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Topic: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers* (Read 140945 times)
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Kizor (Moosedance!)
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There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.
Though I admit that risking getting into a debate with PsiPhi is madness, I had a thought.
The Arilou are experts in all things dimensions, right?
They are casual users of QuasiSpace, they try to catch *Nggn*, they know of other dimensions, of the Orz and of things that humanity would not want to be seen by (unless those things are the Orz) etcetera etcetera ad nauseam.
The Arilou, who are all of the above, say that there are no more Androsynth. That seems like a pretty conclusive piece of evidence against the survival of the Androsynth to me.
Comments?
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Cyamarin
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Entirely possible. There are a few other possibilities, though--for instance, though they seemed to know after the fact that the Talking Pet was dangerous, they still handed it over to the Umgah without thinking--clearly they don't know EVERYTHING. And while the Arilou ARE experts on other dimensions, I would venture a guess that they're probably lying to you. After all, if we pursue the matter further, we are likely to be "seen".
But on the other hand, it is unlike the Arilou to lie. Usually rather than lying they just say "There is more to know here, but it is dangerous for you to know it, so we will not tell you. Do not seek to find out" and just assume you won't. And moreover, the Arilou are suggesting that the Orz are responsible for the destruction of the Androsynth--"The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them. There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz." While this doesn't say directly that the Orz are responsible, it clearly indicates, or is meant to indicate, that they are involved. I don't think the Arilou are lying--possibly mistaken, but not lying. Anybody else have any ideas?
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Cyamarin
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I don't think the Arilou are the master manipulators you give them credit for. They certainly appear to be trying to convince mankind to trust them, but no one does. Obviously YOU don't. What this suggests is that, unless their ultimate goal is to get mankind NOT to trust them, they're pretty bad at manipulating people. I don't think dishonesty is in their nature. They omit things all the time--there's HUGE amounts of information that they refuse to tell you, but they're always very clear about the fact that they cannot or will not tell you something, because you wouldn't understand or because it would be dangerous for you.
As for the Orz, I think you're probably right. But this could be interpreted several ways. Perhaps the Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth away from the invisible slashers, or are tryingn to *pull* them back from whatever mysterious dimension they're in now.
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Cyamarin
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I respectfully disagree. I've always thought that those vague, hint-like remarks are just...well, OK: Imagine you have a friend who's just playing SC2 for the first time. He asks you something about what happens later in the game, and you want to tell him, but you can't. So instead, you drop a vague, hint-like remark that doesn't really tell him anything, but when he figures it out he'll go "Oh, so <i>that's</i> what he was talking about..." I think the Arilou are the same way. They have some knowledge that you would never understand, or that they cannot share with you, but whatever it is is important to them, and they wish they could share it. So they drop these vague remarks instead, purely because it's hard to keep a secret that big.
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Cyamarin
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You shouldn't read to far into the Arilouleelay comments. They can't be trusted, and they don't know as much as they'd like you to believe.
There's two things odd about your statement. And please, I'm not trying to flame you, insult you, or belittle you in any way. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you meant.
First, it sounds like you're making this statement as though you're more familiar with the situation than I am. I have no doubt that you're very familiar with the situation, but we both played the same game, and it's highly unlikely that one of us got significantly more information about the Arilou than the other.
Second, it sounds like you're really worried about me--that I might trust the Arilou too far, and it might lead me somehow to bodily injury. It's great that you're into the game, but the fact is that the game inentionally leaves the question of whether you can trust the Arilou unanswered.
So maybe you're right. But the question is purely academic, and only an issue of debate because we want it to be. Within the game, it's impossible to tell.
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Cyamarin
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I think they DO do some important stuff. They find the Ur-Quan wreck, locate and rescue the talking pet, and give you four skiffs and a Portal Spawner. The Portal Spawner is always the first thing I go for, too--cruising through hyperspace is slow even at top speed.
What you're suggesting is that the Arilou like you to think they're cool and mystical, but actually aren't that different from us?
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2003, 02:28:17 am by Cyamarin »
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unigolyn
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Okay, now, I don't think the Arilou are that malevolent, and here's one of the reasons why: they give you free access to Quasispace, which gives you free access to their homeworld. Now, wouldn't this be awfully trusting of someone who was actually trying to screw you over? What if someone informs us of their evil intentions, and we proceed to whoop some Arilou ass on their homeworld? My flagship and her fleet can slice through those little skiffs like so much butter.
I don't think they're evil. Arrogantly patronizing, yes. But they're out for our best interests. And of course for theirs, but we're not being bred like cattle for the slaughter.
