it's a little chilling, and a chorus usually does a pretty good job of adding that little extra kick to an already commanding piece of music. But in this case I think it's out of place, (...)
I'm assuming that you're talking about the male solo tenor voice here, and not the full choir that's going wild with chromatic variations in the background.
I can understand some people's reservations about us using a solo tenor in the foreground of the piece; it is, after all, a surprising and unusual element in any non-operatic music. What surprises me, though, is the fact that no one has commented on the sudden organ break, when everything else stops. To my mind, the tenor comes in the wake of this sudden dynamic pause (of sorts) in the music, and sounds less intrusive because of that. But my mind is notorious for its mistakes, so I'm not claiming to have the right answer here. 
When I first heard this track I played it over and over because I love it (in fact, my ultimate frisbee team has entered our tournament season and I listen to that track 2 or 3 times on full blast before every game, because it really pumps me up)
I'll consider that high praise, if you don't mind. 
(...) knife drum. (...) I don't accept it as a conscious choice by the composer. (...) It doesn't sound like a sample that was chosen willingly - it sounds like a sample that was chosen because the composer wanted to use something else, but couldn't.
Just to correct you here: we were still in the doldrums with Mk.2 of our Ur-Quan Kzer-Za remix, when I came across a set of percussion samples made up entirely of mouth noises! I tried the samples out, and the attempts I made, with TiLT's deft assistance, turned into Mk.3, which is what whas released. The sample was indeed consciously chosen.
The main advantage of using such a sample, instead of snare drums, timpanis and whatnot - besides the fact that it does fill out the higher frequencies and, as such, helps balance the overall sound - and, indeed, one of the things that made me want to use it in the first place; it sounds a lot more alien than almost any other kind of percussion you can come up with.
More when I get home
...more? 
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taleden
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Our first attempt at remixing the 'Quan theme was actually a full-blown orchestral version, but that one stranded because we simply don't have access to full orchestra instruments of proper quality.
I've heard other people say, and I definitely agree, that we'd be interested in such a version, should it ever become feasible. I fully encourage anyone to come forward with suitable samples, just to hear what it would sound like.
The strings ... are actually string quartet samples. When used standing alone, it sounded somewhat like an intimate, four-piece concert, which simply doesn't sound overwhelming enough.
I don't want the strings solo, I just want them a little more prominent, and with more abience behind them - reverberation, whatever the technical term is, I'm not sure. 'Overwhelming', in fact, may be exactly the right term - I want them to be more overwhelming. In fact, the comparison with the SW Imperial March got me to thinking - would horns work here? A few french horns or tubas might complement the violins and add that nice ambient overpowering undertone I'm looking for without making the violins too exclusively prominent. But you're right, intimate is on the wrong end of the spectrum. (by the way, what exactly is an overpowering undertone? the world may never know)
I can understand some people's reservations about us using a solo tenor in the foreground of the piece; it is, after all, a surprising and unusual element in any non-operatic music. ... no one has commented on the sudden organ break, when everything else stops. To my mind, the tenor comes in the wake of this sudden dynamic pause (of sorts) in the music, and sounds less intrusive because of that.
My objection to the tenor is not because it doesn't belong in non-operatic music; in fact, I think that tenor would sound great in all kinds of non-operatic music, I just don't think it sounds good here, behind spoken dialogue. Similarly, the organs don't sound at all out of place to me because they are just as overwhelming and imperial sounding as the violin riff - they sound right at home. Maybe that's part of the problem.. coming out of this organ break which is a great mid-climax to the piece, there's this weird tenor, before we get back into the regular imperial march of things.
I'll consider that high praise, if you don't mind.
I don't mind at all, since it was meant as such. 
Just to correct you here: ... The sample was indeed consciously chosen.
I didn't mean to say *I*, my conscious mind, didn't accept it, I meant my ear and my unconscious mind didn't accept it. *I* know you chose that sample because *I* know you weren't limited the way oldschool MIDI composers were. My objection is that the particular sample you chose causes my ear to react as though it wasn't a willing choice; my ear tries to remap the sample on the fly into what it thinks actually belongs there, becuase it doesn't think that sample belongs there.
The main advantage of using such a sample, instead of snare drums, timpanis and whatnot - besides the fact that it does fill out the higher frequencies and, as such, helps balance the overall sound - and, indeed, one of the things that made me want to use it in the first place; it sounds a lot more alien than almost any other kind of percussion you can come up with.
