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Author Topic: Languages in SC2 (new thread)  (Read 16839 times)
meep-eep
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2004, 06:40:42 am »

1122010221101101111
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2004, 10:02:50 pm »

meep, you are da bomb.

If anyone thinks it would be particularly impossible to get all the way from there to language, there is a thread at sluggy.net where I cross-posted this, and people are working on it. I went a bit further there, too... if desired, I can cross-post it back here.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 12:09:07 am by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2004, 07:46:41 pm »

I would like that......
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2004, 08:36:21 pm »

And i have trouble learning Japanese at school  Shocked Shocked

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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2004, 08:38:10 pm »

My initial post was basically the same as here.
Skipping some silly responses...

Kaintuckee_Bob said:
Quote
One thing I've noticed, and I'm not sure if it is significant, is that the only number in the series which never follows itself is 0.  Therefore, assuming the 0s are spaces or breaks between words, we get the following:

<insert quote of string with all 0s replaced by spaces>

Actually, there's a pattern to the start (right up until the first number with a 3 in it) of an incrementing number of 2s spacing out a binary number which is incrementing in some fashion which (in hex) is 7b3d591e6a2c48.  I ended up with this:


0000 2 (message start)
1222 22
2122 222
1122 2222
2212 22222
1212 222222
2112 2222222
1112 22222222
2221 222222222
1221 2222222222
2121 22222222222
1121 222222222222
2211 2222222222222
1211 22222222222222
2111 222222222222222


he then got confused and I can't even figure out what he said next, and he was speaking English.

Gallifreyan then said:
Quote
I would simply reply with the following code, broadcasted in the same fashion as the first:

<insert original message with trailing 0s removed>22220000000...


I then replied:
Quote
Gallifreyan, that answer is much longer than I was thinking of.

In response, the aliens send
(...000)11220102211011011113(000...)
(...000)12120102122011(000...)


Gallifreyan:
Quote
In response to
<insert my previous message>

I would complete this signal and retransmit it to the source as:

(...000)11220102211011011113(000...)
(...000)1212010212201101112(000...)

How's that? I think I realize my previous mistake.


Pleased by Gallifreyan's progress, I went on to add a lot more.
Quote
(...000)
1111021011220110221132122
0210122201101222312120210
1122011012223
(000...000)
2222021101222322220211021
2232222021101122322220211
0221230000000000000000000
000112201012110211012123
(000...000)
1111010122201102222122232
2221222010122201101222122
2322122112021011212122011
0122111223
(000...000)
3022220220122233022220110
1222330222201022120110121
2322120103022220110121231
1110210302222011021113302
2220220221133022220110221
1330222201012220110121133
0122202203022223302222022
0111133022220213012220110
11223
(000...)


a moment later, I said:
Quote
I would like to point out that if I were to start over I would change certain aspects of the syntax: as I attempt to expand it, I find very little room available, despite the low entropy.

Another thing is, since the aliens are making this up on the spot, you can add syntax of your own, so long as it doesn't contradict theirs.

You could even try to start over again, propose a better system... using a primer string of course.


No one has yet tackled this. Upon my requesting Gallifreyan to explain his logic, he reposted Kaintuckee_Bob's post, followed by:
Quote
By aligning the 2's into pyramid form, we get a conversion system explaining the alien's number system. Also, the column on the left lists the binary numbers 14 down to 0 (this can be seen by changing the 1s to 0s and the 2s to 1s, and then reading the binary numbers from right to left as in 1248). Then, I corresponded these to the natural numbers. So, we get:

0000 (message start)
0111 14 1
1011 13 2
0011 12 3
1101 11 4
0101 10 5
1001 9   6
0001 8   7
1110 7   8
0110 6   9
1010 5   10
0010 4   11
1100 3   12
0100 2   13
1000 1   14
0000 0   15  (This last one can be logically deduced)

I figured out that this might be the aliens' number system, so that the next section of the signal can be deduced as well from a number system.

Next, a series of equations was given (I have returned the "space" 0s back in, and separated the code into their proper "words"):

1111 3
1222 010 1222 0110 2122    3
1222 010 2122 0110 1122    3
1122 010 1222 0110 2212    3
2122 010 2122 0110 2212    3
1112 010 1122 0110 2121    3
1122 010 2211 0110

Translating the sequence 010 to be +, 0110 to be =, and 3 to be an equation separator, and then translating the binary numbers, using the columns above, we get:

1111 3 (equations begin)
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
3 + 1 = 4
2 + 2 = 4
7 + 3 = 10
3 + 12 = Huh(signal ends here)
Thus, I concluded that the aliens wanted the last equation to be completed. After correcting myself (oops!), I translated the last equation as follows:

3 + 12 = 15
0011 + 1100 = 0000
1122 010 2211 0110 1111
1122010221101101111

This last  sequence is the same as the end of the original signal, wih a 1111 tacked onto the end.

I screwed it up first, which is why the second signal corrected me:
(...000)11220102211011011113(000...)
And gave a new equation for me to "try again"
(...000)12120102122011(000...)
This one becomes:
5 + 2 = Huh
The answer, obviously, is 7, which becomes 8, and then 0001, and then 1112. So, I respond with:
(...000)1212010212201101112(000...).

There ay go. Btw, responding with the whole signal (plus the answer) also is good mathematics, because it confirms that we are working upon the same assumptions.


