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Author Topic: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread  (Read 62748 times)
Terminator
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #180 on: September 08, 2004, 12:06:28 pm »

Quote
Look at that number.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Stuff like Enron and Microsoft is really peanuts compared to this.

I'd think the real power is in the hands of some super-rich organizations, who've lent some major sums of money to the gov't, and those aren't Enron or Microsoft, but more likely the banks and trust funds.

That's to some extent the situation in the Netherlands at least -  our gov't also ows major sums of money. The funny thing is (well I think it's funny) is, that at some point, the debt grew so big, that it could only be paid off (and paying all the other bills like schools and hospitals) by borrowing more money, from the same organizations.  You never hear of this though, so I'm sort of guessing here.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is, I don't think there's much fascism involved, just a very delicate balance of financial (inter)dependencies, which they don't want to break for fear of economical meltdown. And I suppose it doesn't matter that much who's elected and who's not, cause they all need to deal with the same economic reality, and there aren't major different ways of dealing with it.


The national debt is what the U. S. government owes all who "helped" their government and bought bonds in order to balance the budget, which worked short-term(I would assume this started after the great depression, probably one of FDR's policies), now how you get facism from this is beyond me, it's closer to socialism(like almost all of FDR's polices). Although you did hit one on the mark the national debt is always rising why? These bonds mature and are being paid of by the next generation of people buy more bonds(yet another vicious cycle). I know it's rising since I've seen the giant billboard in Manhattan(The "Big City" section of New York City to outsiders.)

Back to the topic at hand. All Kerry complains about is Bushh is leading us to war, anyonw with common sense will realize that if you let the terrorists slide they WILL do it again, if you don't retaliate with force, which is the only language relifous fanatics understand, you shall remain the victim. If Bush is so wrong I'd like to know what would do better, since he hasn't said a word of what his plans are. From what I've read of "Unfit for Command" Kerry is the reason he only did 90 day in nam' he cited a 3 Purple Heart rule which required him at his own request to be put on inactive status, and what did he do? he ran for Congress and founded the label of Vietnam Veterans as "Baby Killers." In case you don't know a standard tour of duty is a year so if even one of his purple hearts are a fraud he owes the United States Navy 9 months of active duty. Another interesting fact is that only one of his Swift boat colleges supports him, the rest are on the "Swift Boat Veterans For Truth". It is known that his "First" purple heart was "awarded" for a wound which was a result of his own stupidity, a fragment of a grenade which he fired from a grenade launcher, and from the description I read, it was the size of a Frosted Flake, Required not incision, removed with forceps, did NOT break the skin and was covered with a BAND-AID. If you think it's bad that "Bush lied" why was Clinton re-elected? He lied and was caught I didn't see a media frenzy until the trial. Just some food for thought. Have fun trying to swallow it.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 12:23:04 pm by Terminator » Logged

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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #181 on: September 08, 2004, 08:00:06 pm »

Let me see if I have this right. You're saying that because Kerry
took advantage of a loophole in the military system to get out of
combat early, he shouldn't be allowed to serve/lead his country
over 30 years later?
May I point out that if he'd raped and murdered someone at that time
that he'd be out of prision by now? I think maybe we should focus
more on the here and now rather than some minor event that
happened before we were born.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #182 on: September 09, 2004, 12:18:09 am »

I'd like to point out (not that it will do any good) that Kerry always supported the war in Afghanistan, the war that actually affected Al-Qaeda in a negative fashion. That was striking back at the terrorists.

And no one mentions it anymore because it was so non-controversial. Of COURSE we needed to strike back; support for it was very strong from Kerry as well as Bush.

However, Iraq not having contributed to 9/11, as it was fairly apparent from the beginning and now quite thoroughly proven, was NOT a valid retaliatory target in this effort.

The lies made which made Iraq seem like a valid target are what Kerry has been complaining about.

Also, lying about an extramarital affair is of different character than lying so that you can start a war. You see, the former does not have the result of depriving thousands of people of their lives. If you can't tell that difference, I am intrigued and disturbed.

