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Author Topic: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...  (Read 31028 times)
Ur-Quan_Librarian
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Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« on: July 14, 2004, 02:17:39 am »

A couple of things I've been wondering about...

1)  According to the SC2 manual, there is only one Ur-Quan per Dreadnought, because of the Ur-Quan's fierce territoriality.  The rest of the crew is made up of slaves.  This works for the Kzer-Za, but how do the Kohr-Ah crew their ships?  

2)  Living beings tend to set off the Ur-Quan - of all the races they encountered, the Taalo were the only ones they could stand.  One wonders if other, non-organic life also fails to trigger the killing instinct.  Could they relax in the presence of Chenjesu or Mmrnmhrm, or for that matter, Chmmr, Clairconctlar or Daktaklakpak?  How about non-sentient beings, or unintelligent robots?  Clearly they can tolerate the presence of their own Talking Pets.  

3)  The Kzer-Za have held onto the Sa-Matra for at least 15,000 years.  One wonders why they haven't built more Sa-Matras.  Given 15,000 years, one would imagine they'd be able to figure out how it works, and build the necessary infrastructure to reproduce it, but hey, what do I know about Precursor tech?  
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2004, 02:40:20 am »

I bet there's only one Kohr-Ah on each Marauder too. The Kohr-Ah in question would be both captain and voodoo-priest / necromancer and the crew would consist of only zombies! Ooohwwww... wouldn't that be scary?  Cool
I mean the Kohr-Ah have an enormous stockpile of dead bodies... might as well put them to use...  Wink
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Sander Scamper
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2004, 02:56:46 am »

According to...Me

1)As to the Kohr Ar crew, I, and I'm pretty sure a few others here at the UQM boards, think that since the Kzer Za were the 'scientists', there would be less of them.
How many scientists/researchers/(intellectual jobs) are there, compared to soldier/ menial labour?
Since the Dynarri modified the Ur-Quan on a genetic level, I would assume they only needed a few Kzer Za, and a few thousand Kohr Ah, for every say, 1050 Capita.
Due to the inherent purpose of the Kohr-Ar, it seems to me that their 'survival' instincts were genetically curbed by the Dynarri, in order to work better as a group. (Think how much faster 100 labourers can do a job than 1 labourer, likewise the effectiveness of a squad, rather than a lone soldier.)
So, to me, I would conclude that there are LESS Kzer-Za (dramatically so), due to their modifications (less breeding/longer generations). So, they might supplement their crew with thralls.
The Kohr-Ah, with their better Co-operative skills, pilot their own ships.

2) From what I know, the filth represent the biological species, but Threats require greater attention.
The Chenjesu and the Mmrnmhrm allied with the Bio species, because they're the good guys (Duh!). They are now Threats.
Also, something else occured to me.
Their territorial urge to kill may not even be a factor, otherwise the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za, would kill their own crew? Perhaps the Dynarri only stunted their population growth, made them smarter, and even then took away the urge (most of it).
This makes more sense, to me, anyway, in almost all things, co-operation results in better success, faster.

3) I think that the Sa-Matra itself is not veiwed as a weapon, per se, It's more than that.
The Sa-Matra represents the ultimate trophy of the Doctrinal Conflict, if there were 2, 5, or 50 of them, it wouldn't be a very good ultimate trophy.
I also think that the Sa-Matra itself is sacred, IE, Dont mess with it. Also, I think that ONE Sa-Matra is enough, they move together in a huge nomadic camp, so there is only one group of them at a time, and the single Sa-Matra is quite enough. Dont forget that Kzer-Za ships ARE named 'Planetary Seige Units'.
Or maybe they simply didn't take the effort, didn't feel like it, didn't have the Resources, or didn't know how.
Just my 2 cents =p
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2004, 03:19:11 am »

Hmmmm come to think of it...
I the Kzer-Za crew are slaves, then that means that their fighter pilots are slaves. Why wouldn't at least some of those fighter pilots join the enemy and try to win their freedom as soon as they're out of range of the mothership?
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2004, 03:45:39 am »

Quote
Hmmmm come to think of it...
I the Kzer-Za crew are slaves, then that means that their fighter pilots are slaves. Why wouldn't at least some of those fighter pilots join the enemy and try to win their freedom as soon as they're out of range of the mothership?


