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Fsi-Dib
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2004, 02:55:59 pm »

*Bleep* Head a splode!

Those are ... insurmountable. I like every ship design (with more details, they actually look like spaceships), especially Supox Blade.

I also like the big mouthed version of Supox. Gives a "Gishy" feeling.

Those Melnormes look dumb though. =P

Utwig looks like an old traditioned samurai. Nothing bad at it, at all.

EDIT: Oh and I would like to see functional Zoq, Fot and Pik. Tongue
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 01:03:57 am by Fsi-Dib » Logged

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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2004, 03:57:16 pm »

Arne: that's odd... I never saw that picture..
But then, I take a look at http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc2/aliens/mycon.shtml where you can CLEARLY see a mycon having no legs, and I don't think that blob under it is a leg or anything like that.
(And sorry for the nitpicking here, Tongue)
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2004, 01:43:34 am »

Mycon are expert gengineers. I expect that they can grow legs and then let them fall off as necessary, depending on whether they need them at a given moment.

Just because the Podship is organic doesn't mean it's entirely self-regulating and self-repairing; it makes sense for there to be little humanoid Mycon that can run around and perform tasks within the ship, while the smart, leader Mycon sits around with a big brain and gives orders.
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2004, 02:04:10 am »

big brain? Big enough to say "Juffo-wup fills my fibers. I grow turgid. Violent Action Ensues." I suppose.
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2004, 03:00:58 am »

Can anyone tell me where that picture with the Mycon with legs came from? Isn't it just fan-art?

And I agree that the new pictures look great. But while I acknowledge an artists right to reinterpret "official" material, I don't think inconsistency should be put forward as a reason. All the material I've seen has been pretty consistent, except for this Mycon (if it is "official").

« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 03:09:13 am by meep-eep » Logged

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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2004, 04:28:12 am »

The Mycon image might be SC1 manual art?

There's a lot of inconsistancies. It seems like they loaned a lot of designs from StarTrek and more or less combined with some funny creature drawings they made during a coffe break (It worked quite well though, hehe). Then they got another artist to do some more art and s/he made some guesses where the source art was unclear. I know how it is, because I'm a freelance artist. Sometimes the client goes 'nonono, the Githyanki has curved sword blades' and sometimes it just slips by with an 'ok, It'll have to do, we're running it in the presses in 5 hrs'.


Examples of inconsitancies:

Generally when species are related, they share the same structure, but the proportions change. The Pkunk has hair whilst the Yehat has a knob. The Yehat's eyes are glowing whilst the pkunk has a normal iris. The Yehat has a trunk-like skin beak whist the Pkunk seem to have a hard bird beak almost.
They do share the collar and basic anatomy though, the Pkunk dropped the wing skin and wasp pattern. That's what I'm gonna go on. I'll just make the Pkunk a parrot version of the Yehat.

The Yehat's knob has different colors on the cockpit images, and the cockpits doesn't match.

I could imagine the Yehat ship design playing more on 'bat wing'. Overall I don't think the ships match the species. I'd expect a frog species to invent a ship like Zow-Fot-Pik's for example. Now it seems like they just drew some ships and almost randomly gave them to the different species.

The finger joints on the Yehats are placed differently on the two cockpit Yehats.


The Shofixi cockpit is curved, but the ship is wedge shaped with hard angles.

The Shofixi cockpit images doesn't match.

Judging from the ship pics, there's very little rear view, unlike what the cockpit suggests.

The shofixi could look more speedy-fighter-samurai-kamikaze like, since that's their role.


The Syreen on the large cockpit image looks like a space princess, whilst the one on the little image looks more like a 'dancer', if you know what I mean.

The Syreens are either white, cyan or blue, judging from the pics. Different clothing style on all the pics aswell.

---

That's just 3 races.

However, now it is as it is. People got used to the designs. If I was doing an official sequel I might be more respectful, but I'm more like doing a... parallell universe version.
I still want people to recognize the designs though. Hearing your input is very interesting, so keep the nitpicking coming!

I think as long as I don't do what SC3 did to the Syreens I'm safe no? Grin


I'm doing this for myself. It's highly unlikely that I finish anything, so those who have asked for permission to use 'my' designs or my art, I can't really answer that yet.