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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #183 on: September 09, 2004, 01:48:54 am »

Quote
Let me see if I have this right. You're saying that because Kerry
took advantage of a loophole in the military system to get out of
combat early, he shouldn't be allowed to serve/lead his country
over 30 years later?
May I point out that if he'd raped and murdered someone at that time
that he'd be out of prision by now? I think maybe we should focus
more on the here and now rather than some minor event that
happened before we were born.


No, what I meant was if ANY of his purple hearts are frauds he owes the US Navy 8 months(really 9) of active service since a tour of duty is a year and got out under a three purple heart mandate. This applies since the US NAVY is now investigating his awards due a picture of him with a silver star, it has a "V" on it, which is redundant since the silver star is allready awarded for valor. It really doen't matter how old he is you cheat the US government and are caught they'll get you in the end. Zeep-Eeep I like you characterwise anyway, but seem to be quite naive, man is inherendly greedy and will try to get all he can, with methods that or both similed and frowned upon and will continue to do it as long as it goes unnoticed or unreported. John Kerry has some balls complaining about Dick Chaney being "corporate america" it's like the pot calling the kettle black so to speak when his is Mrs. Hienz(as in the ketchup company). If he raped someone his "rabbi"(rabbi-(slang)n. someone who protects you or your image both criminally and morally) would hide it and if it was brought into the light he would never have run in the first place. If the facts fly at you in the face you can either ignore it or take it at face value.
Quote
However, Iraq not having contributed to 9/11, as it was fairly apparent from the beginning and now quite thoroughly proven, was NOT a valid retaliatory target in this effort.

Also, lying about an extramarital affair is of different character than lying so that you can start a war. You see, the former does not have the result of depriving thousands of people of their lives. If you can't tell that difference, I am intrigued and disturbed.

Cognitive Dissonance: a mental process by which we protect our self-image by generating plausible-seeming justifications for the bad choices we have made.


PROVE to me that "Bush Lied" in order to prove this you must not only prove to me that the weapons were not there and that he knew before hand. Answer me this Death999 if the government had photos and documents of Kerry at pro-communist rallies why wasn't he blacklisted(read my McCarthyist section on a previous post) like everyone else?

What do you Suggest we do? Sit back build up the economy and wait for another attack? If they are left unchecked their strength will only grow. Iraq was a logical choice since that is there chief source of funds. If you can't defeat an army drain it's funds. Remember that money makes the world go round' has no bearing on terrorists, but they need it to get supplies from elsewhere.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 02:12:24 am by Terminator » Logged

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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #184 on: September 09, 2004, 02:54:36 am »

PROVE to me that the sun rose yesterday.  And I don't want to see a picture, or read some dubious "logical" reasoning, I want it proven.

See the problem?  Unreasonable people can have unreasonable doubts, and I suspect that nothing short of a notarized letter from G.W. Bush himself stating that thee whole thing was a complete fiction would change your mind.  Since we'll never get one of those, it's a moot point.

As for the blacklisting communists, I'd suggest that you've thinking of a different decade.  McCarthyism was dead and buried by the 1960s.

But I'm rather amazed at the tone and passion with which you write about a bunch of irrelevant crap from 30 years ago, especially considering that "your guy" couldn't even be bothered to show up for the war in the first place, much less national guard duty.  John Kerry does have actual "electability" problems, but you've yet to mention a single one.  It's exactly like people whose only criticisms of G.W. Bush are that he's "stupid" or "looks like a monkey"; they accomplish nothing but make the group they're representing look like a bunch of petulant children.  Your parroting of Fox News' talking points is tiresome, please move on to an actual, relevant issue at your leisure.

