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Author Topic: Evil in SC2  (Read 32271 times)
jabbrwock
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2004, 11:44:00 pm »

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You also have to realize that the illwrath could be following orders - or think they are.

They could think that the their gods are all powerful and would kill them if they disobeyed. Thus they obviously obey them and think that killing others is better than being killed yourself.

So in that way - you could say that the illwrath are not evil - they are just following evil gods.  


In the absence of actual divine intervention, a race must take responsibility for its own religiously inspired actions.  Their gods are evil, and they choose to continue to worship them.  More, they demand that the worship be as gruesome as possible - witness the overthrow of their priestly caste because, in part, of the "...lack of quality death in ceremony."

As for the Mycon, if you could get in a conversation with a Mycon and ask it, "If you were not part of Juffo-Wup, would you want to become part of Juffo-Wup?" the answer would almost certainly be "Yes."  So I'd say the Mycons are actually misguided, rather than evil.  They really are following the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  For further evidence, remember the offer they make when you tell them about Organon.
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FalconMWC
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2004, 12:26:56 am »

Well.....

First, the illwrath might think I had better do this or I will die. But as each illwrath dies and another is born - it becomes more and more like their nature where they enjoy it. Then the gods don't have to intervene so much....

Or they are just pretending to enjoy for their gods.....   Tongue
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jabbrwock
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2004, 08:31:09 am »

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Well.....

First, the illwrath might think I had better do this or I will die. But as each illwrath dies and another is born - it becomes more and more like their nature where they enjoy it. Then the gods don't have to intervene so much....

Or they are just pretending to enjoy for their gods.....   Tongue


It's always bad to judge an entire race, or nation, or whatever.  What one is really judging in this case is the culture.  The Ilwrath, as defined by their DNA, or whatever equivalent they happen to have, are probably not inherently evil.  Their culture, of which their religion is part, *IS* evil.  It teaches the Ilwrath that it is OK to inflict harm on others for any reason whatever, even simple pleasure.  That is classical evil.  The strength of religious convictions as contrasted with the strength of the desire for simple fun is the reason why I don't consider the Ilwrath as evil as the Umgah or the Dnyarri.

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Sander Scamper
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2004, 03:38:58 pm »

Except, in this case simple pleasure is not the opposite of their religion....Weird =p
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2004, 09:40:52 pm »

See, I consider the "talking pets" the most evil in the game before they were made slaves.....
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Sander Scamper
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2004, 10:35:47 pm »

Something just occured to me.
What if the Spathi were the most powerful race in the game?
Would they resort to butchering all the other races to make them safer?
It kind of does scare me a little, never ever assume the weak are the good.
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2004, 05:53:15 am »

jabbrwock: Good points all. Indeed, SC3 throws the nature of the Mycon into question, since it draws a line between the Mycon's truly sentient basic nature and the Mycon as they are after they've been imprinted with Juffo-Wup commands (though this makes the Mycon much less interesting and is probably bad storytelling).

Sander Scamper: One can justify a greater or lesser degree of moral relativism based on one's worldview, but keep in mind that just because morality is a concept that cannot flow from scientific testing or facts does not make it something we should discount as "illusion". Good and evil *for us* are the benchmarks by which we build a society most conducive to our nature and way of living.

The Mycon moral system may be just fine for the Mycon. It's horrible for almost anyone who's not a Mycon. Hence it's really hard to explain how the Mycon could be the "real" good guys. The problem of finding a system of good and evil that works best for the most different cultures is a hard one, but it's a problem that does need to be tackled, both in real life and in SC2. (That's the basis behind the fundamental laws of the League of Sentient Races in SC3, and probably a similar set of laws behind the Sentient Milieu; a "first do no harm" sort of thing.)

Anyway, you contradict yourself by saying that the Mycon moral system is possibly justifiable but the Ilwrath isn't. Of course it's logically ridiculous to claim that "evil is good" and define good and evil that way, but the Ilwrath aren't quite so shallow. I think it's quite possible that the Ilwrath originally had a society that had a quite rigid moral code and then at some point in history reversed it, because it was too wearying for them. They're an exaggeration, of course, like all other SC2 races, but if you don't think strict moral codes create a tendency to rebel against them in service of older instincts, you haven't, say, ever attended Catholic school.
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2004, 06:20:23 am »

Oh yes: About the Spathi, I don't think they're actively evil as such. They certainly don't have any opportunity to be, and much of the humor comes from that. But they're definitely amoral to an extreme degree. Their extreme cowardice comes from their being basically extreme materialists -- they don't believe in any kind of transcendence, either a literal afterlife or in things that one ought to be willing to die for. As Fwiffo demonstrates, the only things they want are basically plentiful food, pleasant climates, scenic vistas and the company of attractive nubiles. And, of course, as much time to enjoy all this in as possible. So while their nature makes them fearful of confrontation to such a degree that I doubt it'd cross their minds to actively raid and conquer for their own benefit, they are quite likely to screw over other people in their quest for safety and prosperity if they don't have to look their opponents in the face to do this. They ain't nice guys.

Most obvious is their decision to flee inside their little slave shield while the rest of the New Alliance is fighting desperately for their lives. More disturbing are hints of other baggage they've had over the years, like the incident the Melnorme tell you about with their overeager expansionism -- they don't mind conquering planets if they don't have to fight to do so, and they take plenty of risks with other people's lives in the process... "much to the Algolites' sincere and short-lived regret".

