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Topic: Evil in SC2 (Read 32270 times)
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jabbrwock
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You also have to realize that the illwrath could be following orders - or think they are.
They could think that the their gods are all powerful and would kill them if they disobeyed. Thus they obviously obey them and think that killing others is better than being killed yourself.
So in that way - you could say that the illwrath are not evil - they are just following evil gods.
In the absence of actual divine intervention, a race must take responsibility for its own religiously inspired actions. Their gods are evil, and they choose to continue to worship them. More, they demand that the worship be as gruesome as possible - witness the overthrow of their priestly caste because, in part, of the "...lack of quality death in ceremony."
As for the Mycon, if you could get in a conversation with a Mycon and ask it, "If you were not part of Juffo-Wup, would you want to become part of Juffo-Wup?" the answer would almost certainly be "Yes." So I'd say the Mycons are actually misguided, rather than evil. They really are following the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." For further evidence, remember the offer they make when you tell them about Organon.
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FalconMWC
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Well.....
First, the illwrath might think I had better do this or I will die. But as each illwrath dies and another is born - it becomes more and more like their nature where they enjoy it. Then the gods don't have to intervene so much....
Or they are just pretending to enjoy for their gods..... 
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FalconMWC
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See, I consider the "talking pets" the most evil in the game before they were made slaves.....
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Art
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jabbrwock: Good points all. Indeed, SC3 throws the nature of the Mycon into question, since it draws a line between the Mycon's truly sentient basic nature and the Mycon as they are after they've been imprinted with Juffo-Wup commands (though this makes the Mycon much less interesting and is probably bad storytelling).
Sander Scamper: One can justify a greater or lesser degree of moral relativism based on one's worldview, but keep in mind that just because morality is a concept that cannot flow from scientific testing or facts does not make it something we should discount as "illusion". Good and evil *for us* are the benchmarks by which we build a society most conducive to our nature and way of living.
The Mycon moral system may be just fine for the Mycon. It's horrible for almost anyone who's not a Mycon. Hence it's really hard to explain how the Mycon could be the "real" good guys. The problem of finding a system of good and evil that works best for the most different cultures is a hard one, but it's a problem that does need to be tackled, both in real life and in SC2. (That's the basis behind the fundamental laws of the League of Sentient Races in SC3, and probably a similar set of laws behind the Sentient Milieu; a "first do no harm" sort of thing.)
Anyway, you contradict yourself by saying that the Mycon moral system is possibly justifiable but the Ilwrath isn't. Of course it's logically ridiculous to claim that "evil is good" and define good and evil that way, but the Ilwrath aren't quite so shallow. I think it's quite possible that the Ilwrath originally had a society that had a quite rigid moral code and then at some point in history reversed it, because it was too wearying for them. They're an exaggeration, of course, like all other SC2 races, but if you don't think strict moral codes create a tendency to rebel against them in service of older instincts, you haven't, say, ever attended Catholic school.
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Oh yes: About the Spathi, I don't think they're actively evil as such. They certainly don't have any opportunity to be, and much of the humor comes from that. But they're definitely amoral to an extreme degree. Their extreme cowardice comes from their being basically extreme materialists -- they don't believe in any kind of transcendence, either a literal afterlife or in things that one ought to be willing to die for. As Fwiffo demonstrates, the only things they want are basically plentiful food, pleasant climates, scenic vistas and the company of attractive nubiles. And, of course, as much time to enjoy all this in as possible. So while their nature makes them fearful of confrontation to such a degree that I doubt it'd cross their minds to actively raid and conquer for their own benefit, they are quite likely to screw over other people in their quest for safety and prosperity if they don't have to look their opponents in the face to do this. They ain't nice guys.
Most obvious is their decision to flee inside their little slave shield while the rest of the New Alliance is fighting desperately for their lives. More disturbing are hints of other baggage they've had over the years, like the incident the Melnorme tell you about with their overeager expansionism -- they don't mind conquering planets if they don't have to fight to do so, and they take plenty of risks with other people's lives in the process... "much to the Algolites' sincere and short-lived regret".