As for "what should we do", we should be fighting terrorism.  We were already doing that in Afghanistan, and making quite a go of it, against a group that was openly associated with, and had non-dubious ties to al-Qaeda, before some jackass decided that we had to start beating the war drum in Iraq.  We were already "taking the fight to the terrorists", and already had a country that was a battleground, and decided to open up a second front in a country that had nothing to do whatsoever with the 9/11 attacks.  I would add that it was done over the express objections of the international community, but technically, we never bothered to ask, which I think is worse.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #185 on: September 09, 2004, 05:09:22 am »

From the rather detatched view that I usually hold from politics, I believe that "W" didn't lie, but he didn't tell the complete truth either.  He really believed that he'd find the weapons, so that he could use that as an excuse to invade (yes, I said excuse).  His administration's intent is not _Oil_ though, it's still war-strategy.  Check out a map of Iran, and see how many friendly countries we have on their borders now.  Any wonder why they're now talking about increasing their nuclear potential?
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #186 on: September 09, 2004, 07:35:19 am »

Yeah, I'm with you C20; Bush may not have lied explicitly, at least not in any comments to my recollection.  The administration does, however, have a way of suggesting falsehoods without stating them outright.  I do remember leading up to the war polls that indicated a majority of Americans believed Saddam and Al'Queda were working together.  A notion like that doesn't just come about in the majority of the populace on its own.  Bush may not have stated "Saddam Hussein is working closely with Al'Queda", but you mention "Saddam", "Terrorists", and "Al'Queda" enough times in close proximity and viewers will connect the dots in their own minds.  I believe the Bush administration is just as liable for this sort of crap as they would be if they were lying blatantly.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #187 on: September 09, 2004, 11:40:09 pm »

Quote
PROVE to me that "Bush Lied" in order to prove this you must not only prove to me that the weapons were not there and that he knew before hand.


Ahem.
I was simply pointing out that the charges are much more serious. You seemed to be stating that it's on the same level as stuff which 'we' considered 'ok'. I was saying it is not.

Quote
Answer me this Death999 if the government had photos and documents of Kerry at pro-communist rallies why wasn't he blacklisted(read my McCarthyist section on a previous post) like everyone else?


I fail to see the relevance of this to anything I said or any previous comment.

Quote
What do you Suggest we do? Sit back build up the economy and wait for another attack?


Why do you think I or Kerry would suggest such a lunatic course of action?

As I have abundantly made clear in consistent fashion throught my posting here, I would like to fight Al-Qaeda, not random people who are Al-Qaeda's bitter enemies (e.g. Saddam's Iraq).

As for Kerry, he has abundantly made it clear that he opposes the Iraq war as a poor STRATEGIC decision, not just as a money drain (though it is that too). It is poor strategy because it ties up our military in very awkward circumstances rather than letting them do important stuff like stabilize Afghanistan, rooting Al-Qaeda out of the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, and finally destroying the Taliban (which still controls the majority of the country).
These are things that were on the top of our to-do list a year and a half ago and they have not been done in large part because of the war in Iraq.

Quote
If they are left unchecked their strength will only grow. Iraq was a logical choice since that is there chief source of funds.


Where did you get that idea?

Whatever happened to Saudi Arabia in there? There were zero Iraqi hijackers and a whole bunch of Saudis. Osama Bin Laden is Saudi. Just a few 'coincidences' to consider.

In the other direction, Al-Qaeda had a public standing reward for the assassination of Saddam Hussein (and may still), because he was a secular dictator instead of an Ayatollah. This extreme friction does not bespeak a close working relationship.

Hussein did send money to the families of terrorists, yes. But they were anti-Israel terrorists, not Al-Qaeda.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 11:45:02 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #188 on: September 10, 2004, 12:12:24 am »

Well, it's my first post here, and probably last. I hate politics with a seething passion, so I'm gonna pick stuff out of what people have said, make a comment, then tell what I think is really going on at the end. I'll try to go in chronological order of posts, but bear with me. Some things might really piss me off, and I might really piss someone off. If I do, say so.

Shiver:
Quote
Also, feel free to try your hand at convincing me that George W. Bush isn't the most hideous leader ever.

Atilla. Coligula. Ivan. Stalin. Hitler. Castro. Hussein. Kadafi.

Luki:
Quote
How'd you feel if someone tried to take the fight to you, to stop you from bombing the crap out of their soil?. Oh wait, they already did. Felt good, did it?

Ouch, man. I like you, but that was low. We (Americans) took the fight to their soil only after they blew the hell out of a good chunk of the world economy. If you want to talk about irony, we gave Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and other groups of the time weapons to fight the Soviets back in the 80's.