Interesting point people haven't brought up yet: What about the Melnorme? They're like the benign counterpart to the Druuge, yet they use the language of capitalism to deny responsibility in a similar way to the Druuge and the Spathi. Maybe they have a point that trade is a basic social activity and you can't be responsible for what someone does with your stuff after they buy it, but stuff like the Algolites and the 2148-B probe make me wonder if their own corporate practices need a review... Though I do like to think they do take sides in these conflicts, just choosing to do so from behind the scenes and behind the cloak of commerce. (They are, presumably, selling stuff to *you* and not the Ur-Quan for a reason.)
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jabbrwock
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2004, 08:40:00 am »

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The Mycon moral system may be just fine for the Mycon. It's horrible for almost anyone who's not a Mycon. Hence it's really hard to explain how the Mycon could be the "real" good guys. The problem of finding a system of good and evil that works best for the most different cultures is a hard one, but it's a problem that does need to be tackled, both in real life and in SC2. (That's the basis behind the fundamental laws of the League of Sentient Races in SC3, and probably a similar set of laws behind the Sentient Milieu; a "first do no harm" sort of thing.)

Anyway, you contradict yourself by saying that the Mycon moral system is possibly justifiable but the Ilwrath isn't. Of course it's logically ridiculous to claim that "evil is good" and define good and evil that way, but the Ilwrath aren't quite so shallow. I think it's quite possible that the Ilwrath originally had a society that had a quite rigid moral code and then at some point in history reversed it, because it was too wearying for them. They're an exaggeration, of course, like all other SC2 races, but if you don't think strict moral codes create a tendency to rebel against them in service of older instincts, you haven't, say, ever attended Catholic school.


They Mycon would want to be treated the way they treat others.  The Ilwrath would not want to be treated the way they treat others.  The Mycon are thus not being selfish, merely blind.  The Ilwrath are being selfish.  Since my basic thesis is that selfishness is the true measure of evil, the Mycon are not evil, and the Ilwrath are.
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2004, 10:32:57 am »

Are we really sure of that? Presumably the Ilwrath do want to be on the winning end of the wars they fight, but they seem to be almost as masochistic as they are sadistic; they may like giving pain more than getting it, but they rip off their own limbs and mutilate their own bodies and stuff in worship of Dogar and Kazon.
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2004, 07:12:30 pm »

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([The Melnorme] are, presumably, selling stuff to *you* and not the Ur-Quan for a reason.)

Maybe it's becasue the Kzer-za don't collect biological data, they enslave it?
And the Kohr-Ah certainly don't have any interest in biological data.

Also, if the Melnorme tried to trade, wouldn't they be forced to follow the path of now and forever? Being either enslaved on a planet, or becoming a battle thrall would be... bad for business.
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Michael Martin
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2004, 06:04:16 am »

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Something just occured to me.
What if the Spathi were the most powerful race in the game?
Would they resort to butchering all the other races to make them safer?
It kind of does scare me a little, never ever assume the weak are the good.


They could possibly come up with reasons not to.  The best example in science fiction of the immensely powerful, yet amazingly cowardly race is the "Puppeteers" from Larry Niven's "Known Space" continuity.

Try to track down a copy of the novel "Ringworld."  It will demonstrate the lengths to which a "coward" will go to ensure their safety -- especially when they're also smart enough to recognize that the Kohr-Ah strategy isn't very safe.
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Michael Martin
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2004, 06:19:13 am »

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Since my basic thesis is that selfishness is the true measure of evil, the Mycon are not evil, and the Ilwrath are.


The Mycon are a tricky case because they're constructs of some kind - the Umgah say so, and they self-identify as "planetary transformer biots" if you let them ramble enough.

I would claim that making moral judgements about the Mycon is like making moral judgements about unit 2418-B.  (This seems to be mentioned above.)

I'm not sure I like the use of selflessness/selfishness as the sole arbiter of good and evil.  Imperialism in the British Empire, White Man's Burden vein comes out as largely selfless (and the Kzer-Za appear to think they're in this tradition, too), but you won't find many spouting this as a moral model to be followed in this day and age.  (The closest you can find removes the 'overlord' aspects of it, which makes the debate completely different.)

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meep-eep
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2004, 10:40:08 am »

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More disturbing are hints of other baggage they've had over the years, like the incident the Melnorme tell you about with their overeager expansionism -- they don't mind conquering planets if they don't have to fight to do so, and they take plenty of risks with other people's lives in the process... "much to the Algolites' sincere and short-lived regret".

What makes you think the Spathi went there for expansionistic reasons? I think it's unlikely that their empire would reach that far, and having a remote colony where they would be vulnerable to attack doesn't seem very Spathi-like to me either.

For completeness, this is the dialog in question:
Quote
The Spathi once used a similar excuse after an unfortunate incident at their base on Algol IV. They didn't like the climate there so they decided to make `just a few minor, climatic adjustments.'
Their equipment went haywire, they panicked and fled and the entire atmosphere was stripped off the planet much to the native Algolites sincere though short-lived regret.


What makes me wonder is what the Spathi did all the way over at Algol, especially as it's inhabited and right in Druuge Space (though maybe not at that time). It could be that they wanted to set up a remote listening post so they could feel safer. Why pick an inhabited planet for that? Maybe it's the Algolites themselves they want to spy on.
Still, why would the Spathi not use an unmanned listening post? The climatic adjustments they wanted to make suggests the Spathi intended to stay there.
I guess the people that ordered the mission weren't the ones who had to execute it, so fear is not really an issue.

A funny thought: the "native Algolites" may have been Druuge.
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Re: Evil in SC2
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2004, 02:08:28 pm »

Do we know the Druuge didnt come from outside the starmap, like the Melnorme?

And maybe the Spathi  were searching for (coughs) "THE ULTIMATE EVIL!" (the voice addons for Fwiffo are terrific).

And as said above, doing unto others as you would have done unto yourself is a pretty good measurement of 'good and evil'.
And i think that they prefer to rip off their own limbs. Thankyouverymuch =p
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