I can understand that. I guess my overall suggestion here is of the lame stage director type (and I know, cuz I've done some stage acting): "I don't know what I don't like about that, but I don't like it. Try something else, which I won't specify for you, because I don't really know what I want. But just try something else." Also, if (in my opinion) you're already sacrificing good sound for alien-ness, what's with that human tenor? 
...more?
I know, I know, and I'm sorry. Out of respect for the sysop's poor hard drive, I'm thinking about gzipping and UUencoding my future posts. Whaddya guys think?
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taleden
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So, I was in the process of writing up commentary on the other tracks from this pack when I realized that I was being really longwinded again. I don't want to subject this thread to another super wordy review just for the sake of my own ego, so, do the composers find this kind of commentary useful? I can give you guys pages of feedback if you want it, but since you're already basically done with these tracks, it might not be very useful to you, and I don't want to be that guy who spouts endless opinions just to .. erm .. read himself type? Dunno what the analogue is. I will promise, though, to try to be more concise per track than my Now and Forever comments. Oy. I didn't realize that was so monstrously long until I posted it and saw it next to all the other posts. 
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2004, 09:53:02 am by taleden »
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VOiD
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The straight answer: Yes, we do find these comments useful. At least I do. One can never get too much feedback, in my opinion, so if you have to stretch out over a plethora of paragraphs to say what you have to say, so be it! Besides, if you have opinions on the remix packs, I can think of few better places to voice those opinions than in this particular thread, on this particular board...
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I should note that the last thing I would want to hear would be the strings in the Kzer-Za remix replaced by brass, and I am pretty fond of that wild tenor and the swishy percussion, too.
No, I'm not being contrary for contrariness' sake. But the original Kzer-Za theme was one of my *least* favorites from the original game, because though a powerful melody, the execution was just so... cliched. I felt like I was watching Star Wars, and to me that's *not* a good thing; I've had far enough of John Williams-ish big brassy bombast, with his villainous music that booms and booms and booms *pure evil* into your head and his suspense music that booms and booms *high drama* into your head and his romantic music that lilts and whines *sweet sweet love* into your head. Bah.
A good villain should not be a cookie-cutter melodrama villain, and the Ur-Quan aren't; so why should they have a theme that, however well-conceived, in execution has B-movie bad guy written all over it? The Ur-Quan music is the first race music the player hears; she should hear a well-developed piece that draws her in and makes her interested rather than prompting her to dismiss the Ur-Quan as cheesy sci-fi villains. The Ur-Quan opening speech is already a fairly blunt, vicious threat; I'd like the music accompanying it to have subtlety.
The Kzer-Za remix as it is isn't perfect, but it's very good at sketching a different kind of villain. It by no means is a piece that depicts a struggle between compassion and cruelty; I don't hear any sweetness and light in it. The difference between this and the original is that the original simply blared imperious command, while this has a trace of yearning, of desire. Great villains aren't black hat bad guys who are evil because they're evil; they're great souls corrupted by some burning pathology that twists and mutates them. The Ur-Quan theme shouldn't just be loud and imperious; it should have a sense -- not of compassion and goodness and virtue -- but of something different, honor and nobility and a strength that's compelling at the same time that it's threatening. Giving the main theme room to work around its supporting themes helps add that sense of depth, of villains who are complex, vulnerable people rather than being-evil machines, at least to my ear.
And I do disagree about the tenor voice -- it *adds* alien-ness. An operatic tenor does not sound "human" in the humdrum, everyday sense of the word. Operas communicate grand, unfiltered passions, usually rooted in stories of the (to us) ancient past; to someone used to hearing rock musicians who mumble and rasp into the mic, a well-trained tenor ringing out high notes clear as a bell is as compellingly, seductively alien as a voice can get and still sound voicelike. In most scores we don't associate classical choirs and operatic voices with humanity -- quite the opposite. In Lord of the Rings the hobbits' theme is entirely instrumental, and it's the elves who have a lilting vocal piece -- a human voice that has been trained to be gain a "pure" sound with fully harmonic overtones sounds weird and unusual to our ears, much weirder than any instrument could precise because it's a human voice that's been altered. The classical choir is almost stereotypically used to convey the ethereal, the mystical, the arcane. Especially when the voice is suddenly, unexpectedly belting out unmelodic notes during a break in the main theme -- it sounds like an interruption of music, not like the music itself. The voice isn't singing the song, it's interrupting the song with a brief cry of pure, unanalyzable emotion. It's the farthest thing in the world from corrupting the purity of the music with prosaic human speech -- the exact opposite.