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Omni-Sama
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While the Arilou do not become close allies with you in either Star Control I or II (I ignore SC3 here, because the Arilou are portrayed as evil, psychic, A.W.O.L. bad guys), they do make their intentions clear. The Arilou would never side with evil sides and just becaues they do not pledge their allegiance to the alliance as other races do, does not mean their loyalty be in question. I believe, and have for some time, that the Arilou can be trusted, and maybe that's because I have always felt the bond the Arilou-Human relationship seems to have. Being young when I first played SC2, I looked to the Arilou for advice since I saw them as all-knowing and wise little flying saucer dudes.
Sometimes I wonder where people get the ideas that the Arilou are bad, or that they aren't to be trusted... they are definately mysterious, and are not willing to reveal their entire life story to you, I think it adds more to their mystical and prominent existence. Human beings are young and reckless, compared to the philosophic and all-knowing Arilou. We should be the ones taking orders from them, but alas that is not their way... they seem to have a fate much better than that. I'm certain that Paul and Fred did not wish for the Arilou to be untrustworthy, I think their mysterious ways add to the appeal which makes the race unique and enjoyable.
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"Even Our House Pets Are Rather Evil." - Ilwrath Captain
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Cyamarin
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Intriguing...I seem to walk the line between NEMT and Omni-Sama. I've always felt that the Arilou were not malevolent, and never meant for anything bad to happen to us. However, it seems like they think they know what's best for us, and I don't think that's true. It's like a parent telling you what to do when you're already 25 years old. What the Arilou think is best for humanity is not necessarily what is best for humanity. Case in point: The slave shield. They were happy, because we were safe. We were miserable, because we were slaves.
So I don't think the Arilou are evil or manipulative. I think they're pompous and arrogant, but I don't think they would intentionally hurt or betray us. The trick is making sure that they're clear on what we want or need. The Arilou might decide that betraying us to the Ur-Quan is best, since it would put us back under a shield...
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Tom Schumm
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For those who haven't read flatland or aren't familiar with it, here's the gist and how it relates to the Orz. (Actually, it's been a long time since I've looked at it, and I've read a number of other lay-person books describing 4 dimensions that always refer back to flatland, so forgive me if I mix a few things up).
Basically, flatland is a story about the life and times of a two dimensional creature (a square). He lives in flatland (a two dimensional universe) and is totally unaware of the existance of any further dimensions. It goes on to discuss what life is like in flatland, the social structure, physiology, etc. dealing with the limitations of only having two dimensions. All the citizens are polygons, with a caste system where the more sides you have the higher up you are. The King is a circle. It's a rather backwards society and all the women are narrow little triangles. Our square is pretty much an average joe.
One day, something happens and our hero is pulled out of flatland into the three dimensional world we live in. The square sees objects with volume and it completely blows his mind. He discovers that flatland is just a big horizontal sheet sitting on a desk in some guy's basement. He discovers the limitations of movement, etc. in flatland. He can see everything and everyone in his whole universe, including their insides. He can see inside homes, inside the palace of the king, inside everything. None of their walls extend in three dimesions (nor does their skin).
He's returned to flatland, but now has the ability to understand three dimensions and move himself in three dimensional ways. He tries to explain all this to his buddies and other people, but they all think he's crazy, and eventually he's captured by the king and his men and imprisoned for having unnatural powers. Of course, they can't keep him captured because he can move about in three dimensions. To escape their cage, he just lifts himself up into our world, moves, and drops back down. To the King and his cronies, it appears as though he just disappeared and reappeared outside of the cage (clearly witchcraft). He can also turn into a mirror image of himself simply by flipping over (which is otherwise impossible for everyone else in flatland). While he's flipping, unless he pulls himself completely out of flatland, he appears to be just a line (in fact, the others would see a thin slice of his insides). He can walk through walls by simply slipping over top of them, which the other flatlanders can't even percieve how to do.
If somebody (a person like you or me) walked up to flatland and tried to interact with it, what would happen? If you stuck your fingers in it it would be like sticking your fingers through the surface of a pool of water. The only things that would appear to the citizens of flatland are cross sections of your fingers - *BUBBLES* in their space. Flatlanders would get a very wrong impression of what you look like, and would be talking to your fingers if you were having a discussion.
The whole thing is an analogy for what a four dimensional universe would be like for us. If we got pulled into four dimensions, we could see the insides of everyone and everything. If we were to turn ourselves around in four dimensions, we would appear to others to turn into a thin two dimensional slice of ourselves and reappear as a mirror image (imagine picking up a right shoe, flipping it around and setting it back down as a left shoe).