Well, the Ur-Quan aren't exactly merciful lords. I think they would happily use collective punishment. And members of most races would think twice about defecting if it meant the death of, say, 100 of their countrymen or their entire family for three generations.
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2004, 05:30:28 pm »

Ala Babylon 5 (sorta off topic)
"For every Centauri that is killed by Narn hands, 500 Narns, including the perpetrators family, will die."

I sure as hell wouldn't disobey that, were I Narn...
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2004, 07:33:32 pm »

It's more likely that the Kzer-Za have a kind of... veneer? about them.

They can tolerate lesser races on the same vessel much more easily because they dont consider them to be equals. Other Kzer-Za would, however, become territorially insane.

This is not to say one could go up and give a Kzer-Za a hug. Rather that the range of tolerance somewhat lower. So, as long as the slaves dont get TOO close to the Kzer-Za, they will probably live.

Although I'm inclined to agree with your Kohr-Ah theory I'd rather subscribe to my own theory that they would use sophisticated robots cannibalised from "filth" technology to fill in the holes in their labour and free up more Kohr-Ah for other more important roles, IE, Orbital bombardment and trophy collection Smiley

It's also been explained somewheres that the Taalo physiology was substantially different from the Chenjesu/Chmmr/Mmmrnmhrrm.

The Kzer-Za probably counted the Mmmrnmhrrm as a competitor as they were sentient. Sentient races that are able to think for themselves are able to threaten the freedom of the Kzer-Za and are therefore to brought into line with the path of now and forever, ditto for the Chenjesu.

The Taalo were also described as being "Rock like". If one was inherently a rock and appeared to be nothing but a rock and exhibiting all the behaviours consistent with a rock (sans the ability to talk, think and pilot starships) then the territorial instinct may not be set off.

However, the Chenjesu dont look like rocks. They are crystalline, and they exhibit life in the form of visible electrical impulses. Hence, because they do not resemble anything of which the Kzer-Za recognise and they exhibit life, they are competitors and therefore threats. Therefore, rip out it's life.

Finally, the Sa-Matra and reverse engineering. The Sa-Matra may represent the pinnacle of Precursor technology. It's doubtful the Kzer-Za would wish to destroy something as precious and valuable as the Sa-Matra by even the slightest slip up.

Also, since it is quite literally a "Great Trophy" I dont think that that Kohr-Ah would be too pleased if they found that the prize had be messed about with.

Or, perhaps the Ur-Quan consider themselves to be above that kind of thing. The precursors were an ancient race with advanced technology that dissapeared eons ago. Clearly they were inferior to the might and strength of the Kzer-Za. We will rule the galaxy and crush all opposition with our collective tentacles. The Might of the Ur-Quan alone is enough to bring the galaxy in line with the path of now and forever.

Or it could be 3 AM and I havent had enough sleep, whatever works I guess =\
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2004, 09:36:26 pm »

Ur-quan dont have tentacles, theyre limbs.
They resemble Centipedes, not octupi.

I think that the Taalo resembled rock, not actually MADE of rock.
That isn't to say they're totally biological, but in my book, if it looks like a rock and acts like a rock, it is a rock.

We are sure that the ur-quan were sane when the Taalo met them, and they didnt start collecting rock pets, right?
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2004, 10:26:22 pm »

The Ur-Quan mastered their territorial desire to slaughter anything that comes near them long ago - it's how they got to the point where they could build spaceships and such when the Milieu found them.  They still feel it, and it probably contributed at least as much as the racial trauma of their Dnyarri enslavement to the sociopathic nature of their competing Doctrines, but it no longer controls them.  Ur-Quan, of any variety, can tolerate others near them, they just don't like it.  Subjugating those others probably helps ameliorate the urge, turning them into extensions of the Ur-Quan's will, in a way.

The Kohr-Ah crew their ships themselves.  They can get away with it because there are no enslaved species left behind them that they have to oversee.  The Kzer-Za, by contrast, have to leave overseers behind them to monitor how all their battle thralls are behaving and make them toe the line.  Remember, both factions have moved through half the galaxy, which took, what, 10,000 years?  Considering how little time it takes to cross from Pkunk space to Utwig space, that means the Ur-Quan are occupying hundreds, if not thousands, of areas as large as the hyperspace map in SC2, and it must take at least dozens, if not scores or hundreds, of dreadnoughts to properly control presumably heavily armed battle thralls in even one of those sectors.