But then I'm in general biased toward treating human voices as just another instrument, unless there are actual lyrics conveying an actual verbal message in the voice. "We come in peace" is borderline, but it's acceptable because the whole point of the sample is to overuse the phrase until it becomes meaningless background noise to illustrate how unintelligible the Probes' intentions are. Similarly this tenor voice is clearly not a human trying to talk to us; it's a really alien-sounding yet compelling (because of its still-human qualities) *Ur-Quan* sound and I wouldn't dream of taking it out.
On the other hand, I would revolt at putting the "Potato Juice" lyrics into the game, ever. (And actually listening to a lyrics version almost ruined the song for me as a background theme. Though it would've helped if they'd been *good* lyrics...)
Okay, enough shameless pretending like I write music and know what I'm talking about. But I do like the piece a lot as it is. While a full-orchestral arrangement would certainly be no bad thing and I'd love to hear it, the version as it is now, with the odd vocals and the electronic percussion and the more... contained sound of the strings, is the version I'm probably going to think of as the "real" version for the near future.
(Don't feel bad, taleden. You're not the only long-winded one.)
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Okay, I spent a lot of time saying what I liked about Kzer-Za, so I'll try and spend a shorter amount of time saying what I dislike about Kohr-Ah. (New Year's resolution: spend more time on the positive than the negative if you can.)
I can't really explain it in concrete terms, but here goes: The original Kohr-Ah theme did a very good job of being simple, quiet, and yet oozing with menace. It had very little percussion and a quite simple melody, but the melody with its long, drawn-out notes punctuated by a slow, relentless beat went *perfectly* with the voice actor for the Kohr-Ah. A very alien, cold, hard sound -- so cold and hard an alien that we can't even perceive their emotions, only a soothing, flowing menace, so much loss for so long that they've found a dark kind of contentment and peace within despair, so insane that the madmen now appear completely calm, unconflicted, implacable and unstoppable and confident in their insanity.
Yeah, long on emotional description and short on specifics, but it was soothing and relaxing while at the same time being scary as hell.
Problem: The two remixes don't square this circle very well. You have one that's definitely menacing and scary as hell, but menacing in an *obvious* way -- it has a backbeat that sounds like it came out of a horror movie or dark music video, a skittering, clattering, snickering evil that grins maniacally at its victims. The Kohr-Ah don't skitter with a bouncing backbeat behind them -- they don't sneak up on you through the shadows (the skittering beat) then grin at you malevolently and cackle your doom (the skittering beat buliding up and breaking into the loud bass theme). No, they glide expressionlessly forward, always forward; they move with the sound of flowing water, their beat never changes tempo.
Which brings me to remix two. It's the one I'm currently using, because I like it a lot more -- it *is* quiet and ambient and menacing and oh so smooth. But it's... too quiet and ambient and not enough menacing. It's just waiting for something bad to happen without having anything bad actually happen within it. You guys have a Kohr-Ah Battle remix; this put me in mind of a Kohr-Ah version of a Solar System Exploration theme. Great for drifting through space warily eyeing the Marauders drifting by you; not so great for meeting the Kohr-Ah face-to-face, where the menace is palpable.
I understand the original .MOD has little material to work with in terms of melody, and yet I'd still like to see something closer to the original in sound and style. The original theme filled out and deepened the way the Kzer-Za was would be great; but as it stands neither of these two mixes, which I think of as very reinterpretive mixes, really does it for me.
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taleden
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The straight answer: Yes, we do find these comments useful. ... if you have to stretch out over a plethora of paragraphs to say what you have to say, so be it!
Fair enough. I'll *try* to be more concise, but it's not really my nature, so no promises.
I should note that the last thing I would want to hear would be the strings in the Kzer-Za remix replaced by brass, and I am pretty fond of that wild tenor and the swishy percussion, too.
I would never suggest that the strings be replaced with brass, because I wholeheartedly agree with your next paragraph - for a song like this, leading with brass has been done too many times. I like the strings. I love the strings. But they sound naked to me - they sound like they're alone and they don't want to be, they want some companionship, some other instrument to march in step with them and contribute some more volume (in the spatial sense, not the decibel sense). I'm not sure what that instrument should be - horns seemed like an option, maybe they'd be a bad one, I dunno. I'm not a composer either, so I'm sure most of my suggestions would sound pretty bad if executed literally, but I'm hoping that if I make these suggestions to people who are composers, it will inspire them to try something that actually will sound pretty good, even if it's not exactly what I suggested.