Chainy:
Quote
Freedom of speech implies the right to piss some people off, doesnt it?

Bwahahaaa, yes. Thank God I can, otherwise this'd be a boring world.

Bio:
Quote
I can only blame the media. when i went to the european-union every media outlet I saw had a sickening anti-american slant to it.

This is because J.W.B is notorious for shoving his big Texas boot in his mouth about every other sentence he states. As patriotic as he may be, no one likes someone with the IQ of a blender leading them.

Bio, On the topic of civilian jobs for Americans in Iraq...
Quote
this is a bad thing? it creates jobs, and saves money by having contractors do it at a set price. otherwise you would have to train the military personel in in nearly everthing. the military are for killing and civilians for building.

This is why, way back when we had intelligent Commanders in Chief, they invented groups like the Navy Seabees and the Army Corps of Engineers. So civvies wouldn't have to go into hot spots and get their balls blown off. These divisions of the military are already trained. Your statement on the differences in purpose between the military and civilians is very, VERY insular.

C20:
Quote
Whether we (U.S.) are Star Trek TNG's Borg in respects of our culture is open to debate...

No question, we are Borg when it comes to culture, but we make it look desirable. I'll get into that later.

Quote
...but they could have used better means to combat the culture than intentionally blowing civilians up.  Hollywood would have made a better target than the Trade Towers.

Not really. Think of what they did. They not only destroyed countless lives, not only in those that died but those that survived and the families of those dead, but they also shattered economic trade worldwide. The stock market STOPPED for a week! They got what they wanted, and THEN some.

Luki:
Quote
Within 10 years, it may well be a stable and functioning democracy, which definetly is a good thing.

Taking an antiethnocentrist point of view, perhaps some countries don't function well under democracy. Shoot this if you want, but it's what I think.

Bio:
Quote
America is NOT a democracy it is a republic.

WRONG. America is an oligarchy that, on the surface, looks like a democracy to placate the masses into thinking that their choices really matter at all. I am an American, so don't torch me for making this comment, either. I see the corruption daily, the throngs of politically fanatical people willing to vote for a party for just one reason, most never taking a look at the bigger picture. You want the leaders of the U.S.? C.E.O.'s rule this country. Exxon. Haliburton. Countless others I can't think. The power behind the throne is their claim to infame. They really don't care who you vote for, because it's already determined who will lead. A good face, a puppet with charisma is what they want. That's what a "president" is.

0XD, in response to Bio's comment about soldiers...
Quote
If I want to know what a soldier is going through, and how it affects their worldview, I'll ask one. I suggest that you do the same; I have a sneaking suspicion that you have not served in the military.  At any rate, "they're getting shot at" is not an effective rationale for torturing people.

I hear that. A soldier knows that getting shot at and the potential of being brought home in a dozen body-bags is a risk they take when they're out doing the exact same thing to their enemies.

Bio:
Quote
the PATRIOT Act just makes it so law inforcment can do there jobs better. It does not require more spending.

...ngh. I can't believe any American with a shred of decency  is FOR the patriot act in the first place!!! It's a shameless way to invade the privacy of the average American. Don't give me some crap about, "Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, why should you worry?" either. THAT is what'll lead us to becoming a blatant despotism. And yes, it DOES require more spending. More jobs are created, sure but you've gotta get these people equipment for all the snooping they're doing, not to mention wages. The setup of CARNIVORE was probably quite expensive, and getting a whole entire new Department in the government to run this whole chickensh*t outfit is going to cost too.

Luki:
Quote
It's the soldiers that are the problem.

Actually, it's their C.O.'s that are the problem. Arrogant little rich boys that got some brass pinned on their shoulders and think they can rule the goddamn world because of it. Originally, Al-Sadr was FOR the U.S. because it got rid of Saddam, who just happened to execute Sadr's father and uncle, who were also both priests. We even gave him a newspaper from with which to write about to the people of Iraq. Unfortunately, we overstayed our visit and he started writing some bad stuff about us. What'd the CO's do? Agreed to close the newspaper plant permanently. No wonder he hates us now. When we, America, bringers of peace, personal liberty and free speech decide that, because someone using their newfound powers writes bad stuff on us, we close them down. Kinda like kicking yourself in the ass.