That's probably the real reason the Kohr-Ah were winning - they could concentrate their entire race in one place, focusing all their strength on defeating the Kzer-Za.  By contrast, not only were the Kzer-Za spread out, but they were deliberately depriving themselves of the strength they had garnered from the application of their Doctrine - they had the service of many warlike races as battle thralls, and refrained from using that service in the war.  The real miracle is that the war lasted even as long as it did, since it was grossly slanted to favor the Kohr-Ah genocidal nomad lifestyle more than the Ur-Quan slave empire lifestyle.
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2004, 09:58:54 pm »

Oh yeah, we see how many Ur-Quan administrators they left at Sol, with the Spathi, Thraddash, Umgah, Yehat, and Ilwrath.

it can be derived by the following expression, for any value of X except zero: (X*X+X)/X - X - 1
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2004, 12:23:48 am »

Wouldnt the Ur-quan Kzer Za also have infinite* manpower to build ships (thralls?) slaves to crew the ships, and mineral resources?
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2004, 07:08:22 am »

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Oh yeah, we see how many Ur-Quan administrators they left at Sol, with the Spathi, Thraddash, Umgah, Yehat, and Ilwrath.

it can be derived by the following expression, for any value of X except zero: (X*X+X)/X - X - 1


This is not a valid comparison - the Ur-Quan only abandoned their thralls to pursue their doctrinal war.  Prior to this occurrence, evidence suggests that they remained in contact with their fallow races and battle thralls - reference the regular (until 8 years prior to your arrival at Earth Starbase) resupply ships sent to maintain said Starbase.  Refer, also, to repeated mention that the Ur-Quan, while not particularly mentally stable, are not stupid, and the self evident fact that it is monumentally stupid to imagine that a race left unsupervised with the ability to manufacture starships (ie, any race of battle thralls) will remain subjugated for long.

There is no evidence that the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za do *NOT* leave overseers drawn from their own numbers behind to supervise old conquests.  There is evidence that the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za are not stupid enough to fail to do this.  Thus, the logical conclusion, applicable in absence of direct designer declaration that it is false, is that the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za have a large slave empire still loyal to them covering about half the galaxy, complete with a substantial reserve of their own ships and people.  The Kohr-Ah might be beaten by the League - the Kzer-Za are merely suffering a momentary setback.  Only the established agreement that the battle for the Sa-Matra would determine the outcome would have allowed the Kohr-Ah to defeat their Kzer-Za cousins in any reasonable amount of time.

Note that I am arguing from the assumption that SC3 was merely a hallucination during a psychotic episode brought on by head trauma suffered when the shockwave from the Sa-Matra's explosion struck your character's escape pod.  It's the only explanation that makes sense.
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2004, 12:08:25 pm »

I think the fact that makes the Doctrinal War even (given that the Kohr-Ah don't need to garrison subjugated worlds) is that the Kzer-Za get the benifit of Battle Thralls.

First, the Kzer-Za can use them as canon fodder against the more resistent sentience in the galaxy; the Kohr-Ah have to do it all themselves. The Kzer-Za tend to make a dramatic show of force at the end of these wars, to make sure that the subjugated race knows just who it is that is in charge Wink

Secondly, the Kzer-Za can force their Thralls to do more than fight; mining ore, processing minerals, etc. While the Kzer-Za like to keep their technological edge (so they manufacture Dreadnaughts themselves), the entire bottom rung of their economy can be supported by Thralls. This gives them the ability to repair their losses much faster than the Kohr-Ah, outside the time of the actual Doctrinal War, of course.

Lastly, the Kzer-Za don't need as huge a populartion as the Kohr-Ah. They can use their Thralls to run their ships, and other basic infrastructure tasks. Granted, they have to deal with the needs of numerous different races, but they have the resources to spare.

I think the Shofixti SuperNova was the deciding factor in the war. Even for the Kzer-Za's economy, losing a full thrid (as I recall) of their forces is a devastating blow that is not easily recovered from.
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2004, 07:44:35 pm »

Yes, i too consider the Shofixti Sun bomb to be the reason the Kzer Za lost the war.

So the Shofixti endangered the entire space map region?! Must Die! =p
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Re: Thoughts about the Ur-Quan...
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2004, 09:05:58 pm »

They should have left the challenge of the shofixti for the Kohr-Ah to take on... then we wouldn't be in this situation.
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