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Topic: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread (Read 70555 times)
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ThisAlex
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Posts: 9
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
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Maybe I wasn't being clear. The UN called Israel racist. It is right there. Period. To call Israel racist is ludicrous. To defend the people that called Israel racist is insane.
There is no justification for the UN's comments. NONE.
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 03:11:00 am by ThisAlex »
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meep-eep
Forum Admin
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Oh, I didn't realise you were on the conference yourself.
I was not, so I can't judge the tone of the summit. I have only got the reports to go on. So I tried to stick to the facts, being the actual draft statement. For news reports I take in mind who wrote it, and focus on the quotes in the article. I chose to link to the BBC because it doesn't usually express opinions. If you want anything else, take your pick.
(I think you meant left-wing instead of right-wing btw).
As far as I know, the draft has been prepared by a working group, after which there's a larger discussion about its contents, changes are made, and a vote is taken.
It is the draft (which still contains the disputed texts), which I linked to. It doesn't show "what the UN thinks". If anything, it shows what the working group thought. The UN as an organisation (which includes the US and Israel) doesn't "think" anything until the vote has been taken.
I can agree that the text in the draft looks rather confrontational, and is bound to have had a negative effect on the tone of the following discussion. However, rather than trying to change the document and attempt to make a positive contribution in the rest of the summit to the not unimportant issue of discrimination, the US and Israel took off.
Neither is the draft a report of the proceedings. As a draft declaration, it is evidence. Your claim to the contrary suggest to me that at that time you made that claim you hadn't actually given it a close look.
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 03:17:26 am by meep-eep »
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“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
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ThisAlex
Zebranky food
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
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This is a good forum, where people call Jews in Israel racist.
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Shiver
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Hey guys, there's this funny video of Kerry and Bush insulting each other in the form of that "This land is your land" song. That's not really them singing, but the voice actors really sound like it. It's great because it's equally offensive to both sides so everyone can laugh at it.
http://www.jibjab.com/ - this should link to it.
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Lukipela
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The Ancient One
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Well well well. We seem to have traversed in the direction of israel. Methinks this'd fit better in a new thread, but I'll go with the flow, lest I be called a hypocrite. 
There are constant "condemnations" of Israel and the US, but I'll try to find some specifics for you later. I don't want to get too deep into this, so I'll just post a link to a reasonable solution I think you'll agree with. http://www.americantaskforce.org/101.htm
This again only pertains to Palestine and Israel. I asked you to show me how the U.N thwarts the US at "every turn", not kjust at this subject. Remmeber we actually discussed why the US doesn't need U.N approval to invade? What you're basically saying is : "Well the U.N doesn't agree with us on Israel, so we invaded Iraq." Not a very logical response. You'll have to forgive me for not looking through the link you provided, as I'm due at work shoertly. I assure I'll watch it later.
Please note the only ommission I feel should have been present in the presentation is that Arafat must be removed from the picture before there can be any chance of peace, he has clearly demonstrated his contempt for Israel and democracy. (two examples, when Barak offered Arafat 98% of what the Palistinians were asking for and Arafat refused, and recently wheen Arafat appointed his COUSIN to a key position is his government. Arafat is a clear dictator with only his own interests in mind)
This I actually agree on, Arafat has become a liability to both sides. Though he appears to have caved in under pressure now, he really isn't a very useful figure. Still, we'll just have to wait for the next presdential election eh?
Yes, it is wrong. It also is less wrong to kill (inadvertantly) an innocent Iraqi civilian for the sake of saving a greater number of other Iraqi civilians, and removing a great deal of guilty Iraqis. I believe you agree with me, at least partially:
Question Beta:
It’s a simple question with 2 possible answers. Yes or no. No large words required.
On a more serious note, less wrong and more wrong? Excellent, you live in a world of shades rather than black'n white most of the time, not Bio's stark white'n black. However, I'm sure there'd be a lot of people interested in seeing you prove this, including statisticvs for how many would have died otherwise, and how innocent those were compared to how many died now and how innocent those were.
They were happy to see Saddam go, but they were much more unhappy to see the Americans come. Attacking Iraq instead of say, Iran, helps protect against the risk of every muslim country uniting under one banner to cause an outright world war. Now that the presence is there though, if Iraq is rebuilt and becomes a flagship of Western Civilization, complete with prosperity and democracy for its people, these countries will not be able to keep small (alone unnoticable, added together unstoppable) ideas and values seep through their borders.