The Ur-Quan music is the first race music the player hears; she should hear a well-developed piece that draws her in and makes her interested rather than prompting her to dismiss the Ur-Quan as cheesy sci-fi villains.
I entirely agree. I think where we differ is in how we hear the main melodic tune that's already there, played by the strings. I already hear some ambuguity there; I hear those strings singing with a tone of longing and regret, but also with the sad resolve of one who has committed themselves to a course of action that is not so much desirable as necessary. In wanting to flesh out the strings a little more, I'm trying to strengthen and emphasize what I hear as the main source of the ambuguity we're both looking for; if you hear those strings saying nothing but "I am Imperial! Quiver before my might!" then I fully understand your objection.
And I do disagree about the tenor voice -- it *adds* alien-ness. ... a well-trained tenor ringing out high notes clear as a bell is as compellingly, seductively alien as a voice can get and still sound voicelike ... Especially when the voice is suddenly, unexpectedly belting out unmelodic notes during a break in the main theme -- it sounds like an interruption of music, not like the music itself. The voice isn't singing the song, it's interrupting the song with a brief cry of pure, unanalyzable emotion. It's the farthest thing in the world from corrupting the purity of the music with prosaic human speech -- the exact opposite.
I thought about this for a while, and I agree with you. If this were a song meant to convey the nature of the Ur-Quan which was meant to be heard outside the game, I would absolutely say to leave the tenor. However, I think this highlights my absolute biggest comment to the remixers, and I know I'm longwinded so I wouldn't blame them for skimming, but if you're a remixer, if you read nothing else I ever say, read this next paragraph at least:
You have to make a decision about what you're composing these tracks for: are they primarily for use outside the game, or inside the game. If your goal is to write tracks for us to listen to in our playlists, put on mix cds, play in the background while we read books or before frisbee games to pump us up, then you are on the right track. But if your goal is to remix the in-game music, and therefore compose new tracks which sound good in-game, then I really think you need to tweak some things; in this case, that tenor sounds great in principle, but it's out of place in-game. I actually went out and found and Ur-Quan to talk to in the game last night just so I could hear the entire track with actual Ur-Quan dialogue in front of it, and that tenor completely threw me. During the conversation, I was listening to the Ur-Quan speak and absorbing the music mostly subconsciously, which is exactly right - it's background music, it should create an ambience for me, but I shouldn't be listening to it more than I'm listening to the dialogue. But as soon as that tenor broke in, it immediately grabbed my attention away from the dialogue and made me think "what the hell? is the Ur-Quan torturing some poor opera singer in the bowels of his ship while he's talking to me?" Similarly, I've noticed that just about every one of the original songs for SC2 was written in order to loop seamlessly, because it sounded better that way in the game; we'll hear most of these songs end and restart when we're listening to them in the game, so it's better if that happens without us noticing. But the remixed tracks don't follow the rules of loop-able game music, they follow the rules of regular music that starts with silence, begins, plays, and then quiets down and ends; when you loop that in the game, it's very noticable, and it sounds bad.
Basically, what I'm saying is, you can't achieve both goals with one track. You can either compose these songs to sound great in our playlists, or you can compose them to sound great in the game, but if you do both, they'll sound, at best, mediocre in both situations. Maybe you should release two versions of each track? One that loops well and doesn't conflict with the spoken dialogue in the game, and one that's more natural sounding on its own, to listen to outside the game?
This concludes my most important comment. You may now return to skimming.
(Don't feel bad, taleden. You're not the only long-winded one.)
I've found my soul mate!
I was about to respond to your Kohr-Ah comments as well, but this post is already pretty long and I haven't even posted my own yet, so, til next time.
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Chrispy
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A random point that I just thought of now.
I really liked the old cold moons orbit MOD (the beepy one). Any chance of making another version of that with the original mood?
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2004, 01:16:40 am by Chrispy »
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Chrispy
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I guess I just assumed them to be mods. Its the one that plays when you fly around earths moon (the beepy one).
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bkindt
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I love the remixes!
One question. Is there anywhere one can download the orignal music in MP3 format? I'd like to listen to both the before and the after versions together.
Thanks!
Ben
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All relevant .MODs and .OGGs are in the sound pack that comes with the Ur-Quan Masters distribution. They're zipped, so you can extract them with any standard unzipping application like Winzip.
Windows Media Player doesn't play .MODs and .OGGs by default, but you can find plug-ins that will allow it to. Probably a better bet is to download WinAmp, though, as WinAmp is a better program in general.
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