Our three dimesional universe would divide the four dimensional into two halves, the same way an infinite two-dimensional plane would divide ours into two halves. Since we don't have a concept for two halves of a four dimensional universe on either side of our universe, the linguistic best fits might be *above* and *below*. A four dimensional creature might be able to *push through* from one side to the other, depending on how dense our universe appeared to them (and it could be different densities in different places). I can certainly stick my hand through the surface of a pool of water, but I'd have a rough time sticking it through the surface of my desk. Since strong gravity wells distort our space-time, they might also make it easier for a four dimensional being to *push through*. If they did push their *fingers* though, they would appear to be *bubbles* or many separate creatures (Orz).
Therefore, our ideas about the way space works seem silly and simplistic to the Orz, and since we don't have a good grasp on the idea of four dimensions, it would seem like they're talking about nonsense all the time.
In this analogy, hyperspace and quasispace would be two more three-dimensional universes lying in parallel to our own. Since quasispace can only be reached from hyperspace, and it's inhabited (at least in part) by the Arilou, I'm assuming it's *above* hyperspace, which in turn is *above* truespace. We can't exactly travel in four dimensions, but using advanced technology, we can push ourselves to these two adjacent universes. Hyperspace is much like our own universe, but the laws of physics are different making it much easier to travel long distances. Since our space is distorted by gravity wells, we it pulls away from hyperspace at these locations (hence, you have to be outside of any nearby solar systems to be able to get there or back).
Quasi-space goes further in that it's distorted and crumpled such that it touches hyperspace in just a handful of locations, and those locations would seem much closer together (again, the laws of physics in a foreign universe would be completely wacked out).
If you have a hard time picturing that, let's go back to flatland and imagine that there was another flat sheet lying on top of flatland - let's call it hyperflatland. It's thousands of years later, so now our square is armed with a spaceship that can take him and others into this other sheet where they can travel to various interesting places. The sheet is really slippery, and everything there seems much more light weight, so they can zip around like crazy. When they've found a place of interest, they just drop back into flatland. Some places in flatland (flatplanets for instance) are really heavy, and bend flatland downward, so they aren't close enough to hyperflatland so we couldn't just use the spaceship to fly inside the king's castle (since it's on a flatplanet orbiting a flatstar).
Suddenly, somebody hovering above hyperflatland gives the square a neat device that lets them take their spaceship to quasiflatland. It's like a piece of paper that's been crumpled up and is sitting on top of hyperflatland. The laws of physics are much different there, one effect being that distances between points seem very small, but correspond to long distances in flatland and hyperflatland.
To sum it up - Orz is a big four-dimensional monster living *below* our universe in one half of a four dimensional universe. At some point, its interests were piqued by the Androsynth because they were playing around with some fancy technology that let them peer outside of our universe. Orz decided to grab them and pull them out of our space (which may or may not have been intentionally malevolent), but that turns out to be both terrifying (imagine seeing the inside of everything - and that's just the start) and dangerous. Even if they survived the process, they aren't in our universe anymore, so they actually (to our perception) don't even exist. Orz continues to poke its fingers through our space the way we might dangle our fingers in a pool. The cross sections of it's fingers that exist in our universe are what we percieve as the Orz.
The Arilou, being much more like us than Orz, are probably mostly three-dimensional creatures with good knowledge of three and four dimensions (and perhaps having a mind that is four dimensional) and are able to move around in four dimensions, probably with somewhat less freedom than Orz. They live *above* our universe. They would be much like the square in flatland after he became enlightened. That would also support the idea that they are humans from the future.
Note, since our universe is actually sorta four dimensional (time and space) though which we have no control over our movement through time, the model is a bit more complicated. Orz and the Arilou probably have access to time travel.
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Tom Schumm
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Oh, and that would also explain the interesting abilities of Arilou ships (no momentum and ability to disappear and reappear at will for example).
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Cyamarin
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Very interesting. I was not familiar with this story, and it sheds new light on the whole discussion.
Here's the question that bothers me--look at the Arilou ships. They appear to have the ability to bounce around Truespace at will, they have no inertia, etc...Now look at the Orz ships. Orz ships are very advanced machines of war, but they're not especially "alien" in any way. There's no bizarre, otherworldly aspect to their technology that we cannot understand. The manual even describes them as physiologically not unusual, saying "they appear to be straightforward gill-breathers."
It seems odd to me that the form the Orz take when pushing through from another dimension just happens to be so...physically comprehensible. Especially if their thought processes are as alien as they seem to be.
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2003, 09:32:22 pm by Cyamarin »
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