A flagship to be hated. No idea can cross a border that is closed, and radio signals to ears that are closed don't do wonder either. That's what people call propaganda, and if someone chooses not to believe in it they won't. Also, we haven't seen any of that prosperity and democracy fuinction yet. The same was attempted in Afghanistan, but that project isn't doing very well either. Perhaps it'd be wise of you not to take on faith that this grand experiment of yours will be successful. Likewise the battle in Vietnam was suppsoed to be easy, and I'm sure your peers of the time spoke of stabilizing democratic influences. And what happened?
It is no secret that children in many schools throughout the muslim world, Iraq included, are taught from the youngest of ages to hate everything non-muslim.
It would seem you advocate the rasism you accuse others of quite well. Many places do not have schools, and I'd like to see some concrete evidence befoee I believe that every muslim child is turned against us by teachings alone, rather than watching their sisters and parents starve and/or fall prey to diseases.
But what really stuns me is your entire point. "We invaded because their populations grow and all of them hate us"? And "Well, then we made up another reason and persuaded people who wouldn't accept the first reason to join us."? So you believe you actively lied to your allies to have them join you in an effort to stop people from hating you by bombing them?
Allow me to cite my good friend gonsen:
saying he did something when he didn't is called lying.
That presumably goes for Bush and Saddam as well.
Did you read D-999's response? Don't youi think that is more likely to make people hate you than something that is supposedly taught in some schools?
And even further, consider Chainiacs excellent point. This is very easily demonstrable here in Euorpe where you can easily divide Muslim immigrants into a few different categories.
1. Poor muslim immigrants keep their faith because it's all they have. Their children, who actually learn the language of the coountry do slightly better, but are still poor and believers. Their grandchildren speak the new language, learn more and become less religious. And this goes on.
2. Wealthy muslims come to the new country, believe somewhat but not that much. Their children don't believe at al land do splendid.
Now, only the people in 1. and their children are prone to blowing themselves up at all. By increasing education and living standards, by removing the hopelessness and apathy fro mtheir lives you give them a chance. Sure, they might still dislike the US, but their not going to get themselves kileld over it, they just bought a car!
Dammit, I'm runnign out of time. I'll adress the whole Israeli thing next time, juts let me say this as someone who knows quite a few jews/israelis and has been there.
It is equally racist to believe that everyone to beginning to a group is good as it is to believe that they are bad.
I.e "Black people are stupid because they are black" is just as stupid as
"Jews are always good because they are Jews".
To be continued....
EDIT: To be continued much later I'm afraid. My girlfriend is coming ovwer for the weekend as a surprise, to cheer up my dreary working life, so I very much doubt I'll post anyhting here before Monday. But keep the discussion going, once again I will be back!
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2004, 01:05:20 am by Lukipela »
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What's up doc?
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Lukipela
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Posts: 3620
The Ancient One
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Annd I'm back, and not through beating the dead donkey yet. It would seem however that with Bio gone, and ThisAlex receded to whnece he cameth, there wouldn't be much point in replying to this thread. Lucky for me i like the sound of my own voice eh?
To begin with, I'd like to point out that we've drifted away fro mthe original topic Thisalex. My last reply concerning iraq mostly concerned the famous question Beta. However, that's a side issue. I', not clear if you want to use the "They have it better now" as an pro-war argument. Ifthat is the case, feel free to respond accordingly to the E.U invading Cuba. They'd have it better under our rule.
So if we disreargd the whole, "they'd have it better if we invaded, that's all the reason we need!" argument, we come back to your other, less tasteful reason.
I'll try and reply to al your alternatives here I think...
If a), this has been discussed in depth, and you happily join the whole "I have faith" brigade as you can produce no evidence.
If b) maybe you should have listened to all the countires that didn't believe your claim? As world leaders you have a duty to make absolutely sure you take the right course in an issue as serious as this, rather than just going "Oops! Oh well, we were wrong". That's like China invading Taiwan and then going "Oh darn. We were wrong. Well, they have it better now".
If c) then you are actively lying to all your allies, and displaying quite a lot of arrogance at the same. I could point you to the last time western states tried to keep someone under control "because they are simple people and need a firm hand"... And look how well Africa turned out. This is equal to "muslims are poor misguided us hating souls that need to be educated... THROUGH WAR!!!" There's a very good reason for the media to rip you apart if you tried that.
For the rest of it, you seem to not have chosen to comment, so I'l lelave this open for you to reply to, if you're still around.