Would be cool to make some intro slideshow pics though, as someone suggested.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 04:48:51 am by Arne » Logged
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2004, 06:09:48 am »

Ok, there are some inconsistencies, but they are rather small. I think what you did with the Syreen ship or the ZFP is a much bigger change.
Though there are bound to be several variants of ships around, so variations in ships are not that big a deal. Variations on alien physiology are.
Also, even with related species there can be a lot of differences. With some Earth species there's even a huge difference between the male and the female variants. Especially when you concider that the Pkunk and Yehat have been in different environments for a very long time, I think the differences are very defendable.

I don't think a ship should necessarilly have to match the appearance or the character of the species. Just like with human technology, a ship with a very specific purpose (like a fighter ship) will be designed with that purpose as the prime concern. Exterior appearance will be of minor importance (unless (part of) the purpose is its apppearance, like with a cruise ship, or space hotel).

I have a .pdf file of the SC1 manual (from http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/files/sc1.shtml I think). Unless the paper manual is significantly different, that Mycon is not from the SC1 manual.

As for SC3... what SC3? Smiley

A slide show would be nice. Just like with the music, there could be a separate pack with updated slides. Just a single replaced slide would not work, as it would have to fit in with the others.
Slightly related, I personally think it would be nice to have a "group photo" with all the (friendly?) species on it. The Spathi of course in the back, with its eye peeking out behind someone else.

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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2004, 06:44:38 am »

Quote
I have a .pdf file of the SC1 manual (from http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/files/sc1.shtml I think). Unless the paper manual is significantly different, that Mycon is not from the SC1 manual.


Actually, I do have the original manual for SC1 (Amiga Version) and the Mycon art peice in question is indeed there.

The linked pdf file on PNF is also alot different than the actual manual that I have. It does contain the original text from the SC1 manual, but all the artwork there was used from SC2. I'm not sure if the pdf file was a fan-made one or a different, more recent version of my own.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 06:45:41 am by funkmunkey » Logged
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2004, 07:33:47 am »

Yes, of course, if you think about it logically then a space traveling jellyfish might use a bulky grey ship that looks pretty much like all spaceships. Maybe plausible to assume that combat spaceships would be optimized to a certain primitive shape, and take advantage of weapons that fire very rapid or lightspeed shizzle nizzle.

...but it wouldn't be very interesting if all species flies around in silver orbs or wedges shooting instant lasers would it?

Of course humans can't fly around in pink skinned humanoid looking ships, but that's because we are humans and know our own architecture pretty well. When it comes to aliens, I think they have to be a lot more clear on what they are, more stereotyphical and playing on preconceptions.
SC does this a lot, the crazy species look crazy (wobbly eye Spathi), the foul ones look foul (pig Druuge) etc. It's about taking something from our world that we know what it stands for and paraphrase it. Of course it's allowed to surprise the audience with designs that aren't what they seem, but it's only effective if you do it once or twice.
Otherwise it might be hard to 'read' the game. I think (particulary in 2D) the game elements should be symbols that quicky can be associated with something, and not plausible designs. That's why I work mainly with silhuettes and color for the ships.

My grudge against the Yehat and Pkunk difference is that there's too may differences. Sure, earth species can vary a lot, but they're just changing details that are already there, not removing one detail and add another that belongs to a different order. Is it likely that the Pkunk would drop the whole solid glowing eye construction and develop a completely new eye system with a pupil? It might be that the Yehats actually has a pupil that's very expanded and a retina that is glowing, but I think it's important to use obvious visual indications rather than long hidden explainations that's up to the viewer to guess.

A group photo is a great idea!
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2004, 11:45:33 am »

Quote
big brain? Big enough to say "Juffo-wup fills my fibers. I grow turgid. Violent Action Ensues." I suppose.


Even if his thought processes don't always make sense to us, his brain does contain memories from thousands of ancestors dating back to the days of the Precursors (or whoever the Mycon's creators were). Gotta give props for that.

Quote
Can anyone tell me where that picture with the Mycon with legs came from? Isn't it just fan-art?


Nope, it's SC1 manual art. And the Mycon on the combat screen, while they don't have visible legs, are much more humanoid-looking with spindly torsos and arms, compared to the big bulky brain-thing in the comm screen. It's usually obvious that the combat screen aliens are based on the older, more stereotypical-looking conception of the aliens while the comm screens have the most "evolved" and interesting look for the aliens.