Note that even though he misinterpreted the pyramid slightly, he still figured out the number system and operators. Also note that he wasn't entirely sure that he was correct. This could have been verified if he had asked a question in return and gotten the expected response.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 08:46:08 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2004, 01:02:05 am »

Quote
12120210112201101222

Are you sure this is correct?
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2004, 01:41:13 am »

Quote
302222021301222011011223

Shouldn't that be
3022220210301222011011223
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2004, 01:58:19 am »

(...000)
3102222222222222222222122
1222122222122221212212222
2111212222222212222122212
2112212222222222211112222
2222221121111211222222222
2211222222222222122222122
2222222122121221222222222
2122122222222223
(000...000)
3011110220310222222222222
2222222122122212222222222
1212212222222221222222221
2222222212211221222222222
2211112222222222112111121
1222222222221122222222222
2122222122222222212212122
1222222222212212222222222
3302111022031022222222222
2222222222222222222221222
2222222222221112222222222
2222212222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222
23
(000...)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2004, 01:58:57 am by meep-eep » Logged

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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2004, 08:58:04 pm »

See, Meep-eep is so good at this that he is (correctly) correcting my grammar and arithmetic! Now let me parse that long message...

Hmm... He's definitely not afraid to invent new grammar himself, but that's fair.

response:
(...000)
2121012102122011012123211201210112201102
12232212012102122011021120121011223
(000...000)
3011110220222222222222222212212212221222
2212222121221222221112122222222122221222
1221122122222222222111122222222221121111
2112222222222211222222222222122222122222
2222122121221222222222212212222222222330
2111022022222222222222222221221222122222
2222212122122222222212222222212222222212
2112212222222222211112222222222112111121
1222222222221122222222222212222212222222
2212212122122222222221221222222222233012
1102202222222222222222222222222222222212
2222222222222211122222222222222212222222
2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222222222223302211
0220222222222222222212222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
2222222222222222222222222222223000000302
111012103012110110301211012103022113
(000...)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2004, 10:06:25 pm by Death_999 » Logged
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2004, 10:55:55 am »

Alrighty, I decyphered the first couple messages pretty easily.  I'm proud of that but starting with the first part of Meep-eep's msg...i just can't seem to grasp the pattern involved.  I know i'm probably missing something quite simple but...mind giving a hint?  If don't want to spoil it you can email it to me at miltazar@hotmail.com.  I'm assuming its a number judging from the second part...on the other hand it could be the start of an alphabet...*shrugs*...none of the patterns i've tried have resulted in anything comprehendable. *sigh*


                                                      --Miltazar
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2004, 11:23:54 am »

I missed Death_999's response until now because he modified his existing posting. I was just about to go to bed (7am seems like a good time for that Smiley ), so decoding it and sending a response will have to wait.

I've sent a small hint to Miltazar though through the board's PM system. If anyone else wants a hint, just let me know. Or I could send another encoded message.

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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2004, 07:53:33 pm »

This is mind-boggling....Here is mine.....

                                     0       ()         0
                                   11       ()         11
                                            111                                
                                   11    22222     11
                                   11222222222211
                                         2222222
                                       22  111  22
                                     22     11     22
                                     11      1      11  


Thats supposed to look like a awesome ship made of 1s and 2s.... =/
« Last Edit: August 27, 2004, 07:55:15 pm by Sander » Logged

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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2004, 09:11:16 pm »

That is eerily similar to Meep's recent statement.

BTW, I posit that now that we're throwing pictures around, we've established at least that WE can start up a language. We had not yet jumpstarted into rules of inference, but I'm confident it could be done. Note that I could have started with images, like Arecibo and Meep did, but I wanted to handle this in a numeric way that a computer could handle quickly (thus supporting the idea that primer strings can allow communication to start up quickly even in a first contact situation).

Now, how much shared information did we have that aliens would not necessarily have?

-- A binary number system (would help, but even if you had never encountered it, you could figure it out with enough examples). I posit that any alien species which communicates with flashes of light and uses computers of some sort will at least be aware of binary formats, even if they don't use base 2. Perhaps some form of gray counting, a binary number format which only involves 1 change of bit per increment or decrement, would be used if they have asynchronous computers. However, not being aware of base arithmetic would be a gaping hole. Maybe they fill it by other means which are gaping hole in our understanding.

-- A basic rastering bitmap image format (note, we did not yet rely on orientation)

-- That stars look like what we see when we see stars. It could be that aliens' eyes do not have the same flaws ours do and do not see the beams sticking out. Then the image would be very confusing to them. However, such false beams can be brought about by many kinds of even slight imperfections in lenses. Assuming their eyes use lenses  (a pretty good assumption, since mere collimation requires extreme sensitivity), such imperfections are likely to pop up sufficiently often that they would get the idea.
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2004, 07:26:29 pm »

Maybe some of the species use such things as echolocation?
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Re: Languages in SC2 (new thread)
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2004, 03:13:59 am »

I don't think that you can do easy arithmetics if you use gray codes for your numbers.  That pretty much rules them out for a general purpose number system. So they are bound to have something else.

Orientation of an image can be established with a line on what is to be the bottom side of the image. Beings used to living on a solid planet will probably correctly explain that line as meaning the ground.

I didn't intend the lines to be visual flaws of lenses; I meant to show something radiating from the solid object.
It's a good point that not all beings may be able to naturally detect radiation. But they at least know the concept (they communicated through lights), and they must have noticed certain spatial bodies producing radiation.

As for your last message, you seem to have left out the '31' which I used to signify the start of an image. Was that intentional? And the last image misses one pixel.

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