Bio, retorting to Luki's comment about him being a radical...
Quote
I never said I would kill you for speaking your insensitive words.

No, but you said the people of NY would. Same thing, right?

Bio, about Kim Jong-Il:
Quote
Kim Jong Il :: North Korea

=>One reason why this man was not attacked is because he has china breathing  down his neck to behave, and that works. There was no equivalent for Hussein.
=>He has not supported terrorists.
=>He has not funded terrorists.
=>No know assassination attempts.


+>China is currently going through a massive change in their economy. They're still a big threat, but they're still Communist. So is Kim. They're on the same side.
+>He's supporting himself... Roll Eyes
+>See above.
+>True. He's not being an entire idiot about it like Hussein was. He's got uranium enrichment programs up and running right now. That's nice. Wait till the processing and development programs are completed. Then another nation with an unstable leader has nuclear strike capabilities. Yay.
I think once he gets all his gear together, he's going to do some massively stupid thing, like get the world to bomb the hell out of him by launching nukes at all sorts of diferent targets. Going out in a blaze of glory, y'know? KYAIEEE!!!

Fsi:
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Unfortunately there never can be a leader everybody likes. We should all be Borgs.

I agree. I've prepared a speech for our new preside--er--hive leader, regarding foreign policy. Locutus for prez!
We are the Borg of Unimatrix Fifty-Four. Your people commonly refer to us as the U54. Lower your defenses, and prepare be assimilated. Your people will adapt to service ours. We have dispatched combat alcove-units 4-RMY, M4R-1N35 and 41R-F0RC3, with alcove-unit N-4VY waiting to further assist. These alcove-units will begin the assimilation of your people and your government processes in to our own. Alcove-units 4-RMY and M4R-1N35 have already begun this process with the construction of a new Hive Defense Matrix, designation 1R-4Q1 N4T-10N4L G-U4RD. The new drones trained within the new Hive will be conditioned to have positive-U54 sentiment and see to it that no resistance will be met, much less tolerated.  We have also dispatched the noncombat alcove-unit designated as H4L-1BURT0N, with units UN-1C4L and C4RL-YL3 awaiting entry orders. Unit H4L-1BURT0N has begun the process of assimilating your natural resourses into our own. Your culture distinctiveness and unique attributes will be replaced with program D3-M0CR4CY which will bring your people into the Collective compeltely.
Resistance has, and always will be...futile.


gonsen, on Saddam...
Quote
he also had a standing offer of asylum to asama bin ladin. so bin ladin was part of his own "little" cult?

As far as I know, UBL wanted Saddam dead because he wasn't Islamic, but a perversion of the faith. (Not saying extremists AREN'T, mind you...)

Luki:
Quote
Feel free to produce ANY evidence that Iraq "disposed" of their weapons in their last six months, and if you manage to do so (I know Bio didn't), feel free to explain why it was necessary to invade at all, if they actually disposed of the weapons that were the reason for invading.

WMD's weren't our reason. They were our cover. We wanted to "oust the evil dictator and gain control of his vast wealth in oil". Bush lied about it, but the supposed economic gain from all our new oil wells made up for it, I guess...Huh

Term:
Quote
Why does everybody assume that Fox News is a Right-wing conservative station...

One name: Rupert Murdoch.

Quote
"The threat of Terrorism is overrated"
-John F.(Fake middle-name) Kerry

He's saying that to placate the masses.
Also: scary note. Kerry's middle name is Fitzgerald. Johnathan Fitzgerald Kerry. Hmm...JFK, those initials ring a bell...

Zeep:
Quote
Personally, I wouldn't mind if Americans put down their voting slips and picked up arms against the establishment. Think the '60s hippie movement, but with guns (on both sides).