Interesting point people haven't brought up yet: What about the Melnorme? They're like the benign counterpart to the Druuge, yet they use the language of capitalism to deny responsibility in a similar way to the Druuge and the Spathi. Maybe they have a point that trade is a basic social activity and you can't be responsible for what someone does with your stuff after they buy it, but stuff like the Algolites and the 2148-B probe make me wonder if their own corporate practices need a review... Though I do like to think they do take sides in these conflicts, just choosing to do so from behind the scenes and behind the cloak of commerce. (They are, presumably, selling stuff to *you* and not the Ur-Quan for a reason.)
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jabbrwock
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The Mycon moral system may be just fine for the Mycon. It's horrible for almost anyone who's not a Mycon. Hence it's really hard to explain how the Mycon could be the "real" good guys. The problem of finding a system of good and evil that works best for the most different cultures is a hard one, but it's a problem that does need to be tackled, both in real life and in SC2. (That's the basis behind the fundamental laws of the League of Sentient Races in SC3, and probably a similar set of laws behind the Sentient Milieu; a "first do no harm" sort of thing.)
Anyway, you contradict yourself by saying that the Mycon moral system is possibly justifiable but the Ilwrath isn't. Of course it's logically ridiculous to claim that "evil is good" and define good and evil that way, but the Ilwrath aren't quite so shallow. I think it's quite possible that the Ilwrath originally had a society that had a quite rigid moral code and then at some point in history reversed it, because it was too wearying for them. They're an exaggeration, of course, like all other SC2 races, but if you don't think strict moral codes create a tendency to rebel against them in service of older instincts, you haven't, say, ever attended Catholic school.
They Mycon would want to be treated the way they treat others. The Ilwrath would not want to be treated the way they treat others. The Mycon are thus not being selfish, merely blind. The Ilwrath are being selfish. Since my basic thesis is that selfishness is the true measure of evil, the Mycon are not evil, and the Ilwrath are.
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Are we really sure of that? Presumably the Ilwrath do want to be on the winning end of the wars they fight, but they seem to be almost as masochistic as they are sadistic; they may like giving pain more than getting it, but they rip off their own limbs and mutilate their own bodies and stuff in worship of Dogar and Kazon.
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Bobucles
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([The Melnorme] are, presumably, selling stuff to *you* and not the Ur-Quan for a reason.)
Maybe it's becasue the Kzer-za don't collect biological data, they enslave it?
And the Kohr-Ah certainly don't have any interest in biological data.
Also, if the Melnorme tried to trade, wouldn't they be forced to follow the path of now and forever? Being either enslaved on a planet, or becoming a battle thrall would be... bad for business.
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meep-eep
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More disturbing are hints of other baggage they've had over the years, like the incident the Melnorme tell you about with their overeager expansionism -- they don't mind conquering planets if they don't have to fight to do so, and they take plenty of risks with other people's lives in the process... "much to the Algolites' sincere and short-lived regret".
What makes you think the Spathi went there for expansionistic reasons? I think it's unlikely that their empire would reach that far, and having a remote colony where they would be vulnerable to attack doesn't seem very Spathi-like to me either.
For completeness, this is the dialog in question:
The Spathi once used a similar excuse after an unfortunate incident at their base on Algol IV. They didn't like the climate there so they decided to make `just a few minor, climatic adjustments.'
Their equipment went haywire, they panicked and fled and the entire atmosphere was stripped off the planet much to the native Algolites sincere though short-lived regret.
What makes me wonder is what the Spathi did all the way over at Algol, especially as it's inhabited and right in Druuge Space (though maybe not at that time). It could be that they wanted to set up a remote listening post so they could feel safer. Why pick an inhabited planet for that? Maybe it's the Algolites themselves they want to spy on.
Still, why would the Spathi not use an unmanned listening post? The climatic adjustments they wanted to make suggests the Spathi intended to stay there.
I guess the people that ordered the mission weren't the ones who had to execute it, so fear is not really an issue.
A funny thought: the "native Algolites" may have been Druuge.
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“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
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