Quote
I could imagine the Yehat ship design playing more on 'bat wing'. Overall I don't think the ships match the species. I'd expect a frog species to invent a ship like Zow-Fot-Pik's for example. Now it seems like they just drew some ships and almost randomly gave them to the different species.


The ZFP always seemed frog-like to me, at least the middle guy and right guy. But I really disagree that for it to make sense for a race to have a "tongue" weapon that must be because the race has a natural extending tongue that they catch food with. (Anyway, a better analogue to a frog would be a tongue that reached out and reeled enemy ships in, not that did direct damage to them.) As you say, we don't fly around in pink fleshy ships, and we don't fire rockets because our bodies naturally fire rockets.

I think you *can* pick a middle path between saying froglike aliens have to have froglike ships -- you can make a ship design that's a realistic, mechanical design for a ship that doesn't *directly* reflect a species' actual appearance, but reflects the state of their technology, their culture and their personality. The Spathi Eluder doesn't have to look like a real Spathi -- it just has to play into the Spathi's apparent love of bright color and their intense, irrational agoraphobia and paranoia, leading to a ship made of interconnected cramped little chambers. The ZFP are basically a weak race that's not too good at getting things done, so it makes sense that their ship is a kind of rickety bucket of bolts with a rather impractical design for a main weapon -- some sort of laser or ram that doesn't go very far. (Making a ship that was actually a tribute to their own physiology would probably be too advanced for the ZFP, and would probably also be impossible given that all three of them look pretty different.) The Melnorme Traders should be big and bulky to carry lots of cargo, and have an exotic, weird weapon system. And so on.

Quote
Ok, there are some inconsistencies, but they are rather small. I think what you did with the Syreen ship or the ZFP is a much bigger change.
Though there are bound to be several variants of ships around, so variations in ships are not that big a deal. Variations on alien physiology are.
Also, even with related species there can be a lot of differences. With some Earth species there's even a huge difference between the male and the female variants. Especially when you concider that the Pkunk and Yehat have been in different environments for a very long time, I think the differences are very defendable.


Nuh-uh. Not in historical time. The difference between us and other hominids is something that developed over millions of years, thousands of times the age of our oldest recorded history. I highly doubt that the Pkunk split off so long ago from the Yehat that evolution had time to make all of the rather significant changes we see, given that they remember when the exile happened in historical time, remember the name of the first Pkunk, and so on Biologists do consider things like a radically differently shaped skull or a differently structured eye to be significant changes, things for which the genes won't magically appear overnight. The differences between human males and females are many, many times older than our history, but even then the differences are in scale and in development of secondary structures -- human males are *not* as hugely different in the basic shape of their bones as Pkunk seem to be from Yehat. Nor do they have a dramatically different eye structure, something else that signifies a pretty big gulf between species.

Either Pkunk and Yehat were originally different subspecies from the beginning (and there are signs that the Pkunk are the descendants of some kind of servant caste among the Yehat) or else the Pkunk's changes are the result of supernatural mutation from their contact with divine forces (very in character for the Pkunk).
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2004, 01:08:20 pm »

 
Quote
I think you *can* pick a middle path between saying froglike aliens have to have froglike ships -- you can make a ship design that's a realistic, mechanical design for a ship that doesn't *directly* reflect a species' actual appearance, but reflects the state of their technology, their culture and their personality. The Spathi Eluder doesn't have to look like a real Spathi -- it just has to play into the Spathi's apparent love of bright color and their intense, irrational agoraphobia and paranoia, leading to a ship made of interconnected cramped little chambers. The ZFP are basically a weak race that's not too good at getting things done, so it makes sense that their ship is a kind of rickety bucket of bolts with a rather impractical design for a main weapon -- some sort of laser or ram that doesn't go very far. (Making a ship that was actually a tribute to their own physiology would probably be too advanced for the ZFP, and would probably also be impossible given that all three of them look pretty different.) The Melnorme Traders should be big and bulky to carry lots of cargo, and have an exotic, weird weapon system. And so on.


The ZFP, in my view, seem to be pretty primative when it comes to space travel and it doesn't seem as if they've had much assistance from other races over the years.  Hence their ship is weak.  Their "tongue" is merely a tube that attempts to drill into the other ship's hull and fill it with some hot plasma, most likely a byproduct of the engines/reactor.