Niow, for Israel. To begin with, are you aware that you are writing on a online forum? If you for some reason should become agitated, nothing prevents you from taking a break for an hour or two, or even a day or two. Noone forces you to write replys staright away.
Meaning
I apologize for my outbreak, I had a surge of emotion and did not control myself.
is only relevant if you have some serious issues. Otherwsie, feel free to restrain yourself, go for a walk or something, mmkay?
Otherwise, Oxde really says it best:
If the UN is at odds with Israel on some occasion, this can be because the rest of the world is unobjectively against Israel, or it can be that the rest of the world actually has a point. If you're not prepared to at least consider the latter, any discussion relating the UN is doomed in advance.
Now I'm actually pro israeli. My sister lived there for several years, and her boyfriend is Jewish, and has served in the Israeli army, thus gaining Israeli citizenship. I do believe that the Jews have a right to a country of their own. Yet this doesn't mean I condone all actions Israerl take... wait a minute. I see the problem here. This is the same argument we had with io. Basically, your only an true ally if you unconditionallly support your friends no matter what they do! That's why France and Germany are bad states for not joining a war they weren't sure of, a true ally would have waded right in. And in a similar way, the US is a true ally because they are completely unwaivering in their staunch support for Israel.
I'd ratehr say that exactly this US attitude has created a lot fo these problems. The Israeli always have the mightiest country in the world to back them up. This means there is nothing that can keep them in check. The unfortunate result ; arrogant Israeli politicans doing everything and everything wrong from a PR point of view.
Remmebr the whole Stockholm incident? Israeli ambassador sees painting that seems to idolizer a suicidede bomber. Israeli ambassador rips down paining and destroys it. US goes "Oh yeah, that's cool. Crap painting!" Sweden is not amused.
Now personally I thought that painting should have bee nremoved. But for an AMBASSADOR to actually tear it down? No wonder public opinion at times goes against them.
Oh, and just for the sake of it:
To call Israel racist is ludicrous. To defend the people that called Israel racist is insane.
Is daft. Palestinians like it or not are i na troublesome place where they can get denied access to work and whatnot ion the whim of the Israelis. Now, Israel has a very good reason to do this grantyed, but they seem to have no incentive to work towards a lessening of these incidents. Both sides are basically trying to destroy eachother. And I'm not just sure why the word racist upset you so much. You're actions here are similar to those druing witch hunts or communist hunts. As soon as anyoner doesn't completely agree with you and your actions, they mucst ve witches/communists/Israelhaters!
That's it for now. More if someone actually turns up to debate
To sum up.
Bio : I believe in the goverment, they must be right even though there is no evidence. It's all for our own good.
ThisAlex: The evil muslims must be made to love us through violence, because we are infallible. Oh, and the UN stinks because hey dissed Israel! This means they have no credibility in any issue, even those that are completely unrelated to the Israeli matter.
Seriosuly boys.. Load up on arguments will ya? So far I seem to be debating with people disturbingly similar in some attitudes to those who believed in a strong leader and their absloute right nigh on 50 years ago. you know, One people, One empire, one leader? Lets all play follow the leader and punish the others.
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What's up doc?
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Omega
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There are many arguments for and against "The War", and arguing every single point into the ground doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, so I only have one question. Is the United States of America safer now than it was before September 11th? My answer is no. Why you ask? Because killing a large number of people in the Middle-East has nothing to do with a terrorists ability to attack. If someone has the tools, the know how, and the will to do so, there is very little that can stop them.
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Shiver
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There are many arguments for and against "The War", and arguing every single point into the ground doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, so I only have one question. Is the United States of America safer now than it was before September 11th? My answer is no. Why you ask? Because killing a large number of people in the Middle-East has nothing to do with a terrorists ability to attack. If someone has the tools, the know how, and the will to do so, there is very little that can stop them.
This is not quite correct. Our move against Afghanistan struck a very deep blow against Al Qaeda as that country's government was the only one to fully sponsor them. Stopping terrorist actions is mostly up to agencies like the CIA. In my opinion, we give Al Qaeda too much credit. If they haven't managed another attack on us in years, doesn't that show how fragile they are? You make it sound like they're an unstopable force, but our very own nutjobs and criminals are in a much greater position to pull something off.
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Shiver
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Maybe I didn't spell it out right, but I was arguing that we are safer than we were before 9/11 for two reasons: First, people are aware of the threat of terrorism now and governments keep an eye out for it. Second, Afghanistan got fixed. I was in no way, shape, or form implying that the Iraq war has done us any good.
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