Yeah, and then the uprising gets it's ass blown to the moon by the combined might of the Army Nat'l Guard, Army Reserves AND whatever units of the Marines, Army, and Air Force are still within the U.S. Then, as preventative measure, the current establishment decides to delete the 2nd Amendment so nothing like that can ever happen again AND increase police enforcement in areas that might harbor "home-grown terrorists"...not smart. I hope you were joking, anyway.

Geo:
Quote
I'd think the real power is in the hands of some super-rich organizations, who've lent some major sums of money to the gov't, and those aren't Enron or Microsoft, but more likely the banks and trust funds.

Yep. Add to the list those companies I mentioned before and you've got what really runs the U.S.

C20:
Quote
From the rather detatched view that I usually hold from politics, I believe that "W" didn't lie, but he didn't tell the complete truth either.

Yeah, he took what was given to him and used his foot-in-mouth magic to make it sound even worse.  Grin

I refuse to vote this year. Many people say to me, "Then you have no right to complain." Sure I do, it's a free damn country. I hate BOTH of them, so I don't complain about just one.
Bush= Oil rich, idiot who can't speek klearlie.
Kerry= Married money + Forbes family background, enigma to 99% of the population.

There. I'm done. Unless someone wants to target anything I had to say directly, I'm not gonna post in here again.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #189 on: September 10, 2004, 08:08:08 am »

I wonder why they call him flipper http://media1.stream2you.com/rnc/072304v2.wmv. or rtsp://real.stream2you.com/RNC/RNC07200.rm.
It's a right-wing version of FAHRENHEIT 9-11 without a bogus commentary, just your "War-Hero" putting his foot in his mouth.

Anyway Bush will win the election, this is a given, how the democrats will react to this is a variable, I think that either one of the NY senators will call for Bush's impeachment. Bush will win simply because he has a backbone and a record with aligns with what he says(Actions speak louder than words). Kerry doesn't seem to know what he wants, and Ralph Nader is a thrid-party candidate. This is my final post on this topic so you all can do without my rants.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #190 on: September 10, 2004, 09:29:50 am »

I agree that Bush will likely win the election, though for different reasons.

I read something funny today. About 55% of Americans say
they'll vote for Bush. However, in 35 countries around the world,
30 of them favored Kerry. This makes me wonder about two things:

1. How much different Americans see the world than other people.
2. What impact Bush's upcoming win will have on international
issues.


Anyway, back to why I think Bush will win. Here in Canada, we elected a prime minister for two full terms (he won a majority government both times)
yet noone seemed to like his party, his politics or him personally. However, Canadians could relate to him as a man. We (I use "we" loosely) could
connect to him in the way we thought; our sense of country and of humour.
I think Americans connect more with Bush than with Kerry.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #191 on: September 10, 2004, 09:53:58 pm »

I can see why Americans can 'connect' to Bush. There is no denying that Bush has intelligence below average and the stereotype of 'normal' U.S. cidizen is just that. Stereotypes more than often are based on the truth, more or less.

From this post you can clearly see that I just don't like Bush and I pretty much hate the whole country too, but let's not make that an issue.
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #192 on: September 11, 2004, 01:59:35 am »

I think you just did....

Actually, I meant that Bush has (other) qualities that I think
americans connect to. His apparent strength, patriotism and
big brotherness certainly play in his favor. People like to see
someone strong and charismatic in charge. Not someone who
wants to group-hug the nation....As appealing as that may be.
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Vassago_Umara
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #193 on: September 11, 2004, 02:37:24 am »

Bush is a religious nut, who can barely finish a sentence.  I can see why some people in the south and mid-west like that ignorance, but I find it disturbing.  Policies should  be made on evidence scientific and physical, not FAITH!
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: The John Kerry/George W. Bush thread
« Reply #194 on: September 11, 2004, 10:34:08 am »

That's one of the beauties of democracy. You don't have to
have a reason for voting for the person you do. You can vote
for them based on their race, gender, a coin toss, as a favor
or because the voices in your head told you to.
During the Canadian election this year I asked several people
who they'd vote for and why. No two people gave me the same
reason. I find that both reasuring (in regards to our personal freedoms)
and distrubing (because we seem to have no logic in our system).

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