The Spathi ship does have bright colors.  This may be due to their like of bright colors or possibly even a primative defense mechanism.  They believe that hostiles will automatically target the brighter colors of the ship rather than the central sphere.
Also, I believe I have read that the parts extending off of the central sphere are mainly used as decoys of sorts.  They hope enemy fire will hit those spheres rather than the center mass.

I do definately agree with your assessment of the Melnrome Trader vessel.  Heck, their weapons could even be designed after the Rainbow worlds.  Maybe they've discovered a way to utilize the worlds themselves as some sort of energy source.  That would explain their interest as well as their seemingly exotic weapon.

On the subject of the Earthling Cruiser, it's brought up that it's too Star Trek-like.  Well, if Star Trek still exists by that time, why WOULDN'T they make their ships similar to that?  Generations would have grown up thinking that's what starships should look like.  Makes sense, no?

Weapons are also dependant on a designer's mindset and the technology available.  Earth had a crapload of Nukes and leftover missile interception lasers.  They installed them on their ships.  The Human mindset is also that if you fire a laser, you can hit them before they hit you.  In some cases, that's true.  The Spathi put more development time in a REAR-firing missile system.  It matches their mental state.  They expected to flee more than fight head to head.

I'd try to go into more depth...  But tired.  lol
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2004, 02:21:10 pm »

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Nuh-uh. Not in historical time. The difference between us and other hominids is something that developed over millions of years, thousands of times the age of our oldest recorded history. I highly doubt that the Pkunk split off so long ago from the Yehat that evolution had time to make all of the rather significant changes we see, given that they remember when the exile happened in historical time, remember the name of the first Pkunk, and so on

I wouldn't put it beyond the Pkunk to have acquired ancient knowledge through supernatural means (memories from previous incarnations?). But further research shows some more convincing support for your claim: "To be more specific, we are an off-shoot of the Yehat species
-- a peaceful, empathic off-shoot! -- which fractured from the Yehat race early in its Space Age."
Point for you.

Quote
Biologists do consider things like a radically differently shaped skull or a differently structured eye to be significant changes, things for which the genes won't magically appear overnight.

There's another genetic trick that could features things like this. Genes can become inactive and remain inactive for a very long time, and resurface many generations later, because of some random mutation.
Perhaps these traits were already present in the genetic structure of the species from an earlier age.

Quote
Either Pkunk and Yehat were originally different subspecies from the beginning (and there are signs that the Pkunk are the descendants of some kind of servant caste among the Yehat) or else the Pkunk's changes are the result of supernatural mutation from their contact with divine forces (very in character for the Pkunk).

Or artificial mutation...

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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2004, 03:06:54 pm »

Very nice work, I'd honestly like to see you try your hand at a Yehat. So far most of your work is very pleasing, except for the ZFP, the eye guy must have but a single eye only, Smiley

With regards to the ZFP spaceship design though, it highly resembles an insect. It's design is very insect like, it's weapons are also very insect like. Even it's accuracy is insect like (insects can do amazing stuff, but fumble on accuracy). I'd say that the ZFP based their ship design on the insects native to their planet.

This could only mean one thing. FRUNGY HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH INSECTS!

Yes, it all comes back to frungy in the end Smiley
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2004, 04:30:42 pm »

To clear up the spathi ship-design and decoy projections:
http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc1/spattech.shtml
Move your mouse over the image of the ship..

It's quite easy to know why they did this, though: they imagine an alien would target the CENTER of the thing first, as that is the biggest thing.. The colorisation makes sense, too: If you were to shoot at one of the outer 4 orbs, you would probably shoot at the blue or purple ones, simply because those make you look at them because of their colorisation....

About the Pkunk appearing to be a "newborn" race because they knew the name of the one that said "rup-rup-BGAAAK!": Didn't they also know that you were going to destroy the Sa-Matra? Smiley Makes sense for them to know about the "first pkunk"...
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Re: Fanart designs
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2004, 05:53:42 pm »

This is kinda off topic, but you have to wonder what the Spathi do with all the extra space. Think about it, 30 (I think) can fit in the smallest module, so what does that say about the bigger ones?  Roll Eyes
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